User talk:Vanished user adhmfdfmykrdyr/Archive 3

Re: A barnstar for your help
Hi Laura, Thanks very much for the barnstar. I'm not much into sports myself, but I think that it's important that we reduce the systemic bias of Wikipedia. Graham 87 09:08, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Peer review
Hello, LauraHale You offered to have a peer review done for El Salvador national football team.

Note: Peer review/El Salvador national football team/archive1

Thanks, Jaime070996 21:45, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Women's baseball in Australia
Wow. Do you play baseball in Canberra? This is great  JRA _ Westy Qld2  Talk 08:03, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Women's tennis in Australia
Materialscientist (talk) 00:34, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Question for you at RFAR
I have posed a question for you at the Racepacket RFAR, at Question for LauraHale. As we are proceeding fairly quickly now, I'd appreciate it if you could respond within 48 hours if at all possible. Risker (talk) 16:31, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Racepacket closed
An arbitration case regarding Racepacket has closed and the final decision is now viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
 * 1) is banned from Wikipedia for one year
 * 2) is admonished for blocking editors with whom he has had recent editorial disputes
 * 3) and Racepacket are prohibited from interacting with one another
 * 4) Hawkeye7 is prohibited from taking administrative action "with regards to, or at the behest of LauraHale".

For the Arbitration Committee, AGK  [&bull; ] 21:43, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Re: Paralympic start articles
Hi Laura, OK, I'll go through those articles. Graham 87 11:48, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Women's motorsport in Australia
Added this to the women's country sport template, surely a notable ommission from the list of women's sport articles. About starting/expanding such an article would be harder mind you. Perhaps you might have some insight? --Falcadore (talk) 04:23, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

African American women in politics
If you would like to create an article with me, I am up for this. We can research together. My sandbox currently has an African American women's history timeline, so if yours is open, we would have to use yours. Hope you're in! --Henriettapussycat (talk) 16:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

African American is an ethnicity that does not exist outside the US, so need to address that. This page has a few demos of women in politics. --Henriettapussycat (talk) 17:30, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I will talk more with you on the discussion page.--Henriettapussycat (talk) 17:49, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Australia at the 1996 Summer Paralympics
The DYK project (nominate) 00:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Priya Cooper
The DYK project (nominate) 00:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

AAW in politics
I feel like I have added as much info as I'm going to so lemme know what you think! --Henriettapussycat (talk) 21:54, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me. I can move it over. :) --LauraHale (talk) 01:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Re: Priya Cooper
Hi Laura, I've copyedited the article and moved things around to make them flow better. The early life and personal life sections need more info on her family ... where did they come from, how many siblings she has, etc. Also it'd be nice to note if she has a partner, and if so, for how long ... basic biographical facts like that. Graham 87 02:41, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Netball
Hi LauraHale. I think the Netball article is pretty up for snuff. Would you be comfortable with me nominating it for a Good Article reassessment? Thanks for considering it, and thanks for all your hard work on bringing content about women's sports to Wikipedia. SarahStierch (talk) 21:25, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

You might be interested in this discussion
The idea of male privilege is considered just a POV to some of these people, heh. So... yeah.


 * Categories for discussion/Log/2011 August 17
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2011 August 17

--Henriettapussycat (talk) 05:11, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

A bit of helpful information
I want to let you know something as a Wikifriend. I liked that you felt that the women in arts category was important, but I believe that when one refers to a group that they may not belong to it's best to take into consideration how the person might feel about the comment. I don't know about Australia, but in the United States, the term "minority" is going out of vogue. It has a lot of connotations with it that many people, including myself, don't like. It's best to refer to people who are not of European heritage of people of color. But in a broader sense, it's best to not point out this difference unless the person has brought up the subject themselves. Just like I would find it weird if someone brought up the subject that I'm a Southern American (I'm Texan) or a woman. I hope you aren't offended by me sharing this information with you. There is also a term that we use in disability advocacy and work called "people-first language." In a simple sense it's a way of referring to a person first, and then their personal identifier (although some people don't like people first language, for example, Autistics), but in a philosophical sense, one can see it as a way to always let the person label themselves first. I really hope that this helps you. --Henriettapussycat (talk) 20:23, 18 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Did not know that. Will try to be more careful and thoughtful regarding my wording choices in the future. --LauraHale (talk) 22:28, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Re: Frank Ponta
Hi Laura, I've had a go at copyediting and reworking the article. It seems to be in fairly good shape now. Graham 87 13:35, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks! :-) Graham 87 02:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Your work here is invaluable, but please be really careful about sticking to sources, especially when they relate to controversies where many of the players are probably still alive. Royal Perth Hospital did not refuse him entry because he wasn't a paraplegic. That would have been nonsensical, because he clearly had paraplegia by any reasonable definition of the term. He wanted to be admitted to the quadriplegic centre, and he was refused entry there primarily because he didn't have quadriplegia, as he still had use of his right arm. It's easy to mix up the terms, but the distinction is vitally important in this case. Graham 87 11:21, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Re: False positive

