User talk:Tumadoireacht/Archive 1

May 2010 [edit]

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to Bray Daly Station, did not appear to be constructive and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and read the welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. Thank you. ElationAviation (talk) 08:13, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I am glad that the amended additions have met with your silent approval --Tumadoireacht (talk) 16:19, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

August 2010 [edit]

Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute to the encyclopedia, but when you add or change content, as you did to the article Oldsmobile Toronado, please cite a reliable source for the content of your edit. This helps maintain our policy of verifiability. Take a look at Wikipedia:Citing sources for information about how to cite sources and the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Manway (talk) 00:00, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of previously published material to our articles as you apparently did to Oldsmobile Toronado. Please cite a reliable source for all of your information. Thank you. Manway (talk) 17:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

RESPONSE: Problem is the vehicle you added is a one-off custom not made by the manufacturer. Therefore it is not notable and should not be included in the article. If it was a line made, such as the limousine, different story. Otherwise anyone who customizes a vehicle could have their vehicle listed in the vehicle page. Regards, --Manway (talk) 03:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC) RIPOSTEWhat a boring and shallow editorial policy -two icons of american road design married and readers are denied the reference -true it is a curiosity and a one off but paper never refused ink or whatever the LCD equivalent is. "not notable"-- i must remember that expression. first it must be verifiable and now that the photo verifies it must also be line made. similar articles about sports cars for example have included "one off" designs. I think the policy which you applied here, if it is a policy at all, is narrow and misguided. I urge that it be changed .Tumadoireacht (talk) 04:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC) Please do not add unsourced or original content, as you did with this edit to The Farm (Tennessee). Doing so violates Wikipedia's verifiability policy. If you continue to do so, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. — Jeff G. ツ 03:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I suppose it is of no interest to mention being a part of that event I described -can Wikipedia not create a category to gather and welcome the wealth of knowledge in readers' personal testimony and experience ?--Tumadoireacht (talk) 19:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Wikipedia does not publish original research - that's a core content policy.Autarch (talk) 21:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Maybe it is time to re-examine both the meaning of the term and its application. Why just last week Jesus was reverted for adding an "I was there" two liner to his entry and Nelson Mandela was firmly admonished for doctoring his too?. Maybe an entirely new Wiki needs to be created for first hand account knowledge. Sticky Wicket ? Something Wiki this way comes ?--Tumadoireacht (talk) 04:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC) Given that WP:OR is a core content policy, there's little chance of it changing. Setting up your own wiki - well the MediaWiki software is available for free and there are plenty of hosting services available.Autarch (talk) 12:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC) Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to vandalize Wikipedia, as you did at Goretti Horgan, you may be blocked from editing. Autarch (talk) 12:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Fair cop guv -did ernie squeal ? that was before I turned over a new leaf -I will have to just go parody Goretti on uncyclopedia instead -what do you think of think of my stupendous suggestion about advising all would be humorous editors automatically to take a hike there instead -it would soften the blow of being threatened with gagging ? --Tumadoireacht (talk) 16:54, 27 August 2010 (UTC) Sounds like that kind of editing would be right at home on Uncyclopedia.Autarch (talk) 18:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC) JFK [edit]

Please do not add back the paragraph about bigamy, since it is from a single source, and a tabloid, at that. Please see WP:VERIFIABILITY. --Funandtrvl (talk) 21:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Lots of other 'facts" are single source and why do you despise a tabloid ?--Tumadoireacht (talk) 21:38, 31 October 2010 (UTC) Whether I despise it or not isn't the point here. If you read WP:REDFLAG, it says: "Exceptional claims require high-quality sources. Red flags that should prompt extra caution include: surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources." Because this theory isn't covered by another mainstream newspaper, it is highly dubious. --Funandtrvl (talk) 21:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC) It is highly amusing that the refutation of the bigamy comes from a hearsay verbal recollection of a conversation with an ex CIA newspaper editor pal of JFK who was permitted view only access once to the FBI file about the first marriage-what a solid source !--Tumadoireacht (talk) 07:07, 10 January 2011 (UTC) November 2010 [edit]

Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute to the encyclopedia, but when you add or change content, as you did to the article George Bernard Shaw, please cite a reliable source for the content of your edit. This helps maintain our policy of verifiability. Take a look at Wikipedia:Citing sources for information about how to cite sources and the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. RashersTierney (talk) 21:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You will now find it referenced and also on her own wiki page. Does the cello string round the middle still help? It is the weather now to stay in bed "'til the streets have had a chance to warm themselves up " Cool handle !--Tumadoireacht (talk) 16:05, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

December 2010 [edit]

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to vandalize Wikipedia, as you did at Robert Beck, you may be blocked from editing. Peter.C • talk 11:09, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Suggesting a new Wiki entry and listing a new disambiguation entry hardly constitutes unconstructive,disruptive,or vandalizing action -perhaps you need to step away from the autotext censure button and get some fresh air--Tumadoireacht (talk) 18:35, 7 December 2010 (UTC) References [edit]

Medical articles on Wikipedia must be cited by the best available evidence and written in a consistent format. A list of resources to help edit such articles can be found here. Additionally, the diberri tool will aid in the formatting of references; all one needs to do is cut and paste the results. The welcome page is another good place to learn about editing the encyclopedia. If you have any questions, please feel free to drop me a note. Cheers. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:36, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, adding content without citing a reliable source, as you did with this edit to Robert Beck, is not consistent with our policy of verifiability. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you are familiar with Wikipedia:Citing sources, please take this opportunity to add references to the article. Logan Talk Contributions 03:37, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Warning [edit]

