User talk:Vadakkan/Karpalakai/Transliteration

Arvind, I appreciate this effort. Your lead is very striking. We had similar issues in Tamil Wikipedia too while trying to transcribe foreign words using Tamil script. Also, differences between Jaffna dialect and TN dialects came to the fore. You might want to have a look at the following too. I've asked Tamil Wikipedians too to comment on this proposal. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * ta:விக்கிபீடியா பேச்சு:நடைக் கையேடு (எழுத்துப்பெயர்ப்பு)
 * ta:விக்கிபீடியா பேச்சு:நடைக் கையேடு (எழுத்துப்பெயர்ப்பு)/தொகுப்பு 01
 * ta:யாழ்ப்பாணத்துப் பேச்சுத் தமிழ்

Arvind, your effort to standardize the transcription of Tamil words is commendable. I think it is important to establish such a standard in wikipedia for regulating transcrition of Tamil words. However, I feel your proposal needs to be properly discussed and certain issues have to be sorted out before it is put in use. I think you have misunderstood the Sri Lankan Tamil pronunciation and your comments on this matter are not correct in many places. probably the discussions which had taken place in Tamil wikipedia might have mislead you. Apart from the above mentioned issue, I have few more comments on your proposal. I will write about it tomorrow. Mayooranathan 18:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This proposal is basically just intended to be something we can use as a starting point, it's not anything anywhere near final version. I am myself rather dissatisfied with some of the suggestions in the proposal.  So your suggestions for change - and general comments - will be very welcome.  I had actually not read the Tamil wikipedia discussion until Sundar's comment (my browser is not capable of displaying Tamil Unicode correctly which makes Tamil wiki very difficult to read).  My comments on Jaffna pronunciation were based on my (very unscientific) observations of the "pechchu Tamil" of Jaffna Tamils I know, so I could very easily be absolutely wrong.  Comments on that too would be very welcome.  -- Arvind 20:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

When we consider the written langue, Sri Lankan Tamil, specifically Jaffna Tamil does not vary much as you noted in your document. I can point out only two instances where SL Tamil differ from the pronunciation that is accepted as correct in TN. When we talk about "Centamil", these are the only differences. There are many differences in spoken language, some of which, I have explained in the article written in ta: wikipedia. The main issues which, we have in ta. Wikipedia is related to the transliteration of English words into Tamil. Using ர for ‘’ta’’ (toranto -> ரொராண்டோ etc.), transliteration of sounds such as vowels ‘’o’’ (ஒலிவ் vs ஆலிவ்), and some others. These issues basically arise from the way both parties pronounce English words. Nothing to do with Tamil. I will come back to this later. Now I will take your Jaffna Tamil related comments one by one. க் - It has been mentioned that in Jaffna, க in the middle of the word pronounced as ha. Yes it is true. I think this is the usual way of pronouncing க in that place. Years ago, I attended a programme where Navalar Nedunjchezhiyan made a speach on this matter. He clearly pointed out that the sounds h and g are there in Tamil. He explained it and it matched exactly the way we use க in Jaffna. As per his speach the g is pronounced only after ங். I feel even in TN those who speak Tamil properly do pronounce it the same way. Listen to BBC Tamil service. You can listen both TN and Jaffna way of pronunciations, including colloquial and Centamizh. I did this today and found all the TN anouncers, pronounce க the same way we do in Jaffna. I give below some words I noticed where க was pronounced as ha.
 * 1) "ழ்"– In Jaffna this is pronounced as ‘’ள்’’, However, this is happening in spoken langue and always considered as wrong and all know the correct pronunciation.
 * 2) ற்– This is the only instance SL Tamil differ from that of TN. When ற் as a pure consonant without the association of a vowel, always pronounced t. No r option. (katpathu, eetpathu, ….). With vowels, such as Ra, Raa, Ri, Rii, Ru etc. it is pronounced as r. However, when the ற் double, even with vowel association it is pronounced as ta, taa, ti, tii etc. (வெற்றி -vetti, கொற்றவன் - kottavan). TN people pronounce these words as "vetri" and "kotravan".