 * Seems it didn't detect the "journal=" parameter properly although it generally keeps title= and work= parameters intact. Sometimes dates in such fields should actually be factored out to date= parameters. However, script is being adjusted for journal= to avoid similar false-pos in the future. Thx. Dl2000 (talk) 01:39, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Canberra Roller Derby League
Nice addition. :) That gives us three of the leagues. I've been given some issues of Hit & Miss to use on these articles, and I think the CRDL was featured in one, so I'll see if there is anything else I can dig up from there. - Bilby (talk) 06:48, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Indonesian Wikipedia ID WP female sport writer
Got you a victim to try to collaborate on Female sport writer. Serenity id (talk) 15:20, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

David Hall
Thanks for going ahead and finishing off the article. You really improved it. at your suggestion I went ahead and nominated it but realised due to work commitments I didn't have time to polish it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KansaiDan (talk • contribs) 05:06, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Canberra Roller Derby League
Materialscientist (talk) 16:03, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * derby derby!! :) SarahStierch (talk) 18:06, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Great to see good quality roller derby articles on the front page - very good work. I hope you are planning to write some more!  I'll have a look at the European leagues. Warofdreams talk 22:50, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I sent off a snail mail request for bout day guides and programmes for a few leagues in Europe. Hopefully,  I might get a few responses and I can help improve those.  I'd love to add more to the Canberra article but not sure what else I could add and only so many sources. :( --LauraHale (talk) 01:30, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * While it's always good to expand articles with reliable content, I actually meant that I was hoping you would write some more articles on other roller derby leagues - it's great that you've already sent off for some guides and programmes. I'm hoping to get hold of Roller Derby to RollerJam, which should be a useful source on the history of the sport. Warofdreams talk 12:27, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Roller Derby
NICE!...--Nemonoman (talk) 10:06, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Laura. A peek at your contributions shows the huge effort and excellent work you have done on this article. Please accept my compliments: I certainly know how thankless that task can be; take some gratification that another editor appreciates what you have done.

I think the foundations are there for a GA or even an FA, and I'd like to bring it up to that standard, even if there's no formal GAR.

When it comes to toe stomping, it's generally me doing the stomping, so your provisional apology is a gentle surprise. My toes are pretty tough these days. I worry a little about yours as if I continue to make modifications. Please let me hear from you if -- I should say when -- I go too far.

I haven't had a chance to thoroughly peruse your recent changes, but they look pretty good at first glance. I also wanted to subhead the rules section, but it was such a convoluted mess when I started to have a go that I thought I'd wait. Then I wake up and you've already taken a good first pass. Thanks.

I'm big on rewriting for clarity, and for removing ambiguity and seeming contradictions. Also I'm very geeky, so some of my questions about these matters may seem off-putting. I appreciate very much your kind and thorough responses.

One thing I will be thinking about -- and I hope you will be too -- is this is an article about WFTDA roller derby, or about Roller Derby in general, which certainly is currently both inspired and (to my mind, pleasantly) dominated by the WFTDA. I think the article wants to move from the General to the Particular, even though the Particular in this case is 99% of the general. Sort of along the lines of how I framed my version of the intro to the Rules section. I'm probably going to have a go at a similar General=>Particular approach to other topics as well.

I'm very pleased that you have taken me in as a collaborator. Usually I just upset the apple cart. --Nemonoman (talk) 12:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi to both of you - pleased to see collaboration on this article. A while ago, I proposed to some other editors that often show up in edit summaries on derby articles that a "task force" be created in order to improve derby articles, specifically those for leagues, but nothing came of it. Maybe after we work on this general article, folks may want to take a stab at that. (Not that I've done that much to Roller Derby yet.) I came here to say hi and thank you for the work thus far (And Laura specifically for Bibliography of roller derby), but reading the above post by Nem I wanted to make a further comment. Yes, this article should be more about the general I think, however, contemporary roller derby is so intertwined with WFTDA that it is hard to separate the things, and it does make the article WFTDA-heavy. Perhaps as the contemporary section gets fleshed out further, it grows to the point that an argument can be made to spin it off into a separate article. Also, I haven't looked at the WFTDA article in general in a while, some of this could maybe get built up in there as well. Anyway, keep up the good work. Echoedmyron (talk) 14:24, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with Echoedmyron to a certain degree. The article may be WFTDA heavy, but that should resolve itself over time as the article continues to improve. The current reason the article appears that way is there are just not sources for other leagues in the existing article.  I've been drawing mostly upon that and my sources from Canberra Roller Derby League bout guides that I have.  (They aren't WFTDA affiliated.)  Until we can find sources, then there isn't much that can be done.  (A sourcing issue I'm running into is pretty present on Amazon: I can find a lot of recent movies but very few recent books.  The book sources at my university library all date from the late 1970s and early 1980s.  My personal collection is two books, both about roller skating that mention roller derby in a few pages.)