I must warn you that if you don't stop reverting each other's edits on Hill Street Blues you will be blocked for edit warning. Debresser (talk) 09:13, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up -is there any better way of bringing this to a consensual conclusion ?--Tumadoireacht (talk) 09:20, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

January 2011 [edit]

Hello. It appears that you have been canvassing—leaving messages on others' talk pages to notify them of an ongoing community decision, debate, or vote. While friendly notices are allowed, they should be limited and nonpartisan in distribution and should reflect a neutral point of view. Please do not post notices which are indiscriminately cross-posted, which espouse a certain point of view or side of a debate, or which are selectively sent only to those who are believed to hold the same opinion as you. Remember to respect Wikipedia's principle of consensus-building by allowing decisions to reflect the prevailing opinion among the community at large. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:42, 11 January 2011 (UTC

I left two messages on two userpages -one inviting someone who had already been part of the current debacle with an openly inclusionist stance to comment on the reverts/edit war noticeboard and the other asking for thoughts from someone who had fallen foul of drmargi's high handed editing in the past. I suppose you could call the first one canvassing if canvassing to one person is possible. Others do their canvassing by IM or email outside the site. Banning it internally seems a bit futile. I am at a loss as to how to proceed in the now deafening silent debate on my edits. Why did you choose not to apply the 3RR /4RR rule in this instance ? --Tumadoireacht (talk) 20:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Because I chose not to block both of you, which is what would have happened.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:01, 11 January 2011 (UTC) Please do not attack other editors. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Notability/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=407393801 SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:09, 12 January 2011 (UTC

I am as cool as a cucumber and am discussing editor actions that directly affect content and intimidate and deter others, That is not attacking, just as your comment here is not attacking-we are both offering an opinion with a view to a better wikipedia.--Tumadoireacht (talk) 03:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Please do not attack other editors. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hill_Street_Blues&diff=prev&oldid=407459533 SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:30, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I am curious about how you see a description as an attack. A default position of "No" in the face of clear reasons to say "Yes" can reasonably be described as a refusenik position. Financial controllers and departments are notorious for it. Can you be a little more specific ?--Tumadoireacht (talk) 17:46, 12 January 2011 (UTC) I don't have to be more specific, WP:No personal attacks is quite specific enough. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC You don't HAVE to get out of bed in the morning but I have re-read the personal attacks page link you supplied without finding a section that applies. Which section did you have in mind ? --Tumadoireacht (talk) 18:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

"Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets directed against another contributor.... Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence.... Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done. "--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC) Thank you. Describing obstructionist reverts with copious evidence does not fall into any of those categories. The clearest example which I can refer you to in the recent flurry of reverts is the case of the cast list entry for actress Ally Sheedy which I have outlined repeatedly and in fine detail.--Tumadoireacht (talk) 18:19, 12 January 2011 (UTC) Note [edit]

I'm surprised and disappointed at this. That is not the way to criticize Wikipedia. I would strongly urge you to revert it, and take this chance for a reset and a new opportunity in getting your point across. I'm an unbiased observer, willing to listen to you seriously, but if you do things like that, you're not being interested in a serious discussion. henrik•talk 17:54, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I would be interested to read the research that shows that American urban centres all have 10 gangs in this ethnic configuration. How do you see reverting shoddy writing as a criticism of Wikipedia ?--Tumadoireacht (talk) 18:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC) If that had been your point, fine. But that was, very obviously from the edit summary, not your intent. I would urge you to consider what you desire here. Confrontation and proving other editors wrong, or trying to improve articles with your input. If the latter is your goal, please understand that you need to make an effort to communicate clearly and to help contribute to a positive atmosphere. henrik•talk 18:19, 12 January 2011 (UTC) Learning from watching the edit descriptions of other editors, it seems that citing the policy that supports the revert is important. Verifiability was absent, and original research was not. What would have been a better description ?--Tumadoireacht (talk) 18:28, 12 January 2011 (UTC) I can cite policy with the best of them, I prefer not to in many cases because it often hinders communication. Many policies are needlessly verbose, hard to understand and open to endless argumentation. But there's one rule which I actually do like, which can be expressed in just 9 words: 1) Mind NPOV, 2) Don't be a dick, 3) Ignore all rules. Doing to others what you dislike being done to you in a game of tit-for-tat is a pretty clear violation of number two above. henrik•talk 18:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC) Sounds useful as a rule of thumb but i still stand by my "tipping a toe back in the water" edit. I am feeling pretty defensive in the light of recent history and feel that those presently silent might come yelling out of the undergrowth at an edit that was unbacked by chapter and verse. sad but true. life in a universe governed by your nine word mantra would be divine. Aes triplex eventually.--Tumadoireacht (talk) 19:24, 12 January 2011 (UTC) I was being too timid-see what you think of the current revision of this section. The rest of the article badly needs a spring clean too. Listing every blessed cop may be idiotic. Any cultural impact analysis is entirely absent apart from it inspiring other TV shows. Pshaw !--Tumadoireacht (talk) 21:40, 12 January 2011 (UTC) Mozart, cont'd [edit]

Greetings! Continuing from the Mozart talk page (because inevitably some schoolmarmy type will chime in with "WP:NOTFORUM") -- the line your questioner stabs you with -- "well, you just killed Mozart!" is quite unfair since in the 18th century it was quite normal to have only two out of seven children survive infancy. I don't know if the five were actually stillborn -- it's not in the sources I have within arm's reach -- but the parents were both talented, relatively well-off, and Nannerl, the fourth of the seven, survived infancy. (Wolfgang was always very close to his sister.) The other essay, yeech, that's all wrong. Thirteen? Deaf and blind and crippled? lol.... Antandrus (talk) 05:20, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

My Dashboard [edit]

Help yourself; User:Escape_Orbit/dashboard. I got the basis of it off another editor and just built on that. :) --Escape Orbit (Talk) 22:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Request [edit]

Hello again,

Would you please remove the sections of your user page detailing comments and conduct by other editors? They are not conducive to a collegial atmosphere, something which is necessary for this place to function. Making general comments is fine, criticizing Wikipedia and our policies is fine. Making comments on other specific editors or their conduct is not.

