User talk:Tryptofish/Archive 33

April, 2017 – August, 2017

The whole thing?
Can be rather traumatic for metathesiophobics. Atsme 📞📧 00:02, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that I don't get the reference, perhaps I'm just a bit slow today. On a maybe-related note, I looked a little while ago at the page-view statistics for this talk page, and, of all things, our recent talk about head transplants caused a spectacular spike in views. Go figure. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * March 24. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I was referencing that you the whole page. Egads!  *lol* Soooo...head transplants caused a spectacular spike in views?  Oh my...that's inching awfully close to a Phineas Gage reference.   I guess there are more folks interested in either getting a new body, or a new head. We've had an editor or two lose their heads at the dramah boards. Atsme 📞📧 00:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh! Yes, I periodically archive the whole thing. (Something ought to consider.) Sure enough, it doesn't stay blank for long! All I could think of was that very old TV commercial for an antacid, where the actor says: "I can't believe I ate the whole thing." Goes to show how old I am! --Tryptofish (talk) 01:11, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * . --Tryptofish (talk) 01:34, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * And...I see that my alter ego, Dr. Shitpot Fry, has made your user page! Woo-hee! --Tryptofish (talk) 01:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Absolutely! The image that follows below it is subject to changing captions. Feel free. Atsme 📞📧 01:42, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * You aroused my curiosity about page stats, so I did a monthly page analysis beginning July 2015 to present. Interesting to see what caused the spikes. Atsme 📞📧 13:41, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Please, whatever you do, do not arouse Atsme. You remember what happened last time.  E Eng  22:28, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I feel like I should make a joke about spikes. Actually, though, very few people find me to be arousing. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:34, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

WP:STUDENTS
Started to post this as a response on WP:ENB, but it's sort of a tangent.

Out of curiosity, are there particular parts of WP:STUDENTS not effectively incorporated into the various training modules/materials the students in the class would already go through? I ask because WP:STUDENTS points to some resources that are, for most students working on enwiki (but not necessarily all, hence it being tricky to change it), out of date and thus potentially confusing. For example, the Dashboard allows instructors to track whether students have gone through the training, but that doesn't apply on the on-wiki training, which is also much less frequently updated. Ambassadors still exist, but on enwiki the program is not very active and it doesn't apply to most courses (who are supported by paid staff). All of this begs the question of "why not just fix it?" I'd be happy to talk more and make recommendations, but as an employee of Wiki Ed I've abstained (and would prefer to continue to abstain) from editing the page directly. Thoughts? --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 22:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much for asking me. Frankly, all I was really doing was to put in a "plug" for that page, and I really had no more agenda than that. I haven't carefully examined the training modules in a long time, but my general impression is that WP:ASSIGN, and here I'm talking about the whole page, not just the section for students, differs more in tone and emphasis than in substance. I don't have any complaints about the training materials. In the other direction, please do correct anything in WP:ASSIGN that is out of date, or out of sync with what Wiki Ed does. Please feel free to edit the page directly (or raise something on the talk page). I don't want anything there that is inaccurate, and I'm sure no one else does either. It's just that my editing attention is very divided, so I haven't checked in a long time. But I'm watchlisting it, so if there is anything about the edits that I have a concern about, I'll communicate with you about it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Following up on this and the thread at Wikipedia talk:Student assignments, I appreciate that it may be a bit confusing. As you're pretty consistently engaged in the happenings of the Education Program, let me know if it would help to set up a phone/Skype/whatnot call sometime to clear things up/answer questions. --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 02:54, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Ryan. I am extremely protective of my privacy. I also prefer to have everything presented transparently on-wiki, lest any of my fan club accuse me of taking part in something sooper-secret and evil, as some of them are predisposed to do. Besides, it's just good to do this sort of thing transparently, and anything you can tell me is likely also to be helpful to other editors who are interested in the topic.


 * I realize that you were simply offering to be helpful, but welcome to my wiki-world. I also accept how you have said that you don't want to edit ASSIGN, and I accept that, of course. But I think what we are dealing with here are instances where it's just matters of objective fact. Please feel free to post here, or better yet, at WT:ASSIGN, about anything that I or anyone else wrote, where we objectively got a fact wrong about WikiEd. Yes, it can be confusing. It's perfectly appropriate to correct factual errors by identifying them on the talk page. There's no overreaching in that. In fact, it's identical to what en-Wiki requests of users who have conflicts of interest. I've only looked quickly at the new fun-fest at WT:ASSIGN, but I think I saw that you already pointed out a few errors that I had made, and I will look at that very carefully and appreciate it very much. Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:14, 12 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Fully understand re: privacy. My life as a volunteer editor has been hopelessly intertwined with academic and other work, so I gave up on wikiprivacy. I do sometimes wish I had kept the accounts entirely separate, but oh well. I find the idea of a phone call a little awkward in the context of Wikipedia myself, but where people are deeply engaged with something and there are several things to be sorted out, it can be efficient. I mainly wanted to sort out any remaining misunderstanding, but it's entirely possible that's either already set or will be in due time via the ongoing discussion there. After the business with the current set of edits is sorted out, I will likely propose some changes. Thanks. No response required. --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 21:15, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

cool ref


History of brain anatomy from antiquity to today. Bad English but super interesting (to me anyway) Jytdog (talk) 03:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's a very good tip, thanks! I'm pinging, whose editing interests are exactly in this topic. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you, interesting for me too! Gcastellanos (talk) 20:45, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Good! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:48, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

A year later, and another surprise...
I feel guilty that I haven't been spending as much time as I should on Commons, not to mention completely overlooking Picture of the Year 2016. Much to my surprise, a fish picture I contributed is in the #25 slot in Round 2, and the only reason I'm mentioning it to you now is because it's 2 slots ahead of a partial nude. I figured a Tryptofish (insert anagram here) would get a rise kick out of that!! !! Atsme 📞📧 21:01, 8 April 2017 (UTC) Ooops. Good thing I returned and happened to proofread. Sometimes colloquialisms are better left unused. 21:14, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks (on both counts!). --Tryptofish (talk) 21:48, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Wow. As always, the selection of candidate images is really breathtaking. I ended up voting for your trunkfish, the gazelles, and the mantis. (I'm a bit inclined to like difficult wildlife shots, and I don't vote for images that were first made available by agencies such as NASA, as amazing as some of those were.) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:26, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * 🤗 TY!! Nature in any environment fascinates me.  Atsme 📞📧 01:25, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Mwah!