 * The contemporary section will probably need a bit of dismantling. I think the order of the article may need some changing: History FIRST.  Contemporary roller derby, and an explanation regarding the WFTDA section second.  Remove the heading.  Treat the men's leagues, mixed leagues, banked tracks as variations of the sport and put in explanations for them.  If not that, cover that issue in a section about say demographics of the sport and cover those leagues more in the governance.  The problem I run into is the article tends to look very American top heavy in the governance section, with out any explanation as to why certain leagues are featured.  (Perhaps, maybe spin off an article called "Roller derby in the United States," where some of the issues of which leagues and American governance for the sport can be addressed and the more notable leagues can be better identified?  Still thinking a bit on that. --LauraHale (talk) 20:07, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree about the American slant, and also the scarcity of sources. Obviously derby has expanded world-wide, and even WFTDA has started admitting international members. (I figure there will be an opportunity to reference the World Cup as it happens.) Not sure about an "in the US" section, as that implies that it is very different from, say, Canada. I do think we can try to spread references out more to cover sources from other locations; there's great writing out there about derby here in Canada, for example, but how reliable the sources may be (if we're thinking about shooting for GA status) is another thing. (I'm impressed with the amount of info you've tracked down for the Australian leagues; clearly, we don't hear much about them over here. I think you're certainly on the right track here, and would be happy to tackle some of this next week when I have my day's off from work. Echoedmyron (talk) 20:26, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Not so much a section as a separate article about roller derby in the United States. (I've been playing around with creating an article called Roller derby in Australia as an example.  The history is a bit different than the American history.  The current organisation of the sport is different, and I'm not entirely certain how things are organised nationally in terms of squad selection.  I know there is a national championship here and they have a national team.  I suspect that Skate Australia will begin to get more involved and there is beginning to be a real push towards creating university teams.  I'd hazard a guess that in a year or two, we'll see roller derby at the University Games in Australia.)  By creating a separate article about roller derby in the USA, it can help understand the sport as an American movement and what leagues are more important.  There are things that are necessary for the roller derby article that wouldn't be necessary for Roller derby in the United States, things like the rules and what is happening in other countries.  As professionalism seems to be an American concept alone, that could be worked out there.


 * I think roller derby reliable sourcing is going to be a bit of an issue no matter what. There may be a bit of a struggle and those sourcing issues may never be resolved.  Fun situations happen at the GAN level, because top level sport articles are almost impossible to do given the huge scope of the topic.  Looking through past GAN nominations for sports, I've seen instances where articles got dinged for using sources only out of their sport community and seen other instances where sport articles got dinged for using only general, non-specific to that sport references.  The whole thing is a bit of a crap shoot of what reviewer you get. :/  But Canberra Roller Derby League, Adelaide Roller Derby and Victorian Roller Derby League all passed the sourcing challenge for WP:DYK so there is a good chance…


 * The major struggle will be to get the article to mostly cover the topic, with out going too much off point. Rules and governance are probably the more important. History is probably a nice to have.  Contemporary roller derby as a feminist and punk movement may be a bit of a struggle to try to address, but probably needs to be there to address the spectacle that is roller derby with its names, etc.  Just not sure how to do. :( --LauraHale (talk) 21:22, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your hard work! Wikipedia is citation-driven, and as a Texas saying has it, you dance with thems that brungs ya.  I've seen the tone of press coverage change already, given that contemporary roller derby has gone from a novelty to something that's not going away.  (Not only does Boise have both a junior league and a men's league now, one of the Treasure Valley Rollergirls has recently moved to Singapore for work-related reasons, and there's a roller derby league extant there as well, the Chilli Padi Derby Grrrls!)  Derby names have already received some scholarly attention; the analyses of its punk and third-wave feminist elements are sure to follow, and it's probably only a matter of time before it becomes a Olympic demonstration sport. I.e. the sport is evolving, hence the citations shall certainly follow suit, but in the meantime we use what's on the table. kencf0618 (talk) 01:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the article needs to be extremely focused on the content it covers. After reading more on the topic, I'd probably disambiguate roller derby's early professional history into a completely separate article and treat it as a completely separate sport. It just would make the article much more compact and relevant to what a lot of people are probably looking for by focusing on contemporary.  It would also help better focus the article… and that's always going to be a challenge.  How do you put in relevant information and have it remained focused?  I'm pretty much a sports person.  I'd argue the punk aspects probably shouldn't be in the article period.  I'd have them as daughter articles because the punk aspect isn't necessarily important to roller derby as a sport.  (And that's how the coverage in my area is: Roller derby is a participation sport for women and it is one of the fastest growing women's team participation sports in the country.  It has a lot of health benefits and offers women new opportunities in sport.)  The article needs to decide what it wants to be: Sport article or popular culture article.  The local league here has been interviewed by the local radio station and regularly gets mentioned in our local newspaper.  There are adverts on campus of the two major universities, and the women and alternative bookstores in the city.


