User talk:Umbrellazebra

Reminder to Check Edit Summaries and Engage in Talk Page
I just did a review of the Takeshi Kaneshiro edit history. I ended up finding that you indeed made unilateral edits without explanation despite my repeated attempt to engage you into the conversation. On July 2, you reverted my edits without explanation and I asked you to explain twice to go to the Talk Page. You did so again on July 3. So your prior baseless claim that I did not try to engage you is false. Secondly, your talk page was unmonitored at that time, your reply to a 2020 comment was only made today after my reminder. I know you may be new to Wikipedia, but Talk page guidelines does a great job and that should be the first thing you did whenever edit war begins, which I have done by initiating a topic under Takeshi's talk page. In hindsight, perhaps I should have tagged you but your account really seemed similar to Sock Puppet Account. Key red flags I noted was that there were multiple accounts (fulong, FCK0000, and IP addresses) making the same edits as you. Plus the fact that you refused to make conversation similar to Fulong was a major red flag for me (Fulong was blocked for its unexplained edits and repeatedly vandalism). I want this argument between us to end but I want you to understand why I made that comment. You claim that you are an experienced user now, then you must understand that any Wikipedia user, based on all available evidence at that time, would have made a reasonable assumption that you were not making good-faith edits by automatically reverting someone's edits, refusing to engage in talk pages, and not providing edit summaries. I'm willing to reach a consensus and that this has been a misunderstanding once you accept that. Otherwise, I can keep on going.Jjj84206 (talk) 20:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I never claimed that I was an experienced Wikipedia editor, first of all, and until I unfortunately encountered you by making a simple request that you refrain from making unsubstantiated claims about my intentions on this platform, I never experienced any bullying or harassment from other users. I am a newcomer here and never concealed that, nor do I intend to become defensive over this non-issue. The fact is, you were angered by a small request that must have suggested to you that you might have made an uninformed allegation. If you want edit summaries, fine, and if I remember correctly, your edit was about the nationality issue, and I probably added “Japanese”. If you’re going to attack someone with such rudeness for any newbie mistake, well, there’s nothing I can say that will persuade you to behave with more civility. I consider this matter closed. Umbrellazebra (talk) 20:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC).

I am adding this purely for clarity: I do not spend all my time on this platform. I cannot always scroll through countless edit summaries in search of potential comments directed towards me. When I find a comment, I will try to respond as soon as possible. Persistent harassment of one user by another is simply unacceptable. Whatever the disagreement, politeness should be a priority.Umbrellazebra (talk) 20:59, 9 August 2021 (UTC).


 * It's not closed. In fact, your repeatedly try to drop some serious accusations prior to fleeing the scene. Please take responsibility of your words. If you're afraid of confrontation or a logical debate, do not start it. There's no bullying involved and your previous comment on my talk page really deserves some reprimand. "If I weren’t a 20 year old woman and if I were a man of any age, you would have approached this differently.", excuse me, what is that supposed to mean? Did you just assume my gender and sexual orientation, and imply that I would reply differently because you are a woman? "I don’t know anyone, and certainly I don’t know any women, who would quietly accept this level of rudeness.", did you just assume that any other men, LGBTQ, or gender-neutral groups would somehow be different and accept something you deem "bullying"? This is very serious accusation and discrimination, and I want you to be very careful with your words. You are telling me that you're new, so I won't report you for admin attention for English Wikipedia non-discrimination policy. But if you wanted advice from me or any other Wikipedia editors, starting off the conversation that way to antagonize your audience is not the right way. Yes, you make newbie mistakes, accept it and don't make it again next time. I gave you concrete evidence and advice to check talk page and provide edit summaries, why were you going off and then attacking me that my suggestion at that time, despite reasonable, were somehow "attacks" on you? You weren't replying, I repeatedly told you to engage (3 times), and you proceeded to revert (which is by the way, vandalism, and why Fulong got banned). No one is bullying you and if you want to talk about harassment, you started this by posting on my talk page and repeatedly replied so if anything, I'm the one being harassed. No one cares if you're Japanese/Taiwanese or your gender. And if you think that's bullying, please be mindful that your words are equally bullying as well. I simply reply your words with equal strengths. You started the fight, make sure you can finish it and defend your arguments. I'm willing to let this go, and I'm willing to be nice and teach you, provided you have the right attitude. I'm Taiwanese too and a fan of Takeshi, so our edits should have been aligned. Here's an opportunity for you to reconcile, where this conversation leads is up to you from now on.Jjj84206 (talk) 21:03, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

