User talk:Vanilla Wizard/Archive 2

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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
Your feedback is requested &#32;at Talk:Afghanistan&#32; on a "Politics, government, and law" request for comment. Thank you for helping out! You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name. Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 03:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Jimmy Dore
In your reverison, you wrote that the Daily Dot "should be cited only if there is enough relevance an due weight to include its content, which there is in this case." How can there be due weight when no other reliable source contains this information? TFD (talk) 13:44, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry for taking a week to get back to you. I have removed this content from the article. I disagreed with your original rationale as it appeared that you believed the problem had something to do with the source being The Daily Dot, as it seemed you thought the text at RSP implied that this outlet should be weighed less than other outlets. However, I do agree with the criticism that there should be more than one outlet covering it, given that another editor at the talk page shared your concern. I did attempt to find other outlets covering this story, but I only found forks of the Daily Dot article, so its notability is tenuous.  Vanilla  Wizard  💙 18:30, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: Wikipedia policies and guidelines request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: Wikipedia policies and guidelines request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback requests from the Feedback Request Service
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Feedback request: Wikipedia policies and guidelines request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: History and geography request for comment
Your feedback is requested &#32;at Talk:La Marseillaise&#32; on a "History and geography" request for comment. Thank you for helping out! You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name. Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 04:30, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Dolly (soft drink) has been accepted
 Dolly (soft drink), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_talk/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Dolly_(soft_drink) help desk] . Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider.

Thanks again, and happy editing! Bkissin (talk) 14:30, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment
Your feedback is requested &#32;at Talk:Founding Fathers of the United States&#32; on a "History and geography" request for comment. Thank you for helping out! You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name. Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 04:30, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Wikipedia policies and guidelines request for comment
Your feedback is requested &#32;at Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard&#32; on a "Wikipedia policies and guidelines" request for comment. Thank you for helping out! You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name. Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 15:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Deletion of Smith userbox
Hi,

I just wanted to say I noticed, and appreciate, your continued attempts to stay civil on the Smith userbox discussion. I guess it’s just good to see it on a discussion about a controversial topic, for once. I’ve been involved in discussions before where people cannot communicate decently because they feel so strongly about the controversy, one way or the other.

I should’ve known it was the userbox being attacked, not the creator, but seeing words like “Nazi” and “Klu Klux Klan” getting thrown around in the early stages of the discussion really filled me with revulsion. I’ve already made reference to my national/ethnic background so I hope you understand why I responded so strongly. Again, I think I understand now it was more an argument about how the box could be perceived rather than an attack on the creator. Thanks for making that distinction.

-- Katan gais (talk) 21:27, 22 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Katangais! I'm usually very self conscious about if my comments look too aggressive in these sorts of discussions, so it's a relief to know that you appreciated how I phrased my criticisms. I took a glance at your userpage before leaving my !vote and could tell that you're an editor who's very interested in studying Africa and who's obviously opposed to apartheid systems, so it would have been very unwarranted to treat you as if you were acting in bad faith.  Vanilla  Wizard  💙 21:40, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: History and geography request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: History and geography request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: History and geography request for comment
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Feedback requests from the Feedback Request Service
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1/0=∞ or not?
Hey! You said 1/0 != ∞. Why is that? I thought that was what I learnt somewhere, but I am no expert on infinity and zero. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:37, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * In mathematics, it is more accurate to say that a number divided by zero is "undefined" as opposed to infinity. Reading up on the Division by zero article, you were actually at least partially correct here, as it mentions that this may generate a positive or negative infinity in computer programming:
 * In computing, a program error may result from an attempt to divide by zero. Depending on the programming environment and the type of number (e.g., floating point, integer) being divided by zero, it may generate positive or negative infinity by the IEEE 754 floating-point standard, generate an exception, generate an error message, cause the program to terminate, result in a special not-a-number value, or crash.
 * So it seems that in programming it can be though not always is infinity, while in mathematics it is "undefined."  Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 20:47, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I feel stupid, I should have looked it up on Division by zero. Thank you for enlightening me! And the computer division is what got me confused, I must've learnt about that somewhere. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:50, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Notification of dispute resolution
Hi Vanilla Wizard, I've brought our discussion about the Flag of Antarctica to dispute resolution since we're not able to reach consensus on the talk page. Please feel free to leave comments in the dispute resolution page. Federalwafer (talk) 13:14, 15 August 2022 (UTC)


