User talk:Urashimataro/Archive05

Fg2
I saw your post on Fg2's talk page and thought you might want to read this (refers to this). Cla68 (talk) 01:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for taking the trouble to let me know. Terrible news, but at this point I was expecting them. Thanks again.

Re: references in Shaku (Japanese ritual baton)
Unfortunately, there is no clear guideline regarding your question, and it is just based on common sense. It is easier to explain on example. Lets say we have a book "Smith (1996) "Art" Wiley". If I know I shall use only one (or few nearby) pages of that book (because only that piece is relevant to the article) then I would set up a references as

Origin
In fact many cultural things you've edited were originated from ancient China, and are versatile in nowadays China, Korea, and Japan. They are not Japanese special. (Buhuzu (talk) 21:33, 20 October 2009 (UTC))
 * What are you talking about specifically? The article Shaku? My sources didn't mention China, but I am happy you added info about that. Please feel free to edit any article you feel is lacking information, adding what you think are relevant data on the subject, as you did with Shaku and Hōkyōintō. In fact, if you agree, in the future I may ask you to check an article if I suspect it concerns also China. I am for example planning an article about the kanmuri (冠).

Urashima Tarō (talk) 23:30, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Shrine architecture
Hi Urashimataro! I just noticed User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu and was wondering if you are planning to work on articles about Shinto architecture. Since I am collecting info here for the lead section of List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines) (and possibly for Shinto architecture as well), maybe we could join forces somehow. I am still learning, but got quite interested in the subject. bamse (talk) 23:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Bamse. How an earth did you notice User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu? I am indeed planning to write a section about architecture for the Shinto shrine article, which I (almost entirely) wrote and maintain, and rewrite the Shinto architecture article, which is pitiful now.

Having worked a bit with you in the past, I think collaborating would be a fine idea. Have you got any precise idea about what you want to do? I am going to start writing the articles next week. Feel free to steal, ask and add to my user pages. BTW, I have access to material in Japanese you may be interested about architecture and about the 12 Heavenly Warriors :-). I was planning to use it myself sometime. If need be, I can copy and send you material via email. By the way, I don't know much about Shinto, just what I learned writing these few articles. But I am also willing to learn. Urashima Tarō (talk) 04:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * When looking for sources, google send me to your userpage... At the moment I am preparing the lead section for the shrine list. It will be likely a historic introduction: ancient times (shrines in the shape of dwellings/storehouses) -> early Buddhist influences (new roof styles, paint, ornaments,...) -> addition of Ai-no-ma in Momoyama period -> combination of temple, shrine, mausoleum in Edo period (Tosho-gu). This intro could be useful as a starting point for Shinto architecture (which should eventually be more comprehensive) or the architecture section in Shinto shrine. Have a look here which will be updated regularly. There are also some references on that page. When done with the lead section, I'd be interested to write articles about some of the zukuri (nagare-zukuri, hachiman-zukuri,... no preference), or I could help you with Shinto architecture if you wish. Thanks for the offer to send material about architecture. (My Japanese is unfortunately rather limited, so I'd prefer English (German, Dutch) or Japanese sources in computer readable form.) As for the lead section, I think I have enough references. For more detailed articles, I might come back to your offer. bamse (talk) 10:11, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Please let me know if you have any suggestions for List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines). I wonder if it is possible to find the size for all of these buildings in meters (not bays/ken). What do you think? For the major shrines I have a source, but not for the less well known. Another question: by what property shall I order the "Remarks" column? Lastly if you have any pictures to upload for structures which don't have a picture yet, that would be great. There should be lots of pictures floating around of Tōshō-gū (but could not find Honden/Haiden without the fence...), Shimogamo and Kamigamo shrines (photography not allowed (?) close to the honden). Happy editing. bamse (talk) 10:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I completed the first version of the lead section and am looking for comments/suggestions. I am somewhat unsure about the timing of the early events. Do you know if there are commonly accepted dates for: (i) nature worship, (ii) fences/gates around sacred spots and portable shrines (iii) earliest permanent shrines (Ise and Izumo?) ? bamse (talk) 20:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Shrine architecture II
Hi, Bamse. Just a few notes. More later, after I finish work. Checked both files, made minor changes and left some comments. leave me your feedback.

About sources in German: do you know this? Bernhard is a world authority on Japan. I read German but, living in Japan, I don't use it at all, so my capability to speak it is limited.
 * Bernhard Scheid: ''Religion in Japan.

