User talk:Tirin/archive01

Benefit Society
I want to start a new article on Benefit Society. Here is a definition I'm not quite happy with:


 * An organisation or association formed for mutual aid or insurance to provide for mutual relief.

Benefit societies include labor unions, Friendly Societies, Fraternal organizations, and lodges and orders such as Freemasons and Oddfellows.

Early Medieval Guilds were perhaps the basis for Benefit Societies.

From a guild charter document from 1200:

To become a gildsman,..it was necessary to pay certain initiation fees,..(and to take) an oath of fealty to the fraternity, swearing to observe its laws, to uphold its privileges, not to divulge its counsels, to obey its officers, and not to aid any non-gildsman under cover of the newly-acquired 'freedom.'

The structure of 'brotherhood' is in place, on which Freemasons, 'friendly societies' and 'trade unions' rest. The principles of discipline, conviviality and benevolence which shaped 19th and 20th century 'rites of association' are already in place - an oath, secret signs and knowledge, exclusive regalia marking office and achievement, members' contributions kept in a 'common box', and a sense of exclusiveness based on a line drawn between 'insiders' and 'outsiders', a line drawn by the notion of privilege attaching to the 'freedom' of the craft.

Source Material:

The source material for this view comes from articles by Dr Bob James, an Australian historian who has been researching in the field for the last 20 years: http://www.takver.com/history/benefit/

Particularly important are the articles on Secret Societies and the Labour Movement, The Knights of Labour and their context, and the book length treatise revised in May 2002 ''CRAFT, TRADE OR MYSTERY: Part One - Britain from Gothic Cathedrals to the Tolpuddle Conspirators''.

Origins of unions
I am currently working on updating the Labor Union page to update this section:

Unions not guilds

Unions are sometimes mistakenly thought to be successors to medieval guilds. Although guilds also existed to protect and enhance their members' livelihoods, guilds were groups of self-employed skilled craftsmen who had ownership and control over the materials and tools they needed to produce their goods. Guilds, in other words, were small business associations.

A union, in sharp contrast, is an organisation of hired workers who, generally speaking, own and control only their own ability to labour, not the tools or materials they work on. While industrial era unions could and often did consist of highly skilled factory workers, one of the radical breaks with the past was that unions could be constituted for essentially unskilled workers, even poor agricultural labourers.

with this section:

Origin of unions

There is debate over the origins of unions. Medieval guilds are put forward by some historians as precursors to modern unionism. British labour historians Sidney and Beatrice Webb, have asserted in their History of Trade Unionism (1894) that such a claim rested 'upon no evidence whatsoever.'

A recent historical view puts forward that the origins of trade unions is part of a broader movement of benefit societies, which includes Freemasons, Oddfellows, Friendly Societies and other Fraternal organizations.

Welcome to Wikipedia
Welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay! If you ever need editing help visit How does one edit a page or how to format them visit our manual of style. Experiment at The Sandbox. If you need pointers on how we title pages visit Naming conventions. If you have any other questions about the project then check out Help and FAQ, plus if you can't find your answer there, check The Village pump or The Reference Desk. Utilities is also very useful.

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Good luck, Dmn 11:38, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Cycling at the 2004 Summer Olympics
Thanks for spotting my stupid mistake regarding Ullrich (for some reason I thought he'd got two golds at Sydney)Average Earthman 07:48, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Melbourne
I've noticed you've added a little about Melbourne (by the way, I like your idea of adding articles for the city's bike trails). If you're interested, why not become a member of the WikiProject Melbourne? It's slowed down a bit of late (unfortunately), so any help would be greatly appreciated. TPK 08:59, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Image:Upfield_bike_path_melbourne.jpg
I was hoping to get a better image to put there. Somebody in the WWW 08:54, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wonderful work on Coburg!
G'day Tirin,

Thanks for your excellent work on Coburg, Victoria. You've fleshed a very small stub into an excellent article! Well done!