Regards, henrik•talk 23:50, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Regards also,

Do you feel that both the first section that names no editors but describes a learning process and references policy germane to it, or the second section that reproduces a vanished dialogue/debate on peremptory reverts fall entirely into the category of non "collegial" or that both do ?

"Classical authors such as Max Weber consider collegiality as an organizational device used by autocrats to prevent experts and professionals from challenging monocratic and sometimes arbitrary powers. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collegiality.

Conversely "This view of collegiality is obviously very different from the ideology of collegiality stressing mainly trust and sharing in the collegium." same source.

and "Collegiality is often contrasted with Managerialism which has a more hierarchical structure, with professional managers in leading positions."

I notice that your responsibilities include an administration function. Am I to take it that you are fulfilling a formal mediator dispute resolution role specifically in relation to the disputed edits and reverts of the article discussed or would that need to be formally applied for?

As an interim gesture of good faith I have removed details of the editor and other identifying details of the disputed page from the debate transcript. Will this be sufficient ?

I think the progression of dodgily referenced reverts, calls for debate accompanied by silent stonewalling, wounded bird high dudgeon, and diva-like loud "dignified" withdrawal make a fascinating progression and have didactic value but I am willing to listen to other readings and am willing to accept guidance on the matter.

I have noticed that the editor who is the other half of that short dialogue does a high volume of useful amending edits and reverts elsewhere which is commendable but also quickly hides debates which have also pointed out a peremptory revert habit. --— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 04:24, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Mediation [edit]

I agree with you that posting on Wikipedia:Notability/Noticeboard#Hill_Street_Blues-.22Notability.22_of_cast_list did not have the desired effect, read input. Perhaps we should ask somebody to mediate. We could approach any uninvolved editor, preferably admin, or post on Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal. Or we could post on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and hope to draw some more input there. But you should keep your posts short. Long posts deter people from reading and commenting. Please let me know on my talkpage what you think we should do. Debresser (talk) 21:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Warning [edit]

Please do not make changes to Wikipedia policies and guidelines without prior discussing and obtaining consensus. Edits such as this one are not acceptable in this regard without prior discussion and ample proof that such is consensus on Wikipedia. For further information on this subject, please read the relevant sections of Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. Debresser (talk) 09:43, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

On a personal note. I see from the many commentaries and even warnings on your talkpage, and from some of the reaction you get to your posts on talkpages, that you are adapting less than ideally to the spirit of Wikipedia. You are trying to push your opinions, disregard the basic principle of consensus, and relate to other editors with less than full respect. This will not make you a popular person on Wikipedia, and your edits are likely to be under constant scrutiny and opposition. It is not the place of Wikipedia as a community, or of me in particular, to try and change you, but I think it may be productive for you to consider my words. Since this is your talkpage, please feel free to remove this post of mine, if you find it offensive or in other ways incorrect. Respectfully, Debresser (talk) 09:50, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

~ Oh Dovid ! You make me laugh sometimes! I choose to leave all my rebukes on my page, warts and all ! Others choose to hide theirs away very quickly so that their talk page appears to reflect a life of saintly benevolence.-Your own 24 hour edit warring block a week ago -all details gone - WHOOSH !? Such folk-I think we both know at least one or two others, are even funnier. Are you seriously trying to say that an image can be an attack but a caption can not ? Come,come my dear fellow ! that flies in the face of use common sense, but if it will make you happier I will list it as a sensible addition to the list of attack page horribles on the attack page talk page.

It is heartening to know that you, and other like you, who care so deeply about the site and about me, are following my feeble efforts here with such slavish devotion.Thank you. What danger are you so amply and warmly 'warning' me about exactly?

I am delighted to retain your kindly and fraternal rebukes here -they tell anyone who stops by as much about you as they do about me. I

s it a coincidence that this is monday morning ? You have cheered mine up considerably. If there are folk as you describe,who base their opposition on personality rather than ideas, then that is their tragedy. Lay on Macduff ! Damn the torpedoes !--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 10:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

~ I am happy to have cheered you up on this Monday. As far as your question about image captions and attack pages, I advise you to post on the talkpage of Wikipedia:Attack page and see what consensus is about this subject. This is, in fact, what you should have done from the start. Debresser (talk) 10:32, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Where would I be without your guiding light. I have already done as I promised and you have kindly suggested post promisso and post facto, As a small thank you for your many kindnesses and unfailing attention I have left you a little present on your talk page which i hope you will treaure as i treasure your bons mots--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 10:51, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Jesus' Blood Never Failed Me Yet [edit]

