User talk:Vanished user j123kmqwfk56jd/2005-1 Archive

Discussions spanning from February 11 to March 30, 2005

'''These are archived conversations. Do NOT edit this page.'''

About wikipedia use of table
As Lima citizen and as student from National University of Saint Mark. i pledge to your conscience, being reasonable on the use of international HTML code to editing table format on wikipedia article of Lima city. I would ask you to use a common wikipedia format on tables about lima city information, as same used in Taipei, Stockholm, and other capitals around the world, avoiding the use of colors which let difficulties on readers with eye problems with blue, red, gray and simmilar colours. As it would be appropiate to use, as same on those cities format without colors as background for headlines and information. User:HappyApple

Article about Lima
Hello, and greetings. I noticed you edit and made receintly good changes on Lima city article on Wikipedia. But i have arguments that may clarify my point of view about Lima history section and about translation of spanish names into english expressions. Finally, I must say apologice to edit pages with wrong grammar, i am not fluent in english as you are but this doesn't mean i cant made contributions so i will improve my english in order can made a proper articles and made Wikipedia better. I think we can made good articles, just about respect, i will respect your contributions and i hope you can respect mine too.HappyApple 04:38, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * However you are right in some way spanish names should not be translated, i considered appropiate to made an exception with peruvian president Alejandro Toledo to Alexander Toledo, considering the fact of historical leaders got their english names for example, Charles I of Spain called by spaniards Carlos I de España. As Alejadro got its english counterpart Alexander i considered accurate to do this translation.
 * The same reason to changing Ciudad de Lima to Lima City is more accurate, we arent on spanish Wikipedia, so i think the most closest expression to name our city on english it is Lima City.
 * Information regarding to international time such as GMT and UTC should be used together.
 * You insist to call City nickname but i think motto is the most accurate term, as same Homepage instead of Website.
 * Remembering about history of university in which i am currently studying, National University of Saint Mark was called this way in honor of Saint Mark one of apostles in a vote just days after the papal bull was sign, his representation in middle ages was a lion because of its courage, and you can see this in the university coat of arms. I consider accurate call it National University of Saint Mark instead San Marcos because the spanish name of the saint has an english translation.

About corrections on Lima article
It is important to do a personal research before to do a contribution so i did. *On Britannica Encyclopedia and Encarta and even in Espasa Calpe encyclopedia referers the word demographics as a branch for statistics in which compromises population, geographic information, politics, nationality and overall data regarding to country management, geography, geology, and state policies, a reason for that i still use Demographics in the top of the chart because it is. Thank you to take time to read my arguments and help to improve article of Lima.HappyApple 13:21, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I can accept Alejandro Toledo instead Alexander, you win. But i must say i remember have saw this kind of translation in Taiwanese magazine. Taiwan-ROC
 * I think use of Lima instead Lima city or Ciudad de Lima can be a better accord, however the use of Ciudad de Lima is on spanish and we are on English Wikipedia it should be better by parenthesis.
 * The mass transit metro was a still current event at that time, as it is still this as initial part of the agreement and not yet known the date of beginning construction of pending tracks it should be better to highlight the information with a markup.
 * Finally, Checking up about History of Lima, the name was originally took from flowers at the entrance of city which spanish conquistadors saw in the bottom of the hills called limaq-limaq by the amerindian dwellers, the use of motto istead nickname is certainly by slogan not nickname like popular belief, the reason its on spanish settlers come after lima was found, they prefered use of City of the Kings or shortly known as The Kings by a campaing promoted by spanish authorities in refusing native given names, with the time this was forgot on history.
 * Your argument about Official Website is remarkable so i can accept that because you take from wikipedia tables template, However i must say please apply these changes to the municipalities and articles regarding to peruvian geography you created and/or improved.
 * I still consider it is need to accept the correction regarding to time, as UTC and GMT used together in the chart because two have the same concepts and in same astronomical formula to get the time.