I feel that the article is so complete that I've removed the stub notice. The current article knocks the socks off that of Blackburn South, which is used as the sample article on WikiProject_Melbourne/Suburbs.

Thanks again for all the great work!

--PJF (talk) 08:12, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image:SydneyFunnelWebSpider.jpg
Hi Tirin, just for your information: I uploaded your picture to the wikimedia commons. Off course your authorship is mentionend. If you like to add some comments, you find the pic at. kind regards --Zinnmann 09:17, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Heritage buildings in Melbourne
I didn't think the name was perfect either but I was just trying to limit the scope of the list a bit - there are thousands of heritage sites on the heritage list. Maybe a better name is major heritage sites in Melbourne - the only problem then is defining what's major or not. Anyway, I just thought the heritage list was a good way of tying these things together, I'm not overly fussed about the name. Andypasto 08:28, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Emma Miller
Thanks for your excellent additions to the Emma Miller article :) --nixie 09:16, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

She's an interesting figure but hardly a major one in Labor Party history, and certainly not the "mother of the ALP." If she is to be named in this section so should dozens of others. You could link to her article from the Australian Labor Party article under "See also." Adam 10:16, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Australian communists
We need an article on Lance Sharkey. Do you have any sources? I could find his Tribune obituary next time I am in a library. Adam 29 June 2005 02:21 (UTC)

Almost certainly I can find some sources tonight.--Takver 29 June 2005 02:39 (UTC)

Adam, try Australian Left Review No 3, June-July 1967 for an obituary on Lance Sharkey for a starting point. Ralph Gibson The fight goes on has several passing references including a photo. Stuart Macintyre's history - The Reds - contains several references. The biography Brian Fitzpatrick: a radical life by Don Watson has detail on the sedition charge in 1949. For original sources and archival collections the best reference is Communism in Australia: a resource bibliography compiled by Beverley Symons - this is a very thorough compilation of original source and reference material, which is where I found the reference to the obit from ALR. The only other source worth checking is the entry in Australian Dictionary of Biography Vol 16.--Takver 29 June 2005 15:30 (UTC)

Parks and gardens
Categories can't be moved to a new name, so I deleted the old category and moved it to the new one with the correct capitalisation. Thanks for pointing it out. --nixie 5 July 2005 01:37 (UTC)

1912 Brisbane General Strike
I just read this page - great work! Hmette 15:03, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Adminship
I've just nominated you for adminship. If you're interested, would you mind accepting the nomination here? Ambi 04:49, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Secondly, I just noticed the Cycling and Sports organisations WikiProjects you created before. I wonder if these would be better as subpages of WikiProject Australian sports - do you think they're distinct enough to need a seperate project? I think we're likely to get more editors if we keep it all together in the one project. Ambi 05:40, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Use of sport-stub tag
Greetings,

You created the article Australian Olympic Committee. Thank you! However, when you created it you tagged it as sport-stub. I believe it is more appropriate to label it as Olympic-stub and have done so. I'd like to politely ask that in the future, prior to stub tagging something, please review WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Stub_types. You may already be aware of that resource; I don't know. I'm not judging you based on the one tag you put on the AOC article. I'm just trying to help keep stub tagging going in the right direction. Thanks! --Durin 18:16, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

master-servant act
From a brief survey of your excellent pages I gather that you may be able to find the text of the Master and Servant Act(1828) or similar (NSW or later Vict law)? Have tried the net of course but no go. Could you point me into the right direction? Any ideas? I would like to do a page on this subject. Lentisco 06:16, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Now thats what I call service! Thanks for page. If you come across the text of the NSW Act would love to know of it. Lentisco 01:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Further to the comment you posted on my user talk page, I note that I did not see any link to Hansard when you added that comparison, and that you added it after I reverted it. This may be an oversight on my part, and if it is, I should be grateful if you could tell me. Cheers. JSIN 10:56, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Tirin- thanks to Greg Donellan (NSW MLC) I have been provided with a copy of the 1902 M & S Act (pre-federal laws). Ideally I would like to enter the text but that will take time as the english is arcane and their are perverse capitalizations and Id like to preserve the original typography as much as possible. Or should I enter a scanned page copy onto Wikipedia? What is best? In the interim do you want scanned copy? Or if you like I could mail you a copy? It would be no problem. Lentisco 01:51, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