Sorry, but I've reverted your recent additions to Jesus' Blood Never Failed Me Yet, as they were just speculation - we can't add speculation to Wikipedia articles. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:31, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I am hunting up further references -I was hoping the edit would attract debate and research rather than the revert vultures. I have written to the professor of music. The absence of any royalties records and the age of the African American composer may provide further clues or evidence. The royalties information and the absence of any record of the original hymn are odd but facts and NOT speculation. Did you take a look at the two hymns ? Are you an ethnomusicologist ? Did you examine the texts of the referenced hymns? do you understand what "may have" means? I might write to Bryars and see can he throw any light-he may have sources that will make you happy, Respectfully--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 14:49, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Hi, the existence of those similar-sounding hymns, and your use of the phrase "may have", are irrelevant (and there's really no need to condescendingly ask me if I know what it means). Wikipedia rules forbid the addition of original research, which means that you cannot add your own personal speculation. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:55, 17 January 2011 (UTC) PS: referring to me as "revert vulture" is a personal attack, and such comments are likely to get you blocked if you continue. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC) (edit conflict)Sorry, Tumadoireacht, but inserting WP:Original research into articles is never acceptable. Neither is claiming that a living person didn't pay appropriate royalties, without WP:reliable sources. If you want to prompt discussion, do it on the talk page, not in articlespace. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:58, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Royalties for ancient hymns do not apply-there would be none to pay, He paid none.--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 15:51, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi. I've also reverted your latest change to say the recording was made in the 1960s - the sources I've checked, including Bryars himself, say it was recorded in 1971. If you believe you have better evidence, please discuss it on the Talk page first rather than changing it unilaterally, as it is clearly a contentious change. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:51, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

The composed piece was recorded in 1971. The old man was recorded in the sixties. Capeesh?--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 14:58, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Both those assertions are directly contradicted by the given sources. Do you have other sources that say this? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:12, 17 January 2011 (UTC) And knock off the sarcasm, or you are likely to end up being blocked from editing. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:14, 17 January 2011 (UTC) [1] 1971 recording of composition--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 15:18, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I see no mention of the 1960s there. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:20, 17 January 2011 (UTC) It contradicts the 1975 first recording OF THE COMPOSITION assertion.I know what Bryars said, but he was an ART student in 1971-if yo can remember 1971 were you there? Lighten up re vulture -a bit of humour. and "may have" was not sarcasm. Is there a way to include text from very similar hymns without falling foul of original research restrictions? Maybe to say these hymns contain these same words or something along those lines ? iam still hunting up the 60's reference--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 15:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC) No, it doesn't contradict the 1975 claim, as that is clearly referring to the first commercial recording. Yes, Bryars personally recorded his own composition in 1971 - I don't think anyone is contesting that (and it seems clear from the lengthy Bryars quote in the article that that is the case). But the first commercial recording was indeed the 1975 Obscure release (a copy of which I still have somewhere, though that is no more relevant than my location in 1971 - Wikipedia is written from reliable sources, not personal anecdote). How do you include references to those other hymns without it being considered original research? I don't think you can, unless you can find reliable sources linking them to the Bryars piece -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:37, 17 January 2011 (UTC) "There's one thing I know For he loves me so"

is from the children's song "Jesus Loves Me" (words Anna B. Warner, Music William B. Bradbury 1816-1868) The test for plagiarism is quite short but no copyright for this bit applies after all this time perhaps--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 15:42, 17 January 2011 (UTC) If no other hymns contain the "fail me yet" phrase or the above phrase I believe that is worthy of inclusion. How that information is couched is another matter--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 15:44, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Whatever you think, and even if you're right (which you may well be - it's certainly possible that the tramp was singing his own amalgamation of other hymns or songs he'd heard), it can't be added to the article unless there exist reliable sources which make the connection. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:00, 17 January 2011 (UTC) I think a section labelled "similar hymns" would do it with the quoted text--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 16:02, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I doubt it, because that is your personal judgment (and I don't think any other articles about music have "Similar songs" sections based on similar words) - but please do feel free to suggest it on the Talk page and see if you can get a consensus. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:08, 17 January 2011 (UTC) I'll say one thing, though - after all this talk, I just have to play it again :-) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:14, 17 January 2011 (UTC) It is magic -do you like him with or without Waits?--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 16:17, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Oh, with Waits - but I'm a big Waits fan too -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:36, 17 January 2011 (UTC) That catholic newspaper link has a considered review of the Waits participation but heavy on the religious significance -I liked the comparison and hat parallel with Godot-do you know the godot cyclist story ?--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 16:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah, Godeau, yes :-) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:40, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Here is one mention of the film being a 1960s film, I suppose a key question is what did Bryars DO on the movie- was he the sound recordist or did he come on board post location? which might make the 60s shooting and thus original recording more likely and still tally with his account. we will have to write to him after all this .2--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 16:53, 17 January 2011 (UTC) I just see a list of YouTube samples under the same URL - which one mentions 1960s? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:37, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Number 2--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 17:45, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Not sure what I'm missing here, but I watched that and didn't see or hear any mention of the 1960s (an unsourced YouTube wouldn't be much use anyway). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC) You need to click on the video details tab at the page top-who would have suspected a site called world news might be suspect--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 18:18, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Um, pretty much anyone who's been here for more than a week. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Sarek? humour ? sarcasm? Is that really you? It cannot be ! Go away and send back the stern unbending vulcan Sarek this instant, you, you frivolous impostor ! -— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 18:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Found it, thanks. But that's really just a blog comment and not at all a reliable source as per WP:RS. (And as an aside, you really can't decide the trustworthiness of a site by the name it calls itself). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC) PS: The 1960s comment was made by someone calling himself Ned Nickerson, but the only Ned Nickerson I can find is the Nancy Drew character - can't find anyone by that name who might have any connection with the film or music industry. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:31, 17 January 2011 (UTC) You are more up on Nancy than me -maybe she was all part of growing up and being American-never mind Nancy and Ned I have found the short story inspired by the song written by Dmitry Deutsch--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 18:36, 17 January 2011 (UTC) I know almost nothing about Nancy, and I've never been American - I just know how to search for stuff ;-) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:20, 19 January 2011 (UTC) Thank you [edit]