If pointing out that you made an unsubstantiated allegation about someone is in any way aggressive in your opinion, there’s nothing I can do to dissuade you. The truth is that I repeatedly asked for some civility while your responses escalated in tone, leading me to see your responses in a certain light. If it will make you happy and more polite, I will stop making edits altogether. Congratulations: you might not consider yourself a bully, but you have certainly bullied me off this platform. This has been the most unpleasant online experience I’ve ever had. This is not your victory, by the way. I simply have better things to do than to obsess over such pointless things. Whatever I say, you will take it the wrong way. You say I repeatedly replied. May I point out that you did, too? In fact, I said that this matter is closed, and you refused to accept it. I’m afraid one of us has to show some maturity and see things clearly: we’re arguing over a Wikipedia page. If you think you’re a better custodian of this page than just about anyone else, you should keep going. There’s a large world out there and I don’t have any more time for internet trivialities- obviously, that first response I made to vandalism on Takeshi’s page was a well-intentioned mistake on my part. I want to make it very clear that I am taking a backward step now because I’ve been bullied here. This is just not worth it- a conversation is made up of two sides, and it’s clear that to you, there’s only one. Umbrellazebra (talk) 21:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC).

And if you want to accuse me of “fleeing the scene”, let me say in advance that an attempt to end an argument after putting across my side and my experience of it is hardly fleeing. Just because you choose to pursue, it does not mean that the other person is fleeing. Your choice of language simply proves that there’s no way to have this conversation with you and you will make further threats and level further insults. Would anyone want to experience this? Umbrellazebra (talk) 21:21, 9 August 2021 (UTC).

One final thing: I don’t need you to teach me anything, thank you, since you claim that I must have the right attitude first. What is that, according to you? Accepting insults without question? You say that I’ve ignored other groups when, and please understand this, I am only speaking of my experiences of being repeatedly bullied by you. When I say that I don’t know any other women who would tolerate this tirade, I am speaking from my own experience and not assuming knowledge of any other group. This shows clearly that whatever I say will be misused by you, for your own purposes, and this is extremely insulting. I am allowed to articulate my own experiences, although to you, this might come across as the wrong attitude. To most people, it’s just someone speaking up for themselves. Please leave me alone. Umbrellazebra (talk) 21:24, 9 August 2021 (UTC).