scanned act here
Tirin, 1902 Act may accessed here in the form of scanned pages: http://bawbaw.tripod.com/master/front.png

http://bawbaw.tripod.com/master/1.png

http://bawbaw.tripod.com/master/2.png

http://bawbaw.tripod.com/master/3.png

http://bawbaw.tripod.com/master/4.png

http://bawbaw.tripod.com/master/5.png

http://bawbaw.tripod.com/master/6.png

Unfortuately they dont 'link' directly. You have to copy the 'url' into into the address line. At the moment Im still typing the 'text' out. Do what you will with the images. Lentisco 01:42, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

wikisource
Thanks-- I guess it ended up in a good home. Lentisco 06:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Oenone Wood
I added the data for Oenone Wood's cycling palmares to the discussion page for the article. I'm not sure what you want included in the main article. JFPerry 18:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Sara Carrigan
Additionally, I added some cycling Palmares for Sara Carrigan on the discussion page of that article. Again, I'll leave it up to you to decide which items you might want to work into the main article. JFPerry 00:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

History of Brunswick
Hi Tirin. I noticed on the Wikiproject Melbourne talkpage that you're interested in gathering information on the history of Brunswick. I wanted to let you know that I've been compiling some information at User:Cnwb/Brunswick. Cnwb 00:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Great strike of 1917
Thanks Takver. At this stage I am not intending to write an article on the great strike. The conditions imposed on the Waterside Workers Federation after the great strike were an important cause of the Fremantle wharf crisis of 1919, about which I am writing an article. The sources you've passed me will inform the Background section of that article. Snottygobble | Talk 06:44, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Derrimut (Indigenous Australian)
Ive just set up this entry--and I shamelessly lifted most of your text from another page. I think he (Derrimut) should get primacy over the suburb Derrimut--but I am unable to do this. What do you think? Also is there any evidence that he acted as an 'uncle Tom', as it were? I wonder why some individuals resisted whilst others accommadated themselves to Europeans? Any ideas?Lentisco 03:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Meetup in March
I see that you are listed as a participant in the WikiProject Melbourne. If you are a Melbourne resident I would appreciate your views on the suggested Meetup in March. Please give some indication of your interest, or otherwise, in the idea. Even a simple "No thanks" with your user name would be welcome and assist in assessing the level of support for a meetup. Thank you.. Cuddy Wifter 06:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Campdrafting.png
Thanks for uploading Image:Campdrafting.png. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the media on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then you can use GFDL-self to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, please read fair use, and then use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Shyam ( T / C ) 19:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Brisbane Wikiproject
Hi Tirin. I just dropped by to let you know that I am trying to revive the Brisbane WikiProject of which you are a member. You may have recently noticed the suggested list of tasks on the project page. There’s also a new 'recent activity' section on the project talk page. You might like to add to the list any Brisbane related articles that you've been working on recently to encourage others to join in. If you have any comments on how to improve the project, please share them on the project talk page or on my talk page. Thanks. -- Adz|talk 06:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia survey
Hi. I'm doing a survey of Wikipedia editors as part of a class research project. It's quick, anonymous, and the data will be made available to the Wikipedia community later this month. Would you like to take part? More info here. Thanks! Nonplus 00:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Jura Books
Hi, I have created a stub page for Jura Books. I thought you might want to add to the article.  An An  10:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you
Tirin, your work is great and if I had a barnstar I would give it to you! As I can see by reading above, you've been very busy working on many good wikis. Thanks again. Alpheus 03:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll second that thank you! Thanks for adding the photo and information to Australian Inland Mission. Blarneytherinosaur 01:44, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