Thank you for the barnstar, and thank you for your work on the article about Obama's notable Tucson speech. Great to make your acquaintance. Cullen328 (talk) 07:52, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 12 hours for disruptive editing, as shown here and in recent contributions in general. Once the block has expired, you're welcome to make useful contributions. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC) How much material is required for the initial notice of intent to appeal a block ? The revert cited as the reason for the block was a reasonable action. The discussion thread that the revert was the label of was begun by me to open a discussion on including captions, and caption and image combinations in the Policy page definition of what constitutes an attack page attack, and also to look at the idea of whether folk other than the depicted, can be attacked by such means with reference to an interesting example. That discussion was still underway when user Debresser decided unilaterally to archive it. As the example in question which led to the proposed policy wording change is on Debresser's userpage, the early archiving and the title shortening by him alone raise some additional awkward questions. Debresser and SarekofVulcan both chose to attempt to shorten the title of the debate in a crude attempt to prevent the debate from considering what it had set out to do. SarekofVulcan reverted this entry from the middle of the debate:

As things stand, with your current proposed edit Bsherr, an editor approaching the page may now find no clue that the jesuitical "page" means (and recently defined by inclusion) an article, or a page,or a template,or a category,or a redirect, or an image. I believe the policy should also specifically include and mention image captions. "I believe this because I stumbled across a good example of this in Debresser's userpage. I do not believe Debresser intends to be offensive. He did not put the image and caption together but just imported them from someone who did. But intention, brevity or source do not alter the fact. Perhaps a good compromise from a policy point of view would be to include on the Project page some carefully chosen hypothetical examples of each of these 6 or 7 routes of attack, so that all readers of it fully understand. I also believe the phrase" that exists primarily to disparage its subject or others " is important as, in this case, others are being attacked (ironically the victims of the helicopter attacks) (although they do not appear in the image) BECAUSE the caption ties them to the image.

imagine an image of Belsen and a caption that reads "The leading cause of death amongst parasites after suicide" An image of Belsen has no context. A phrase about parasites has none either-put them together and you have as offensive a synthesis as you could imagine. The examples for the Project page could be chosen to be illustrative rather than so graphic. "

Without this entry the door to debate these ideas was closed. The fourth participant in the debate Bsherr,who does have some legal training, appeared open to at least discussing a fresh wording which reflected both clear policy and the concerns I expressed. I have found the actions of SarekofVulcan to be contrary to the spirit of the site in his dealings with me. I can go into greater detail if necessary, but it might be wise to focus on the given reason for the block for the present.

Should it be required I can provide links to the pertinent pages but i imagine whomever is considering this appeal knows their way around faster than I do.--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 15:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

You might want to read WP:NOTTHEM and rephrase some of the above before a reviewing admin drops by.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:12, 19 January 2011 (UTC) This is the the single revert that inspired the block{[3]]

This is the edit label that was on that revert(my revert)

(manual revert of no c'sensus edit(debresser) of title of thread I started just to discuss captions,+ caption+ image combos in Policy page definition of attack.no more revert w'out talk please)

The advice in the unblock guide page is useful, and I have carefully read the section SarekofVulcan referenced. I do not regard the revert or it's description as disruptive.I am not convinced of anybody else's bad faith, but I think the issue I have raised is an important one and would like the opportunity to discuss the wording in the changes I proposed without that discussion being truncated or having bits cut out of it.

I was in the process of writing a fuller explanation on the4 Policy talk page when the block occurred and I had intended to also revert once the early unannounced sudden archiving of the discussion to permit further discussion of the proposed policy amendments.

This is an unusual block case not fitting into any of the commonly cited cases on the block help page.

I was acting in good faith to try to contribute to improving a policy and a policy definition. I do not see that offering to stop trying to do that would be appropriate, in attempting to lift the block.

I just fixed the broken formatting above for you, and removed the new heading -- feel free to add it back in if you want. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:49, 19 January 2011 (UTC) This blocked user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy). Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked. Tumadoireacht (block log • active blocks • global blocks • autoblocks • contribs • deleted contribs • abuse filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock)

Request reason:

block misapplied to stifle an ongoing policy page debate about image and caption combinations potential as attack pages — Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 15:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC) Decline reason:

You're blocked for tendentious disruption on a subject that was closed. Importantly, it had no consensus - and you weren't gaining any - despite your insistence on the matter. But you persisted. Very bad form on a policy page. Just don't do it in the future. Xavexgoem (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC) If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first and then use the template again. If you abuse this procedure by making too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page for as long as you are blocked.

I disrupted nothing. I DID attempt to stop a weird censorship :The subject was"closed" for the purpose of preventing further debate, and the debate that had taken place was censored by changing its title,by excision of a large key portion, by attempting to discourage a key writer of the original policy 5 years ago from participating, and most importantly perhaps by removing key words from the original policy wording itself to fit rejecting the idea that the policy even applied.

That is a remarkable series of events. Sweeping an attempt to protest that process under the carpet of "tendentious disruption" is a dubious response. It addresses none of the issues raised in the appeal.

Here are some key phrases from the 2007 debates on this very point (which remain conspicuously unarchived on the talk page 4 years later !)

"No, this has to apply to Images and User pages as well... Images can be used to deliberately attack the subject just as much as words."(Blueboar)

Thats exactly why we should narrow the context of "attack pages" -- to remove the ambiguity. What about changing it to "Any article or image" then? /(Blaxthos)

The intent was to avoid attack pages within userspace.Ral315

An attack page is a Wikipedia article, page, template, category, redirect or image that exists primarily to disparage its subject.(Carol Mooredc)

This last sentence remained the core definition list until I proposed adding image captions, and including non image depicted victims a week ago. Then the whole list got chopped out in 5 minutes.

