User talk:Underbar dk/Archive16

The Bugle: Issue LXXXI, December 2012
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 09:38, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit notices
Hey, I suddenly thought of using edit notices on some Three Kingdoms articles that IP users frequently edit (Zhuge Liang, Sima Yi, Lü Bu, basically almost all the Dynasty Warriors characters etc). In the notices, we can post a message warning them not to add unsourced dates, not to mix up fact with fiction, etc. This may save us the trouble of having to revert non-constructive edits all the time, and make those users think twice (or more times) before they make any changes. However, edit notices for articles in the mainspace can only be created by admins. So, if you're in favour of this, we can follow the instructions at the bottom of this section and request for edit notices to be created. Before that, we should make a list of the pages where the notices will appear. LDS contact me 05:28, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea. The list of pages would be everything under the Three Kingdoms personage category. _dk (talk) 17:43, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That won't be necessary because it's too tedious to add edit notices for every article on a Three Kingdoms person. Just those pages that IP users frequently edit will do. What I suggest is all the pages in List of Dynasty Warriors characters (excluding the unrelated characters), and pages on the family members of those persons with very big families (e.g. Cao Cao, Sima Yi, Ma Chao etc). See here for my impression of how the notice will look like. Please feel free to make any changes. If all goes well, we can contact an admin for the notices to be created.   LDS  contact me 05:26, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I worry about people who play DW and systematically inserts the birth and death years from the character bios there into Wikipedia. As you may know, not only playable characters gets a bio there, but also everyone with a name that shows up. As for the notice itself, I fear that it may be too long for the impatient drop-in editor to read, so I'd suggest making it more concise. _dk (talk) 10:29, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, but it's a really tedious task and another concern is that not every admin may have the time and patience to add the notice to every single page. Please feel free to make changes to the notice.   LDS  contact me 15:36, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I am under the impression that they have bots to do this sort of thing. I see that the other edit notices (eg. the Israeli-Palestinian 1RR edit notice) are at most 2 or 3 sentences long. I think this is the length we should aim for, or else we will probably face objections from the admins. Then again, is our topic frequently "attacked" enough to warrant treatment akin to the articles about the Middle East? _dk (talk) 16:34, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, as I mentioned earlier, the purpose of having this notice is for our convenience. And indeed, our topic is not vandalised as frequently as others, but the main issues we face are all those non-constructive edits and addition of unsourced and unreliable data. Some people might even accuse us of WP:OWN, but still, I feel that having this notice is justifiable. I agree that the current draft notice is too long, but a few short lines won't be able to send a clear message across. Are there any parts in the notice you feel that we should remove?   LDS  contact me 03:24, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

How about this?

_dk (talk) 09:25, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * It's brief, but doesn't miss out the important points. It looks fine to me.   LDS  contact me 15:24, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If think this is okay then you can send this off to the admins on my behalf. I'm quite busy lately :( _dk (talk) 12:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I've copied the template to my sandbox page and made some minor changes. Alright, I'll contact an admin.   LDS  contact me 14:38, 9 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I asked Nlu for help. Anyway, see his talk page.   LDS  contact me 05:23, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thanks. I should note that the historical records aren't really clear on who actually executed Guan Yu. Shu's record say Sun Quan gave the order after considering that Guan Yu will never surrender for long, but Pei Songzhi the historian argued that he couldn't have given the order on the spot because he was too far away in Jiangling (hence Lü Meng acted on his own). _dk (talk) 03:02, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the undoing of the previous changes, but it had to be done if it continues to contradict the truth on one area when unresolved, thank you again for fixing the last of the problem. Wikipedia stated that the verifiability of accuracy can not fulfill it's preciseness, but it is always better to include less information than include inaccurate information that does not show enough evidence (hence, the reason why I had to step in). If in a lawsuit, the case is closed because there is not enough information and evidence to conclude to who the criminal is: then we could not state either of the defendants as a criminal that plaintiffs had brought upon to demand resolution for the victim(s). If the criminal of causing the eventual collapse of the entire south is really the fault of Lü Meng, then Sun Quan will be falsely and wrongly accused, and public viewers will not know that, vice versa if put in Lü Meng's perspective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anglewhigs (talk • contribs) 15:05, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Please also fix Guan Yu's wikipedia biography in "Defeat and Death" 3rd sentence in the last paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anglewhigs (talk • contribs) 17:50, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

