User talk:Twelve31

== Your submission at Articles for creation: Donny Kees (December 31) ==  Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Eternal Shadow was:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.


 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Donny Kees and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
 * If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
 * If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:Donny_Kees Articles for creation help desk], on the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Eternal_Shadow&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Donny_Kees reviewer's talk page] or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Eternal Shadow  Talk  22:49, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello,
 * I will check this out to seek some help in this matter. However, I want to ask you a noob-ish question. I don't understand the reason for denial. "Significant coverage" doesn't seem to apply. The subject's work is already well noted on multiple wiki pages that have already been approved and are active which is why the work is linked internally within wiki. You can look at those artists discographies and see the subject as credited as a writer of the work. I guess what I am asking, is what other external sources are needed here to verify "significant coverage"? Any insight and assistance are much appreciated.
 * Thanks! Twelve31 (talk) 23:54, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I posed this question in the Articles for creation help desk. Thanks, I will see if they can clarify. Twelve31 (talk) 00:21, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi Twelve31, I saw you note at he AfC help desk and did some work on the article, mostly finding sources so please take look at the sources I added to which you have access (a couple or so you likely don't). I could not find anything for his work as a singer and the current sources are not reliable (Discogs, YouTube, etc) so if you cannot find better sources I suggest removing that section and just note he started his career as singer. He does meet the the notability criteria for song writers (certainly criteria 1) but the prose needs some work and more sources likely exist. You may be able find additional sources in articles where he is mentioned. There is also Category:Songs written by Donny Kees but it appears several articles are missing.I also have to ask, do you have any affiliation with him? Some of the information in the draft appears to come from someone with first-hand knowledge (like his date of birth). If so, you likely have a Conflict of Interest (read that) which needs to be declared.  Even so, you are welcome to continue to work on the draft.  S0091 (talk) 20:21, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey S0091, Thank you for your work here. A couple of questions. 1. I had also found that newspaper article cited for his birthplace. However, that isn't correct. He was actually born in Carbondale and that has to be an oversight by the writer of the article. What should we do here concerning that citation? 2. Discogs... I know isn't reliable but they actually had pictures of the 45's. These are pretty rare which is why I included. I think you are right though about maybe deleting that entire section. Twelve31 (talk) 20:39, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * How do you know he was born in Carbondale? S0091 (talk) 20:51, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey S0091,
 * I asked him for clarification. He lived in Chesapeake and would consider that place as where he is from but was born in Carbondale. Apparently, the WV music hall of fame knows this too as they were putting on an exhibit with a Fayette county focus and included him. Carbondale is in Fayette county but Chesapeake is not. However, I can't find anything that specifically states he was born in Carbondale. Everything seems to have spread from that one article.
 * "The display, funded by The Greater Kanawha Valley Foundation, will focus on Fayette County musicians including harmonica legend Charlie McCoy and mega-successful Nashville songwriter Donny Kees".
 * https://www.fayettetribune.com/news/local_news/west-virginia-music-hall-of-fame-seeks-ideas-memorabilia-for-satellite-exhibit/article_89f3377e-b871-5a14-8812-0c5a3ae41581.html
 * What would you do here as far as the listing? Twelve31 (talk) 21:24, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Family member. Sorry I just saw this after you asked the first question. No problem. I am trying to figure out how to do this declaration. I didn't realize that this had to be done. A friend of the family was supposed to do this but has dropped the ball so to speak. So I picked up where they left off. Twelve31 (talk) 21:37, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I updated the draft from "born in" to "grew up in" which I think covers it accurately. For the COI declaration, you can just post a note on your User page (User:Twelve31) simply stating you have a COI with Donny Kees (no need to state how, only that you do) and I can update it with the template, if you are ok with me doing so.  S0091 (talk) 21:50, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Absolutely! Thank you so much for your help and guidance. Twelve31 (talk) 21:52, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok did I do that correctly? Twelve31 (talk) 21:40, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Eh...doesn't appear so but see my note above. If you are ok with me doing with it, I can.  S0091 (talk) 21:56, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * yes please. I'm sorry for being such a noob at this. Twelve31 (talk) 21:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅. No need to apologize. Wikipedia is not easy.  S0091 (talk) 22:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It really isn't! So should I continue to work on this? If so, can I reach out to you for review on whether or not it is ready for resubmission? Twelve31 (talk) 22:11, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Note I am not at all attached to the bits I added or amended so please do feel free to rewrite/change anything I contributed, as long as it is supported by a reputable source. Also, sources do not need to be online so if there are offline published sources, as long as you can provide the necessary bibliographic details (title of article/work, publication, date of publication, page number, author if applicable, etc.), that's fine. If you have general editing questions, you can ask at the Teahouse.  You are also welcome to reach out to me directly (click the "talk" link by my signature to leave me a message), though I cannot promise a quick response.  S0091 (talk) 22:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ha! I was drafting this message as you were posting yours.  Yes, I think you should continue to work on it, at least tightening up the prose.  I will try to find a decent article you can use for an example.  If you do not hear from me in the next week, leave me a "nudge" on my talk page.  S0091 (talk) 22:40, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * you got it! Thank you! Twelve31 (talk) 22:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Going through Category:American country songwriters, I found Tom Douglas (songwriter) which is a simple well-written article. Pinging @TenPoundHammer who created it, is still quite active here and I noticed they created a quite a few articles about country music songwriters so may be interested in helping expand this one.  TPH, I did find some additional sources which I added to the draft but I was mainly focused sources, not the prose/content and additional sources likely exist.  Twelve31 is new here and while they have a COI regarding Draft:Donny Kees, they have done a good job with documenting some basics and Kees is clearly notable (see also articles that mention him and Category:Songs written by Donny Kees).  S0091 (talk) 18:25, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look at it. Honestly I don't get why the draft was rejected, as it's decently sourced and spells out why Donny Kees is notable. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 18:50, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @TenPoundHammer at the time of the decline the sourcing was not great but has since been improved. S0091 (talk) 18:57, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @S0091 @TenPoundHammer Thank you for looking at this and helping! S0091 is correct, the original submission was not nearly as sourced as this is now. My inexperience in creating one of these definitely showed through. Please feel free to add/remove/modify as you see fit to help this along in any way possible. Thank you! Twelve31 (talk) 20:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Ready?
So here's the deal, because you have a COI once the draft is accepted and moved to "mainspace" (article) you should not edit it directly outside of minor copy edits or something like that. Otherwise, you should make WP:edit requests on the draft's talk page. I think the draft is in good shape but if there are things you want to add/change, it's best to leave it in draft so you can work in it freely. If you are ready now, I can submit/accept it. If you want to wait, once you are ready just click the blue Resubmit button. S0091 (talk) 18:43, 5 January 2024 (UTC)