I've changed it to 'attacks against the subject of the page', since the subject of the attacks could be a company, church, society, ethnic group, country, etc., no need to qualify it as 'personal'.(LK 2009)

Does this need to be expanded to deal with the issue of "attack sections" (Carol Mooredc 2010)

See also the earlier discussion on 13 January2010 which I also instituted 5 which precipitated the second longer debate.

To dismiss an attempt to raise these issues by silencing the raiser for 12 hours and then a further undefined period in the kindergarten of "make useful contributions" is Kafkaesque. Please reconsider.--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 18:24, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy category [edit]

Hello Tumadoireacht. You appear to have a template on your user page which adds the Category:Wikipedia policies. This should be used on Wikipedia space articles only, so its current use here is inappropriate. Please could you remove it? Many thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks- I missed that in gathering up a handful of precepts. Now gone.--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 05:21, 20 January 2011 (UTC) --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 00:17, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion from admin SarekofVulcan re the surname of Jimmy Wales' first wife Pam and Reply [edit] Even though he's a public figure, he's still a WP editor, and WP:OUTING would seem to apply. I'd be careful with this line of inquiry, if I were you... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

JWales did not mention WP:OUTING in our discussion of it here [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales] but offered his opinion that his ex-wife's surname is irrelevant-I hold the contrasting view that its omission, especially if she is mentioned or quoted there is disrespectful to her, and diminishing to women. It is also likely to be verifiable in public marriage records. Additionally where a person has previously been quoted in a wiki cited public journal as the erstwhile spouse of a global public figure I too find it hard to see that WP:OUTING applies. However thank you for your interest--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 16:00, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

In reading the 16 text lines devoted to WP:OUTING a glaring omission seems to be sexual orientation- whence the term is borrowed. I may limit my suggestions for policy wording improvements to one page at a time for the moment though--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 16:00, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

This section of BLP(-see box at right) may be more applicable than WP:OUTING but the last line seems to favour divulging in this case Shortcut: WP:BLPNAME --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 00:17, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

cut in obama speech article [edit]

What did I do? I thought the only thing I trimmed was all the historians' Pulitzer prizes. I'll look at it now. --Kenatipo (talk) 23:35, 22 January 2011 (UT

Maybe I misread the editor--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 23:38, 22 January 2011 (UTC) I see what you mean now. I noticed the ref was screwed up and the only thing that seemed to fix it was to shorten the title. I reverted my edit, so the ref is mucked up again, format-wise. --Kenatipo (talk) 23:46, 22 January 2011 (UTC) As it turns out, the Title has to be on one line or the link, etc, doesn't display properly. I went and read about it in the Cite News template (which I should learn how to use). It's fixed. Sorry for the confusion! --Kenatipo (talk) 00:03, 23 January 2011 (UTC) No problemo--i did wonder whether you were a frustrated Deleter of the article chagrined at the decision to keep it. But only for a moment.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 00:10, 23 January 2011 (UTC) I voted to Keep on the AfD page, and I have a few comments on the article talk page, too. And I still think Garry Wills is an idiot, and, no, the speech doesn't remind me of the Sermon on the Mount. --Kenatipo (talk) 02:45, 23 January 2011 (UTC) Your actions and rationale are above reproach--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 05:21, 23 January 2011 (UTC) Thanks! --Kenatipo (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2011 (UTC) Lelia Doolan [edit]

In answer to your question: No, material posted by a university generally isn't "free" (in the sense of "unencumbered by copyright"). I encourage you to rewrite the portions of the article that are copied from, or closely paraphrase, this website or I will have to delete the Wikipedia article. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:45, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok I will get on it-how can one tell -will a page with 'free'stuff usually have a notice to that effect ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 06:19, 7 February 2011 (UTC) SP, february [edit]

thank you!, have I put into Newt Grinwich article it would have been met with lesser resistance, one of the reasons is that SP's article is clearly being "guarded" (to keep it off from unfavored information as hard as possible / only "positive" information in the article) by an admin Horologium and a few other editors. Userpd (talk) 18:30, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I have no time for agenda wielding bullies and did not like to see you have to defend your reasonable edit alone and be accused of going against a soi-disant unanimous consensus--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 21:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC) civil partnership in ireland [edit]

No sources--we'll have to take it out, I've reverted your addition of the 7 Feb civil partnership, but if you have a WP:RS noting it, point me at it and I'll be happy to add it to the article. (Should you happen to know this to be true directly, please pass along my congratulations.) I'll be happy to see it in the article the moment it's sourced. It is frustrating at times, but for the best, that Wikipedia is not about "what is true", but about "what the sources say." Have a great week! --j⚛e deckertalk to me 04:49, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I so want this to be true, but can't find any sources for it :( - Alison ❤ 05:09, 8 February 2011 (UTC) I was at the wedding along with 8 others- i suspect the best bet will be checking the Registrars website in a day or two --it IS TRUE --yeah yeah I know original research etc.-it was just too important not to share immediately.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 05:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Cool, I'm glad to hear it--and please (if you get the chance) pass along my happy congrats--I totally understand your enthusiasm! (I'd guess it'll be in the newspapers soon, so we shouldn't have to wait too long before we can add the info back, I expect.) --j⚛e deckertalk to me 05:46, 8 February 2011 (UTC) My writing [edit]

No, I am not prepared to reveal that information, sorry. I write under a number of different pseudonyms---I have not published under my own name in almost 20 years---depending upon the writing, and I keep those names a closely-guarded secret. I do not even tell close friends. Cheers! ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 01:58, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Two SF books I enjoyed greatly in recent years are "Anthropology through Science Fiction" and "The Sparrow". The disdain from mainstream lit crit towards SF is to be regretted. I would have enjoyed the notion that I was reading the work of a fellow WP editor-ah well - tant pis. If you do settle in SW Ireland I will show you where to snorkel for scallops and for lobsters. You must know John Crowley. We have big overlap in our film,writer and music tastes-try Bill Naughton and Wienawski too--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 03:33, 11 February 2011 (UTC) BLP, ethnicity, gender [edit]

Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Include "ethnicity, gender," to match all other guidelines

Wikilawyers have been trying to drive through a wording loophole in WP:BLP, saying ethnicity and gender of WP:EGRS don't apply to living persons, simply because the two words aren't in the policy. (Apparently, they think it should only apply to dead people.) I see that you have participated on this topic at the Village Pump.

