User talk:Utterorama

WP:MESO
Hi Jeff, the above is just a standard welcome-to-wiki template containing links to general info & wikipedia editing guides that you may find useful. And welcome also to WikiProject Mesoamerica (WP:MESO), I see you're one of Prof. Hoopes' KU anthro students. As well as whatever instructions and guides you may have been given for your course & activities here, pls feel welcome to ask questions of, or make any comments to, those of us in WP:MESO and we'll do our best to help out. Either at the WP:MESO discussion board, one of our user talkpages, or at the talk page of the relevant article. All the best, and cheers --cjllw ʘ  TALK 08:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Maya caves
Hi there Utterorama/Jeff. I think your proposal for an article on Maya cave sites would be great, and the way you outlined it sounds pretty reasonable to me. We have a category (Category:Cave sites in Mesoamerican archaeology) which ATM has a handful of articles on individual cave sites, but most of these are underdeveloped and there are of course many missing ones. An overall article on Maya caves would be excellent.

For some general guidelines on how a wikipedia article is generally structured, see this guide to layout, and the manual of style generally.

As far as content for a wikipedia article on the topic goes (over and above whatever instructions/guidelines you've been given for your assignment), I would suggest three broad divisions have potential to be covered: Just some initial suggestions, to make of what you will. Dunno how much detail, time or scope your assignment expects, but any portion really from the above would sound good and whatever scope within the topic (eg archaeological site based only, or whatever) you & your prof decide on, would be fine; it could always be expanded with additional material, or divided into separate articles, later on if needs be.
 * 1) section(s) on the general significance and associations of cave sites to Maya cosmography, mythology, ritual, etc. ie, what they were used for; how they are depicted in iconography and inscriptions; how they fit in to the Maya worldview; similarities and differences between the Maya concept and use of caves, and caves in other Mesoamerican cultures.
 * 2) section(s) on Maya cave use and association across time periods&mdash;Preclassic, Classic, Postclassic, Postconquest, etc. Has use and association changed over time, to what extent is there a continuity, that sort of thing.
 * 3) section(s) on a per-region basis, surveying Maya cave use and distribution across different areas (Peten, Yucatan, Highlands, &c.) and what similarities or differences there may be. Highlighting a few of the most notable individual caves like you suggest would also be a very good idea.

ps. For general queries or to seek general comments, probably the best place would be to pose your question at the WP:MESO discussion board here, since that page is monitored most of the time and there's a good chance someone'll see it. Alternatively, for some specific article use the talk page of that article, or you can ask one of us directly on our user talk pages. I believe your prof has also volunteered the use of his user talkpage User talk:Hoopes as a common discussion ground for the KU assignments.

Cheers, --cjllw ʘ  TALK 03:58, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jeff. While this is a great topic, another student in the class asked me (before you did) about writing on the same topic. I would prefer that you concentrate on the description of a specific cave site rather than the general entry, if you don't mind. Otherwise, get back to me and we can come up with an alternative strategy. Hoopes (talk) 17:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Copan Area Caves, Boquerón
I have decided, as per the advise of Prof. Hoopes, to focus on the particular caves of the Copan region, especially Boquerón. I am in the process of finding as much as I can that relates to the Maya regarding these caves. Any leads or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I will have a draft of the page posted on this page sometime over the weekend. Thanks. Utterorama (talk) 20:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

This Might Help You
Hello, I was searching for some articles for my project but came across two on caves on the Springer database at the KU libraries site. They might be helpful.... Check out this link, it will bring you right to it, but after checking out this article, search for more articles/book chapters on Caves and Maya, because I saw two. http://www.springerlink.com.www2.lib.ku.edu:2048/content/n27881045r011255/?p=9ecdc4a345f245ed90414fc41ffe2cbb&pi=28 Archaeochica (talk) 03:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC) (Anne Egitto)

New Topic and Draft: Talgua Cave
Boqueron ended up being a seemingly impossible place to find information on, so I have completed an article on the non-Mayan (but very closely related) site of the Talgua Cave. Below is the draft. Any comments are appreciated. I will be going through to make sure that references and hyperlinks are integrated in the Wiki fashion. Also, I am waiting on permission from one of the principle investigators to use some of his photos.

=Talgua Cave=

Talgua Cave, (“The Cave of the Glowing Skulls”; “Cueva del Rio Talgua”), is a cave located in the Olancho Valley in the municipality of Catacamas in northeastern Honduras. The misnomer “The Cave of the Glowing Skulls” was given to the cave because of the way that light reflects off of the calcite deposits found on the skeletal remains found there. The site has gained the interest of archaeologists studying cave burials of Central America and of Mesoamerica as one of the most extensive Early to Middle Pre-Classic (~1000-900 BCE in this case) ossuary cave sites currently known to have been in contact with the Maya societies of nearby Mesoamerica. It provides many valuable clues to how the inhabitants of the Talgua Cave may have been an important link between Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica and parts further south and east in Central America and extending into those societies in northern South America and the Andes.