 * As for roller derby becoming an Olympic sport, I have a book from 1980 that talks about how roller sports are likely to become Olympic sports and on the program by 1988. It never happened.  The Olympics no longer does demonstration sports. The only women only sport ever on the Olympic programme was removed from the programme: Softball.  The only other women only sport to gain Olympic recognition… well … Netball and the Olympic Movement… Roller derby is unlikely to ever be on the Olympic programme.  For that to happen, either the Women's Flat Track Derby Association would have to completely dominate the sport like the International Federation of Netball Associations does, or you'd have to have Federation International de Roller Sports basically take control of the sport and push for it.  Neither situation appears to be on the horizon in the next five years, as much as I'd like it to be. --LauraHale (talk) 08:23, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The athleticism and the punk & camp & third-wave feminism are not mutually exclusive. While I agree that the history of the sport should be shunted aside, contemporary roller derby, particularly in the U.S., very much partakes of pop and deeper cultures.  I've seen Latina athletes sporting Día de los Muertos facepaint, and the French article notes that the sport has elements from  rockabilly/punk/pin-up et le monde des films d'horreur.  It is a contact sport by and for women (for the most part), who have themselves chosen such elements, and the article must reflect this.  Obviously roller derby developed from a different background in Australia.  It would indeed be interesting to compare and contrast the different national versions of the sport, but for that we have to wait for the appropriate citations to roll in.  (It's too bad that the Olympic demonstration sports are no more, BTW.  Roller derby would have been perfect for it!)  kencf0618 (talk) 03:06, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * LauraHale, it's interesting that you imply FIRS has something to do with roller derby. Where did you get that impression? I seem to recall something about that being in the roller derby article, but it was removed for lack of sources. Can I infer from this that you blindly remove and demand sources for uncontentious material that even you, yourself, accept as fact? Just trying to get a handle on your m.o. here. I mean, I don't see any sources to verify that FIRS has anything to do with roller derby, and you apparently don't believe anything uncontentious should remain in the article without sources, so why do you accept that particular nugget of info? And why don't you capitalize Roller Derby, like newspaper graveyards & style guides require? Apparently I've been doing it wrong, too; I've been under the false impression there was something in the article about Roller Derby being a canceled trademark, but that seems to have gone missing.


 * Sorry for the sarcasm, but your lack of engagement on the article's discussion page and your apparent unwillingness to help find sources for benign content which you don't genuinely disagree with just leaves me with the impression you're obsessively pursuing a slightly paranoid, excessively bureaucratic view of what's necessary for the article to reach Good Article or Featured Article status, without regard for the effect that such changes have on the article's stability. I'm quite familiar with Wikipedia policies and have smacked people down with them on the derby articles myself, but I feel strongly that uncited yet uncontested content is not the liability that you seem to think it is. By ensuring that the article uses uncontentious statements to address topic X, we stave off poorly written and contentious statements from hit-and-run editors who try to add too much detail. But why is there even this obsession with GA status? It's an accolade about as meaningful as a "barnstar" on your talk page. —mjb (talk) 19:51, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd still argue that you're overly focusing on the punk aspect in terms of importance to the international community. There are a large variety of roller derby sources that fail to mention the connection to punk:  Punk isn't mentioned on most articles about roller derby and those sources would most likely merit as credible given the topic. I'd skip punk as a component of the main article, and if it was important, put it in an article like Roller derby in the United States, as a subsection of Punk subculture or a new article called Punk and roller derby.  Or possibly integrate it into a section on uniforms, where it is alluded to. --LauraHale (talk) 07:01, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * My Googling "roller derby punk" has just provided three more citations for the article. Punk has a large DIY ethic which has fed into roller derby in the U.S. and the U.K., so it certainly bears mention in that regard.  Furthermore I see that someone has added the Punk portal to the article, amongst others.  YMMV.  kencf0618 (talk) 01:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, check out this citation re roller derby pseudonyms and their "distinctive combination of punk and camp." http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1755305 kencf0618 (talk) 01:40, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm OK with the topic being addressed, but my only concern about this is that the increasing reality is that derby consists of shades of grey, not polar extremes. It's irresponsible and somewhat inaccurate to encourage the sport to be constantly portrayed as being hyper-focused on aesthetics and as existing on a linear spectrum where punk/camp/derby-names/spectacle is on one end and family-friendly/uniforms/real-names/athletics are on the other, with leagues falling mostly on one side or the other. In 2005-2008 it was a hot topic, but the top-tier leagues have already moved on; they're all focused on the game and on growth. Their level of campiness or whatever is totally a peripheral issue, not as important as it may still be for some. This decreasing importance of aesthetics should, IMHO, encourage you to rein in the temptation to devote too much space to the topic. —mjb (talk) 19:52, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * This is a false dichotomy. It's not an either/or situation in the U.S.; the camp and the athleticism are not mutually exclusive.  If (say) WFTDA apprentice leagues have more anarchistic regalia than WFTDA leagues, I certainly haven't come across any citations to that effect.  That said, I've already noted in the article that some leagues have opted for more uniform livery. kencf0618 (talk) 22:40, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