They also are trying to remove the notability, relevance, and self-identification criteria at WT:EGRS, but that's another fight for another day, I'm simply too busy to watch two fronts at the same time. --William Allen Simpson (talk) 21:34, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:Chinese characters [edit]

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Please comment on Talk:Cigarette holder [edit]

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Please comment on Talk:Said the actress to the bishop [edit]

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Please comment on Talk:Three Kingdoms [edit]

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Rabbi -> guy [edit]

This edit is noted. Changing "Rabbi" to "guy" wasn't one of the things you can be proud of in life. Debresser (talk) 16:58, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Tch Tch Debresser - a proposal to patrol my own edits of my own entries too ? you do make me laugh sometimes--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 17:08, 13 November 2012 (UTC) Please comment on Talk:List of official languages by state [edit]

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You are welcome [edit]

Hey, thank you for your appreciation ツ. These little stray accidents are so easy to do, there's a bot (28bot) that logs them for a living. I follow its page and quietly undo them. Happy editing and all the best! Fylbecatulous talk 13:22, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:Feminism [edit]

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A pie for you! [edit]

Have a merry christmas Tumadoireacht. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 00:56, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

your reversion of 'See Also" list on Circumcision article [edit]

When you say "We do not like See Also lists" - in reverting my edit is it a royal We or can you steer me to a WP policy page that says this." See also" lists abound in other articles I am curious Tumadoireacht

Sure policy is here WP:MEDMOS. If terms are notable they should be combined into the text. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:29, 24 December 2012 (UTC) Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot [edit]

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Please comment on Talk:Minimal pair [edit]

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February 2013 [edit]

Please stop adding unsourced content, as you did to Circumcision. This contravenes Wikipedia's policy on verifiability. If you continue to do so, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Zad68 16:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming [edit]

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MEDDATE policy and how it applies to Wikipedia [edit]

WP:MEDDATE can not be used to toss out older articles should there be no alternatives. The purpose of MEDDATE is to invalidate old research in light of newer research. I do not wish to get involved in the circumcision page again, but I think you will find that many of the WP policies on that talk page are misused by certain individuals. Rip-Saw (talk) 02:28, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:Traditional marriage [edit]

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Concerns about WP:V and WP:LEAD problems [edit]

Tumadoireacht, a number of your recent edits have not been in line with Wikipedia policy, and I hope that by pointing out the concerns here, such problems can be avoided in the future.

First, please stop changing article content to make it say things that are not supported by the sources cited. You should not add or change article content that is cited to a source (or multiple sources) without first checking the sources cited to make sure they support your change. This is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia article content, please see WP:V, which says "The citation must clearly support the material as presented in the article." Examples of where you have changed article content away from the sources cited say include:

At 16:50, 19 May 2013, to Circumcision, you made the change: "surgical removal of all or part of the foreskin", but none of the three sources cited (all med-school or professional level textbooks) support "part of": Lissauer: does not discuss partial circumcision Rudolph does not discuss partial circumcision Sawyer: "In the male, circumcision refers to the surgical removal of this foreskin or prepuce" (this was a change to the lead only) At 21:16, 10 May 2013, to Circumcision, you made the change: "A 2009 Cochrane meta-analysis of studies done on sexually active men in Africa found that circumcision reduces reduced the infection rate of HIV among those heterosexual men", with edit summary "reduces changed to reduced - neither the study nor the results are ongoing nor extrapolatable", but the source says "There is strong evidence that medical male circumcision reduces the acquisition of HIV by heterosexual men" (this was a change to the lead only) At 01:45, 20 February 2013, to The Holocaust, you made the change: "the Roma and Sinti are traditionally a secretive private people", but the source says "Traditionally a secretive and largely nonliterate people" At 17:37, 18 February 2013, to Cantillon Brewery, you added "Cantillon is the only remaining brewery within the city of Brussels and the only kriek maker using whole fruit rather than fruit syrups." directly in front of the ref marker, but the source cited doesn't say that At 15:38, 1 February 2013, to Circumcision, you made the change: "It is a treatment option for adult phimosis..." with edit summary "adult phimosis - phimosis in infant is normal", but the sources cited, Lissauer and Hay, are both pediatric texts (this was a change to the lead only) At 00:42, 31 January 2013 and again at 15:35, 1 February 2013, to Circumcision, you changed the description of the procedure to be significantly different from what the source said, this was reverted with the appropriate edit summary "That is not what the sources say. You can't make up stuff and put it in front of an existing source." (this was a change to the lead only) At 13:51, 1 January 2013, to Circumcision, you made the change: "among heterosexual men who have sex with women" but the source says "male circumcision reduces the acquisition of HIV by heterosexual men" (this was a change to the lead only) Note that this is a separate problem from adding of completely unsourced content, like you did in these edits to the following articles: Gormgal of Ardoileán, Bray (addition of an unsourced BLP claim), Joan Baez, James Hornell, Jodie Foster (addition of unsourced BLP claim), 110 (number), French people. In those edits, the article shows the content added is clearly unsourced, and as such they're actually less problematic, excepting the unsourced BLP claims made. In the edits I am bringing up above, you made changes to an article to make it appear the changed content is supported by sources when it is not, which is misleading.