Modern Discovery
For generations, residents of the nearby areas had known of and visited the cave. The ossuary chamber, however, remained undiscovered until April, 1994. Two Hondurans, Jorge Yáñez and Desiderio Reyes, and two American Peace Corps volunteers, Greg Cabe and Tim Berg, were exploring the cave on the east bank of the Talgua River, about four miles from the city of Catacamas, when they first saw human skeletal remains about 2,000 feet inside the cave. After the initial discovery of the remains, James Brady, professor of anthropology at California State University, Los Angeles and George Hasemann, head of the archaeology section of  Instituto Hondureño Antropología e Historia in Tegucigalpa began investigating the historical implications of the site related to the inhabitants of this region and ancient northeastern Honduras cave burials.

Archaeological Discoveries of the cave
Traditionally, the majority of the archaeological focus in Honduras has been in the Maya ruins of Copán, the pinnacle of which is normally associated with the Maya Classic period (~200-900 CE). The recent discovery of the Talgua funerary site has been dated using radiocarbon dating to the Early to Middle Pre-Classic period (~1000 BCE). This type of burial site is normally seen as corresponding to some advancing form of social complexity, which greatly increases the site’s appeal to those interested in the study of societal development in Pre-Columbian Central and Mesoamerica and those societies interacting with the Maya.

During the initial investigation following the discovery of the main ossuary chamber within the cave, another tunnel containing three passageways was found. Within the primary ossuary chamber and the three additional passageways, 23 deposits containing human skeletal remains were discovered, at least 20 of which contained the remains of more than one person. All remains were described as appearing to be secondary burials that were moved from their initial burial sites. The bones were most likely packaged in cloth material and carried into the cave through an old entrance no longer available. Further analysis indicated that the flesh had been removed and the bones were placed in small bundles before arrival to the cave. All of the bones were painted with a red pigment (determined through x-ray diffraction to be red ocher with numerous iron oxides and including hematite). The pigment was also splattered on the ground and walls surrounding the cave, which appears to be due to its rapid and liberal application. All skeletal remains were preserved in and cemented to the ground by calcite.

The water level within the cave made the remains found to be in two different contexts. Natural deterioration due to dripping and damage from vandalism had affected greatly those burials found on ledges and above the water level. However, all of the offerings found in the cave are associated with the burials found above the water line. Burials below the water line were found to be within relatively deep (~ 3 feet) rimstone dams.

In addition to the human skeletal remains, there were at least 20 intact and restorable ceramic vessels found in the cave. At least one of the vessels was “ceremonially killed” by having had a hole punched in the bottom of it. Many of the vessels were positioned in a manner resembling several cave burials at the site of Copán. The investigators of the site, however, have found evidence in further social stratification in the relationships of the vessels to the human remains.

The People of Talgua
Determining the identity and languages of the people whose remains are located in the Talgua Cave has been a complicated and difficult endeavor due to the fact that Rio Talgua, described during the period following the Spanish Conquest, fell on the border of a number of ethnic groups. A Spanish missionary named Father Fernando Espino described the Olancho Valley to be an area containing “more than two-hundred different nations and languages” in 1674. Although there are numerous links between the people of Talgua and the Maya cultures, the site is definitively and categorically not a Mayan site due to location and spoken language.

Two of the most likely candidates for the lineage of the people at Talgua are the Lenca people and the Pech People (Paya). The Lenca people are generally considered to be Mesoamerican and are now spread among the following western Honduran Municipalities: La Paz Department, Comayagua Department, Intibucá Department, Lempira Department and Santa Bárbara Department. Although, evidence of Pre-Colombian Lencan culture can be traced to the Olancho Valley (Salinas). Pech people, who speak a variation of the Chibchan languages of South America, can still be found in the Olancho Department in the area surrounding the site and along the Rio Talgua, as well as in the Colón Department. Other candidates for descendents include the Tawahka and the Tol people

Despite the difficulty of determining for certain the exact identity of the inhabitants of Talgua, many aspects of their society can be determined with some certainty. Based on finds at the Talgua Cave and at the Talgua Village Site, a definite affiliation with Mesoamerica and the Maya living in the area of Copán has been determined. The people at Talgua were linked in trade with the Maya and, reflected in many of the objects and architecture of the Talgua area, had many similarities to the Maya of the period. In the words of one of the principle investigators of the site, James E. Brady: “To put the Talgua site into Maya perspective, the Talgua people may have been interacting with the Maya and had developed a level of civilization equal to any society known in the Maya area at that time.”

A surprising find relating to analysis of the bone protein stable isotopes is that the people buried in the cave did not eat an abundance of maize, the cultivation of which is normally seen as corresponding to advancements in social complexity and stratification within Pre-Columbian societies of Mesoamerica and surrounding areas. Instead, researchers suspect that manioc, or cassava root may have been the society’s primary means of subsistence.

