User talk:VC

Hi VC,

FYI, you actually posted your comments to my user page, not my user talk page. To get to the user talk page from anyone's user page, simply click on the "discuss this page" link in the left-hand vertical frame.

About the determinism stuff---remember, you are free to add whatever you like to the article; you don't need my permission. It would be fine to have a section for "what determinists think," but you should be careful to word it carefully, and not make it too abrupt. People from all over the internet are going to come to find out what determinism is, not what you think the best argument for determinism is.

Also, I am surprised that you think the current article doesn't present a very strong argument for the determinist viewpoint. I have actually been hoping lately that someone with a free will perspective would come along and add something to balance out the page.

My main problem with what you wrote earlier was that it had a sort of urgency to it that made it read more like a letter to the editor than an encyclopedia entry. And, a section of yours that someone else deleted before I could read something like, "Let's not get hung up on..." or something like that. If you read an encyclopedia entry that contained sentences like that, would you want to read it? Again, it should present a balanced perspective, which of course can contain the best arguments made for determinism.

You might think that you and I have different ideas about what an entry should look like, but I think most Wikipedia users would agree that a dispassionate, interesting treatment of the topic is the goal. Try to avoid imperatives, an informal tone, awkward phrasing, unnecessarily strong language, etc. That is part of the fun---challenging yourself to think and write about something objectively when you have already formed your own opinion.

By the way, as you can see you will be alerted (at the top of the screen) every time someone adds something to your talk page, so it works kind of like email.

Patrick Grey Anderson 18:32, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hi VC,

I recorded and erased your email address from my user talk page. This note is just to say that I sympathize with your position. I will readily agree that we can never know anything for sure, but I am amazed at some of the thoughtless arguments used in defense of free will. Again, I think the article is a very good place to make your point, but it just takes a lot of work. If determinism really is more plausible than free will, which we both seem to agree on, then when all of the facts and arguments are presented, a reasonable person will have a hard time not siding with the determinists. To give an analogy--it would be hard to read an objective, factual article about Galileo's discoveries without coming to the conclusion that the Church was misguided and Galileo in the right.

Just out of curiosity---where are you having this debate?

I have found that a very clear and concise argument for determinism can be made as follows:

1) If something influences us, it is either related to our genetic make-up or environment, or else it is not related to our genetic make-up or environment

2) If it is related to our genetic make-up or environment, it is not independent, and therefore conditioned, or determined.

3) If it is unrelated to our genetic make-up or environment, then it is completely unrelated to the concept of "I", and so is an outside influence not attributable to "the will," much as a hand grabbing my own does not constitute an intentional movement of my own hand.

4) Therefore, if "I" do anything, it is determined by the conditions that made me, and existed before my birth (genetics, environment), and if something "not I" causes me to do something, it is not my "will" that is acting.

I have found that no one can offer a meaningful response to this, other than to offer a faith-based argument, or to point out the absurdity inherent in the determinist argument (mentioned at the end of the current article).

Anyway, it is all very interesting. Good luck. Feel free to add whatever you want to the article, and we can figure it out from there.

Patrick Grey Anderson 23:41, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)