User talk:Umumu/Archive April,2010

Your Hungary/Romania question.
Hi, you asked a question on my talk page.

I don't have the specialist knowledge. Try asking your question at:
 * Wikiproject Hungary discussion and/or
 * Wikiproject Romania discussion.

Hope that's of help.  Esowteric + Talk  10:53, 24 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd say that if the location is in Romania, the Romanian name should occur first, with the Hungarian name second (option 1). Similar to how the name of the Dutch city of Leeuwarden is treated in that article. The city is in the Netherlands, so its Dutch name is given and is the article title. It is the capital of the province of Friesland, so its name in Stadtsfries (a dialect) and West Frisian (a recognised provincial language) are also given. Mjroots (talk) 11:20, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks(Umumu (talk) 11:22, 24 March 2010 (UTC))
 * I'm afraid I can only echo the above and recommend the links provided by Esowteric. Sorry I can't help further. Pedro : Chat  11:30, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I've clarified what I meant at ANI - it was option 1. Mjroots (talk) 07:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Raised at ANI
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. - I've raised the issue at ANI in order to centralise it. It may be that the discussion is moved elsewhere. You may wish to inform other editors about this discussion whether they support your view or oppose it, in order that all have a chance to participate. Mjroots (talk) 09:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

SPI
I've mentioned at ANI that Rokarudi has opened the SPI. Personally, I don't think that there is any sockpuppetry involved, but I'm not experienced in these matters. If you are innocent, then you have nothing to worry about. False accusations of sockpuppety may be seen as disruptive and it is possible that other admins will take this further. I think I've done about all I can over this matter now. Mjroots (talk) 08:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Hunyadi - Romanian
Modern sources  -  I avoided Romanian sources (who suggest in their integrality the Romanian origin), not to be said that they are biased

1. "it may be taken as proved that the family of Hunyadi was of Rumanian origin" Catholic Encyclopedia    (neutral source)

2. "a petty Transylvanian nobleman of Romanian descent, Hunyadi" Babinger, Franz. et al. Mehmed the Conqueror and His Time. Princeton University Press. 2nd Edition. 1992. page. 20 (neutral source)

3. "He had risen from small beginnings; son of a lesser noble of Vlach origin" Macartney, C. A.: Hungary - A Short History (neutral source)

4. "Though of Vlach descent, Janos was a Magyar magnate from Transylvania,"  Hungary, a nation of contradictionsBy Iván Völgyes (Hungarian source)

5. "Johannes de Hunyad may equally be called Iancu de Hunedoara (Romanian) or János Hunyadi (Hungarian), because he was born a Romanian, but became a Hungarian nobleman and also regent of Hungary.” The realm of St. Stephen: a history of medieval Hungary, 895-1526 - Pál Engel,Pal Engel,Andrew Ayton,Tamás Pálosfalvi [] (Hungarian source)

6. "a Magyarized Romanian from Transylvania, János Hunyadi, became regent of Hungary." Ronald D. Bachman, ed. Romania: A Country Study. Washington: GPO for the Library of Congress, 1989 http://countrystudies.us/romania/8.htm (neutral source)

7. "son of a lesser noble of Vlach origin"  Hungary; a short history By Carlile Aylmer Macartney (neutral source)

8.“Hunyadi was a descendant of a Vlach (Romanian) noble family that had moved to Hungary." A History of Hungary‎ Peter F. Sugar, Péter Hanák, Tibor Frank - History - 1994 page 63 (Hungarian source)

9."Although some Hungarian historians have tried to disprove that the Hunyadi family was of Vlach (Wallachian) origin, the overwhelming evidence supports the view that they indeed were not Magyars, but rose in the service of the Hungarian king, received nobility, intermarried with Magyar noble families, and thus rose to prominence."  (Hungarian source)

10.“Hungarian general and regent. The son of a Romanian noble granted the estate of Hunyadi in Transylnvaia by King Sigismund…” [Sandler, Stanley. Ground Warfare, an International Encyclopedia, Volume 3. p. 391. http://books.google.ca/books?id=L_xxOM85bD8C&pg=PT427&dq=] (neutral source)

11.“On the face of it, his father was a Wallachian (Romanian) knight who was awarded the Transylvanian fortress of Vajda-Hunyad for his services to King Sigismund and henceforth went under the name of Hunyadi.” [Bodeleux. Robert and Jeffries, Ian. A History of Eastern Europe: Crisis and Change. P. 197. http://books.google.ca/books?id=6Eh9KQTrOckC&pg=PA197&dq=] (neutral source)

12. “The glorious political and military career of Matthias’s father John Hunyadi marked the social rise of this Romanian family of lesser nobility.” [Vauchez, Andre et al. Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages, Volume 1. Routledge Publishing. 2000. p. 706. http://books.google.com/books?id=qtgotOF0MKQC&pg=PA706&dq=] (neutral source)