 * This is a reminder that there is an open dispute on the Dispute resolution noticeboard. Please respond with your statement before the dispute closes. Thanks. Federalwafer (talk) 17:39, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the reminder, I've since left a statement at the noticeboard. I was a little busy around the time you notified me on the 15th, my apologies. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 19:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Could you please respond to the moderator's question on the Dispute resolution noticeboard? I think that's what we need to move this conversation forward. Thanks. Federalwafer (talk) 12:29, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I've left a response under the "Second statements by editors" section. Hopefully we'll get some closure in the back-and-forth. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 17:00, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment
Your feedback is requested &#32;at Talk:Sinn Féin&#32; on a "History and geography" request for comment. Thank you for helping out! You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name. Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 21:31, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Notice of Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents discussion
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Flag of Antarctica changes
For what it's worth, I too am very frustrated with this process. It's hard not to suspect this feud has become a personal vendetta against me or for the Graham Bartram flag as you continue to add unsourced claims, wholesale revert sourced edits and corrections when you have a dispute about one of the several changes, and defend sources with false claims.

However, I haven't come here to vent but to check about changes to the Flag of Antarctica article. I'm bringing this up here rather than the talk page since this is a wide ranging issue about several changes that have more to do with you and me personally than any specific idea grounded in sources or content. I'd prefer not to have to ask your "permission" to make these edits, but I feel I must as you continue to try to personally manage everything that goes into the page. (Nearly 30 edits in the last few weeks.)

I plan to do the following:


 * Removed the unsourced claim from the lede about "several formal proposals" being made for a flag. (Several designs have been made, but there's no evidence aside from the True South flag that any have been proposed "formally" to any particular body.)

And re-do the following:


 * Correct the link to source 6, Flags over Antarctica
 * Remove the uncited claim "Other British territories in the Antarctic region are the Falkland Islands and South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, which have their own flags (see Flag of the Falkland Islands and Flag of South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands).[citation needed]" which refer to sub-Antarctic territories, not Antarctic territories.
 * Correct the claim and add a source about the symbolism of Tierra del Fuego's blue on its flag

I'm hoping we can resolve this between the two of us, but if you cannot agree to these changes I will raise them at a noticeboard. I'm sure you want as much as I do to put this whole mess behind us.