As a random aside as I'm not particularly following things at the moment: My primary interest in editing Wikipedia is sport, with a focus on Paralympic sport, women's sport and sport in Oceania. I'm generally not particularly interested in feminist movements, punk, music, etc. Most of my editing experience has been around sport. It is what I know in terms of citing and information organisation. It is also related to what I'm doing professionally. Thus, I'm not intentionally trying to ignore what you're saying… just so much as the topic as it pertains to roller derby goes beyond my interest in the sport as a spectator. :/ I love the sport as a spectator one and because of the sport's recent history as being a female administered one (like netball and unlike softball.)  Sports administration ties in to my interest in sport marketing. I'm pretty happy to leave the roller derby article alone now. If you want to spin off an article called Roller derby (sport), I'd be happy to do that (with a focus on the rules, history of the rules, players, administration of roller derby as a sport) but the article just appears to be going in a direction that just doesn't interest me otherwise. :( If you want any additional help if you decide to try for a good article, I can do citation clean up and fact tagging. --LauraHale (talk) 03:21, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I definitely appreciate your particular skill set and the focus which you've brought to the article, but American roller derby is wild and wooly. It is a sport with burlesque elements (I often describe it as highly stylized, very athletic camp) about which sensibilities can and do differ, but your technical expertise can certainly be brought to bear.  Thanks again for all of your hard work to date!  kencf0618 (talk) 04:33, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Re: UAE at the Paralympics
Easy peasy, actually. The list of athletes is in the IPC record, so the record is a full and valid source in itself. It doesn't need any additional citations. (I've left a comment at the DYK entry.) (On the other hand, that article about Rogge doesn't help, since it refers to the Olympics, not the Paralympics.) Nice work on fleshing out the article! Aridd (talk) 11:37, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Re: Paralympians
I honestly thought the external link would be enough, I will try to change this into an inline citation, thanks may take a while as I've just been to a Wiki meetup in Amsterdam and have a couple of hundred photos to upload. Waacstats (talk) 19:38, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Frank Ponta
Materialscientist (talk) 08:02, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Liesl Tesch
Materialscientist (talk) 16:02, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

DYK for United Arab Emirates at the Paralympics
Materialscientist (talk) 00:03, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Re: Elizabeth Edmondson
Done. The first time I tried to copyedit the article, I lost my work by accidentally closing the browser window, so this is my second attempt. :-) Graham 87 14:45, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Re: Liesel Tesch
I notice that you've figured it out yourself. Graham 87 00:43, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Liesl Tesch
Great work getting the extra information on Liesl's personal life (with sources no less).KlappCK (talk) 13:25, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Service award
In recognition of your 5000 edits and your one-year involvement on Wikipedia, I hereby award you, LauraHale, the Yeoman Editor service. Please wear this medal with great distinction (Display it on your user page). Sp33dyphil "Ad astra" 10:52, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 26 September 2011
Read this Signpost in full &middot; Single-page &middot; Unsubscribe &middot; EdwardsBot (talk) 01:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Rugby union
LauraHale, when you have a spare moment could you glance your wonderful eye back over this article as I feel any extra addition I now make are just window dressing. Yours FruitMonkey (talk) 23:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Elizabeth Edmondson
Materialscientist (talk) 00:04, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Swami Bhoomananda Tirtha
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Sport in Australia
Oops! Was just re-adding that table as you did (so it edit-conflicted)!--Jeff79 (talk) 09:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

MADE
I'm getting close to 3RR...might have already crossed the line. I keep forgetting to count. If our new friend returns, consider submitting a 3RR incident report. Those guys don't like me very much, and I usually end up getting myself blocked as well. --Nemonoman (talk) 15:12, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Your new friend is here, and you have all crossed the line, WFTDA is not the end all be all to roller derby. There are thousands of skaters who do not skate by their rules, or are governed by them. Your failure to recognize these other associations has been cited, and the page now reads like an advertisement for the WFTDA. A petition is going around the internet, and this has come to the attention of many groups who frequent this page. --miamoe2010 23:104, 5 October 2011 (UTC)


 * You're not going to get consensus for what you're talking about. The most appropriate place for an American only organisation is Roller derby in the United States.  As for letting people know, WP:CANVAS is a policy you should become familiar with because if you posted to several sites asking people to edit the article to push a certain point of view, you may get into trouble.  Beyond that, provide the sources for MADE on the MADE article and Roller derby in the United States, show that the organisation is relevant to the women's sport of roller derby, demonstrate international significance as to why they matter outside the United States and back that up with sources.  If you can do that, then no one will complain about the inclusion of the organisation in the article.  That hasn't been done yet. --03:22, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Governance and organiZation
NICE SECTION and a nice resolution of the MADE problem (and likely others like it).