John Zarb and Camp Sovereignty
Tirin- I have started these pages. Would appreciate any editorial imput you may have on them. Thanks in advance. Lentisco 07:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Excellent addition to page. Do any 'FREE ZARB!' graffitoes exist still? It would make a relevant pic for page. There was one I can remember outside Macleod station--but that was a long long time ago! Lentisco 05:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Conscription in Australia
Very nice 'blood vote' pic. Lentisco 02:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

New Photo Matching Service
Hi there,

I'm contacting you because you listed yourself at Wikipedians/Photographers. You might be interested in a new wikiproject page that lists photographers and articles that need photos by location. The page is located at Photo Matching Service or WP:PMS GabrielF 00:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Is your username from The Dispossessed? Great book :)

Melbourne meetup in planning
Hello, you've indicated that you're interested in future Meetups in Melbourne on this list, so I'm giving you this message to remind you that Melbounre meetup number four is currently in planning. If you haven't already, please go to Meetup/Melbourne to suggest possible dates, times and locations. Thanks --Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 02:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Melbourne meetup
Greetings, person who is listed as being interested in future meetups in Melbourne. The fourth meetup will be held on 18 December, at Lower House in Fed Square (in the Alfred Deaking building, Flinders Street end near the Atrium: map), starting from 7pm. We don't currently have a separate location for discussion beforehand, but there'll be plenty of time to talk wiki over dinner. --bainer (talk) 14:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:Allan Davis050410.jpg)
Thanks for uploading Image:Allan Davis050410.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently specifies that the image is unlicensed for use on Wikipedia and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable under fair use (see our fair use policy).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. MECU ≈ talk 00:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Mountain Biking on Mount Tamalpais
Hello, An article that I created as a part of Wikiproject Cycling called Mountain Biking on Mount Tamalpais, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Mountain Biking on Mount Tamalpais. Thank you, Bob in Las Vegas - uriel8   (talk)  09:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Commons upload request
Hi User:, I notice that you have uploaded two images on Wikipedia and linked that image to Tarcutta. A number of editors are currently attempting to catalogue a full list of images on commons at Towns of the Riverina, New South Wales and your image would be a great addition to that catalogue. If you are willing could you please upload your image to Commons (unless you already have) and then link it to the town page that it relates to? You will need an account at Commons to do this. If you need any help please just ask and I will be happy to assist where I can. -- VS talk...images 07:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Tarcutta
Nice photo of you and Jimbo et al (you look very intense about something he is saying). Thanks for moving Tarcutta images to commons and categorising. I have tagged both of those images for you with the appropriate speedy delete and the image admins will delete soon.-- VS talk 22:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Whoops sorry about where I put this response - still asleep when I opened Wiki this morning.-- VS talk 00:52, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Fifth Melbourne meetup
The fifth meetup of Melbourne Wikipedians is being planned as a breakfast meeting in the city with Jimbo Wales (at a venue to be arranged) on Friday, 27 April 2007.

Jimbo has proposed breakfast as the one real window of opportunity during his tightly scheduled stay in Melbourne. Tbe precise time has to be sorted out with Jimbo, but the arrangements for the equivalent Adelaide meetup a few days before may give a good idea.

Feel free to edit the relevant page in any way that might be helpful. I feel like a bit of an interloper, not having attended previous meetups. If there's anything you can do to help, I'll be grateful. Please think about whether you'll be able to make it, assuming the arrangements are similar to those Adelaide is adopting (i.e. a block of time with people being fairly free to arrive when it suits them). Some indication on the page of your possible participation would be really helpful. Metamagician3000 06:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

A tag has been placed on Barricade Books, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article seems to be blatant advertising which only promotes a company, product, group or service and which would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the general criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 11, as well as the guidelines on spam.