Federalwafer (talk) 14:32, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * There's a lot to unpack here, so I'll try my best to respond to what you've said.
 * First, I don't have anything personal against you, even though I did imply that you may have acted in bad faith when trying to stop the RFC or change the lede. Second, I've no attachment to the Bartram flag; my opinion of it begins and ends with "I think it's the most recognizable" and nothing more. While I could pull up a year of edits to imply that you may be very invested in making sure readers believe the True South design is the flag of Antarctica, I'd rather not devolve into a back-and-forth over motivations and accusations. There's nothing to be gained from doing that.
 * Next, every link you've provided just takes me to the revision history and not to any specific revision, so unfortunately I don't know what you were trying to show me. As for stating that I am "defending sources with false claims" - I also don't understand this phrasing, it makes it sound as if I'm deliberately or knowingly defending the indefensible, as opposed to me simply disagreeing that the sources contradict the primary source. Do I think the sources I've added were acceptable? Yes, I do. However, as I said at AN/I, this sentence I added really doesn't say anything interesting. I do not mind if it's removed, and given that we've finally been given a third opinion from editors at the RSN, I'm more than happy to remove it myself.
 * You do not need to ask for my "permission" to make any particular change, you only need a consensus. No one "owns" Wikipedia articles, and I do not appreciate the accusations of ownership behavior (again, if we really wanted to go there, there's a stronger argument that you've engaged in such behavior based on the number of edit conflicts you've been involved in at this article over the last year, but I do not actually believe you've attempted to own it).
 * As for every change you mentioned, well as I said, you really did not need to ask for my permission to do any of them. They're all very uncontroversial changes that (I'd hope) could not possibly start an edit conflict. Go right ahead, do everything you mentioned. But in the future, if you believe an edit you have in mind would be controversial, ask at the talk page, please do not go directly to me. You could try BOLDly adding controversial edits yourself per the bold, revert, discuss cycle, or you could start at the talk page to skip the edit warring of the B and R steps of BRD.
 * But I will comment on what you said at the end there - you mentioned that if I didn't agree to this, that you'd raise them at a noticeboard. As I mentioned in my talk page reply to you, the first avenue of conflict resolution is always, always the article talk page. Even if it's a low-visibility article like Flag of Antarctica where few people can realistically be expected to comment. If theoretically I did object to you adding a source about the symbolism of Tierra del Fuego's blue (not that anyone in their right mind ever would object to that), please, remember in the future that step one is the article talk page. Noticeboards don't have enough volunteers to be the first-resort location of every conflict on the encyclopedia. If there's a severe shortage of readily available third opinions (as there often is at Flag of Antarctica), a better method of dispute resolution is an RFC + a lot of patience, not bringing it to the attention of four noticeboards. I feel bad for everyone who's had to deal with the exceptionally lame task of sifting through dozens of paragraphs of back-and-forth bickering over something as small as this. RFCs (or even just regular talk page sections) might not be the fastest route to a third opinion, but clearly neither is bringing it up at noticeboards. How many weeks have we been waiting to resolve this petty dispute? Keep that in mind the next time you find yourself in a content dispute that needs resolving.
 * <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 20:22, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Wikipedia policies and guidelines request for comment
Your feedback is requested &#32;at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)&#32; on a "Wikipedia policies and guidelines" request for comment. Thank you for helping out! You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name. Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 08:30, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment
Your feedback is requested &#32;at Talk:Operation London Bridge&#32; on a "History and geography" request for comment. Thank you for helping out! You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name. Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 17:31, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment
Your feedback is requested &#32;at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles&#32; on a "Politics, government, and law" request for comment. Thank you for helping out! You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name. Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 02:31, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Strike request
Hello. I have honored your strike request on the Hurricane Ian ITN Nomination. I would appreciate if you do a mutual strike on the first sentence of your comment "you guys just don’t want to post it because Fiona wasn’t posted. That’s your opinion No, that's certainly not my opinion, and I ask you to strike that". That way, we can remove those comments, from the discussion, per se. Elijahandskip (talk) 05:55, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I appreciate you honoring the strike request and I've done the same. Some context to why I wanted you to strike it: I have personal reasons to be more than a little biased towards posting Ian as quite a lot of people in my life who I care deeply about have been (and continue to be) affected by it, so it got under my skin when you implied I didn't care about Ian because I was butthurt about Fiona not being posted. Glad we cleared this up. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 06:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

DPR and LPR "List of states with limited recognition"
Thank you for removing the DPR and LPR from that article. Several weeks ago, I was arguing furiously that the two statelets need to be removed, but there was a heavy pushback from "conservative" editors. However, now that the DPR and LPR have been willfully annexed by Russia, not even they themselves are claiming to be real countries anymore. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 13:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

By the way, as a result of that RfC about calling the DPR/LPR "puppet states", I have been forced into an arbitration discussion by the opposition. I'm not sure exactly what the verdict is, but I've said that I would stay away from Russia-related articles for a while. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 13:41, 1 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I appreciate you reaching out to me. I was not aware at the time that several other editors attempted to make the same edit as me, all reverted by the same one editor, but this seems to indicate that there is now a rough consensus among editors at the Limited recognition page that Donetsk and Luhansk should not be included any longer. Inclusion of Donetsk and Luhansk in the list of states with limited recognition has always been debated, as prior to Russia recognizing them there was a longstanding consensus against including them in the list of states not recognized by any UN member because Donetsk and Luhansk were regarded more as proto-states (comparable to Republic of Logone, Ambazonia, or ISIS) than proper unrecognized states like Somaliland. When Russia, along with a couple of its allies, formally recognized the two, it seemed almost obligatory to include them, but not everyone agreed this was the right choice. Now that no one, not even the DPR and LPR themselves, claim these states are independent, it's incredibly hard to justify their inclusion. Some editors object on the basis that the State Duma needs to ratify their annexation, but this is going to happen so soon that it's not worth it to waste any energy edit warring over it.