In response to "let it be known that there is no record of sun quan saying guan yu should not be executed", Pei Songzhi's historical argument "that he couldn't have given the order on the spot because he was too far away in Jiangling (hence Lü Meng acted on his own)" is more convincing and logical. If Sun Quan did order the execution of Guan Yu, then he should have no regrets and would not need to deliver the head to Cao Cao to transfer Liu Bei's hate to Cao Cao. It is more believable that Lü Meng acted on his own on Guan Yu's execution. Lü Meng succeeded Zhou Yu's and Lu Su's position with main military command, Sun Quan was in no position to scold or punish Lü Meng, because if he did, then Lü Meng will very likely lead a rebellion (hence, Sun Quan is being threatened politically and had to play nice, just as Emperor Xian of Han having to play nice with Cao Cao, except Emperor Xian was in a hopeless situation). So it is also debatable that Sun Quan secretly ordered to poison or make Lü Meng sick to death so that he can retake the military control and pass it on to someone more reliable and less threatening. This is debatable because Lü Meng died shortly after Guan Yu's death (within 1 year), just as how it is debatable that Cao Cao may have caused Xun Yu's death after Xun Yu's opposition to Cao Cao's ascension to duke. We are considered superstitious if we are to believe that Lü Meng's death in such a short time is heaven's punishment as a direct result from Guan Yu being slayed by him. So since Lü Meng has already committed such an act, there was nothing Sun Quan could do but to play along and to think about how to fix the situation. Since the agent (Lü Meng) has committed the tort, and the company (Wu Kingdom) will be sued as a direct result, Sun Quan as the principal could not sue Lü Meng in return had no choice but to deliver the head to Cao Cao to transfer Liu Bei's hate to Cao Cao (this makes much more psychological sense). So even though you said "let it be known that there is no record of sun quan saying guan yu should not be executed", there is also no record that Lü Meng did not act on his own to kill or cause Guan Yu's death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anglewhigs (talk • contribs) 15:59, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Sheng Man
I am not convinced that Sheng Man was real or even supported as a character in substantial fiction. Do you have a source of any kind? --Nlu (talk) 06:30, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Presumably not. This was two years ago and I don't remember that well. Looking back at the page history, I question my own judgement. _dk (talk) 13:44, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

As it turned out, the situation is more complex than I originally thought when nominating it for deletion. (See my further comments at Articles for deletion/Sheng Man.) Since I'm probably going to be too tired to do further research tonight, anything you (or anyone else) can look into would be greatly appreciated it, although I'll look into it further myself as well, to see if we can tell whether there were two Sheng Xians. (I am not familiar with the earlier Sheng Xian; the later Sheng Xian might not be notable enough.) --Nlu (talk) 03:01, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Empty Fort Strategy
Hey, can you help me check the examples on Empty Fort Strategy? (Ignore the one on the Battle of Mikatagahara.) I read my edits over and over again, but I still have a feeling that something is missing, especially in the Cao Cao example. Thanks. LDS contact me 16:07, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh yes, and the Chu Shi Biaos as well, which I translated a few days ago. Please help me check for errors. Thanks. LDS contact me 16:15, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Cao Cao's use of the strategy is new to me =\. For Chu Shi Biao, it is outside of the timeframe I'm comfortable in, but maybe a note in the lead about how the second Chu Shi Biao has questionable authenticity might be good. _dk (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your suggestion.   LDS  contact me 09:43, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXXII, January 2013
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 13:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Fictional Three Kingdoms people
I intend to nominate most of the articles on this list for deletion on the grounds of WP:NOTABLE and WP:PLOTONLY. Of course, the exceptions include: Diaochan, Lady Wu, Zhou Cang, Guan Suo, Lady Zhurong and those in the "Others" section. What do you think? LDS contact me 15:51, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh yes, and some articles on real historical persons as well. These persons are those who were only mentioned briefly in historical records (a few lines or so) and are not significant at all. Nlu has already started on some. One interesting observation is that many historical figures who have biographies in Records of the Three Kingdoms (see the red links in this section), but do not appear as characters in the Koei games, do not have articles on Wikipedia, whereas, ironically, insignificant persons who appear as characters in the games have articles on them. That's the impact of the Koei games on many people, especially gamers. LDS contact me 15:59, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Welcome, friend, to the wonderful world of systemic bias. A few years ago when our WikiProject was still at its infancy, I brought up the issue of what to do with these 雞肋s. The consensus back then was to deal with them when we need to. Sounds like that moment is now. I say go for it. _dk (talk) 17:32, 24 January 2013 (UTC)