 * I appreciate that very much! Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Question about trouting
Ok, I'd like to create. Size to be the same as but with the caption when a trout isn't enough. I'm open to suggestions. Atsme 📞📧 22:34, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, you are of course asking someone who cannot be trouted because they are already a fish, but I think the "self" aspect is critical, because it could be misunderstood as criticism if bestowed upon someone else. Beyond that, I don't have much inspiration, except perhaps tagging it with a . --Tryptofish (talk) 22:41, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Good one! SMirC-beam.svg Atsme 📞📧 23:30, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Ha! Beat ya to it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  20:12, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Brilliant!!! ❤️ I'm impressed (and will use it as needed!!) SMirC-thumbsup.svg Atsme 📞📧 21:27, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
 * My pleasure. I do love a tiny little coding project. I'm giving serious though to making that [cetacean needed] tag as a template, with a stone-cold serious explanation text explaining that the editor who placed it is quite sure that the editor in whose comment it was placed is going to want to use the self whale template once they step away from a bit and think about what they said. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  23:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks all, from the briny deep! --Tryptofish (talk) 00:57, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Things that have evolved beyond sci-fi movies...
Maybe swapping heads isn't so far-fetched after all. Science has successfully grown a fetus in an artificial womb. Next we'll be seeing hybrid clones like Nure-onna, or Diablo, or other strange beings with either a human head or human body grown in artificial wombs. It may create a whole new market for Gwyneth Paltrow to endorse. Atsme 📞📧 23:17, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Those two images: I think I went to high school with them. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 26 April 2017 (UTC)


 * How the f**k did Atsme get my yearbook photo? That's outing, dude. Not cool. ;) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  01:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Inadvertent, . It was on the left of Tryp's graduation photo in his highschool yearbook. Atsme 📞📧 20:14, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
 * And in the future,, please refer to me as DUDETTE to avoid potential gender identity discrimination. Otherwise, I may become steaming mad. Thank you very much. Atsme 📞📧 00:43, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
 * And me as FISHETTE, or maybe FISHSTICK. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:46, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
 * To help eliminate confusion for Tryp's pseudo-pseudonym...simply combine it to read FISHSTICKETTE, and let your imagination run wild. Atsme 📞📧 01:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Dudette and FISHSTICKETTE it is. For the record, I sexually identify as a Koala. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  01:32, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, everyone wants to STICKETTE to me! --Tryptofish (talk) 01:33, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Koala it will be...although for some unknown reason, I was thinking you wood Dayem spellchecker! would have chosen hyena...for nuetrality purposes, of course. SMirC-worry.svg Atsme 📞📧 01:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
 * :) — PaleoNeonate  (talk) — 04:10, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Why is everyone whispering? :) --Tryptofish (talk) 01:05, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * BECAUSE EVERYONE TELLS ME I HAVE A REALLY LOUD VOICE AND I NEED TO MODERATE IT. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  15:50, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, what did you say, ? SMirC-what.svg I couldn't hear you. 🙉🎧 <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 16:42, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh great! I've deafened .... Oh, and for the record, it's Hammer Pants. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  18:02, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Animal Rights Movement page move
Hi Tryptofish, I'm not sure if this is the proper location to address you, but I'd like to bring something to your attention and have your opinion. As the main reason for opposing the capitalization of the Animal Rights Movement, you point out that it is a factionalized movement. I certainly agree, but maintain that it is a "unique entity" nonetheless. The Civil Rights Movement, too, was divided into factions, chiefly due to views on violence. Despite that that movement was composed of factions, it is commonly seen as a proper name. The Animal Rights Movement is a similar case--cleavage among movement actors surrounds disagreement on strategy. Do you see this as a valid comparison? If not, why?Vincentjrankin (talk) 01:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * You know what? If animals want rights so much, why aren't they forming a movement of their own? It seems very paternalistic to impose our values on them.  E Eng  03:45, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Who says they're not? ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  03:51, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Paid shills.  E Eng  04:00, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * And hamsters. Those traitorous rodents... ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  04:32, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Did I read animal movement? Ziplock.jpg I think clean-up is a requirement in most states. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 01:01, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Assigned reading: Plant rights. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:32, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * (From the article) In 2012, a river in New Zealand, including the plants and other organisms contained within its boundaries, was legally declared a person That's it. I'm officially a right-wing conservative global warming denier. Fucking hippies... ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  23:42, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * If corporations are persons and money is speech (in the US), better that it be a river. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:25, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Vincentjrankin, I always welcome questions at my talk page. (But as you see, I have quite a few boisterous talk page watchers. Please don't be offended at any of that.) Alternatively, you could simply have continued the section I started on your talk page, and I am watchlisting there, so I will see it.


 * Now to answer your main question to me. Actually, as of now, there are two other editors in addition to me who see the proposed move the way that I do, and I was, in part, repeating and amplifying upon what the first editor had said about "unique entity". There are no absolute right or wrong answers to the question of whether that particular movement fits the definition of "unique entity". And one could reasonably argue that the Civil Rights Movement, as a whole, was not a "unique entity" either, which is why Wikipedia sets up the pages about it as individual pages defined by country and time period. I suppose a case can be made that ALF and ELF are the same thing and PETA is the public face for them, although there are plenty of reliable sources that say otherwise. But is the Humane Society part of the same single entity? How about spiritual supporters of animal rights, in Asia? And how far back in time would such a single entity go? Was it already the same movement when Jeremy Bentham was alive? As I said in my opposition to the page move, I'm seeing enough differences within the "movement" that I see it as not quite amounting to a "unique entity", and I think that caution leads us to see making it into a proper noun as veering into original research. And I also said that there are WP:NPOV issues in presenting it as a more unified movement than it actually is.


 * In any case, thank you for initiating the RM discussion, rather than continuing to edit war over page moves. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:32, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Review request again
Would you please review Michel Gelobter which I created last night? Jytdog (talk) 17:50, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll try to get to it within a few days. As you may (or may not) have noticed, I've been editing a bit lightly lately, because of limited time. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:35, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Understood, thanks! Jytdog (talk) 02:40, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * FYI, I decided to userify it until after folks review it. User:Jytdog/Michel Gelobter Jytdog (talk) 15:44, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅, and I'll continue to watchlist it for a while. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Possible discussion of interest
Based on your statements in the recent RfA, I don't believe it is canvassing to alert you to this. I have started a discussion related to the DId you know template, specifically, moving it from "Full protection" to "Template protection". Thank you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:50, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for telling me, and it's not a problem at all. I'll take a look right now. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:56, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Warning
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war&#32; according to the reverts you have made on Wikipedia:Student_assignments. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement. Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states: If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Please follow WP:BRD and do not edit war in your preferred version. --David Tornheim (talk) 03:55, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
 * 2) Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.
 * , one revert does not an edit war make (actually, you made two reverts to Tfish's one, so if anyone's edit warring it's you). And given that most or all of the edits were small and focused, and some were clearly improvements, you would have done better to have selectively reverted just those edits you have genuine objections to.  E Eng  04:12, 12 May 2017 (UTC)