 * @S0091 I think it is ready. Looks great. The work you have done is amazing! I can't thank you enough. Since I have a COI, I think you should submit. Please go ahead. Twelve31 (talk) 01:31, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @S0091 one last question before you submit. The claim that he has written songs on over 40 million records sold...You have need citation there. I went on the RIAA website and basically counted. The tools they have are terrible. But album sales alone totaled up to 37.5 million. This doesn't count any singles or even update certifications. There's literally no way that I can see to get this info on a single page. You have to know what albums he has songs on then look at the RIAA cert number whether it's multi plat, plat or gold. Not sure what to do about this. Twelve31 (talk) 09:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @S0091 We Could just remove that line altogether about sales and possibly say that as a songwriter Kees became one of the most sought after writers in Nashville.... We could cite this Middletown Press article: https://www.middletownpress.com/news/article/Middlefield-country-sister-duo-Presley-Taylor-14547061.php Twelve31 (talk) 15:37, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * That works! Also, I think reader's will understand his songs/the albums have sold into the tens of millions given the volume of his work, not to mention numbers tend to make reader's eyes glaze over  :)  If you want to go ahead and make that update, then click submit I will accept it.  Also, pull up When Did You Stop Loving Me (or any of the charting singles that have articles).  I went ahead added links in those articles to the currently non-existent article about Kees but once I accept it, the red links will turn blue.  You will want to add links the others too.  Do the infobox if he's listed and the first mention of him within the body. (adding links is a minor edit, don't worry about COI). I also suggest adding those songs to the discography (not a minor edit but those are backup by both the articles and the All Music credits cited in the Kees article).  S0091 (talk) 16:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @S0091 Done! thank you! Twelve31 (talk) 16:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅! Good job!  I just noticed the External links section.  You need to remove his website since it already linked in the infobox but you can put those Discogs and YouTube links there you had used earlier as sources.  If there are other songwriters you know about that are as accomplished as Kees (some number 1s, awards, etc.), happy to help with research if you are interested in spinning up a draft.  And this is from someone who is not a fan of country music lol but it was nice working with you.  One of big issues we have with editors who have a COI is often they write blatantly promotional articles, even if that is not their intent and often about topics that are not notable but you did a good job sticking to facts and not glorifying the subject. S0091 (talk) 16:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @S0091 Thank you. I will make those changes to external links. I may do a few others that I know of as well. This wouldn't have happened without you, can't thank you enough. This definitely wasn't for promotional purposes. It was purely merit based. I will reach out to you when I get a draft of another. Thanks again! Twelve31 (talk) 17:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I think between the two of us, all the articles that mention Kees are now linked. S0091 (talk) 17:49, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @S0091 Yes, I think you were ahead of me. As I was moving down the list, I could see you already had them. Twelve31 (talk) 17:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Donny Kees has been accepted
 Donny Kees, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Donny_Kees help desk] . Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider.

Thanks again, and happy editing! S0091 (talk) 16:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)