 * It's great to see that you support this idea! I've already started with the articles I created some years ago (when I was still in my "immature" stage). I'll start with the others soon.   LDS  contact me 18:33, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

AD or CE
I'm not going to get into a stupid edit war with you on the South-pointing chariot page.

But you are wrong about "AD" being familiar to every speaker of English, and user of English Wikipedia. Huge numbers of people, mostly in Asia, speak English well enough to use EN.WP, but are not Christians, and are not familiar with "AD". Here's a quotation from the Anno Domini page:


 * Upon its foundation, the Republic of China adopted the Minguo Era, but used the Western calendar for international purposes. The translated term was 西元 ("Western Era"). Later, in 1949, the People's Republic of China abandoned the Chinese calendar completely and adopted 公元 (gōngyuán, "Common Era") for all purposes domestic or foreign.

DOwenWilliams (talk) 16:24, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't need to be lectured on the Chinese usage of era names, go argue with Wikipedia's Manual of Style at WP:BCE. _dk (talk) 01:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * In this case, I have no argument with the Manual of Style. The question is, were you justified in deleting an explanatory note, which was outside some quoted text which it was intended to explain? In my view, it's better to have such a note outside a quotation than to add a Wikilink inside it. The latter is, in a small way, an edit which modifies the quoted text. DOwenWilliams (talk) 16:19, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * We shall respectfully disagree then. _dk (talk) 19:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok. No big deal. :-) DOwenWilliams (talk) 20:57, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

More About Edit Notices
I think I'm done with them. Please let me know if you see new articles or articles I missed. Thanks. --Nlu (talk) 06:41, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

CNY greetings
Hey there, a happy Chinese New Year to you! LDS contact me 16:04, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Gong Hei Fat Choy! _dk (talk) 17:06, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Guo Jia for DYK
I just expanded Guo Jia's article by about six times. I want to nominate it for DYK but I can't think of any interesting fact from the article to serve as the hook. Do you have any suggestions? Also, can you help me check the article for errors? My translation isn't 100% accurate. I'm also thinking of pushing it to GA status but that's a bit slightly far-fetched at the moment. If you've any ideas, just shoot. Thanks. LDS contact me 19:15, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've went through it once with edits, good work. A straight translation of Sanguo zhi is a good start, but is lacking in modern analysis. I think, probably a statement about his abilities in prognosis, if you want to push for a DYK entry. _dk (talk) 11:12, 16 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I intend to use Guo Jia's 十勝十敗 as the hook, and have added it to the lead section. Does it look fine to you?   LDS  contact me 14:08, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yup, as long as the dyk reviewers are okay with it. _dk (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Here it is.   LDS  contact me 15:46, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Cao Zhang
In which of his works did de Crespigny point out the 曹彰/曹章 problem? This was what I found in chapter 3 of Generals of the South:

"The daughter of one of Cao Cao's younger brothers or cousins was given in marriage to Sun Ce's youngest brother Sun Kuang, and Cao Cao's own son, Cao Zhang, married a daughter of Sun Ce's cousin Sun Ben.$74$

$74$ The biography of Cao Zhang is in SGZ 19, 555-56. He was the second son of Cao Cao by his formal wife the Lady Bian." He did not make any reference to "曹章" here.   LDS  contact me 09:49, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, 曹彰 is Lady Bian's second son, so what's the problem here? He makes no reference to "曹章". _dk (talk) 15:10, 22 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The problem lies in this line from Sun Ce's biography in SGZ: [是時袁紹方強，而策並江東，曹公力未能逞，且欲撫之. 乃以弟女配策小弟匡，又為子章取賁女， ...] The name of the "Cao Zhang" whom Sun Ben's daughter married is written as "曹章" in Chinese instead of "曹彰". So, when I first read that line from Sun Ce's biography, I thought it was a different "Cao Zhang". De Crespigny did not point out this difference in the Chinese characters for "Zhang".   LDS  contact me 16:48, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I took that line from SGZ on Chinese Wikisource. I thought it was a typo, but it turned out that it wasn't, after I cross-checked with SGZ on another website.   LDS  contact me 16:53, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * You can consider it as a transcription error on the Wu historian's part. It's not uncommon. De Crespigny's biographical dictionary also says that Sun Ben's daughter married Cao Zhang (as in 曹彰). _dk (talk) 02:25, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXXIII, February 2013
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You might be interested in this
You might be interested in this. LDS contact me 10:05, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

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Article Feedback deployment
Hey Deadkid dk; I'm dropping you this note because you've used the article feedback tool in the last month or so. On Thursday and Friday the tool will be down for a major deployment; it should be up by Saturday, failing anything going wrong, and by Monday if something does :). Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Lu Su
I intend to nominate the article for DYK after the expansion but it doesn't fit the fivefold criteria as of now. Any ideas on how to expand it further? Can you help me check the translations as well? I took some liberties with certain parts that were either too superfluous or too difficult to comprehend. LDS contact me 17:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

You're not wrong in changing "Marquis of Du" to "marquis of a chief village", but we'll need to apply the same changes on other articles as well, for consistency. Since you've already started, can you help me make the necessary changes to the other articles that still use "Marquis of Du" as well? LDS contact me 05:45, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Never mind, I'll do it. LDS contact me 05:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I am scouring the sources to see if there is a more official-sounding translation for 都亭侯, 都鄉侯, etc. _dk (talk) 05:52, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I came up short. Thanks for your efforts in any case. _dk (talk) 06:00, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen any "official" translations for the marquis titles so far, which was why I preferred to maintain the status quo by standardising the translations on all Three Kingdoms articles until we find a better solution. I was also thinking of creating a separate article to explain the titles. But since we've already started with the changes, we might as well continue.   LDS  contact me 06:29, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The status quo "Marquis of Du" is no solution, in my humble opinion. _dk (talk) 06:38, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've standardised 都亭侯, 都鄉侯 and 關內侯 as "Marquis of a Chief Village", "Marquis of a Chief District" and "Secondary Marquis" respectively. Anyway, back to our discussion on Lu Su. Any ideas on how to expand it further?   LDS  contact me 07:06, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * As we've discussed on our friend Kamek's talk page, folklore is a blind spot on our Wikiproject. For Lu Su, maybe a few sentences about how he's the real protagonist of the 單刀赴會 episode? _dk (talk) 07:27, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXXIV, March 2013
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Help needed
Hey, check out this page. Took me two months (with long gaps in between) to finish it. I intend to move it into the mainspace, but I feel that the lead is too short. Besides, there is also one cn tag in this section, which blemishes the page slightly. Can you help me? LDS contact me 16:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