 * I've taken a cursory glance at the AE thread you're referring to and there seems to be quite a lot to read though before I can comment on it, but my first impression was that it's a rather problematic report from an editor whose own behavior was rather questionable at times (WP:BOOMERANG), but I also have to agree that you should consider changing some aspects of your behavior. In particular, I don't think it's the best idea to use your user talk page as a space to host your commentary on ongoing geopolitical events. I think it's fine to make your biases known, I list on my own user page that I'm no fan of Putin, but there's a line where it gets excessive and I think frequently writing essays about your stances crosses that line. It also seems that you've been referring to certain editors by nicknames like "Jones", "Bob" and my personal favorite, "Frank." If you want my opinion, I assume it's just meant to be lighthearted and funny, but other editors seemed to interpret this as vaguely threatening, so I'd also recommend you avoid this in the future, as amusing as I might find it. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 22:43, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are exactly right. From April 2014 up until February 2022, there was a consensus to regard the DPR and LPR as "proto-states" (or "quasi-states"). From February 2022 to September 2022, the DPR and LPR have been regarded as "states with limited recognition", but only very loosely. The DPR and LPR never fulfilled the Montevideo criteria (declarative theory) to qualify as de facto states. They only ever fulfilled the constitutive theory, having been recognised by Russia, Syria, and North Korea. By the way, technically, Crimea was also recognised as an independent country by Russia for around one week during March 2014. Meanwhile, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia were recognised as independent countries by Russia for a single day very recently. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 07:59, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The initial reason that I came to Wikipedia was to read about Taiwan, after a classmate of mine IRL suggested that I might have Taiwanese ancestry (my background is primarily Chinese Australian). I read the Wikipedia article about Taiwan (c. May 2017), and based on some details, I concluded that I actually am Taiwanese. Due to this initial catalyst, most of my commentary on Wikipedia was initially about Taiwan. This led to me being dragged directly into the conflicts between pro-Taiwan and pro-China editors over the political status of Taiwan, even though I originally wasn't a genuine "political activist". I encountered CMD during the time that I was editing articles relating to Taiwan, and he was hostile towards me back then, although I had no idea that he was actually part of the pro-Russia camp of Wikipedia editors and had simply spilled over into the pro-China space. Things became pretty heated a few months ago when I encountered him in the pro-Russia space. Note: I myself am basically a part of the pro-Taiwan space, and I myself have spilled over into the pro-Ukraine space. I have no fundamental ties to Ukraine. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 08:12, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The difference between the pro-Taiwan and pro-China camps is that one camp supports Taiwan's right to exist, and the other camp wants to completely destroy Taiwan. I care a lot about my own identity. I spent the first 15 years of my life not knowing that I'm 1/4-Taiwanese, so when I discovered my ancestry, it was a "big revelation". My great grandparents were brought to Australia from Indonesia (ethnic-Taiwanese) in 1941-1942 as prisoners of the Dutch government, which was fleeing Indonesia ahead of the Japanese invasion. In the present day, I am an Australian citizen, so this event marks the beginning of my national identity in this country. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 08:23, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I will add that I have a wide range of interests aside from just politics. I mainly edit politics exclusively on Wikipedia (which I've been a member of since late-2018), but that might change in the future. Recently, the same has occurred on my other social media accounts. I used to use separate accounts to talk about politics versus other things, and now I've just combined everything together. (Of course, you can only have one Wikipedia account.) Jargo Nautilus (talk) 11:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Your !vote removed at AfD by another user
Hi Vanilla Wizard. I just wanted to let you know that removed your !vote at Articles for deletion/Flag of Kherson Oblast (Russia) and replaced it with their own keep one 16 minutes after you made yours (with an edit summary saying "the Kremlin is a reliable source"). I reverted and warned them. Tartan357 (talk) 02:50, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Just noticed they did the same thing over at Articles for deletion/Kherson Oblast (Russia). Tartan357 (talk) 02:52, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * That's very strange, I don't know why they're repeatedly trying to remove my !vote but I thank you for reverting it and reaching out to me. If they continue I might have to bring it up at AN/I. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 04:43, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Wikipedia policies and guidelines request for comment
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Flag of Antarctica
Hello, I saw page about Flag of Antarctica and I noticed to there is recently added some "official flag", "true south flag" some like that. And I saw talk page discussion and saw that you are active in discussions there so I assume you know much more so can you check that recently added tings about "official flag"? So Flag of Antarctica and List of Antarctic flags pages I suspect, and I would like to I am wrong but it seems to there is some promotion or something like that going on and as I checked WP:NOT that is forbidden. I will research more and will try to find a time to join in discussions but I am sure to there is no any widely officially accepted and recognized flag of Antartica. MrGogisa (talk) 09:27, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for reaching out to me! I agree that the recently added changes to the article are inappropriate and I've since reverted them. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 23:31, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