சிக்கல்கள் (sikkalhaL), வருவதாகவும் (varuvathAhavum), நடைபெற்றதாக (nadaipetrathAha), செயலகம் (seyalaham), மூலமாக (mUlamAha), மகிழ்ச்சி (mahizhchchi), வேண்டுகோள் (venduhOl), விரும்புகின்றேன் (virumpuhiREn), வெளியாகும் (veLiyAhum), தகவல் (thahaval), பகுதி (pahuthi), தொகுத்து (thohuththu), நகர் (nahar), தமிழகம் (thamizaham), நாகை (nAhai), ஆகவே (AhavE), குறிப்பாக (kuRippAha), அணுகுமுறை (aNuhumuRai), கழகம் (kazhaham), சமூகம் (samUham), வகையில் (vahaiyil)......

See the quotation below.

''முதலில் மடலின் தலைப்பைத் தமிழ் முறைப்படி ஆங்கிலத்தில் aahamaa என்று பலுக்குங்கள். aagama என்றவுடனே அது வடமொழியோ என்ற மயக்கம் தருகிறது. இப்படித் தவறான பலுக்கலால் வேரறிய முடியாமற் கிடக்கும் தமிழ்ச் சொற்கள் மிகப் பல. சகரத்தைச் ஸகரமாகவும், அண்மைக் காலமாய் ஷகரமாயும் ஒரு சாரார் பலுக்கி, ககரத்தை ga என்று ஆக்கி, நம்முடைய உயிர்த்தரிப்பையே (உச்சரிப்பையே) மாற்றி நாம் கெட்டுக் கிடக்கிறோம். - இராம.கி.''

(muthalil madalin thalaippaith thamizh muRaippadi Angkilaththil aahamaa enRu palukkungkaL. aagamaa enRavudanE athu vadamozhiyO enRa mayakkam tharukiRathu. ippadith thavaRAna palukkalaal vEraRiya mudiyAmat kidakkum thamizhch choRkaL mihappala. saharaththai (ச) saharamAhavum (ஸ), aNmaikkAlaththil shaharamAyum oru sArAr palukki, kaharaththai ga enRu Akki, nammudaiya uyirththarippaiyE (uchchrippaiyE) mARRi nAm kedduk kidakkiROm. - irAma.ki)

It is an extract from a blog named Valavu. You can see the full text here. I also feel so. I think the Sanskrit - Tamil mixed style (manippravaalam) that was popular about a century ago may have lead to these types of pronunciation in TN. Sri Lankan Tamil has not been affected by this style.

(I have more to comment if you don't mind this type of long explanation I will continue.) Mayooranathan 19:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the detailed comments.
 * On ற்ற, as I said in the proposal my understanding is that -tt- is the original pronunciation even though almost nobody in TN uses it now. I hadn't noticed that even ற் was pronounced as -t-.  I don't know if that's a Jaffna innovation or also represents the original pronunciation - it's an interesting issue.
 * What is the Jaffna pronunciation of ட்ட, and how does this differ from the pronunciation of ற்ற?
 * On க, actually, the க becoming ha in the middle of the word also occurs in some TN dialects.  It's certainly true of my (from the Tanjore-region) pronunciation of க in pecchutthamizh and chenthamizh.  In this pronunciation, க is:
 * "g" after all mellinam consonants (that is, after both ங் and ன், not just after ங், so I say "nangu", not "nanhu" or "nanhu" - I'm not sure what the Jaffna pronunciation is).
 * "k" after any vallinam consonant (க், ற், ட்), and
 * "h" after an uyirezhutthu or a idaiyinam consonant.
 * I think this is quite logical because it fits the three classes of consonants quite well, but the reason I said that it was not the original pronunciation was that many in TN have said that the "h" is a vadamozhi sound which did not exist in Tamil originally, and that this is proven by the Tolkappiyam. Unfortunately, I only have Ilampuranar's commentary on Porulathikaram with me, so I'm not in a position to check.  Obviously, I'll only be pleased if my own Tamil is proven to reflect the original pronunciation!
 * Please continue with long explanations, and also feel free to directly make changes (or add an alternative) in the text itself. -- Arvind 21:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And, I was under the impression that it is wrong in enunciating "ற்ற" as -tta-. I've heard my periyappaa do that. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 07:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * G.U. Pope, in his "Handbook of the Tamil Language" gives the pronunciation of Tamil used by educated people when he wrote the book (around 1850). He says that "ற்ற" is pronounced with the tip of the tongue against the ridge of the palate.  So the use of -tt- by your periyappa is probably historically correct! -- Arvind 09:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