Arequipa's changes
StarbucksFreak, do you have a messenger (like msn, yahoo) where I can contact you regarding some changes to Arequipa's article? let me know.

About Lima motto/nickname consensus
As we are on english wikipedia, i think it would be appropiate to explain on english rather then spanish. Many historians have gone to consensus the use of City of Kings instead Lima was promoted as a slogan highlighted by spanish nobility in Peru, loyal vassals from Charles I of Spain and his court also used this designation to Lima at that time too, as also appeared in maps from cartographers. There is consensus in many historians for the use of City of the Kings as motto instead of nickname.
 * Francisco Pizarro called Lima to newly capital of spanish viceroyalty in peru by amerindian flower called limaq-limaq.
 * The use of City of the Kings instead Lima dates back from the time of the fourth viceroy in Peru, Diego Hurtado of Mendoza.
 * Yes i use MSN, feel free to contact me at feudalism_monarchy@hotmail.com or here by wikipedia.HappyApple 15:06, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

General Lima chart and other consensus
Hello, i am glad to receive your message, i want to say first, this is not a war, it is just discussion about being specific with information.
 * Your argument are aceptable about Lima information chart, i encouraged to use wikipedia standard and you did, so i wont modify the information table.
 * However in many references i have checked, demographics it is more then just human populations, grew, density and distribution, as branch from statistics compromises, geographic, geological, social and human distribution as well, and compromises all what it is on table.
 * I also insist to put motto, intead nickname because of its historical accuracy.
 * I think i can help you with information you need to improve other articles.

Personal opinion
I noticed you are planning to go University of Lima, i wish to invite you join us Saint Mark National University, the institution it has over four centuries and as student i feel it lacks from people with new thoughs. Globalization and open mind to capitalist and industrial ideals from 90's has made a remarkable progress and improve on general alumni and teaching but not enough, the institution still has people with decadent ideals of socialist reforms from the 70's and 80's, hopefully not in all faculties :) I feel it is time for new generation of students, so it is up to you, and welcome :)
 * Feel free to contact me or adding me on MSN messenger any time, we can share information about articles.HappyApple 22:03, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Miraflores
See Lambayeque region, there's another mention of Miraflores in Santiago de Miraflores de Saña. Maybe you can add that to the Miraflores disamb page. MH 00:13, 2005 Feb 26 (UTC)

Peruvian History
Hello. I see that you modify in some way the article about the "War of the Pacific". My user name is Messhermit and I like to cooperate with you in articles related to history and geography. My current topic is about the Peru-Bolivian Confederacy. I would like to recive your Opinions in the talk page and some advises there to increase his accuracy. Messhermit 02:10, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please add straw poll and vote
Congratulations the first under the new system. I have put in a straw poll on to Talk:Puno, Peru you will need to vote. You need to do something similar on Talk:Piura, Peru -- Philip Baird Shearer 09:42, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Peru templates
I guess I'll do what you request. I have a question though: I visually prefer the Ancash region-type, has the move been discussed somewhere (or a comparable move for another series of tables) ? _R_ 20:09, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

HappyApple vs. Wikipedia Naming policies
See this: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Interpretation of WP Naming_policies. Despite all the arguments against it, HappyApple insists on doing things his way. Sigh... -- Viajero 23:04, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Despite the results of the vote you arranged, HappyApple is still at it. See: Sigh... -- Viajero 17:18, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the note. HappyA also reverted me four times on the UMSM article this afternoon. If he keeps up this behaviour, I will list him on RfC under problem users. -- Viajero 20:18, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Reaching a compromise and consensus
Hello and greetings =) I wish to have your personal opinion about the naming policy of calling the university Saint Mark instead San Marcos, i am supporting Saint Mark based in the opinion of the Catholic Church(which has given and approved the vote of the name itself) precedent of anglicise the name.[] Article from Catholic Encyclopedia, i would ask your opinion from a peruvian to peruvian.

However we disagree in some points of view about Lima article, you know me, i am a kind person and always open to dialog.