The new material you have written is useful and interesting, and complements nicely what I was planning to write about the various tsukuri (what you have seen). I will probably steal it for my own use :-). I wonder in fact if what such a long intro is really necessary in an article about shrines that are National Treasuries. A much shorter one with links to Shinto shrine and other relevant articles would be more than enough. In other words, the material in my opinion is better placed as an intro to the article about Shinto architecture, before details of the various tsukuri.

About sizes in meters, I will see in my books and at the public library, next time I go. Usually everyone uses bays, and bays vary in length.

by what property shall I order the "Remarks" column? I think the content of the remarks column is too heterogeneous to allow any sensible ordering.

About the pictures, I can take them here in Kamakura, Yokohama and Tokyo if needed.

About the last few questions: I doubt if there is a firm date about nature worship: it is usually supposed to have already existed in the Yayoi period. Same for the second question. Almost certainly fences/gates around sacred spots are almost as old as nature worship. No precise dates can possibly be available.

I can't answer now the last two questions, I will read a book in Japanese I have about religious architecture in Japan and will let you know.

BTW, the perseverance and patience you show in your work are midboggling. Urashima Tarō (talk) 04:57, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, also for the link to Bernhard (which I did not know). Feel free to steal. I agree with your comment about the length, however I am planning to nominate the list at WP:FLC and the lead sections of featured lists seem to be rather descriptive... The present lead section in the article is going to be replaced (so no need to edit it) by the new one from my user page. If bay is the accepted standard of measurement, I guess it is ok to stay with bay (and maybe add a note in the "Usage" section what a bay is). BTW, what is best to use: "ken" or "ma" or "bay"? I'll leave the remarks column unsortable. As for pictures, unfortunately there are no shrine National Treasures in Tokyo, Yokohama or Kamakura. If you have pictures for non-shrine National Treasures to upload that would be great of course. Thanks for adding "Yayoi period". It is precise enough.bamse (talk) 09:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Just a thought: all of the zukuri would profit from illustrations in addition to pictures. I am not good at drawing, are you? Shall we ask the graphics lab and/or the wikiproject architecture for help? Or shall we wait until there is an article (which might motivate potential graphists more)? bamse (talk) 16:11, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I just noticed the two comments you added to the lead section (thanks). As for the first: 祓殿 (purification hall) is written as "haraiden" here and as "haraidono" at JAANUS. Not sure which (if any) is correct. I have rewritten the incorrect sentence ("Later, in the Edo period, shrines were joined with temples and mausoleums in complexes called byō or jingū-ji. Tōshō-gū is an example of this style.") to read: "The Edo period Tōshō-gū is a complex assembly of richly adorned shrines, temples and a mausoleum. Such complexes are a result of syncretism of Buddhism and Shinto. They first appeared during the Heian period, Kitano Tenman-gū, built in 947 for the spirit of Sugawara no Michizane, being the first of these byō or jingū-ji." bamse (talk) 17:44, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Quick question: Do you know what "玉殿" are? There are 5基 of these at Sumiyoshi Shrine (住吉神社), Shimonoseki.bamse (talk) 00:05, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

bays and ken
Because the bays of temples and shrines are visibly different even within the same building and a ken can have several different values anyway, any measurement you get is bound to be inexact. The ken, also, was meant as a measure of proportion as well as a measure of size. I think therefore using measurements in ken is fine.

As a word, I would use ken. Ma is an equivalent, but has many other meanings, including, inconveniently, room, interval and space.

About bay, I think that if the reader has to learn a new word, it might as well be the real thing, and not a made up replacement in a foreign language.


 * Good point. So I stay with ken. bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Photos and images
let's wait until there's an article. Then we can better see what's necessary and be more motivated. I use Photoshop mostly for photos, and my graphic skills are limited. I will take care of the "zukuri" part with schemes and maps, but you are better off asking someone who specializes in that kind of thing for the rest.
 * OK. bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Haraidono
Both my dictionaries (the Kōjien and the Daijisen) give as a reading of those two characters haraedono. Here is the Kōjien's entry.

はらえ‐どの【祓殿】ハラヘ 神社で、祓を行う殿舎.

Since it's universally recognized as the best Japanese dictionary around (and the Daijisen agrees with it), I would use haraedono. If you need the data of the dictionary for referencing, they are on my user page.


 * I'll change for haraedono. bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Edo period Jinguji
I don't know what that sentence means, so I am not in the position to judge if it is correct or not, but it sounds contradictory. You say the jinguji first appeared during the Edo period, but also during the heian period. that important point must e clarified.
 * I corrected my mistake, no more claim that jingu-ji appeared first during the Edo period. bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Italics
Do not forget italics and macrons for Japanese terms. If you nominate the article for Featured status, someone will surely point out if they are missing.
 * I will go through the article and try to fix all italics and macrons.bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. I replied above.bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)