 * , you were also warned for exactly this kind of behavior being problematic as part of your GMO topic ban here. Blanket reverts and general reverts with broad "no consensus" edit summaries (actual WP:SQS behvaior) are not helpful and you should really know better at this point rather than falling back into old habits. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:24, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * , ugh! I can't believe you templated a regular, especially Tryp who is not only one of the easiest editors to approach, he's one of the most patient, knowledgeable and fair editors Wikipedia has to offer. 😯 Wishing all involved smooth sailing in getting your issues resolved. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 10:52, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, you can can pretty well bet the farm that anyone who claims that Tryptofish is acting out of line is going to be wrong at best, and usually themselves out of line. <font color ="#0000cc">North8000  (talk) 17:14, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone who has replied, much appreciated! As for me, OOOH, I'M SOOOO SCARED AND FRIGHTENED. I'M SOO AFRAID! WHATEVER WILL BECOME OF ME??? WAHOOO! Yawn. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:18, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Just a note to make clear that another editor, not me, just added that image. I'm a fish, not a cat, and the person who "warned" me is an editor, not an admin. { --Tryptofish (talk) 20:40, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * And a rather spectacular spike in page view statistics for May 12! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: When I added the image, it was only to lighten the situation, not to mock. I realized that it could have been taken otherwise after adding it. David Tornheim is also an experienced editor I admire for his tolerance when commenting at incidents and for his patience when helping new editors. That is one of my favorite images, which I even have on my user page. — Paleo  Neonate  — 05:24, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Paleo, no need to worry about that, no problem. BUT, I demand a re-close!!! It is absolutely untrue that I was trouted! That's impossible! I'm already a fish! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:31, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * If you were trouted, it would doubtless look something like this ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  19:48, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Come to think of it, that image reminds me of the editing process. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:52, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Hah — Paleo  Neonate  — 20:43, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I've sometimes wondered whether the practice of trouting should be reserved for major transgressions, and another method employed for the sort of minor infraction that all Wikipedians commit because it comes with the territory of being human—er, that is, comes with the habitat of being chordate. This would need to involve a smaller fish, of course. My immediate thought was "sardine", but it sounds awkward when used as a verb, and besides, it also is a synonym for sardius, a kind of stone, which could lead to all manner of confusion or even drama. (Compare: "they were stoned for breaking the main page" and "they were stoned when they broke the main page".) "Minnow" seemed like a better choice, but the connotations are just too strong, considering the number of Gen X Americans in the community. And then I thought of "smelt". The fish is appropriately small, the connotations apt (mistakes made in the heat of the moment), and the possibilities for confusion somewhat less sobering, even when mixes up verb tenses: it's hard to take offense at the pronouncement "I smelt you"—at least when it's uttered in cyberspace. Anyway. Just a thought. Rivertorch   <sup style="color:#FF0066;">FIRE <sub style="color:#0066FF;">WATER   21:02, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Which somehow reminds me of Surströmming (I've never tried it however). —  Paleo  Neonate  — 21:08, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I have often smelt something fishy. Alternatively, one could whale on an editor.. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:10, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I would think WP has bigger fish to fry. - when a trout just isn’t enough. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 22:49, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * @Paleo: Me either. And then there's hákarl. Yum...NOT! I was once offered lutefisk but declined.  Rivertorch   <sup style="color:#FF0066;">FIRE <sub style="color:#0066FF;">WATER   22:54, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Barnstar

 * Thanks, that means a lot to me. I was happy to do it. After all, although we all appear to be usernames at a website, underneath it we are all human beings (well, most of us!). --Tryptofish (talk) 19:28, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Stopping by and what do I find?
Thanks so much for helping to resolve MY problems on MRSA. But what is this???? Another editor with a sense of humor? Can it be? I take my humor out on creating articles. My masterpiece = Empathy in chickens, soon to be a FA, no doubt. I am going to opt out of revert notices now, as explained on your user page. I could use a little more peace and quiet. Best Regards,
 * Barbara (WVS) ✐   ✉  23:36, 22 May 2017 (UTC), or in real life, Barbara Page
 * Thanks, and glad I could help. (And to answer your question on the article talk page, I don't follow virology or microbiology much.) And I think we can all use a little more peace and quiet on-wiki. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:39, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Environmental Justice Article
Hi Tryptofish... As I recall, there was an article created in the EJ course that had large but productive discussions on the article talk page and resulted in a policy-compliant article. Do you remember which article that was? If not, any advice who I might ping for an answer? I am thinking of linking it in a modification to your edit-3-in-footnote approach. Thanks. EdChem (talk) 11:06, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I think I also remember that, but I cannot remember the page despite trying hard. I'll ping, who watches here anyway, in case he knows. Otherwise, maybe Ryan would know, or failing that, I guess you could laboriously go through the AN discussion and see if anyone there commented on it or appears to be familiar with it. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
 * User:MelanieN mentioned, at the ANI opened by EJustice, that she and User:TonyBallioni were able to turn the initial work done by students at Environmental policy of the Donald Trump administration into a decent article. Diff. Either one of those two might be aware of others. Jytdog (talk) 23:20, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I really enjoyed working with the students on that one. I did not enjoy having to explain basic academic integrity to the professor to only get responded to something along the lines of "But they go to Berkley, they know not to lift sentences because of Turnitin!" every time I tried to explain our copyright policy. You can look at that article's talk archives, which will of course allow you to draw a judgement for yourself as to the whole situation. I very much got the feeling that the students were caught between a rock and a hard place there and wanted to comply with our policies, but kept pushing for WP:UNDUE weighting of material because they had been told their grades depended on it. Even then, the students were good to work with and I felt bad for them to be in what must have been a difficult situation. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:28, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
 * What Tony said. 0;-D --MelanieN (talk) 23:55, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you to and  for your replies and for working with the students on that article.  EdChem (talk) 22:47, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Global warming...
...and how it effects steaming. If you get a chance, please advise Gwenyth Paltrow of the following important info: I'm in Texas, it's a holiday weekend, the temp feels like 103ºf, and we're serving wilted salad. It's ok to add plenty of salt to the salad according to the newest "scientific" data. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 20:12, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, she and I are close friends. I hope that you don't wilt along with the salad, else we'll have to have you WP:SALTed. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:14, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh my...a fate like Sid the Slug awaits me? Hep!  Hep!  I've fallen and I can't get up!! <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 00:20, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * If so, you should slug back. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:24, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

How much would a 23 ft. fish weigh?
P. gladius, piscivores, about 23 ft. in total length (fork to tip of sword). I'm thinking maybe 4,000 lbs. or in that neighborhood. A great white at 21 feet, weighed approx. 7,100 pounds, but they're bigger bodied. What do you think? <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 03:18, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This is stupid. Fish don't have feet.  E Eng  04:41, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, but they do, and most of the day, too...<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 05:03, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, I have feet (and have probably been called stupid by somebody), but I really have no idea myself. However, through the Wonders of WikipediaTM, we have a page on Chinese paddlefish. And whaddaya know, the "appearance" section says that they maybe can reach 23 feet and 1,100 pounds, so that's your answer. However, reports of them getting that big are apparently dubious, so I'm afraid the little fellas are more like 55 pounds, and endangered to boot. Assuming that you can believe Wikipedia. And as for the foot-care fish, I think I'll pass. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:34, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Self-foot-care? — Paleo  Neonate  - 22:41, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yikes, now I know where the phrase "toe jam" comes from. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:55, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh my - 23 ft long and your guess is that it would weight 55 lbs? Tryp, they're fish, not eels, and they're not made of balsa wood.  Besides, I'm working on the paddlefish articles so referring me to them is kinda like...uhm, advising me to ask the person in the mirror.  Ok, I realize it's Saturday and prolly your day off, so I'll ask a human who is skilled in practical math.  Who am I gonna call? 👻👻  .... <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 23:09, 3 June 2017 (UTC) Uh oh - edit conflict and I may have clicked the wrong button on the new feature. Sorry 'bout that Tryp. 23:12, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm flattered that you would think I'm a reliable source, but I was just quoting the Wikipedia page. Not my guess, just my repeat. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * According to our "sturgeon" article, a 24-foot fish was once caught weighing 3463 lb. But it depends on the type and shape of fish. For instance if we scaled up a large tuna (length 15 ft, mass 1500 lb we would get a somewhat larger mass of $$\bigl(\tfrac{23}{15}\bigr)^3 1500$$, approximately 5400 lb. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:21, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * David, that's a splendid answer, thanks! Psst Atsme, here is the diff of what I think is your most recent edit to that very page: . It already said 25 kilograms then; only later did someone add the "convert" template that reveals that 25 kg = 55 lbs. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:27, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you, David. Tryp, IUCN states: The largest specimen recorded was 7 m in length and weighed over several thousand pounds. There are varying published reports so I was looking for a common sense approach for the sake of accuracy. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 23:34, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, as I said, "Assuming you can believe Wikipedia". The 55 lb weight (which is also marked citation needed, as it happens) refers to average specimens, not the ones that are 20+ feet long. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:38, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Perfect sense, thank you, Tryp. The article and edit I was referring to is here.  I will update the Chinese paddlefish article now that I have the scientific/mathematical  reasoning behind the IUCN report. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 23:45, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Then I guess I'll paddle on outa here! Fini, or fin-y. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:50, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