If you feel the article should say something different from what it currently says, please provide sourcing that supports your content changes. Make sure the sourcing you bring complies with Wikipedia sourcing policy and guideline, including WP:RS, and (where appropriate) WP:MEDRS. Making changes unsupported by sources may be considered original resesarch. I see that you have already received a number of warnings over the past few years regarding edits you have made that had sourcing problems. This is another such warning, please take care that your future article edits are well-supported by reliable sourcing. Consider proposing changes to well-supported article content at the article's Talk page first.

Second, please do not make changes to the lead of an article that are not supported by the article body. Per WP:LEAD, the lead should "summarize the body of the article" (emphasis added); the lead should not contain new or different information that isn't covered in the article body. If you're changing information in the lead, that information needs to be in the article body already, or if it's not, it needs to be developed in the article body before it's added to the lead. In the above list I've indicated five edits made that made a change to the lead that was not only unsupported by the source, but was also unsupported by the content in the article body.

I appreciate your attention, thanks... Zad68 04:38, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Regarding: you made the change: "among heterosexual men who have sex with women" but the source says "male circumcision reduces the acquisition of HIV by heterosexual men" (this was a change to the lead only) We do rephrase sources to a limited degree, when it makes sense. Identifying behaviour (sex with women) rather than inclination (sexual orientation) makes a lot more sense here. Clearly heterosexual men who have sex with men would not be protected by a surgery, nor would homosexual men who have sex with women be excluded from any potential benefits. Ranze (talk) 18:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC) Yes, you're right, we do paraphrase or find synonyms to avoid flat-out plagiarism, but the change made in the edit you've identified didn't need to be made for that purpose, and as we all agree the word substituted wasn't a synonym, it changed "heterosexual", the sexual orientation (used by the source) to "men who have sex with women", the act, and "men who have sex with women" doesn't exclude men who might additionally have sex with men like "heterosexual" does. Sources indicate the HIV protective effect circumcision has on homosexual sex is very different from its effect on heterosexual sex so it's an important difference. Zad68 03:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC) moved here from my User Talk page to keep the conversation in one place: Zad68

Zad- thank you for your extensive and exhaustive trawl through my edits ant talk page history which you conducted on my talk page. I will consider the points you made and respond when prepared. Will you in the meantime also consider that some prejudice or selectivity may have consciously or unconsciously have slipped into both your own editing practice and the selection of those whom you summon to provide supporting comments for it when it is challenged ? Here is one rebuttal to be getting on with -one of your favourite sources the Cochrane meta analysis summary defines circumcision in its summary (also your favourite part when you agree with it) as "full or partial removal " Is it your position that all circumcisions worldwide involve full removal ? I think you sometimes confuse the USA situation with the wider one. Thank you for your diligence and attention. I do not issue warnings to other editors as I regard the practice as impertinent. I leave it to administrators whose function it is. May I suggest that your numerous chidings/guidings of other editors might be better received if you adopted the same reserve.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 09:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC) Tumadoireacht, regarding the part of your comment here where you said, the Cochrane meta analysis summary defines circumcision in its summary ... as "full or partial removal" - So why didn't you cite that source when you changed the article? (Whether we should use Cochrane's description is a different question, let's discuss that on the Talk page, the point is to bring the source.) That is the only thing I'm trying to get at: If you make a change to an article, please make sure the sources cited support the change. If the article cites three sources, don't make a significant change to the meaning of the article content without first checking that the sources cited support the change, and if they don't, bring a source that does support the change. That's all.

You have indeed demonstrated that you can do this checking, as you alluded to in your same comment, I think you sometimes confuse the USA situation with the wider one. - yes, you're right, I have written article content that makes a statement that I should have localized to the USA and you've fixed it, like you did here. It was a good edit that brought the article content in closer harmony with what the source indicates. I'm just asking you to please take the same kind of care with your other edits, OK? Zad68 03:10, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

GM issues [edit]

I've requested userfication of the deleted article. Perhaps it can be moved to incubation to attract more editors to improve it, but you will be free to edit it on my userspace if you like, if I can make that happen. Btw when you talk about admins shutting down MGM discussion, Mkdw shut down this one, are you saying other articles have been deleted related to this topic by this admin in a way that exceeds expectation of coincidence? Perhaps that could be documented? Ranze (talk) 18:50, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Ranze, with all due respect, I strongly urge you to read both the guideline about the deletion process and WP:AGF. When you say, I "shut this one down", I closed the AFD discussion as per the policy. A discussion is open for 7 days before it is closed. The discussion began 11 May 2013, and was closed by me on 19 May 2013. Secondly, I am curious as to what other articles you refer that I have deleted relating to MGM. I regularly close AFD discussions as the area I am active. You may have a look at my 19 May 2013 contribution logs. You can look through my 19,000 edits but as far as I know, I have never deleted or edited any articles relating to genital mutilation prior to the 19 May 2013. I had seriously considered your userfy request despite the consensus that such an article should not be made at the AFD. I've noticed you've considered filing an administrator review and have gone to other venues to find a solution. As such, it would represent a conflict of interest for me to meet your request as it may appear to be a means of appeasement. I have left a copy of this message on my talk page as well but I wanted Tumadoireacht to hear this from me as I was largely an uninvolved admin at the time of the closing. Mkdwtalk 19:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC) To be fair to Mkdw the above statement is correct- 7 days is the normal period for an Rfc discussion and she/he does not appear to be part of the" greek chorus" on MC, and here exhibits both an honourable honesty and helpfulness--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 11:22, 21 May 2013 (UTC)