This page can replace all the "Family" sections on the Suns' articles, so I won't have to deal with annoying IP users who keep adding 祖宗/子孫十八代 to those sections. LDS contact me 16:39, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Good work. The lead is good enough for a family tree article like this (see similar ones for the descendents of Confucius, European monarchs, etc.), but if you feel it is too short, you can preface it with why the Sun family is important (imperial clan of the Eastern Wu state, etc.). You can also add a segment about the Sun clan's supposed lineage from Sun Tzu. A source that can help you is de Crespigny's Generals of the South, specifically this chapter which goes into Sun Jian's background. I am unable to help you about Sun Hao's wives since I am not familiar with that period. _dk (talk) 01:59, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

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Cao Rui
Where in Sanguozhi was it mentioned that there were suspicions that Cao Rui was biologically Yuan Xi's son? I didn't revert the IP user's edit on Cao Pi because I checked Guo Nüwang's biography and didn't find anything on this issue. There was also nothing about Yuan Xi in Cao Pi and Cao Rui's biographies. LDS contact me 15:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I am losing my touch. I was fairly sure that it was recorded, but apparently I was wrong. _dk (talk) 16:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You might be correct. Maybe it is mentioned in another person's biography, just that we haven't found it. You know, the problem with Sanguozhi is that sometimes certain information on a person may not necessarily be found in the biography of that person. Did you check de Crespigny's works?   LDS  contact me 17:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * de Crespigny notes that Guo Nuwang did slander Lady Zhen, but this is not elaborated on. She probably didn't use the Yuan Xi arguement though. _dk (talk) 02:24, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Lu Xun
Hi, I just expanded Lu Xun (Three Kingdoms) and nominated it for DYK. Can you help me check the article for errors and make the necessary corrections? Thanks. LDS contact me 10:33, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Um, ordering an attack which caused the death of 1000 civilians is quite different from ordering the massacre of 1000 civilians. _dk (talk) 17:35, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I fixed it. You're right, Lu Xun ordered the attack on Shiyang but the actual killings and capturing of civilians were done on the orders of his subordinate Zhou Jun, who was at the scene. Could this Zhou Jun be the same person as Zhou Yu's nephew? Did de Crespigny mention anything about this?   LDS  contact me 03:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * de Crespigny doesn't focus much on the events after Yiling, so no. There is mentions of Zhou Yu's direct descendents, but nothing on his nephew. _dk (talk) 04:32, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXXV, April 2013
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 15:49, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Battle of Jiangling
Hey, while I was editing the part about the Battle of Jiangling (208) on Guan Yu's article, I got confused about some things on the battle:
 * Liu Bei later pacified the southern commanderies (Wuling, Changsha, Guiyang, Lingling), then Lei Xu from Lujiang (not in Jing Province) brought thousands of men to support Liu Bei. [Liu Bei's biography: 先主表琦為荊州刺史，又南征四郡. 武陵太守金旋、長沙太守韓玄、桂陽太守趙範、零陵太守劉度皆降. ... 廬江雷緒率部曲數萬口稽顙. ]
 * Guan Yu was appointed Administrator of Xiangyang ... then ordered to garrison at the north of the river. [Guan Yu's biography: 先主收江南諸郡，乃封拜元勳，以羽為襄陽太守、盪寇將軍，駐江北. ]

So, was Liu Bei's pacification of the four commanderies part of the Jiangling campaign? Or were they two separate campaigns? The lines from Liu Bei and Guan Yu's biographies seem to suggest so because Guan Yu could garrison at the "Jiangbei", which was probably still under Cao Ren's control during Jiangling.


 * Wen Ping and Yue Jin engaged Guan Yu at Xunkou, attacked his equipage at Han Ford and burnt his boats in Jingcheng. [Wen Ping's biography: 太祖先定荊州，江夏與吳接，民心不安，乃以聘為江夏太守，使典北兵，委以邊事，賜爵關內侯. ... 與樂進討關羽於尋口， ... 又攻羽輜重於漢津，燒其船於荊城. ]