On the issue of ற் and ற்ற் I have read in many places (non-Sri Lankan Sources) that indicated, Jaffna pronunciation was the original one. Unfortunately, I cannot recollect the details of those sources now. Recently, I came accross a Tamil book Titled Mozhi Ayvu (மொழி ஆய்வு), written by Dr. S. V Shanmukam (Indian). According to him Sankam period pronunciation was similar to Jaffna pronunciation. Following is a quotation from this book.


 * தமிழகத்தில் பேச்சு மொழியில் -ற்ற்- ஒலி கிடையாது. எழுத்து மொழியில் tt (ற்ற்) tr ஆக (நுனி நா அண்ணக்குரலிலா வல்லொலியும் தட்டொலியும் சேர்ந்தது) உச்சரிக்கப்படுகிறது. ஆனால் அது சங்க காலத்தில் நுனி அண்ணக்குரலிலா இரட்டை வல்லொலியாக உச்சரிக்கப்பட்டது. அது ஆங்கில tt ஒலியோடு ஒத்தது. tt என்ற ஆங்கில எழுத்து, தமிழக மக்களால் நாமடி ஒலியாக -ட்ட்- உச்சரிக்கப்படுவதால் தமிழகத்தில் ட்ட் என்று ஒலிபெயர்ப்புச் செய்யப்படுகின்றது. ஆனால் இலங்கையில் நுனி அண்ணக்குரலிலா இரட்டை வல்லொலியாக உச்சரிக்கப்படுவதால் -ற்ற்- என்று ஒலிபெயர்க்கப்படுகிறது. (I hope your browser can display this.)

If we can take this statement as correct, we can say, pronouncing ற்ற் as tt is not a creation of Jaffna.
 * My browser does not render the vowel signs correctly - for example, "thamizhahatthil pechchu" displays as "thamizhahatthil pasesu" - but I can cope with that for short texts. As I said above and in the proposal, I agree completely on ற்ற, that the correct Tamil pronunciation is -tt- and not -tr-.  There are many other sources which confirm this - not least, the sources which say that in the 1850s ற்ற was pronounced "tta" even in TN by Tamil scholars.  However, all of the sources I have seen - including the quote above - only discuss the pronunciation of ற்ற as -tt- and not about the pronunciation of a *single* ற் as -t- (for example, pronouncing பாற்கடல் as "patkadal" rather than "parkadal").  My question was whether that, too, was part of the original pronunciation of Tamil. -- Arvind 13:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, as I understood from various sources, original pronunciation for ற் is t. I know in TN, people pronounce கற்பு as karppu, similar to கர்ப்பு. In Jaffna this is pronounced as katpu. Mayooranathan 19:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you remember any of them, so I can look them up? I'm interested in the sound-shift between from Proto-Dravidian to Tamil, and the pronunciation of ற் as t has some fairly significant implications for that. -- Arvind 20:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of ட்ட in Jaffna Tamil is excatcly same as in TN. பட்டம் is prounced as pattam. (Please note: The pronunciation of tt here is like in cotton, not similar to the one in fitting).
 * I pronounce the -tt- in "cotton" and "fitting" in exactly the same way, but I have a strongish Tamil accent in my English - I will try to pay attention to how native speakers pronounce the words. However, I've heard some Jaffna Tamils having a "d" sound in the pronunciation of ட்ட which we don't have in TN so that the pronunciation of "வட்டி" sounds a bit like "vaddi".  Do you know what sound I mean? -- Arvind 13:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * In Jaffna, we don't have voised sound for ட்ட. This is always pronounced unvoised as tt. I know how "வட்டி" is pronounced in TN. I think this and many other pronunciations in TN Tamil, involving sounds such as ba, dha, ga, sha etc. are due to strong influence of Sanskrit and other northern languages in recent times. In Jaffna particularly among villagers and old people, usage of these sounds are very low. Words derived from Sanskrit such as Bala, Bhakyam etc. are frequently pronounced as pala and paakkiyam in Jaffna. Still you can find people in Jaffna who use வசு for bus. The point I am trying to make is that the Sri Lankan Tamil had not been exposed to the influence of northern languages, therefore we were able to preserve several of our old Tamil language traditions, including the rules related to the usage of Sanskrit and other similar language words and sounds in Tamil.