 * You can't just make unsubstantiated allegation about someone and then say "hey leave me alone", you made sexist comments and I tried to let you know that this is not the right attitude, and you proceeded to congratulate me when I didn't even care if you stay or not. Discrimination should never be allowed anywhere, and I want to let you know that your previous statements would have been just cause for legal implications if you had made it in real life. And yes, you are fleeing. Even knowing that you were wrong to make discriminatory remarks and not following wiki rules, you still wanted to put blame saying that I bully you off the platform. I wanted to help you, only were met with hostility. Please note that communication is both ways, if you felt bullied or uncomfortable, understand that the feeling is mutual and for everything you said earlier regarding about civility and rudeness, same applies to you and you are no better than the "aggressive person" image you're trying to pin on me. Don't try to pretend you're a victim, you're not, you're the one that attacked me, initiated these essays including the discrimination/sexism, and you're the one who broke wikipedia rules and who can't hold a logical argument. I gave you a chance to redeem yourself despite you being new and I wanted to be nice, but that has been met with more personal attacks. If you want to play the bullying game, fine, I felt verbally bullied by your above statements too. This has been the most unpleasant experiences I've ever had online, and congratulations, you might not know you're a bully but your comments and assumptions on my gender has contributed psychological trauma on me and I will now see a therapist. I do not condone racist/sexist behaviour, and please remember, even when you're off the platform, do not discriminate.Jjj84206 (talk) 21:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Listen, telling the person you bullied that you’re being bullied is a classic aggressor move, and the fact remains that I began this absurdity by asking you to refrain from behaviour that made me uncomfortable. You continued to make me uncomfortable and you did bully me off this platform. As for legal implications, I’m a law graduate, and I am perfectly aware of all parameters at play. If you misuse the term discrimination, you are devaluing the experience in the same way you devalued my experience of being bullied by you. What is a repeated plea to leave me alone, you see as somehow hostile. If this is your life, I wish you luck with it- sincerely, although I’m aware that to you, this and any other words I may use will by some strange necessity be taken as hostile. My world is bigger than this, and I hope that one day, someone’s request for civility won’t make you so angry. If you feel that you have to turn your own behaviour around on someone else while you’re mistreating them, you are a bully, and trying to offload that behaviour on others only reflects on you. You made an allegation about me, and I spoke up for myself. This is not discrimination by any stretch of the imagination and your feeble attempt to label it as such is simply disappointing. I don’t know whether I am the first person to be bullied off this platform by you, but I really do hope I am the last. Goodbye. Umbrellazebra (talk) 21:55, 9 August 2021 (UTC).


 * once again, dropped a load of accusations prior to fleeing the scene. As someone who has background in law, I would recommend you that in real life, if you want to be a good lawyer, you cannot be afraid of confrontation and arguments. There has been no hostility, no bullying, and you have absolutely no evidence for any of the above. Whereas any reasonable and objective individual would have interpreted what you said as a direct violation of Wikipedia rules/sexism. Even when there's documented evidence against you, you still refuse to admit of your blatant sexism, this is the most common behaviour for someone with inherent discriminatory views. I have been repeatedly harassed by you and I'm trying to tell you, this isn't right. Bullying should never be allowed on this platform and I urge you to reconsider your stance. You are a bully, and trying to offload that behaviour onto me. You could not uphold your own argument, so you proceeded to make personal attacks and even resorting making assumptions of my privacy. Do you enjoy this? I certain don't. You are at all liberties to cease replying and as you promised, "leave the platform". It's completely my liberty to make comments and reply to your false allegations. So telling me "repeated plea to leave me alone", sorry, same applies to you too. You're not letting this go and it almost seems like you want this go on - a prime example of cyber bullying. I gave you a chance to make peace but you decided to escalate it further. Your behaviour as I mentioned, is very childish. You must win no matter what. You must be right. If you can't win by arguments, you want to win by gathering sympathy (hence your sexist comments), and finally that doesn't work, try to win by saying "you're a bully" and you want to leave and everything is the other's fault. This is a good quality of a law student I commend you for that, but it won't work on me. As someone with a very similar background as you, I see through your tactics. And no, you won't quit Wikipedia or else you wouldn't be replying.Jjj84206 (talk) 22:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