Did this engagement take place after Jiangling? LDS contact me 09:11, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It is hard to determine whether Liu Bei's movements in the southern Jing were part of a coordinated effort with Zhou Yu or just a land grab when the other parties are distracted. If I recall correctly, it was EkmanLi who considered Liu Bei's consolidation of the four Jing commanderies as part of the Jiangling campaign, so you can ask him to clarify. Looking at de Crespigny's Generals of the South, he seemed to suggest that Liu Bei settled the southern Jing as a land grab since he left Zhou Yu to do most of the fighting with Cao Ren, but with this note:

"Immediately after the Battle of the Red Cliffs, Liu Bei transferred a thousand of his own men under Zhang Fei to serve Zhou Yu in the direct attack on Jiangling; for his own part, with two thousand reinforcements from Zhou Yu he proposed to attack northwards up the Han River in an attempt to break Cao Ren's lines of communication: SGZ 54/Wu 9, 1264 PC note 1 quoting Wu lu. It does not appear, however, that anything came of this strategy. Gan Ning's flank attack on Yiling was the decisive break-through in the campaign, and Liu Bei quickly transferred his attention to the southern commanderies. There is no mention of operations against Cao Ren in the biographies of either Liu Bei or of Zhang Fei."

- pp.292-293 here


 * So while Liu Bei and Zhang Fei may have joined the action at Jiangling, but it does not look like taking the southern commanderies were part of a joint strategy against Jiangling. Guan Yu's garrison north of the Yangtze River and Wen Ping's raid probably took place way after Jiangling, after Liu Bei went west. It is not a good idea to take the placement of commas too seriously as an indication of context - punctuations on ancient texts are not trustworthy, since the original texts likely had no such delineation. _dk (talk) 19:26, 26 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I see. Seems like there's a problem with the chronological order of events on the Jiangling page. Let me dig deeper into SGZ for more information first. We'll continue the discussion on the Jiangling talk page.   LDS  contact me 03:16, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

The Bugle
What is the Bugle 99.229.41.79 (talk) 17:43, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * It's the newsletter for the WikiProject Military History. _dk (talk) 17:58, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXXVI, May 2013
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 13:43, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Cao Cao
Hey dk, I'm roughly done with my sandbox page on Cao Cao. I hope you can provide some feedback and suggestions for improvement, especially for the evaluation section. It's still far from being "balanced". Any ideas on how to compress the personal life section? I was thinking of extracting only information on his daily life and the anecdotes and excluding the rest (all that Wei propaganda from the Wei Shu). You can check out User:Lonelydarksky/Sandbox/Cao Cao quotes as well. I might move them to Wikiquotes or Wikisource later. LDS contact me 16:19, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I hope you are going to incorporate parts of the current Cao Cao article, as it contained good information about his literary accomplishments (his annotations to Sun Tzu; and despite his poetry being moved to its own article, this still needs a summary) and his tomb. I think for the personal life section you should just give a summary and quote when necessary, emphasizing the biases of the sources. Then add some information about his wives and concubines, and by extension give a summary of his children, as most "personal life" sections on Wikipedia have. I recommend de Crespigny's new book Imperial Warlord that's essentially a full biography of Cao Cao: it may help you make sense of all the conflicting sources on Cao Cao. _dk (talk) 13:41, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course. The information in my sandbox will replace mainly the life section on the current Cao Cao article. It's an expanded version of the current one, anyway. The evaluation section will be combined with the cultural legacy part. I'll work on that again. I don't have (free) access to de Crespigny's works, except those on the digitalcollections. Can you help me on this? I'm thinking of creating a separate article for the tomb discovery, per the Chinese Wikipedia. What do you think?   LDS  contact me 02:01, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately you will need to go look in the libraries for de Crespigny's print works - I am not aware of any digitalized copy of Imperial Warlord, and I got to read his works from my university's library. If there is enough material for Cao Cao's "tomb" then sure, go right ahead. But this would be a difficult topic to write about since there is so many conflicting opinions, and the whole "discovery" smells fishy to me. I'm not convinced if it was his, personally. _dk (talk) 02:57, 7 June 2013 (UTC)