User talk:Traditional unionist/Archives/2007/June

British people
Hello Traiditional unionist!

It seems a debate about the use of nationality and ethnicity has been stirred on the Bernard Manning article talk page (I do beg your pardon!). It is my believe that nationalism is spoiling the integrity of some articles, and have had Union flags and citations removed with no justification. Some are even asserting there is an English nationality!

I would welcome your input on the talk page, as I feel I'm talking to a brick wall. Jhamez84 21:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Ahh, that's a shame - but you've hit the nail on the head! Bernard Manning is Irish descent - and identifies as dual Irish/Jewish, not English! So I'm trying to say that according to everybodys (maybe not even my own) definitions of what is Englishness, and when does somebody become English, we should use British nationality in the nationality field as this is neutral, verifiable and quantifiable.


 * It's like British Asians may be born in England, and have English born parents, but they don't identify as English as they see the English as an ethnic group, but they do identify as British!


 * It's not even a POV matter! It's the law!... anyway, it's becoming a larger debate on the whole issue and thought you may be interested. Do feel free to comment if you change your mind. Jhamez84 22:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry TraditionalUnionist to do this on your page, but Manning did not identify as dual Irish/Jewish. He said he had Irish and Jewish ancestry, that is totally different from saying he had dual Irish/Jewish. We don't even know how far back this ancestry is, it maybe hundreds of years. --UpDown 22:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't stop Americans calling themselves Irish! It's a fact that he was British. Whether he was English or not is subjective, and ultimately only a question that can be answered by the man himself.Traditional unionist 22:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not wish to start debating with you, I just wished to clarify that Manning never said he was Irish/Jewish, he only ever said he had their ancestry. There's a massive difference. --UpDown 22:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi
You can sign your posts by adding ~ at the end of your posting in talk pages.--padraig3uk 16:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

As you know, Im aware of that. I just forgot.Traditional unionist 16:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry I didn't see your reply in the talk page until now, was away from my computers for a while, in your reply you basicaly accept that the RUC only acted if they felt a breach of the peace was likely, so they dealt each occurance differently depending on the circumstances.--padraig3uk 21:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

But it is not a discretionary power. It may be subjective, but discretion is not the same thing, at least in the way your edit portrays.Traditional unionist 21:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * your wording has it as a positive duty dosen't that convey that they have to act in all instances, rather then using their discretion on wether it is likely to cause a breach of the peace or not, in many cases the RUC ignored displays of flags. In the case of the Divis riots the premises where located in a back street in an nationalist area, the RUC ignored it until Ian Paisley decided to lead a mod of Loyalists into the area carrying Union Flags, thus forcing the RUC to act.--padraig3uk 22:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

That's just the point. The mob assembling outside the Divis Street office demanding it be removed made the flag a breach of the peace and thus the Police had to act to remove the flag. The flag had been in the window for two weeks prior to the incident and was left alone.Traditional unionist 12:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * One thing I find odd about the flag and emblem act is that no mention is made of the Ulster Banner, whilst the act provided protection in law for the Union Flag it ignores the Flag of the Northern Ireland government which was adopted the year prior to the act in 1953.--padraig3uk 18:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I have thus far found no mention of that flag in the NI Hansard, It was a Privy Council thing. It was also a very new thing in 1954 that didn't really take hold in the Unionist psyche until the IRA campaign polarized the communities completely. Traditional unionist 18:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Its just strange that no provision was made for in the act. Do you have a link for the NI Hansard site, I seem to have lost the bookmark for it.--padraig3uk 18:26, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Hansard Traditional unionist 19:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)