continuation
Do you know of a resource available to editors who need to look-up the origin of binomial nomenclatures, specifically Psephurus gladius in my case, or does that question exceed the boundaries of your aquariumistic interests? <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 16:40, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * If you go to the Fishbase entry for the species, they have some of that kind of information. The genus name is from Greek for "dark tail", but they don't give etymology for the species name. However, we have a page on Gladius, which reportedly is a Latin word for "sword". The bottom of the Fishbase page has links to a lot of references; I don't know whether they have anything additional about naming. probably knows more about it than I do. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:28, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you and congrats

 * Thanks!! (Not sure if it's diligence or stubbornness on my part, but I'll take it.) You know, the RfC was closed during the time that I was replying to you in that lower thread, and after I saved my edit, I had a WTF moment when I scrolled up and it looked like the RfC had been templated closed. Somehow, I briefly thought that someone had simply collapsed it before the RfC had run its course. But then, of course, I realized the good news (sooner than I had expected it!).


 * I still have some things that I consider left to be done, and I'm weighing whether the community can stomach yet more discussion, or will come after me with pitchforks. { I want to add a paragraph to the outing section, with helpful advice for editors who are victims (as opposed to all the "thou shall not"). I think I'll start by proposing it on the talk page, and only do an RfC if editors want one. And, more on the COI side of things, I'm going to revive the idea of adding a question to the account registration process that can lead interested users to information about the COI and paid editing policies. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:24, 6 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Cheers! — Paleo Neonate  - 03:10, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Be proud, you've earned it
In response to this, I couldn't resist:


 * Looks like it's time for me to archive my talk page again! { --Tryptofish (talk) 21:25, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's time for you to create a museum. 🤣 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atsme (talk • contribs) 22:52, June 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * Or a zoo. When people ask me in real life how I manage to look young, I attribute it to formaldehyde. And, to all my talk page watchers, welcome to Wikipedia, where you can find the repository of human knowledge (insert pun about suppository, or insert suppository about pun). --Tryptofish (talk) 18:30, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The keyword here is insert. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 19:29, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Preserved Fish
Preserved Fish in case you did not know it <abbr title="Smiling face" style="border-bottom: none;"> — Paleo Neonate  - 14:23, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh my. Cite [1] is to something by Pterry.-Roxy the dog. bark 14:33, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
 * And here I was, about to correct the pagename to lower case for "fish"! That's a new one on me, and I love it! (Myself, when people ask me how I manage to look well-preserved at my age, I reply formaldehyde.) Suggestion to talk page participants: see if you can expand it enough to get a DYK, because the hook opportunities are specatacular! --Tryptofish (talk) 16:28, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

The gray beard alt
I was almost convinced that it was humorous vandalism <abbr title="Smiling face" style="border-bottom: none;">. Context for others, if any: and. And thanks for the clear edit summary. Although I'm technically familiar with alt, outside of Wikipedia, it was mostly used to provide a text for browsers which couldn't display images, not to provide a descriptive caption "for the blind". — Paleo Neonate  - 03:04, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the thanks! If you are curious, the WP command-from-on-high on it is at WP:ACCIM. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:30, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Fun templates
Ok, I tweaked the self-whale template MPants made for me so now it looks like. The other template he made for me stays the same. Maybe you should have your own template: Tryptofish slap CHOMP...for when a self-trout just isn't enough... ...but be careful where you grab a Tryptofish. 23:56, 3 July 2017 (UTC) <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 05:37, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm honored to be in such distinguished company! Although from the looks of it, it may just be a Tryptofish chomp, rather than a slap. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:32, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Disclaimer: may leave teeth scratches when used as a melee weapon. — Paleo Neonate  - 00:04, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, all you other editors – you've been duly warned! Happy July 4th, everyone here in the colonies! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:11, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Courtesy notification
Per WP:TPO I really wasn't supposed to do this but didn't think you'd mind. Will submit to ritual flogging and humiliation if necessary for penance. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:04, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Instead, I offer a ritual "big thank you" for correcting my careless error! Many thanks! And I just prod-ed it, for the giggles. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:06, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The thing is, if we overlook the TOU violation (which we can't) the subject probably is notable. This could be an interesting case. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:11, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I looked at the cites and they appear kind of borderline, so I figured it would be worth seeing if someone contests the prod. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:18, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * And, as fast as the speed of wiki-light, there's Articles for deletion/Foundr. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:23, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * And Sockpuppet investigations/Noam Javits. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:26, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmm maybe that COIN would be more appropriate than SPI in this case? — Paleo  Neonate  - 02:48, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Unless the above COI project talk page is redundant with it, that is... — Paleo  Neonate  - 02:51, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've been trying to put out fires since I logged back in a little while ago, partly because an (expletive deleted) checkuser apparently does not want to follow through with the SPI, which I think is, frankly, disgusting. If it hasn't already been posted at COIN, I'd encourage somebody – anybody – to do that before I perhaps get around to it. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:46, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Tryp - I came across a warning banner (while in edit mode) somewhere advising editors of an ongoing scam and can't remember if it was on a project page or what - do you have any idea where it's posted? <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 14:33, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * It's been discussed at WT:COI recently, and I suspect that you are thinking of this: . --Tryptofish (talk) 19:46, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 00:14, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