Please don't hate me for Z vs S. I work on many articles associated with primarily Indian and primarily English subjects as well as American topics, and the S vs Z spelling question comes up quite often. MOS says, irrationally, that the nationality of the SUBJECT of the article determines the spelling -- UNLESS the principal editing already consistently uses English or American spellings, in which case just follow the leader. So articles like "D-Day" etc. (mixed nationality subject, mixed editing), get a huge back and forth on this issue. In Roller Derby subject is american and current spellings seem to be American throughout, so I got all Miss Grundy on your ass and switched S to Z. Now I'm feeling regretful. If you change back, I won't fuss. --Nemonoman (talk) 22:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I use American, English and British English pretty interchangeably. I'm not even always aware as to what version I'm using, unless I'm consciously thinking about it because I'm working on Australian sport articles.  :) (I've got three different computers I use, with different language preferences that sometimes change browser to browser.) Nothing to be fussed about on that account, and given the history of the sport as it pertains to America, tagging it as American spelling wouldn't be completely inappropriate. Happy the change didn't annoy, because I was worried it would as we'd done the governance issue before and I think it got whacked. --22:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your gentle response! As for whacking the governance section, I thought YOU were the one that whacked it!??!! Anyway the new one is good. I'm sorry the olympics section got cut, though with reasonable motivation. Did you figure that stuff out on your own? (It was very clarifying info). Maybe you got a hint or inspiration that could be cited??--Nemonoman (talk) 12:19, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd removed and changed sections probably a month ago, and I think have repeatedly tried to take the section out. I'm getting my PhD in sports, and I do a lot of research related to sport and hope to do something related to women's sport as part of my postdoc work. In any case, I've spent a lot of time researching the qualifications for women's sport and roller derby is not going to make the grade for an Olympic sport.  You won't find a source that specifically says "Roller derby won't ever be an Olympic sport" because there isn't a movement as far I can tell to do that.  (WFTDA rejection of American allegience makes that difficult.  Such a movement would need to come out of other countries where that partnership exists.) Not particularly arsed either way about its inclusion or not.  The important thing, from my perspective, was that the American only organisation wasn't included because of undue weight, and that roller derby affiliation in other countries with their national roller sports associations be mentioned.  Those national organisations are joined by an international organisation.  The national organisations DO have Olympic recognition.  Beyond that,  by falling under the umbrella of their national roller sport federations, it means they have opportunities for funding from governments, grants, access to training facilities, easier access to sponsors and more legitimate recognition. (Which could all theoritically be citable if one wanted to dig long and hard enough for the sources, but it probably wouldn't be worth the effort for the article.) --LauraHale (talk) 19:33, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 3 October 2011
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Priority on Denise Beckwith
FYI... there has been no "priority" parameter in WikiProject Biography's banner in a few years. It has been replaced by sports-priority, musician-priority, a&e-priority, etc... Bgwhite (talk) 06:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

AIS Alumni category
Hey there, I've answered your query/comment on the talk/discussion page of the new AIS Alumni Category. Please reply on there and not on here so I don't get confused (which I am easily sometimes!) Cls14 (talk) 23:07, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

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This Month in GLAM: September 2011
Unsubscribe · Global message delivery 17:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Austrailian Derby Association?
Surely Oz has some sort of derby association? Don't they?--Nemonoman (talk) 20:25, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Near as I can tell, no. I'm under the impression they are doing most everything through Skate Australia.  Funding opportunities are better there.  They get insurance that way.  Increased legitimacy.  Better access to sponsors.  Given Australia's sport administration landscape, it makes absolute sense to me that they would do it that way.  (Could be wrong, but not seeing the sources to suggest anything else.) --LauraHale (talk) 21:04, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Some Australian leagues are members, others are not. Someone who lives there told me that many of the newer leagues aren't members, and that there's not a lot of happiness in Australian derby circles with SA. That's a second-hand retelling of someone's opinion, of course. But I'll take my Aussie friends' word for it, barring clear evidence to the contrary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.63.33 (talk) 21:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't be surprised. I'm hoping to improve the Roller derby in Australia article to get a better picture of what is going on with the relationship between the leagues and Skate Australia.  The relationship isn't structured the same way as other sports in the organisation, and there country traditionally tends to have strong state federations that do battle with each other and the national federation. --LauraHale (talk) 22:03, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Canberra Roller Derby League GA
Mazel Tov! Nice work. Thanks for blazing the trail for me and others who want to GA their league articles: you really laid out the map. --Nemonoman (talk) 12:36, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks
Hi! Thanks for fixing the Ugg boots RFC - I have an odd problem when on the uni computers, as they have a tendency to freeze when making updates. Most of the time I resend the data and it is ok, but once in a while the data was saved before it was frozen, resulting in a duplicate post. :) - Bilby (talk) 04:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you
Thanks for the cookie, Laura! --Neutralitytalk 05:49, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