For what I hope will be the last time, look at the pattern: there is evidence of you repeatedly bullying me and then labelling my attempt to defend myself as bullying. This is what bullies do. I am not afraid of an argument, but I would rather argue with a reasonable person. If you overreact to a request to refrain from making uninformed claims about someone to the extent that you literally begin an hours-long argument with someone and refuse to let them put an end to it, let me ask you, who’s the real bully here? In your opinion, you will always be right, and you will make countless justifications to yourself in order to allow this. That’s not my problem. And as for my so called tactics, there are none. I point out that you have been condescending, insulting and aggressive, and you respond by being condescending, insulting and aggressive. I am not trying to win. I am literally trying to put an end to this argument so I can have the privilege of never encountering you (no offence, but this experience has been utterly ridiculous) or this platform ever again. As for gathering sympathy, who’s claiming discrimination and posting about therapists? You, not me. I’m not interested in sympathy or your opinion because the fact is, this bizarre experience has its origin point in your refusal to accept that your initial, uninformed claims made me uncomfortable. That is not a bid for sympathy. It’s a fact. The person who tried to convince you of Takeshi’s dual nationality was also rebuffed by your absolute belief in your own opinion when both opinions are equally correct, and I wonder whether they would have received similar treatment had they tried to initiate a conversation with you. It’s absolutely my fault: this is why I was told never to talk to anyone on the internet. Let this go now and be mature since you claim I’m not. If you respond with your usual accusations and blame shifting, you will prove me right.Umbrellazebra (talk) 22:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC).


 * I can say the same thing too. You repeatedly harass me and then call myself as I attempt to tell you bullying is not ok. Everything you say I can use it against you because you're engaged in the exact behaviour you're calling me for. You the one who started this, and I told you many times why you were labeled as Sock Puppetry because you broke Wikipedia rules by not engaging in discussions, despite I told you 3 times. You refuse to let this argument end by accusing me something I'm not, and you even dropped sexist comments. Who's the real bully? You words have been condescending, insulting and aggressive and you refuse to apologize for your assumption on my privacy. You have said that you will no longer engage in this toxic behaviour 3 times already, yet every time I stood up for myself, you proceeded to drop even more vile comments and told me that I cannot reply. You post a lot of words, but most of them are nonsense. You keep on saying you want to exit this platform, yet you repeatedly reply more because you can't let it go, you have to win no matter what. Keep going with the sexism, keep trying to gather sympathy, keep on going with your bullying and make other wiki editors uncomfortable with your constant verbal abuse and refusal to admit you care too much to let it go (you said you want to leave 3 times already, yet keep on replying and posting some code of conduct, like anyone cares). I won't stop until you do. Sorry. But someone has to teach you that you can't just do whatever you want in life without consequences. Haha "If you respond you will prove me right", may I ask if you have graduated already? Jjj84206 (talk) 22:49, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I don’t know you and I certainly don’t wish to. No, you may not ask me anything about myself and your words are irrational, toxic, and absurd. I freely admit that it’s my fault for expecting reason and decency from you. If my request for some civility is vile, then so be it. You must know better. Before this gets even more absurd, let me say this: throwing insults at someone and deliberately attempting to hurt them for your own satisfaction, particularly over something so ridiculously small, reflects badly on you. Several times, I have requested that you cease replying, and you berate me for responding to your insults. If the ability to say what you like about someone with complete impunity is so important to you, perhaps you should ask yourself why. This is a larger issue than a dispute over a page. You can attempt to make me look bad if you like, but the truth is that you escalated your remarks and now you are puzzled when I reply. In real life, if you insult people, they do tend to take it personally. You have insulted, scolded, harassed and belittled me several times, and to you, pointing this out is an insult. Ridiculous. Please behave better in the real world. Saying “I won’t stop until you do” is doubly pointless since each time I actually stop, you retaliate because you’re the one who wants the last word. Stop this.Umbrellazebra (talk) 23:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC).