COIN posting
About this, it isn't clear to me what the odious scam is.... Are you referring to how much they charged? Jytdog (talk) 01:07, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the amount of money and just generally my reaction. You do so much more COI stuff than I do that what seems odious to me may very well be just another case to you, so please don't read more than that into it. I see you have already commented at the CU's talk page, so you have probably seen that I think I found the sockmaster (see also my strangely reverted post about further socks: ). I don't entirely understand what's going on with the CU, but either this gets cleared up with that, or I'll make a new SPI tomorrow. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:35, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Nice work getting the SPI run!  Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 21:13, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the thanks! I've got to say, the way that I was treated by the two checkusers, I'm going to think twice about doing it again. One would think that I was being a pest, instead of trying to help. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:15, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * From my observations, the duty of the checkusers seems to be to protect the community's privacy by avoiding use of the checkuser tool as much as possible. Using it in COI investigations is a touchy matter, probably because it looks like scope creep. That time it paid off pretty well though. Of course, the sockmaster will just register more accounts. Geogene (talk) 01:32, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's right, and the checkusers are correct to do so. I just wish they had been more courteous to me (explaining is more appropriate than denigrating or scolding). (Basically, what happened was that after I agreed with you at WT:HA about the improper nature of a functionary refusing to abide by community consensus, that checkuser has decided that I am his sworn enemy (which if he keeps this up, I will be), and has repeatedly obstructed the process. Then the other checkuser, who actually solved the case, apparently felt that she had to sound stern so as not to undercut the first checkuser. As I said, it sounded like they consider me to be a pest. But anyway, it's time for me to move on.) As for the sockmaster, the blocks include "account creation blocked", so at least that will force them to move to a new IP range. For those following along at home, the completed SPI is at Sockpuppet investigations/Susana Hodge, and there's a list of many of the bad pages at WP:COIN. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Workforce
Hello again. I noticed that you have improved this section in the Creation Museum article, so I just wanted to let you know that this section was also recently added to the Answers in Genesis article, in case you would like to also improve it. Thanks, — Paleo Neonate  - 03:17, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I got interested in the CM page after responding to an RfC a long time ago, but in the interests of not involving myself in even more wiki-disputes, I'm intentionally staying away from other such pages. So please feel free to reproduce any of my brilliant writing { at other pages. Also Jytdog might be able to help with that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:49, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * SMirC-cool.svg <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 00:15, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Historical
Hi, the uncle G proposal for dysopping is already preserved in the archives, thus it is redundant to have a stand alone copy. Also, click 'what links here', and you find almost nothing links there... only 4 things when i started.... one was a list of discussions (big whoop). One was a chat at jimbos page. Then there were two archives of discussions during the proposal rfc process, and I added the link to the archive copy at both of those. So there's no reason to preserve a stand alone excerpt pulled out of hte version archives.... is there? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * oh, nevermind, I see you deleted the tag as I was posting here. thanks; if there is a reason to keep the stand alone copy that I'm not seeing, p[lease add it to the MFD discussion. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:18, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * As it happens, I was self-reverting that edit simultaneously with you posting this message to me! So that tag is already gone. I'm looking over the history to remind myself about whether or not there was a good reason to keep the page, and I'll comment at the MfD as soon as I get my thoughts straight. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:21, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

editing during MFD
Good idea making the thing a sub page. Thanks. I posted concurrence at MFD.

Meanwhile, note the MFD banner at the top of the article "You are welcome to edit this page"

One of the categories I commented out  does not exist . You restored a nonexistent category (it doesn't show as a red link so check edit mode)

One of the categories I commented out was "Wikipedia how-to propsoal". True it was a proposal 7 years ago. The proposal failed. Since it is no longer a proposal I commented that out too. So, you restored the "proposal" category for a 7-year old failed proposal.

The technical thing to do is to change the cats from the original to "Category|Failed proposal", but since two of you are arguing for preservation I was keeping the original text but turning off the wikicode. Please self revert or change the category to something technically correct. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:41, 11 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm very glad that you liked my idea about a sub page compromise. Perhaps we can reach a consensus fairly soon, since it's starting to look like WP:SNOW. Of course one is "welcome to edit this page", but as for "turning off the wikicode", meh, WP:There is no deadline. If perhaps you would be willing to withdraw the MfD early, with consensus to the rename, then I'll be happy to update the categories. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:51, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * For those following along at home, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:'Community de-adminship' - The original Uncle G proposal. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:53, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * sure, what's the procedure to implement that? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:53, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Enclose the discussion in Template:Archive top and Template:Archive bottom. In the top template put a, and then write (and sign) a brief closing statement, saying that you are agreeing to close the discussion, as the proposer, because there seems to be no objection, and that the outcome is keep but rename. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:58, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Done. See diff.   Can you execute the move/rename and update the cats please? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:07, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I am very happy that we (collectively) were able to work things out so amicably. I've taken care of the categories, etc, but I ran into a bug when trying to rename the page. For reasons I cannot understand, it generated an error message that the new name is "blacklisted" (WTF???), and I need to ask an administrator to move it. I'm going to start that request now. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:28, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I've requested the move at WP:RMT. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:39, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Looks good, thanksNewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:52, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * And it's been moved. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:51, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Great thanks, lately I got interested in housekeeping minor stuff like this. Thanks for your help. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:10, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

My aquarium
It's of the saltwater kind. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 13:46, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * That was a very interesting video indeed, thanks. This is the first time I ever heard of a "dumbo octopus". (Sounds like a BLO violation to me: biographies of living octopi.) But remember, even though the ocean is vastly more voluminous than the largest aquarium, fish still use it as their bathroom! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:02, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Well what do you know, Grimpoteuthis. (Try saying that three times fast!) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:05, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * "threats from humans living at depths below 3,000 metres" — Paleo Neonate  - 20:13, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * And I've been threatened by IPs right up here! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * My deepest dive on SCUBA (air, not Trimix) with one other diver was 185 ft. to see what was left of the old ship, Windjammer. Not my cup of tea but I do enjoy sending a mini-rov down to the depths while I sit in the comforts of a NOAA research vessel.  As a diver, I'm more like an aquariumist meaning that I'm liable to spend 2 hrs at 30 ft. (using NITROX) macro-searching a small area of the reef and enjoying every minute of it. My style of diving is why I often dive alone. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 23:35, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * My fantasy vacation would be to go to places like Fiji and Tonga and see some healthy coral reefs firsthand (and while there still are some healthy reefs). I've never learned to dive, but I should. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:41, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Back in the freshwater world, I know someone who went on an expedition down the Amazon and decided one day to dive off the boat and take a swim. He looked around and realized he was in the middle of a shoal of piranha. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:47, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Top 15 but as we already know, dives are rated according to an individual's experiences. As an advanced open water & NITROX instructor for two different certifying agencies (now emeritus), I've logged a few dives. I sought that level of training so I wouldn't drown myself while acquiring u/w footage for PBS broadcast specials, etc.  I dove the Red Sea, Micronesia (Yap & Chuuk State) in the Pacific, Costa Rica's Cocos Island (the Island of the Sharks), the Atlantic, the Gulf side of Florida, the Caribbean (from Mexico's great barrier reef to Grand Turks to the Caymans to Bonaire), the cenotes in Florida and Mexico, and various other locations. My favorite place in the whole world to dive continues to be the Dutch Caribbean (Bonaire's fringing reefs).  Australia's Great Barrier Reef is not on my bucket list, I wouldn't turn down a trip to Fiji, but I'd love a chance to dive Indonesia because of the unique marine life and photo ops. If you're serious about SCUBA (and it really should be a burning passion), find a reputable SSI dive shop and take the long course.  Even better, find a one-on-one NAUI instructor who isn't tethered to a dive shop.  The best place of all, in my opinion, to learn to dive is Mermet Springs in Illinois. SCUBA opens the door to a whole new world. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 01:04, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * That's excellent information, thanks very much! As it happens, the thought of going into any more saltwater has, for today, suddenly become temporarily unappealing. I was awakened at 3AM by the sound of water, and found that a pump in a new saltwater aquarium I am setting up (fortunately no residents in it yet) had burst open and flooded the floor. Not an ideal kind of dive! --Tryptofish (talk) 15:50, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Ugh! Well...make the best of it - grab a mask and snorkel and dive right into cleaning up the mess. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 17:52, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, thanks for the moral support! Having used every towel I own, I'm about to launder every towel I own. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:56, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * It could be worse. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 18:21, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * { --Tryptofish (talk) 18:38, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