13. “Nevertheless, a warlike Romanian elite led by regional voivodes and knyazates still existed around Maramures and other parts of eastern Transylvania, defending these regions against nomad infiltrations well into the 14th century. The great Hunyadi Janos came from such a background.” [Nicolle, David and McBride, Angus. Hungary and the Fall of Eastern Europe, 1000-1568. p. 11. http://books.google.ca/books?id=PmZmOkfkr9oC&pg=PA11&dq=] (neutral source)

14.“Led by their greatest general, János Hunyadi, a Magyarized Romanian noble from Transylvania, in 1441 and 1442 they attacked Murad’s skeleton Balkan forces and penetrated deep into Ottoman territory.” [Hupchick, Dennis P. The Balkans : From Constantinople to Communism. New York, NY, USA: Palgrave Macmillan, 2001. p 116.] (neutral source)

15."A Vlach aristrocracy has recently developed [...] The great Hunyadi Janos came from suckh a bbackground" Hungary and the fall of Eastern Europe 1000-1568, By David Nicolle, Angus McBride (neutral source)

16.“John Hunyadi's Romanian origins were not forgotten. Quite apart from the “de Hunyad” name, foreign historical narratives often refer to him as “John the Romanian”.” [Tringli, István. “King Matthias and the Medieval Hungarian State”. The Hungarian Quarterly, 190, 2008. http://www.eurozine.com/journals/hq/issue/2008-07-03.html] (neutral source)

17."Vlach father" East Central Europe in the Middle Ages, 1000-1500 By Jean W. Sedlar  "Vlach father"

18 "Hunyadi azonban megmenekült, mert át tudta vágni magát az ellenséges ... bevándorolt Hunyadi Vajk vlachkenéz" A két Hunyadi‎ - Page 50 Dezső Dümmerth - History - 1985 - 277 pages  (Hungarian source)

19. "It is hardly coincidental that the mass ennoblement of Romanian cnezes is linked to the name of János Hunyadi, for this great general had grown up among them and understood their aspirations" http://mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/84.html "History of Transylvania" and is written by "INSTITUTE OF HISTORY OF THE HUNGARIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCES". (neutral source)

20. Encyclopædia Britannica |http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/277182/Janos-Hunyadi "Janos Hunyadi"]

21. The Encyclopedia Americana, Volume 23‎ - Page 669 Janos Hunyadi ( John of Hunedoara), the governor of Transylvania, who was of Romanian origin; (neutral source)

22. "immigrated with his father from Wallachia," (neutral source)

23. "the son of a Romanian noble" Ground warfare: an international encyclopedia, Volume 1  By Stanley Sandler  (neutral source)

24. "the indisputable Romanian origin of John Hunyadi"

25. "Hungary's greatest military figure, John *Hunyadi, a native of Transylvania born to a family of lesser nobility of Romanian origin" ( Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages)

26. "John Hunyadi, a Hungarian nobleman of Romanian descent, led Hungarians in defeating the Ottoman Empire in 1456" ( Encyclopedia of Slavic Myth and Legend:

27. "his father was a Wallachian (Romanian) knight" ( A history of eastern Europe: crisis and change De Robert Bideleux,Ian Jeffries)

28. "Even though Biondo knows of the Rumanian descent of János Hunyadi" http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/chk/chk01.pdf (Hungarian source)

29. "A Transylvanian general born of a Wallachian (Romanian) father" Hungary, By Steve Fallon, Neal Bedford (neutral source)

30. "Although some Hungarian historians have tried to disprove that the Hunyadi family was of Vlach (Wallachian) origin, the overwhelming evidence supports the view that they indeed were not Magyars" Transylvania: the roots of ethnic conflict By John F. Cadzow, Andrew Ludányi, Louis J. Éltető (Hungarian source)

31. "son of a lesser noble of Vlach origin" Edinburgh University publications: History, philosophy and economics, Issue 13 By University of Edinburgh (neutral source)

32. "It was a Romanian Vlach from Transylvania, known in Romania as Iancu of Hunedoara, but called Janos Hunyadi by Hungarians, who became Hungary's regent " The patriots' revolution: how Eastern Europe toppled communism, By Mark Frankland(neutral source)

33. "son of Vajk, a Vlach" http://books.google.com/books?id=8OQ4AAAAIAAJ&q=hunyadi+vlach&dq=hunyadi+vlach&lr=&cd=23

34. "JANOS HUNYADI (c. 1387-1456), Hungarian statesman and warrior, was the son of Vojk, a Magyarized Vlach who married Elizabeth Morzsinay." Bitannica 1911

History of the Hungarian nation By Domokos G. Kosáry, Steven Béla Várdy, Danubian Research Center (Hungarian source)

The Pecheneg & Cuman etchnic origin of early Romanian aristocracy
Look the ethnicity of the founder's of Romanian principalities. They were Cumans. The territory of Wallachia and Moldavia belongs to Pechenegs and latter they belonged to the Cumans. Please learn more history. Just read the Pechenegs and Cumans article! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.0.251.238 (talk) 10:23, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

QUESTION: What do you think about the cuman origin of medieval romanian nobles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.182.75.137 (talk) 06:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Wallachia House of Basarab was the first ruling dynasty of Wallachia

The Basarabs (also Bazarabs or Bazaraads) were a family which had an important role in the establishing of the Principality of Wallachia

The dynasty was named after Basarab I, who gained the independence of Wallachia from the Kingdom of Hungary.