 * Here's what I'll do, if you apologize and stop this irrational, toxic and ridiculous comments I will let this go, I'll also apologize for initially calling you sock puppetry. There's nothing fun about this, and I think you're running out of synonyms (insulted, scolded, harassed and belittled...did you use a thesaurus) to describe your baseless claim about me. Stop your insults, stop bullying me. I do not condone such behaviour. This is so trivial and like I said, it's really not worth you getting so mad over this. There are much larger things in life. In your own words "In real life, if you insult people, they do tend to take it personally.", like I said, your earlier comments with blatant sexism is really inappropriate and reflects really badly on you. I hope in real life you're a good person and don't taunt others and expect others to reply nicely. This is my second time proposing a peace offering. And no you do not have to quit Wikipedia, you're not bad at English and I commend you that. Like I said, I'm willing to be nice. I do sense a bit of trolling from both of us so let's be serious now. I know you like Takeshi, I do agree with making the article better. We can either collaborate to make it that way, or you want to keep on this senseless talk it's up to you.Jjj84206 (talk) 23:36, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I haven’t used a thesaurus in years, since I am actually an intelligent person despite your attempts to cast me as some kind of child. Tell me, would you apologise to someone who’s wasted hours of your time in a senseless way? I’m certainly sorry for the time wasted. If you think you’ve been bullied, how exactly do you think I feel? If anything I said was blatant sexism, as you claim, then what you’ve continually levelled against me is blatant ageism- berating me for being a kid, a child, immature, etc, and expecting me to feel like a dumb kid. I just don’t have the energy for this any longer. I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t want to continue, but you’ll only be satisfied with an apology when you’ve subjected me to bullying. If your peace offering is sincere, then I’m stopping here and I hope we never have to speak again. We never should have wasted so much time- that, I regret. Can we end this now? I hope so. Using words like “stop your insults and stop bullying me” on the person you’ve insulted and bullied seems rather shallow. Please stop this now. Asking you not to cast aspersions on someone without giving that person a right of reply is not an insult, by the way. That’s how this began. I’m sure you won’t like this, so I would rather leave the platform than put up with this appalling experience any longer.


 * You see, I know you're just playing but at the same time you sound quite serious. I can't tell if you're actually being funny or you're actually serious with the accusations above. I don't consider it as waste of time to be honest. It takes me no less than 5 minutes to reply you. And I don't know if you noticed, some of the words I used I just directly copied from you such as "stop your insults stop bullying" and so on. If you're actually serious with the bullying stuff, I don't know what to say because there has been 0 bullying involved. And I said you're acting like a kid, didn't say that you are actually a kid (maybe you are, I don't know). That being said, your sexism is extremely serious. Do not do that in real life. Seriously. That was very inappropriate. And hey, you've been saying you want to leave the platform like what 10 times now, I really don't think you'll do it. You're going to reply again saying you've been bullied and such.Jjj84206 (talk) 00:32, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Welcome!
Hello, Umbrellazebra, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of your recent edits to the page Sons of the Neon Night did not conform to Wikipedia's verifiability policy, and may have been removed. Wikipedia articles should refer only to facts and interpretations verified in reliable, reputable print or online sources or in other reliable media. Always provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. Wikipedia also has a related policy against including original research in articles.

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Hi Bovineboy2008,

Thanks for your note and the information on edits. I’m sorry about replying so late, I just got around to checking this page. If I have any questions re edits, I will post them here.

Umbrellazebra (talk) 16:12, 9 August 2021 (UTC).

Codes of Conduct
This is just a very short note to request that from now on, the discussions on this talk page should remain civil and polite. There’s no sense in rudeness or condescension, and all discussions should be conversations. Basically, I’m making a request for civility. Umbrellazebra (talk) 20:38, 9 August 2021 (UTC).


 * I see, what happens to never making any edits in the future? Hmm, is this comment going to be considered "not civil" and "impolite", just help me understand. It just seems like any opinion that you disagree with is somehow breaking "Codes of Conduct". And by the way, We all follow Talk page guidelines, you don't dictate that.Jjj84206 (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Any further insults or opinions? Stop this, and behave civilly.Umbrellazebra (talk) 23:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC).