How many gallons lost? Where it happens matters, too. The living room, ugh. I'm dealing with the plumber right now and that concerns fresh water issues and mess that I spent yesterday cleaning up. But seeing threads like this make me nervous. I've been wanting to set up a twin 40G breeder stack with the upper 40 being a planted aquascape and the lower 40 as a divided compartment sump filter/invertebrate refugium with shrimp and snails. This exact thing that has happened to you is what worries me...well, I suspect that you have canister filters and I don't have that worked into my design. As someone who has been dealing with mopping and sponging water in the last 24 hours, you have my sympathies. — Berean Hunter   (talk)  20:01, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I estimate about 10 gallons spilled, saltwater. It was actually an inline pump, something broke apart inside of it. And an Eheim, too, so normally very good quality. I never have these problems with freshwater, ever. But saltwater, all the time, mostly because mineral deposition makes for a lot more clogs. I'm setting up a new reef tank, 42 gallons with a 16 gallon sump. I put the sump behind the main tank, on a stand at the same height, which I believe (famous last words) makes for less risk than a sump below. (I would worry about the return pump from the sump to the tank failing, and the sump overflowing, although a carefully designed overflow box might reduce that risk a lot.) Then again, the pump that blew was a return pump as well, and I'm guessing that you aren't planning to plumb the two tanks together. It's appalling how much 10 gallons (lost before I woke up) becomes when it's spread out on the floor. And there are people who live downstairs from me – I left them an abject note offering to reimburse them for any damage, haven't yet heard back. For some reason, this stuff only happens in the middle of the night. I've had multiple problems in the past with protein skimmers, before finding ones that don't need to pressurize the water and therefore don't send it shooting out the top. And my worst memory from the past was before I got the common sense to use a ground-fault interrupter. Electricity and saltwater: what could possibly go wrong? Flames two feet tall: I'm not kidding. Well, it could be worse: . By the way, I love aquascaping in freshwater. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:42, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Your homeowners policy should cover it. With saltwater, you really need to get a crew in there ASAP as I'm sure you already know. I didn't realize you were talking about a tank that big or I wouldn't have been so insensitive to your situation. Poor Tryp...hope Mr. Bean gave you a happy moment nonetheless. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 22:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * No worries, I've had a good night's sleep and am in a good mood now. Actually, I rent an apartment, so it's more a matter of screw my landlord, and the folks downstairs apparently didn't have any issues. (As for bringing in a clean-up crew, coming soon, but I have to finish cycling the tank first.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Have you thought about using submersible return pumps? Since your sump is on the same level then you wouldn't have the same type of problem again and there should be no undesired siphon effect. Of course, you might need a larger sump to accommodate it unless you are willing to sacrifice some of your filter media. Looking at your ratio, 42/16 I don't think I would. I would go for the bigger sump if possible and then use having the 16 as an excuse for justifying your next tank purchase. :) The idea that I'm suggesting is to keep all points of possible breakage submerged within your system so that only the clean return lines are out of the tanks. This also means that if you have fluid check valves or anything else inline in your design that they be submerged as well lest the fittings pop off giving you another flood.


 * I'm glad that you linked the disaster above. I've been contemplating between starfire glass vs. acrylic with clarity and a desire to photograph being chief factors but also because both are usually considered safer than the standard glass tanks. I was thinking that the thick glass afforded more protection but if it comes apart at the seams that won't help. Another pro for acrylic at least at my 40G tank size...seamless. A 650G in acrylic would have welded seams though.


 * My first tanks were 10G & 20G longs with slate bottoms, metal frames and those metal hoods with incandescent lights that burned hot. I still have a couple of those hoods in the garage (hmmm, maybe I can find LED bulbs that fit and use those for something else). In the 20 longs, I had tetra communities as well as a couple of cool water, native tanks. Plants back in those days were usually banana plants, anubias and just a few others...not much else was available. When I began, there was no such thing as filter cartridges. Everyone assembled their own power filters. I was in the hobby for about 15 years. The tanks would continue to be used as hospital tanks for assorted reptiles while volunteering for animal rehab work and then also as seed nurseries for native plants. Aquariums work well for keeping cats away from seedlings. :)


 * Both of you will be far more advanced than I. I don't have any saltwater experience with tanks. I'm making an intentionally slow re-entry into the hobby so that I calculate what I'm doing very carefully and writing out a plan. Planted aquascapes as I'm sure you know take months to prepare and I'm also thoroughly enjoying the study so I don't mind going slow. Still working through books and youtube channels among other things. I already work with plants but had just never moved into aquatic and submerged plants until now. Youtube randomly surfed me to James Findley's channel one day and then I was hooked. I've since read everything Takashi Amano has written and well, it's all quite addictive.

— Berean Hunter   (talk)  14:58, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I just finished watching a three part series on PBS about the Pacific last night., would any of that wonderful filming & photography work have been yours? The worst distraction that I have ever had in my years of working sock cases came after Atsme either filed a case or commented in one. I found her images and got lost in them forgetting all about the case. I recall seeing your comment about having shoeboxes full of images that you plan to upload and I remember very much looking forward to seeing them. I knew that I was viewing professional work but I didn't know how professional until reading your comments above. Top notch professional...damn good.
 * I love the idea of using the tanks to protect the seedlings from the cats! In the past, I've had mixed experiences with submerged pumps in saltwater, because of the salt clogging issues, and it becomes harder to get into them for the inevitable maintenance. And my space limitations make a larger sump not workable (and with three baffles in the sump, you are right that the pumps won't fit). As it happens, the break that occurred sent water shooting straight up into the air, so there would have been spillage even if it had been submerged. (A lovely image, isn't it!) And I was able to limit the water loss to approx 10 gallons by having the incoming tube to the pump only go partway down into the sump, so it stopped spilling once the water level dropped to there. As for glass vs. acrylic, you won't have those problems with glass in the 40-gallon range. The problem with that 650 gallon was a matter of scale, and it was a one-time custom build, or mis-build. If you do go with a seamless design, I suggest avoiding tight curves at the corners, because they become difficult to clean (on the inside) without scratching (and acrylic scratches easier than glass). Slate bottoms, wow! You might find that an aquarium club would want to buy them from you for the historical interest. And yes, Amano's books are splendid. You might be interested in this organization. And I hope your plumbing problems have gotten solved. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm flattered, blushing, and want you to know that you've clearly made a friend for life. SMirC-shy.svg The PBS programs I produced were far more educational than entertaining like what you watched last night.  I produced a series called Exotic & Unusual Species (or something like that) which were also used during station fund drives and included several episodes, each of which took about 1 year or so to complete, were produced at a fraction of the budget afforded episodes for really, really great programs like The Blue Planet, but still managed to make it to the Cannes Film Festival where, after PBS ran the series episodes comprising alligator gar, paddlefish & sturgeon, they were licensed for international distribution in Japan, throughout Europe, and in the UAE.  I'm of the pre-digital dinosaur era 3/4" tape and BetaSP, and had no burning desire to shoot film, although I did entertain the thought after 70mm film was introduced and became the rage at IMAX theaters.  My early focus was on endangered species, riparian issues, & riverine ecosystems, etc.  Unfortunately, by the time I got some of the tape footage digitized, the quality went to hell in a handbasket. I will say that a few of those episodes found their way to YouTube and are still in use today by the occasional ichthyology prof, high school thru higher ed students, and fish biologists.  The fun, entertaining ocean images came after I started working with the Aggressor Fleet (mid-90s or so) - FYI: liveaboard diving is the ultimate experience so add it to your bucket list.  A lot of the ocean footage & images I captured were used in educational kiosks and aquarium displays (I actually dove IN the Tennessee Aquarium) and were licensed as stock footage to other production companies.  I now leave "the gathering" to the much younger, energetic producers/videographers/photogs who think it's fun to be tethered to a rock 70 ft. underwater in a 2-knot current in order to capture footage of giant manta rays hovering overhead too close for comfort.  My dives today consist of leisurely dives at 30-40 ft. on the beautiful fringing reefs of Bonaire where the viz is 100 ft., the water is warm, different shades of blue and there's little to no current but lots of fishes and reef creatures to photograph. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 17:53, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The riparian & riverine ecosystems is right up my alley and you are more likely to find me donning aquasocks and observing lake, pond, creek and river life in the shallows. This would bore others so I usually go alone. I occasionally free dive and snorkel depending on my goals but rarely beyond 20 ft. Although this species of darter is a little to the west of me, we have many other darter species in our NC waterways. The video is a good example of the kind of places where I do my explorations and a close species to others that I enjoy watching. It has been a while but I used to travel east and explore the pocosins and swamps which are abundant with reptiles and amphibians but the native plants are the highlights for me.