Basarab I's name was originally Basarabai and lost the ending -a when it was borrowed into Romanian. The name is of Cuman or Pecheneg origin and most likely meant "father ruler". Basar was the present participle of the verb "to rule", derivatives attested in both old and modern Kypchak languages. The Romanian historian Nicolae Iorga believed the second part of the name, -aba ("father"), to be an honorary title, as recognizable in many Cuman names, such as Terteroba, Arslanapa, and Ursoba.

Basarab's father Thocomerius of Wallachia also bore a Cuman name, identified as Toq-tämir, a rather common Cuman and Tatar name in the 13th century. The Russian chronicles around 1295 refer to a Toktomer, a prince of the Mongol Empire present in Crimea.

While the names indicate a Cuman (or Pecheneg) origin, contemporaries constantly identified Basarab as a Vlach. Charles I of Hungary speaks of him as "Bazarab infidelis Olacus noster" ("Bazarab, our treacherous Vlach").

"Vajk", the name of Stephen I of Hungary, was also of Cuman origin

Moldavia the members of the House of Muşat, the first ruling dynasty, were ethnic Vlachs

John Hunyadi was ethnic Romanian (Umumu (talk) 07:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC)) Again, why do you think that Hunyadi's mother was wallachian (The "Romanian" term did not exist in medieval age) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.0.251.130 (talk) 10:25, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

About Hunyadi's Vlach(Romanian) mother: "Opulenti Boyeronis (i. e. Valachi nobilis) filiam – ex genere Morsinai – Transalpinus quidam Boyero, nomine Woyk, qui ob simultates valachicas huc (in Transilvaniam) se patriis, ex oris receperat, venustate Morsinaianae captus, duxit. – Elisabetham, vocatam ferunt;" (medieval text)

You're wrong again. terrm "Romanian" existed. "The self-designation of Romanians as Romans is mentioned in scholarly works as early as the 16th century by mainly Italian humanists travelling in Transylvania, Moldavia and Walachia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Romania (Umumu (talk) 10:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC))

The dubius reference
The reference you keep re-adding, is exactly the same which you removed as "dubiuos" Hungarian source. So if it supports your POV it can stay, but when not you are removing it?-- B@xter9 18:50, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It is also confirmed by a Romanian source, so it cannot be a false statement. If I would present only the Romanian source, you would probably say that the Romanian one is biased. But when both sides support something, it means it is true (Umumu (talk) 19:00, 12 April 2010 (UTC))
 * LOL! :D Minutes ago you said that "The text was from a Hungarian (so possibly biased, like Romanian ones)", but when it support your POV it is not? :D Furthermore, as you said (and removed per this) the Romanian source is also biased, so please add a neutral source or I will remove it.-- B@xter9 19:07, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That happens when the Romanian source says X is true, while the Hungarian source says X is not true. But when both of them tell the same thing and there is no contradiction it is obvious that we talk a about a valid information (Umumu (talk) 19:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC))

Creangă
Umumu, I'm afraid I'm going to have to be very blunt here: edits like this one won't fly, and I for one find the brand of Whig history behind them both noxious and tiresome. Once in a while I happen to catch a glimpse of your long record of "simplifying" history in various articles by removing sound info, but I would invite you keep your vendettas where they belong, if you can't be persuaded to renounce them. If you would actually read the article, you will see that Creangă's nationality was, for several decades, Moldavian - he was a subject of the Moldavian monarch, at the very least. This is plain, decent info, with no agenda behind it, and it is not even confusing by any standards. Beyond this aspect, Creangă clearly assumed "Moldavian" as a political identity and an ethos, at least for that part of his life where he is said to have sided with the separatists. This issue requires some familiarity with Romanian history and some basic tact, certainly not Whig history or reductionist ideas. There is no requirement to transform wikipedia into a patriotic tool (for a patriotism that wasn't even Creangă's), nor is there any need to fold back on the narrow and ridiculous sense that "natioanlity" tends to have in the Balkans or wherever else ethnic nationalism is the norm. Have a good day. Dahn (talk) 09:23, 15 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're totally right. I had forgotten that he was born 25 years before the union. My mistake.(Umumu (talk) 09:42, 15 April 2010 (UTC))

Apologies
Yes, you're right: I probably overreacted and misjudged your intention. What got to me was that it was a silent edit marked as a minor one, and this looked like the time-tested revisionism all of us had to deal with in the past. Feel free to archive or erase this message if it should please you. Dahn (talk) 06:20, 16 April 2010 (UTC)