 * okay now I know you're for sure joking. Lol. Good one. CheersJjj84206 (talk) 23:36, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Support for Umbrellazebra
Came across this while thinking about making an edit to the Kaneshiro page. I have to say I’m pretty shocked that Umbrellazebra was bullied off Wikipedia. I read all the comments. It was a clear case of bullying by another user who clearly wanted the last word and was prepared to mock, threaten and insult a fellow user, Umbrellazebra, who just tried to end an argument many times. I’m a new user and I find this really discouraging. The disrespect shown to Umbrellazebra was shameful and I hope she’s doing okay. I hope putting this note here doesn’t make me a target now. Bullying is not okay and trying to intimidate another person by saying they’re bullying you when you’re so obviously after the last word at any cost, even when that means upsetting someone who’s clearly distressed by the way you’re treating them, is mean spirited.I don’t know if we’re supposed to stick up for another user here, but it was clear that Umbrellazebra was subjected to bullying and insults by a user who called her juvenile while behaving like a school bully. I’m not interested in getting into an argument with them, so I’m just going to say that I support Umbrellazebra 100%. Applehornet (talk) 02:56, 10 August 2021 (UTC).


 * Clearly a user created by Umbrellazebra. Please note that this is an example of Sockpuppetry, which include: Creating new accounts to avoid detection or sanctions, Persuading friends or colleagues to create accounts for the purpose of supporting one side of a dispute (usually called meatpuppetry, Creating new accounts to avoid detection or sanctions. Misuse of multiple accounts is a serious breach of community trust. It may lead to: a block of all related accounts. Please stop what you're doing. I let it slide because you are new. But this is seriously testing my patience and I'll have no choice to report this.Jjj84206 (talk) 03:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Why am I not surprised? I don’t know who you think I am, but according to you, everyone is a sock puppet worth threatening. People can defend other people when they see a case of intimidation. I knew this would make me a target. Applehornet (talk) 03:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC).


 * I've asked them to launch an investigation on this. Stop abusing Wikipedia.Jjj84206 (talk) 03:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

If you have to threaten another person so you get the last word, I’m not going to dignify this with further responses. I’m out of here. Sorry for trying to do a small, decent thing. Applehornet (talk) 03:27, 10 August 2021 (UTC).


 * No one is trying to threaten you. You're abusing Wikipedia, I initially wanted to believe that you weren't engaged in sockpuppetry, but this only solidifies that you do.Jjj84206 (talk) 03:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Refusing to dignify threats with multiple responses is not sock puppetry. It’s human nature. I don’t have to defend myself to you. It’s not worth the time. I’m positive that you’ll take that as puppetry too. Applehornet (talk) 03:32, 10 August 2021 (UTC).


 * Sorry I don't understand what you're saying. I think I'm done with you. I'm going to follow Dispute resolution, where it states: "Disengaging is particularly helpful when in dispute with new users, as it gives them a chance to familiarise themselves with Wikipedia's policies and culture." I'm going to leave this here. But if you ever make any further unsubstantiated claim regarding bullying or make further sexist comments, or try to create new accounts to make those false claims, I will not tolerate it. Let's leave it at that.Jjj84206 (talk) 03:37, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

How have I been sexist in the 6 sentences I’ve addressed to you? I chose to disengage with you as the previous user did, but your insistence on pursuing people until you’re given the last word is pretty amusing. See ya. You’re really not worth the effort. No one’s abusing the site. People come to make honest edits where they can but they probably never expect to be singled out by others based on nothing. No one has the time for this and I’m not about to give you mine. If you want the last word, take it. It’s worthless and all I did was point out that someone was treated badly. If this angers you, it’s your business. You won’t hear from me again but I suspect you’ll be replying to this because you have to. I’m out.Applehornet (talk) 03:45, 10 August 2021 (UTC).

September 2021
Hello, Umbrellazebra, welcome to Wikipedia and thank you for your contributions. Your editing pattern indicates that you may be using multiple accounts or coordinating editing with people outside Wikipedia. Our policy on multiple accounts usually does not allow this, and users who misuse multiple accounts may be blocked from editing. If you operate multiple accounts directly or with the help of another person, please disclose these connections. Thank you. GeneralNotability (talk) 23:10, 18 September 2021 (UTC)