 * I explore like this fellow only he is in the some of the waters that I've wanted to explore since I was a kid. He shows where those tetras really come from.

— Berean Hunter   (talk)  19:08, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
 * For a short time in the 90's, I worked for the Hurricane Fleet in the Cherry Grove/North Myrtle Beach area as a non-certified divemaster primarily on board the Southwind but also the Juel II, Westwind & one vessel whose name I can't remember. I worked directly with a well known PADI Dive Instructor that has the exact same name of a famous Confederate general. I didn't live aboard the vessels. When on the Southwind we took up to 15 divers with 1 instructor and 3 divemasters out to a number of wrecks but I was most frequently going to the Governor, the General Sherman and the Jell II. If we booked more than 15 divers, we would have to refit one of the other vessels as 15 was the maximum for the Southwind (which I see is in Lake Erie now). Our article on divemasters seems to be missing bullet points about how I remember the job:
 * Lugs countless tanks from vessels across landings and docks made by sadists who spaced the planking two inches apart so that you will trip. Tank fill station is 85 yards away. Between client tanks and rental tanks, I would be filling about 30 and then lug them back.
 * Check diver's PADI or NAUI card and tank static test expiration dates before filling, etc. You will be doing thousands upon thousands of tank fills. Your arms will grow two inches longer.
 * Will track surface bubbles everywhere as you attempt to track your divers while topside. This will return to you in dreams or nightmares when you sleep at night because of the fear of losing one.
 * There are many of the less glamorous things that I remember but I did indeed enjoy doing the job overall. I also got to be friends with the skipper who let me pilot the Southwind a number of times and I learned quite a bit about maritime navigation from him. Awesome crew...brings back good memories.
 * The Dive Instructor was also a specialist in rescue diving and our dive center was used as a training site for Horry Co. Sheriff's Dept and other emergency responders from departments of many different counties to get their certs. That's an altogether different form of diving and training.
 * Oh, my, darters are among my favorites!! The darter video reminded me of the opening segment for America's Crayfish. There's also a segment in the latter about cavefish and cave crayfish. It was the blackest black I've ever seen, or should I say haven't seen? Isn't it amazing how people with common interests somehow find each other in the vast open oceans of life, or with less embellishment, Wikipedia? Watching the freshwater video you linked to brought back memories. I'm not sure what I would've done had I stumbled upon that aquatic coral snake, but I can assure you that I've become far more cautious in recent years. I attribute the wake-up call to the late Steve Irwin.  I tear-up just thinking about him, and shudder at some of the stupid risks I've taken just to get the shot. I grew up watching Jacques Cousteau films - he was my hero - so it was a privilege to meet and work with his son, Jean-Michel Cousteau, who frequented Bonaire. I also used to watch Sea Hunt but never imagined I'd have a silly teenage crush on Jeff Bridges.  Moving forward...I've always tried to impress upon my SCUBA students that panic is the #1 killer of SCUBA divers - drowning is secondary - so we practiced, practiced, practiced and I drilled, drilled, drilled until "stop-breathe-think" became 2nd nature for them.  I was trained in advanced search & rescue, and thank my lucky stars that in all my years of diving, I've only seen 2 fatalities, both of which were divers outside my group, and prevented far more, but I digress.
 * I can relate to your less glamorous work detail with the Hurricane Fleet, ugh. When I was coming up through the ranks, I somehow managed to escape filling tanks and blending, the latter of which we had to do before the invention of Nitrox systems that could provide 32% O2 Enriched Air Nitrox, on-site, on-demand, using standard air compressors. I think my instructor trainers were concerned I'd blow something up, probably because I'd refer to blending as a "recipe". SMirC-chuckle.svg <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 21:22, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
 * These discussions about darters have gotten me thinking, because they really are lovely fish. Do people keep them in aquariums? Do they require chilling the water? And are they sold commercially? (I know that collecting them from the wild would either be illegal or require some serious licensing.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:51, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Some are protected, Tryp - I found this for you. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 22:02, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:04, 16 July 2017 (UTC)


 * What wonderful talk page participants I have! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Takes one to know one. SMirC-congrats.svg <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 00:21, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Awww... (blushing) --Tryptofish (talk) 00:24, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

COI working group at Wikimania
Wondering if you can make it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:45, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for asking, but no, I'm not going. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Darters
The first spreadsheet listed at this site lists darters starting at record #216 through #254 and maps them to NC specific waterways. Other native tankmates may be chosen by perusing that same list as well as the other spreadsheet about introduced species. The latter considers NC native fish as introduced if they have gotten away from their indigenous waters and into other waters within the state.

Dace, minnows and shiners are good native tankmate candidates if sticking close to a true biotope model aquarium. If I were to get a chiller and keep darters though, I'd also consider White Cloud Mountain minnows which are from China but I think make a good match.

The article provided is a good source but I would question the author's part V. about using a 55 gallon as the ideal size for darters. For more than one reason, I don't think so. One of the breeder footprint tanks, 30/40/65/75 gallon would give more surface area for gas interchange especially considering that a power head would likely be implemented in the design...with the 30 being the most efficient. By the same token, the larger footprint of the breeder tanks gives the darters more space to move since they are basically bottom dwellers. The 12" front-to-back confinement of the 55 gallon isn't exactly easy to aquascape either and the breeders have more space for adding plants. My plant list would veer away from strict biotope but would stay native to the area. Phoenix moss (Fissidens fontanus), Bacopa caroliniana and Cabomba caroliniana are all hearty for cool water. The latter two will be the heavier consumers of nitrates and CO2...they would be the workhorses of filtration. The Phoenix moss grows slowly but can take the current and looks beautiful. Duckweed would work...I don't want it but it would work.