 * Further, I feel, (Correct, if I am wrong) in TN, among common people, the differnces between, ர and ற, ன and ண, ல and ள have become very narrow. Mayooranathan 19:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree completely about Jaffna Tamil. In addition to the points you make, many of the forms which people in Jaffna only use in colloquial speech - like the past tense form "சொன்னனான்" - are actually pure Sangam Tamil and actually should be used more in the written language, both in TN and Jaffna.
 * TN Tamil isn't homogenous, and it's hard to make generalisations. In my dialect, for example, we say "vatti" and "paakkiyam", not "bhagyam", and we use words like முகில் and பருகு in conversational speech - but it's not preserved classical forms at anywhere near the level Jaffna Tamil has.  Also in my dialect, the difference between ன and ண, and ல and ள (and ழ) is very marked.  The difference between ர and ற is retained in many words (for example, கற்பு is not pronounced as கர்ப்பு, there is a clear distinction).  There is even a difference between the pronunciation of ந and ன  (as in Malayalam), especially where ன is doubled as ன்ன.     But nowadays you only hear these sort of distinctions among certain sections of the people in Thanjavur, where my family comes from.  In very many parts of TN these distinctions have vanished, and I've heard people even from Madurai say உகாந்து கொல்லுங்க. -- Arvind 20:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding, the transcription of க, you mentioned: ...and the Tolkappiyam itself only distinguishes between the voiced and unvoiced variants of க. I could not varify this, but, the statement of Tholkappiyam indicates that there were only two types of க varients. It may mean, one varient as ka and other g, but it cannot be taken as an evidence to proof the pronunciation of க் as g in all instances except in a few places as you mentioned earlier. Some researchers are of the openion that during the time of Tholkappiyam, the pronunciation of க் as g took place only after ங், and in all other places it was pronounced as k. I strongly suggest that for those who are interested, to [click here] and listen to the pronunciation of க in different places in a word. (I will continue) Mayooranathan 20:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * So what is your suggestion for transcribing க? And out of curiousity, is the க pronounced as "k", "g", or "h" in Jaffna after ன் (in words like நான்கு and மென்கண்)? -- Arvind 13:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Some places ன்க becomes ங்க (நான் + கள் -> நாங்கள்). Therefore in some places after ன், க behave in the same way as if it comes after ங். The words மென்கண், வன்கண், தென்கயிலை, தென்கிழக்கு are pronounced as menkaN, vankaN, thenkayilai, thenkizhakku in Jaffna, not as mengaN, vangan, thengayilai, thengizhakku. I belive using g for க as you initially indicated is not correct, but it is difficult to say what should do instead. The correct pronunciation may be between ha and ka. Mayooranathan 19:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, while as I said above I would say "nangu", I would also say "thenkayilai" and "thenkizhakku". I am fairly sure I have read about the pronunciation of "க" in one of the traditional commentaries on the Tholkappiyam, but I don't remember if it was the urai of Ilampuranar or Chenavaraiyar or somebody else.
 * And thank you for your regular and detailed comments. This is a very interesting discussion. -- Arvind 20:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. The voiced/unvoiced distinction isn't discussed by Ilampuranar, at least, not in any place I can find in his commentary.  This is quite bizarre, because I have seen a number of secondary sources refer back to him.  I have, however, found a discussion in Prof. Ilakkuvanar's Tholkappiyam Araichchi, and I'll update the proposal to reflect this in a few days. -- Arvind 09:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

ன்
ன் as n

''This is a hard palatal n, distinct from the dental ந். The distinction is still important in Malayalam. Tamils tend to mostly pronounce it in the same way as ந் but do pronounce it correctly in a few words (such as words starting in பொன்) although we often don't hear the difference ourselves.''

Comment: I think you are speaking of an alveolar n here, palatal n is ñ. You might want to change this. Jasy jatere (talk) 16:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)