RE: IRC
Advertising that works! Appreciated! &mdash; Joseph Fox 11:04, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Guilt? How do you mean? RE: Your article - perfectly fine, always happy to clean stuff up for folk. Now, if you wouldn't mind doing the GA review, too... &mdash; Joseph Fox 11:10, 17 October 2011 (UTC) (PS. That was a joke)
 * I'm the same, really; if you look closely, Joe Danger is fact, fact, fact, with some sentence merging thrown in. Sentence merging is difficult, I'll grant, but well worth learning... :) And about the GA review, that's honestly fine, I'm about as good at editing sports articles as I am BASE jumping. And I have vertigo. &mdash; Joseph Fox 11:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Daniela Di Toro
Orlady (talk) 12:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Hell on Wheels
Hi Laura - after reading your latest comments on the notability thread, about having to give yourself a crash course in the topic, I wondered whether you've seen Hell on Wheels? It's an excellent documentary covering the first couple of years of flat track women's roller derby, and it really shows how far things have come since then. Warofdreams talk 23:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Have not seen it. I have seen the one about the Rat City Roller Derby League.  There is an Australian documentary coming out sometime this year that I'll watch.  Will try to order that film. --LauraHale (talk) 23:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought Blood on the Flat Track, the Rat City one, was a decent study of the league, but it had little on the development of the sport. Is the Australian film This Is Roller Derby?  I saw the trailer before; I'll get a copy unless somebody else here gets one first. Warofdreams talk 00:05, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Troy Sachs
I think that the changes to the lead have now made it a bit unwieldy. I don't think that you need to mention all the individual teams that he played for in the lead. You could look at adding them in the infobox, possibly adding a career history & career highlights section (refer Luc Longley as an example). Also if you could find some additional suplementary references for his participation in the other leagues that would assist the article. Dan arndt (talk) 02:17, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 17 October 2011
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DYK for Alicia Aberley
Thanks from me and the DYK project Victuallers (talk) 12:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)


 * FYI, query here. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:20, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

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DYK for Fabian Blattman
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Romsey Town Rollerbillies
Article Incubator/Romsey Town Rollerbillies now has seventeen sources, a logo, several ELs, and clearly passes Notability (sports) requirements for multiple published, non-trivial, reliable, intellectually and otherwise independent secondary sources, and is pending a move back to userspace by any editor who has not yet edited it per WP:GRADUATION.