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Flag of Antarctica reversions
Because you reverted them again, I will explain my edits for the "Flag of Antarctic territory claims" and "Flag of international organization" sections.

1. Using the table disambiguates the older (and now current) version of the article because every single flag listed has its own entry already. The sources you claimed I removed are still cited in each one of the flags' own articles. The table also clarifies that all claims have their own flag, unlike the older/current version which only lists a few flags.

2. The section on flags of international Antarctic organizations includes new, valuable, and sourced information. Your accusation about the Facebook being unreliable does not apply here per WP:Facebook's description "The official page of a subject may be used as a self-published, primary source, but only if it can be authenticated as belonging to the subject." The cited source was about the SCAR flag from SCAR's official Facebook page.

To avoid edit warring, I will wait until you've responded before restoring these sections. I must admit I've found your behavior to be inappropriately combative toward me and all my input. I am trying to maintain good faith toward you and I would appreciate if you would do the same for me. <b style="background-color:#581;color:#FFF"> Not A <b style="background-color:#FFF;color:#581"> Witty Fish </b></b> 02:15, 10 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I feel that this response ignores the reasons in the edit summary explaining why they were reverted in the first place.
 * 1. Prose is preferred in articles because it allows the presentation of detail and clarification of context in a way that a simple list may not. It is best suited to articles because their purpose is to explain. There's no benefit to eliminating all the information about these flags from the article, even if they are better explained elsewhere. It's also not true that all claims have their own flag; the article explains unique designs created for the purpose of representing lands in Antarctica. The article already mentions that Australia, New Zealand, and Norway all use their national flag to represent their claim which is true. We don't need to display the Flag of Norway four times in the article all right next to each other, one for each of Norway's two claims immediately followed by 🇳🇴 Norway just in case the reader wasn't already aware that the flag of Norway labeled Flag of Norway was the flag of Norway. Avoid unnecessary redundancy.
 * 2. Verifiability isn't the only problem I mentioned with the Facebook source. There are no secondaries. You yourself have removed flags from flag articles for lacking secondary sources to demonstrate notability, have you not? The same is true of the SCAR flag, and the same is true of the many Antarctic flag designs that aren't in the article.
 * Respectfully, I don't think you've been assuming good faith towards me at all. You've quite explicitly told me that I keep changing my positions despite the fact that I've been saying the same things phrased the same way not just in this current conversation with you, but in other conversations from months ago.
 * The heart of the issue is that you tried to completely overhaul the entire article and all of its sections in one sweeping edit despite a recent high-participation near-unanimous consensus that's strongly opposed to the edits you're trying to make, and previous similar edits in the revision history have been reverted by other editors on the basis that they were POV-pushing by inappropriately trying to structure the entire article around the idea that the True South flag is the one true flag of Antarctica, a position that the vast majority of editors at the talk page and in the revision history have expressed opposition to. This isn't a me versus you thing, you just need to get a consensus. And if the consensus is against your edit, then that's the end of that.
 * <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 00:03, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * 1. Only one claim (the British Antarctic Territory) has its own flag. I don't think it makes sense to only list that one and none of the others. If the preference is for prose, I suggest this as a compromise: "Australia, New Zealand, and Norway all use their national flag to represent their claims. Argentina, Chile, and France use flags of the provinces or territories of which the claim is a part. Only the British Antarctic Territory has its own flag." (with a gallery of flags accompanying the text.)
 * 2. I think it is still worth mentioning, but I agree there we should not mention every Antarctic flag ever in the article. If multiple, established sources is what's required for being included, then we should also remove the Whitney Smith flag along with the SCAR flag.
 * I hope you can at least agree to the two points above. It seems like you will not ever agree with the other edits, so perhaps WP:3O is needed. But let's leave that to the talk page discussion so we're not having the conversation in two different places. <b style="background-color:#581;color:#FFF"> Not A <b style="background-color:#FFF;color:#581"> Witty Fish </b></b> 00:50, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't mind responding to you in both places, but I can't help but notice that on the talk page you told me you preferred to talk on my user page and now on my user page you're telling me you're preferring to talk on the talk page. I'll just respond in both places because you sent me two different messages in two different places, and it'd create too much clutter to fit my reply to what you said here over there.