If you can indicate why the subject of this article is not blatant advertising, you may contest the tagging. To do this, please add  on the top of the page and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would help make it encyclopedic, as well as adding any citations from reliable sources to ensure that the article will be verifiable. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. -- VS talk 10:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Takver your comments are well founded and it looks like you have read my message when I was asked what I though of the Barricade Books article. In a nutshell the article was speedy deleted because it was (in the form written) just an advertising link to the bookshop complete with inappropriate spam link in the body.  As you know establishing notability is up to the first and then subsequent editors.  From that perspective saying something is so doesn't make it so - it is only external third party references that are likely to assist.  In the Barricade Books article there were none whatsoever.  I agree of course that not all articles relating to notability are available on the web - but if the Age reported on it then that should be locatable - and alternately the Moreland leader article will still be available to borrow from the publishers. In the past I have taken photographs of those types of things - put my photo on to commons and then linked my referencing to the article (in correct format) and linked the reference note to the picture (for verification).  Trust that helps?-- VS  talk 21:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Noel Counihan
This article does not cite any references in relation to content. I do not dispute that the person existed but unverified content may be removed where suitable third party references are not provided. The current reference that is present is a direct link to the website of the initial editor and breaches WP:V.-- VS talk 22:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Great job on referencing this (sorry been away for a couple of days and would have noted so earlier). Cheers!-- VS talk 09:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject SPAM
Rather than post a canned message on your talk page regarding SPAM I note the following, hopefully in a more personal way. Many of the pages that you have edited contain direct links to your own website either as a SPAM link in the body of the article or as a reference (and sometimes even as the only reference). Whilst I appreciate that you are probably committed to that website's success - entering those links in most if not all cases is a direct conflict of interest. I am going through the process of removing those links and I ask that you not put up any more or return these links. Please will you go to this page if you need further information. Cheers. -- VS talk 03:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou for pointing out that conflct of interest. I don't mind abiding by it henceforth. takver.com is my site and there is a large amount of source material there, some researched and written by myself, but most of it researched and written by others which I host on my site. This includes at least four books (at least one only available by internet) and many pamphlets. I have put in links from wikipedia articles to my own site where the source material was highly relevant. I note that many other editors have also inserted links to my site, and quite possibly they outnumber the links I have inserted. I have no problem in a review of all these links, but I believe such review should be impartial and judged as to their relevancy to each article. I do not think you should undertake this review. Can we perhaps decide on another Australian admin willing to do this? --Takver 08:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Fair question. I do not mind at all who does the review - but I hasten to add I actually have not done a review myself either - except for two or three articles which declare themselves as SPAM because they were presented as links within the body of the article placed not as a reference but as a direct link to your website.
 * For all the others I have set them up - fairly - so that you and others can review the inclusion or otherwise. To see this in action please go to those articles you will see I have as is required temporarily removed the link and then set up a discussion area on the talk page.  In my view if you discuss the addition of references to your site for any given article (in a way that meets WP:SPAM guidelines) then they are free to go in.
 * However IMHO the great majority of your links are problematic in the way that they refer to eg: an author and a book - which is of course fine but rather than giving us an ISBN as the reference your or someone leads us back to your site.
 * I should also add that I have tagged a couple of articles which with respect do not meet inclusion criteria except for the reference to your own page which you added as the initial editor - in other words there are no other references but yours.
 * To conclude I hope that you understand I have no problem with your website at all nor in fact those articles to eg: poets and the like except that they must be referenced to third parties, excluding of your own site except where absolutely such a reference does not display a conflict of interest-- VS talk 07:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * hi, added that one (harford) back as well. least i could do as i contributed to 'your' 'spam' campaign. ben &rArr; bsnowball  09:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No need to shoot the messenger Bsnowball. Link with reasons was provided on Lesbia Harford's page at the link you can help - and was only added acting after discussion with another admin.  In fact, if you consider it for a moment or two (as Tirin seems to have) going through this process adds value to both the article and the reference (if as I assume in good faith) you have returned it after careful consideration of its worth? -- VS  talk 07:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Organized Labour
Hi Takver, I saw that you added your name to the project - so I thought I'd just stop by and say welcome. Let me know if I can help with anything. Cheers.--Bookandcoffee 09:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)