User talk:Tralala444/Catlick Records

Current issues
I took off the request for move tag since I think it's not ready yet, and replaced with the "multiple issues" tag.

About the references, I can see there are two of them but the article itself lacks inline citations. The second reference (Daegu Pockets) seems to work on Flash so there's no way to link to a certain page, so it'd be helpful if someone specified which page/where the information is. I couldn't find it when skimming.

Companies and organizations, such as record labels, need significant coverage in multiple sources (independent of the article subject) to assert its notability. I don't think what we have now is enough (but I'm not 100% sure).

Are any of the bands or releases notable? If any of them have their own articles on Wikipedia then please wikilink them.

That's it for now, I'll be watching this but it's not ready to be moved into article space now, as it may be deleted. ×××BrightBlackHeaven(talk)××× 16:19, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Response
Hi. Catlick Records has a lot of press for individual bands, but not many references that list the *label* specifically. This act of not mentioning the label in press is typical for news media -- they rarely mention the actual label, just the band featured in the article. Also, just the fact that an American indie label has it's own recording studio, and two physical offices in major music cities (such as Mpls and Seattle), signed bands from Asia and the UK and bands that have toured internationally and played the international festival circuit is notable in itself; none of that is typical for an indie label unaffiliated with a major label.

Several of the bands are indeed notable, but have focused their energy on MySpace, ReverbNation, and other sites that are more traditional for indie bands. I did not want to use Wikipedia site for the label to link to dozens of MySpace or band vanity URLs, to avoid it becoming an article that does not focus on the label, but the bands.

As for the citing itself, I did send an email to the Daegu Pockets editor asking for a more direct link and the article page number, but I have no idea if she will get back to me. Those two references specifically mention the label as well as the bands, which is why I chose them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tralala444 (talk • contribs) 17:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * That makes sense, but then you'll have to prove the notability of the bands, at least a couple of them. Don't any of them have articles here? ×××BrightBlackHeaven(talk)××× 19:41, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Addtl notes
One last thing, I did do a cursory search of other indie labels on Wikipedia and saw many pages devoted to much smaller and younger labels than Catlick Records. For an indie label to have been around continuously since 1987 is a feat in the indie music industry. Catlick bands such as Demise and Dairyland Youth (US) or BabyGravy (UK) or Swingset Committee (Korea/NYC) have all had significant indie success (which must be defined differently than major label success by it's very definition and sociology), by playing with notable bands in their genre, recognized regional or national or even international acts and in forums such as SXSW or Truck Festival. In the *indie music* community, these are indeed notable. Tralala444Tralala444 (talk) 17:44, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * If you could find references for those things then that'd be great. ×××BrightBlackHeaven(talk)××× 19:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Notability and Linking
I just checked Wikipedia's article listing for the band The Afghan Whigs, because the guitarist for the TAW (an internationally renowned band) is also in Moon Maan, a Catlick Records label artist. However, I cannot link that listing's mention of the Moon Maan release to the Catlick Records page until the CR page becomes live. Tralala444 (talk) 19:49, 23 May 2010 (UTC) Tralala444Tralala444 (talk) 19:49, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Festivals like SXSW or Truck features hundreds of bands over several days. Rarely do you find an article that covers every band, only the headlining main stage acts. I think your demands for notability within indie music need to be realistic. Most bands in this genre are covered by non-traditional media such as music blogs and podcasts. I did post additional references to mainstream media coverage.

Also note, Catlick Records' The Spectaculars were nominated for two LA Music Awards. Specifically, the group was up for "Video of the Year" and "Record of the Year.  The Los Angeles Music Awards serves as a launching pad for emerging artists the world-over and is a global event, featuring artists from all genres of music from every continent and were held at the Paramount Theater. However, I could not find print news coverage mentioning all nominees.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tralala444 (talk • contribs) 19:53, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * They're not my demands, please see WP:MUSIC. ×××BrightBlackHeaven(talk)××× 20:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I understand. However, this is a record label, not a single band. Please see I added external links to band websites and additional references to print articles. I have also looked up many indie bands and labels in Wikipedia and find the majority of entries with incomplete listings and references. If you look at the Catlick Records article I have revised repeatedly, you'll find it has substantial references and internal and external links to meet notability criteria. Please be specific to me about what additional information you would like.Tralala444 (talk) 20:51, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Try not to keep implying that the article somehow has to meet my personal demands. I've asked one other editor to look into this, but they seem to be busy. You can try and find someone for a third opinion as well.
 * I just don't see how a record label with no notable bands can meet the criteria. ×××BrightBlackHeaven(talk)××× 17:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

That wasn't my intended implication. I have provided proof demonstrating that the label is notable in the world of indie music, especially in the Midwestern US region and recently expanding to a global indie music market. This type of notability is not as easily provided in an academic manner as a major label. An indie label, by sociological definition, is a self-funded entity and one that purposely does not seek mainstream widespread acceptance of the bands it signs, but generally has a mission to support music and bands at an independent level and targets specific niche genres. Having said that, as I mentioned earlier, it is notable that Catlick has been around since 1987 continuously and has also signed a roster of international bands who have their own regional success, which I have supported with links to festival lineups and mainstream media coverage, including major music festivals, award shows, television and newspaper. It seems the issue of notability you question is because the label bands or fans have not bothered with Wikipedia pages for them, which creates a snake-eating-tail conundrum for me, who just intended to post about the label. It is true I can find dozens of lesser known bands and labels with pages posted on Wikipedia with few or no references certifying their notability, credibility or longevity, so I am confused why this label's page is being withheld for notability issues, which is why I asked for specific feedback about what further proof you require from me, other than perhaps creating Wikipedia pages for the bands as well. The bands have attained levels of regional success, for example: The Spectaculars in Los Angeles, Moon Man in Minneapols/St. Paul, Swingset Committee in Seoul and now in NYC, BabyGravy in the UK, especially Oxford/London.

How can I ask a third party for an opinion? Tralala444 (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC) TralalaTralala444 (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Third opinion Agree with BrightBlackHeaven; if the label doesn't have significant third-party coverage, and few or zero notable bands on it's roster, than I don't see how it possibly meets general WP:Notability or WP:CORP notability. OhNo itsJamie Talk 22:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I am still confused about what sort of criteria you are looking for. Indie bands are generally not covered in mainstream press by the nature of what they do. Do you want music blog post links? I can provide those.Tralala444 (talk) 14:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC) Tralala444Tralala444 (talk) 14:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Plenty of indie bands have articles here; a band doesn't have to have a writeup in Rolling Stone to be considered notable (examples: Tame Impala, Deerhunter, Bear in Heaven, The Alps, etc. etc.). All of these articles meet WP:BIO criteria (e.g., coverage in Pitchfork Media, a writeup in AllMusic or other notable music magazine).  Music blogs rarely meet WP:Reliable sources guidelines unless they have achieved notability themselves. OhNo itsJamie  Talk