 * The status quo (listing not only the British Antarctic Territory but other subnational flags with unique designs representing lands within Antarctica) to the exclusion of national flags is, in my opinion, already a great compromise between displaying too few and too many. We can revise the sentence to clarify that the flags of all the territorial claims except the British Antarctic Territory are also used as provincial flags outside of the Antarctic continent, this is accurate. A gallery template isn't as needed here because there's just enough prose and just enough images that the formatting works and the images are all in the right place.
 * The Whitney Smith flag cites a secondary source, while the SCAR flag has only a primary source. Secondary sources are used to establish notability. Unless there are any secondary sources for the SCAR flag, it makes sense to only include it at List of Antarctic flags. It's possible that other editors may agree to remove the Smith flag from Flag of Antarctica as this has been done in the past (I don't exactly have many strong feelings on it), but I wouldn't want to remove unrelated information purely as a token compromise due to the SCAR flag not being there either. It should only be done if editors agree it should be done.
 * 3O wouldn't make much sense as the next step here, there were multiple other editors commenting at the article talk page in the relevant talk section. You already got a 3rd opinion, and a 4th. Out of the four of us who commented, no editors agreed with your preferred revision. That's not to say it's not possible that editors will agree with you if you get more participation. If you want editors to comment specifically on the changes unrelated to the True South flag (i.e. the article format and the inclusion of the SCAR flag), I recommend starting a fresh talk section about that to make it easier for uninvolved editors to comment on it. If you want a consensus on a specific proposed edit, using the RfC process generally the best way to do it. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 02:17, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * As a follow-up: I said I would respond to you in both places, but before I could finish typing what I was going to say on the article talk page, NebY said everything I wanted to say and said it better than I could have. Consider their response to be my response as well. Cheers, <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 22:34, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I requested we keep the two conversations separate because one is about NPOV (on the talk page) and the thread here is about all of the unrelated edits in the version you reverted. The only similarity across all of these changes is that I'm the one who made them, so your suggestion to group them together reinforces my feeling that you're focusing on the editor not the content.
 * In addition to what we've already discussed, I added additional information, sources, and corrections you reverted. These include:
 * Historic context about expedition flags in Antarctica
 * correcting the claim that the white flag is a flag proposal
 * Mention of the many other proposals made for Antarctica since 1970.
 * Information about the color of orange on Whitney Smith's flag
 * Graham Bartram's title and role
 * Correcting the claim that the Bartram flag is used on all emoji keyboards.
 * Do you have any opposition to restoring all of this? <b style="background-color:#581;color:#FFF"> Not A <b style="background-color:#FFF;color:#581"> Witty Fish </b></b> 23:46, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * No clue what you mean by "your suggestion to group them together." Group what together? The proposed edits? I never suggested that; between the two of us you're the one who keeps suggesting we keep all discussion at either the user page or the talk page but not both. I suggested quite the opposite: that we should create fresh new talk sections for separate proposals, and if necessary, have an RfC on a very specific proposal. And I still suggest that. Even if it's just the two of us talking, we should be having this conversation somewhere on the talk page (not in the same section of course, that'd create too much clutter as I've mentioned before) so that any other editor who has something to say can say it. Really, we shouldn't be discussing what the state of an article should be on my user talk page. I'm not the only editor who matters.
 * As for the suggestions, I'm sure most of these changes are perfectly fine and not controversial. I'll have to review this a little more closely when I have the opportunity and get back to you as soon as I can. I'd do it right now if I could, but I won't be available for long enough. For now, I'll say that there's definitely nothing wrong with mentioning what the orange on Smith's flag symbolizes, go right ahead. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 18:57, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

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