Selecting tankmates might not be too hard but some very careful thought would have to be given about the cleanup crew. The author of the article didn't talk about feeding too much. Who needs assassin snails when you have darters? They will take care of snails. Seems like a good place to dump your extra Malaysian trumpet snails.

I think the colorful darters look better over a dark substrate with dark stone. The colors seem to wash out over pool sand or other light colors. I would love to keep them but that would have to be a down-the-road project after the warm water tanks. If you do keep them, I'd love to hear about it and see photos/videos uploaded to Commons. New footage in strong current (I appreciate the difficulty the camera operator went through). Beautiful darters. — Berean Hunter   (talk)  00:11, 18 July 2017 (UTC)


 * That is wonderful and very thoughtful information, and I appreciate it very much. To some extent, I'm dealing with space limitations, and I will have to give it some thought. As it happens, last night I went to an auction for aquarium fish, and I got some peacock gudgeons, as well as a tomato-red Ancistrus (a color form I've never even heard of before) – all really nice! --Tryptofish (talk) 17:20, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Nice addition. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 17:26, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 18:06, 18 July 2017 (UTC)


 * You two must have very smelly houses.  E Eng  17:36, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
 * In my case, yes, but I'm getting some underarm deodorant very soon. Although the saltwater spill discussed above was in fact a bit nasty. (With a proper bacterial population in an aquarium, often assisted by some carbon filtering, odors are not detectable. That is what takes care of the fish excretions, fishkeeping 101.) --Tryptofish (talk) 18:06, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Restoring Deleted Page
Thanks for your note on Doc James' page. So, what is the "proper editing process" for restoring this page? Can I submit it myself? Do you have the ability to look at the page Bernt Ullmann and see if it "genuinely satisfies the notability guidelines?" If so, can you start the process? TriJenn (talk) 20:34, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for asking me. Unlike Doc James, I'm not an administrator, so it is not possible for me to access the deleted page. What I would suggest is that you ask an administrator – perhaps one of the admins who watch my talk page will respond – to undelete it for the purpose of improving it, and to "userfy" it rather than to put it in "mainspace". That way it would simply be a subpage of your user page, such as User:TriJenn/Draft/Bernt Ullmann, where you have much more freedom to work on it before it gets moved back to being a regular article. Before doing that, please make sure that you read WP:BIO, and that you understand the criteria for notability of a biographical page. When it's in your user space, you can ask other editors to look at it and comment on whether or not it is notable. (There's an alternative approach, using Articles for Creation, but because the page was deleted I recommend against that.) If it needs revision, then make those revisions before moving it. If you get feedback that the page cannot be notable, and that feedback is consistent with WP:BIO or WP:NOT, then please accept that as being the situation. And if you get some consensus that the page is OK, then have another editor, rather than you, move it from User:TriJenn/Draft/Bernt Ullmann back to Bernt Ullmann. Throughout that process, make sure that nobody else connected in any way with you or who you work for participates in the process, particularly if they fail to disclose their connection or have more than one account per person. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks very much. I'll appreciate your instructions. I didn't create the page in the first place so I hope an admin can undelete it and let me work on it. I think he certainly meets the notability guideline. Flying a little blind here. TriJenn (talk) 00:31, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I didn't know Doc James is an admin, but I'm happy to hear that he is. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants  Tell me all about it.  01:37, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes he is. I remember with a wince that I !voted against him at his RfA (or maybe it was a negatively-leaning neutral, I'm not sure), which was the single worst decision at an RfA that I have ever made. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * It is not appropriate to restore the page in question IMO. If it was created via a business transaction on Upworks the copyright is unclear. User:TriJenn, I assume you are this person's new PR agent? As such you will need to go through WP:AFC and write something new that is well referenced in your own words. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 03:51, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I am just trying to be helpful, and did not want to get into the middle of a drama. Anyone who follows what I have been saying recently about COI/SPI etc. knows perfectly well that that I am no fan of Upworks. But it seems to me that TriJenn is being very transparent about her COI issues and is sincerely trying to do things the right way. As for copyright, sorry, but that is nonsense (and no, I do not want to debate it here: it simply is not true). TriJenn: I suggest now that you simply create that draft from scratch, and follow my previous advice going from there. I no longer think that you will get the deleted version undeleted. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Notification
Pls remember to notify editors named at noticeboard as in. ☆ Bri (talk) 02:53, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅. I hadn't realized this, but now I see the big red notice that I should have seen before. I had been thinking in terms of SPI, where notification is at discretion and frequently inadvisable. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:33, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

For your efforts

 * Well, thanks, although perhaps Sisyphus would be the more accurate reference (although there sure are a lot of crabs). By the way, it looks to me like you are personalizing your disagreements with other editors more than is beneficial. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:36, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I haven't looked into too much of Atsme's back-and-forth at RSN, but on my talk page (where we're disagreeing on the same subject), she's handling herself with perfect composure. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  00:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm primarily concerned about Talk:Jared Taylor. There's no shortage of over-the-top talk by multiple editors there, and I AGF that most of it is hyperbole said in the heat of the argument. I'm simply giving advice to an editor who I believe would benefit from it, and what I said here was rather mild compared to what I could have said. The way things are continuing to go there, I suspect it will end rather badly. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:21, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Where does it say that the editor who called an RfC and/or who is being attacked in the comment section cannot hat those comments? I agree with you in that it will only end badly if the attacks against me continue - it's highly disruptive behavior especially after an RfC has been called to settle the differences and those same editors keep attacking me. I am not the enemy or the advocate at that article - all I've done is recite PAG, and was accused of everything from knowing the BLP to bludgeoning. What about the editors who keep asking the same damn questions over and over again, and making the same fallacious arguments over and over again? Why isn't that bludgeoning? What they're saying is contrary to PAGs and I don't understand how anyone can't see it. I've been down a similar road before where advocates of whatever have claimed ownership of an attack article. Bludgeoning is commonly the excuse they use when they have no valid argument, and insist on IAR to overrule PAGs and the editor who recites them. Sorry, but calling opinions fact doesn't cut it in my book and it certainly doesn't justify saying it in WP voice, that's why I decided to let consensus run its course and decide whether or not we maintain idiocy or quality in our articles. Political advocacies are overwhelming the project which tells me it will be sooner than later that WP will be consumed by COI editing. I've grown weary of editors misunderstanding my intention and attacking me for no good reason. I plan to enjoy the rest of my Sunday - hoping you enjoy what's left of yours. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 21:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The way things are continuing to go there, I suspect it will end rather badly. Seconded. I haven't looked at the article talk page, but in general, Tryp's advice is good stuff. Honestly, as I said at my talk, I'd change my position (that it's not a BLP vio per WP:YESPOV) and support attribution if I thought that would end the drama. Drama is pretty much by definition the bane of productive editing, as any sufficiently broad drama inevitably results in good editors behaving badly. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  13:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)