Talgua Village Site
Along an ancient terrace on the west bank of the Rio Talgua, within a half mile of the cave entrance, a settlement has been unearthed that has since been determined to be the largest site in the country of Honduras from the period. The site extends for over a third of a mile and contains at least 100 standing structures. Many aspects of the settlement (i.e., size, shape, distribution, central plazas, etc.) resemble those of many sites in southeastern Mesoamerica.

Ceramics collected at the settlement were similar to those found at the ossuary, which links the settlement area to the ossuary as the probable area of primary habitation for those people found buried in the Talgua Cave. Ceramics from other sites in Honduras were of very little help in determining the chronology of the Talgua site because the northeast region of Honduras developed independently of other regions throughout the majority of its prehistory.

Talgua Trade
Architectural patterns and objects found at the Talgua settlement provide indicators of both social stratification and trade networks with the Maya. Jade and marble vessels found at the site are seen as items of prestige and clues to the degree of social stratification. In addition to the prestige items found, there were numerous items made of obsidian, which would have come from the Maya highland regions and jade from Maya areas of Guatemala. Whereas, items found to be made out of green, jade-like rocks indigenous to northeast Honduras were found not to be Jade at all, but jadeites or green rocks with a distinct talc feel (Cuddy 122). In further exemplification of the role of this area as a important buffer zone between Mesoamerica and southern Central and South America, Doris Stone (1966) has pointed out that much of the area’s later fascination with gold came from the south and fascination with jade came from the Maya in the north. Items and beads of greenstone were in full production by around 500 CE.

The Cuyamel ceramics found in northeastern Honduras are contemporaneous with the Olmec rise in the Middle Pre-classic period. It has not been definitively determined that Olmec art and culture would have spread to northeastern Honduras during this time period. However, the ceramics are thought to have stylistic similarities to other Pre-Classic Mesoamerican ceramics and the presence of Olmec imagery is documented at Early Pre-Classic villages in northeastern, coastal Honduras, such as Puerto Escondido.

Although not much can be said definitively about trade with Maya during the Early to Middle Pre-Classic, other than that it occurred, there are other, better-documented cases of Maya trade with northeastern Honduras during later periods. For example, the site of Naco was involved in steady trade with Maya areas of the Yucatán and may have been an intermediary trade location between the Maya and other cultures of Central America just prior to arrival of the Spaniards. =Notes=

=Links=

1.	Brief description of Brady's archaeological approaches:

2.     NY Times Article on discovery of caves:

3.     Link to U. Toledo Talgua Village site:

4.     Interactive atlas to Talgua sites:

5.     Happ Family Talgua photo gallery:

6.     "Cave of the Glowing Skulls" essay by Jason Anderson

=References=

1.	Brady, James E. and Hasemann, George and Fogarty, John H. (1995). “Buried Secrets, Luminous Find.” Américas. Vol. 47, issue 4

2.	Cuddy, Thomas W. (2007). Political Identity and Archaeology in Northeast Honduras. Boulder, Colorado. The University Press of Colorado.

3.	Joyce, Rosemary A. (1993) “A Key to Ulúa Polychromes” in Pottery of Prehistoric Honduras, edited by J. Henderson and M. Beaudry-Corbett, pp. 257-280. UCLA Institute for Archaeology Monograph 35. University of California, Los Angeles.

4.	Salinas, Iris Milady (1991). Arquitectura de los Grupos Étnicos de Honduras. Tegucigalpa. Editorial Guaymuras S.A.

5.	Stone, Doris and Carlos Balser. (1965). “Incised Stone Disks from the Atlantic Watershed of Costa Rica” in American Antiquity 30(3): 310-329.

Image licensing
Hi there Utterorama. Just to note, those images you've uploaded to wiki for the Talgua cave article, image:Talgua Inner Cave.gif, image:Talgua Map.gif and image:Skulls bones and pots from Talgua Cave.gif, currently lack any information about their licensing/copyright status or their source. Per wikipedia's image use policy both are needed, and without either pretty soon some bot will come along and tag them to be deleted.

What they'll need is to be marked with an appropriate image licensing tag, if their licensing status permits. You'll also need to indicate the source you obtained them from.

In addition to that information, because of copyright laws and wikimedia's own licensing policy, we only allow imgs with a licensing status that is compatible with the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL), with some exceptions such as 'fair use' (I don't think that applies here).

I guess you are not the copyright holder for those imgs, and doesn't look like they'd be public domain. Assuming then that someone else holds the copyright, and they have not already explicitly relinquished the copyright under some free licensing term, then to be retained you'd need to set about seeking their permission to release under a free license, see here for the process. Any questions, let me know & will endeavour to help out. Regards, --cjllw ʘ  TALK 23:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

ps. BTW, nice job on the Talgua cave article, in any case. Thanks! --cjllw ʘ  TALK 23:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)