Deletion review/Log/2011 October 26 is instructive. Dualus (talk) 15:21, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I have responded to you there and at WT:NSPORTS, asking for the reasons that your proposed notability criteria are so exclusionary. As for your comments about the glorification of violence that I've come across since I started working on this article, I don't know. It sure looks like a problem to me.  I've had very detailed discussions with police, police commissioners, district attorneys, and other men in my situation who have refused to fight back when attacked but still been accused of fighting by their female attackers.  They all say the same thing:  Women are far more likely to initiate domestic violence in a hetrosexual relationship, and are also far more likely to be seriously injured if both sides participate in it, so it makes sense for the police to take the man away if there is any question whether he's been fighting.  On the other hand, maybe roller derby is like porn, allowing the release of otherwise antisocial pressure.  To be completely frank, it scares me!  I wonder if that's how women feel about porn. Dualus (talk) 17:28, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mean to say anything bad about roller derby. Obesity is now the largest cause of preventable deaths in the developed world, with 17% obese in the US in 1974 compared to 35% now. This terrible trend must be reversed at all costs. Organized sports is one way to help people get regular exercise but getting them to eat less is also important. If it were up to me, all organized sports teams of any kind under a much more inclusive general notability criteria would appear in Wikipedia. The glorification of violence is worse in American football than roller derby, especially if actions speak louder than words. That doesn't change the fact that I am genuinely scared of roller derby now but I imagine my curiosity will quickly overcome it. If the glorification of violence is limited to words and not deeds, and allows the release of violent tendencies, that would mean that the sport is fantastically good. Also, if it were up to me, all porn would be entirely computer generated so nobody would be objectified. The fact that the availability of porn was associated with a dramatic drop in both child sex crimes victims and perpetrators means that it is a complex issue. Thank you for taking time to explain so many details. I don't want to disparage your work on trying to come up with notability criteria that would make sense if the amortized cost of disk space were thousands of times what it is. Dualus (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment to LauraHale from talkpage drive by (not even a stalker - no idea why I've got your page on my watchlist). I'd watch this guy's sourcing - that's two "statistics" he appears to have made up to support an argument - but I'm sure you've noticed that too. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:17, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Was it 14% in 1974 and 36% today? I don't know what to say. We're all entitled to our own opinions but not our own peer reviewed secondary literature. Don't kill the messenger. I wish logical deduction was never uncomfortable. Dualus (talk) 02:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There is no connection between female domestic violence and roller derby. The only connection between pornography and roller derby is that they are both beneficial when their deleterious effects are limited. Regarding your comment about research, cited above is both peer reviewed and WP:SECONDARY. Dualus (talk) 19:06, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. I think you'll find that the above user makes no sense, displays no understanding of policy, and has little use for advice from others, but curiously seems to know everything about everything. Enjoy. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)   (talk)  (contribs) 19:40, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Already figured that out. He was giving advice to a user in to do something that he was warned about doing himself leading to him being blocked. Other helpers were pretty much at a loss.  Couldn't engage him much because it led to further disruption of the help channel. He clearly has an agenda, and he is using a topic completely unrelated to try to make it at the expense of women's sport. :( --LauraHale (talk) 20:05, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * What are you accusing me of? On IRC you characterized my "maybe" statement above as "insisting," and made other misrepresentations of my actions which you refused to apologize for. If you had a problem with the advice I gave regarding Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Nurun Inc. I did not read it on IRC. Please bring it to my attention. Dualus (talk) 01:26, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

User talk:Factchecker atyourservice#Talk:Occupy_Wall_Street#Progressive_stack
Do you think it is appropriate to discuss your issues with my actions on a third party's talk page? Why did you refer to me as Centrify's "favourite person"? Are you attempting to take retributive action because you don't like my comments pertaining to roller derby? Dualus (talk) 01:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Sun State Roller Derby League


The article Sun State Roller Derby League has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * No evidence of notability. Little or no coverage even in the sources cited.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Laura, FYI... the Sun State Roller Girls are trying to update this page and ensure everything on it is correct. Many of the things you've posted there are simply incorrect or irrelevant. Notjackbrown (talk) 02:03, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Laura... yep, we're all over it. Thanks too for your efforts. We're keen to get the page as complete and correct as possible. Curious that someone had tagged it for deletion. (We've just had it renamed/moved) Notjackbrown (talk) 02:15, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Re: Gerry Hewson
Hi Laura, all done. The article hasn't lost any words as such, but there's no need to write out a citation more than once, as I've just demonstrated on the article. Graham 87 01:22, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Sun State Roller Girls
Laura, considering the inaccurate and irrelevant information you had posted on the Sun state roller girls page - which all had to be removed - I'm really confused as to why you feel the need to remove factual information, and change formating to something that you personally prefer. Please refrain. Notjackbrown (talk) 09:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

not good enough
Laura, you know that we are in the process of building the page - your interferance is not appreciated. As far as I can see the CRDL page is just as much in need of repair as the Sun State Roller Girls page Notjackbrown (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:33, 25 October 2011 (UTC).

plea
Laura, your page states "I just love the idea of sharing knowledge and trying to help people." So, help the Sun State Roller Girls make a great page - and stop being so difficult. You don't need to keep deleting content. In the time you've taken to delete content because the reference was the front page of a website, you could have instead added a correct reference to a lower level page on the website. Either you want to make a good page or you want to get in the way - which is it?Notjackbrown (talk) 12:21, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

And before you continue to interfere, please understand that i was basing our page on the Gotham_Girls_Roller_Derby page which quite clearly no one has an issue with their formatting. You did not need to remove the subheadings Notjackbrown (talk) 13:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Sun State Roller Girls
Hi - I've taken a look over the article, have made some minor changes to grammar, and have reordered some text so that most sections contain more than one paragraph. I'm not sure that I can do much more to it at present; DYK would be a very tall order as it's no longer a new article, so the text would need to be expanded at least five times. Warofdreams talk 16:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

RH AN/I
He now wants to add more of his sources to a closed AFD. That was the last straw for me so it is now at AN/I. I thought you might like to comment. Ridernyc (talk) 07:36, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Concern
Are you trying to avoid questions about intentional misrepresentation of others' statements and canvassing in the guise of archiving? I still think you should apologize for your misrepresentation of my statements, accusing me of multiple seriously bad things I have not done. If you are truly disturbed by me, then why is ":D" an appropriate annotation for such a deletion? Dualus (talk) 01:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)