User:Viajero without reach a compromise or even a civilized talk is attempting to destroy all the places in which the anglicise name of Saint Mark to San Marcos exists using the arguments i am dissobey rules of naming policies, However i must remind that in the top of this rules it said this

'''Naming convention are not rules written in stone ... and there may be cases where a particular convention is "obviously" inappropriate.'''

I dont think so i deserve to be treated this way.

It is not fair if i disagree with somebody i deserve to be a candidate to be under pressure to be banned.

Please it is urgently to have your opinion about this in the following link Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Interpretation of WP Naming_policies].HappyApple 05:32, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Regions of Peru upper/lowercase
Hi StarbucksFreak, replied to you about uppercase/lowercase at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Subnational_entities saludos cordiales Tobias Conradi 15:30, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi StarbucksFreak, I am not renaming it because it 'looks' more standard, but it is more standard. There are lot of interferences with other subnational entities, one example being the War of the Pacific. Other examples being Bolívar in general and Bolívar Province, Córdoba Province, Tierra del Fuego Province and several parishes (e.g. Saint George Parish). Without using one naming scheme for all subnational entities the possibility for wrong links is much higher. Imagine "Córdoba (province)" being the title for the argentinean article and "Córdoba province" for the one in Spain. Probably a lot of wrong links will be set. I allready found several of these wrong links. Province is such a widespread word that there are several provinces around the world with the same name. I really hope you can understand my intention and we can agree here. Even, yes even if it is not the best solution if one looks on Peru only. Sometimes compromises need to be made. Would like to here from you. Un cordial salud Tobias Conradi 03:24, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * thanks for your reply. Redirects do not solve the problems that I mentioned above. E.g. if you have "Córdoba (province)" AR and "Córdoba province" ES and someone writes Córdoba (province) or has written this before the articles existed than the link is simply wrong if he would like to refer to the province in Spain. Instead "Córdoba (province)" and "Córdoba province" both should lead to a disambig page that mentions the correct article titles. What would you do with Bolívar Province? Make Ecuador provinces all lowercase? The mixed naming schemes are confusing and I did not found evidence that uppercase in general is wrong. I would like to quote something about correctness, from a discussion on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Rivers Tobias Conradi 03:56, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

--qoute start--


 * That's exactly why we have to have a single convention, to avoid guessing. Not to say that in one language River may be part of the name, while not in another one, for the same river. In such cases the primary goal is convenience for numerous editors; readers are more interested in correct and complete contents of the actual article, which may contain all possible names and spellings.


 * When writing an article full of personal and geographic names it is a great pain to double-check each and every name. It is especially confusing in the case of missing articles. When we have red links for Qaxan River, Qaxan, Qaxan river, Qaxan (river) Quaxan River, Quaxan, Quaxan river, Quaxan (river), Qazan River, Qazan, Qazan river, Qazan (river), great chances are that after some time we will have duplicate articles, with pain in the neck remaining to collect all the remaining red links into one place. This kind of discussion happened for numerous other things: Aircraft carriers, lakes, etc. And nearly always the best solution is a single solution, even if sometimes it produces awkward and unusual article titles, like Vasili IV of Russia, who is overwhelmingly known as Vasili Shuisky  Mikkalai 21:42, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

--qoute end--

one more that I found Santa Cruz including Santa Cruz Province in AR and PE. If you think the word province is not widespread: maybe look at province. You allways claim uppercase is wrong, I may cite myself: I did not found evidence that uppercase in general is wrong. Why you allways claim this without evidence? And even if it is wrong after peruvian-english, it might not be wrong in general. If it is wrong in general than 5000 province articles should be moved. Tobias Conradi 05:17, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

why is it wrong in peruvian-english? Furthermore please tell me if you find evidence that it is wrong in general english. Tobias Conradi 05:49, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the google links. It is not that the spanish capitalization for Argentina or Ecuador is respected. If it would be lowercase in Argentina it would not matter. In the es:WP it might be important, but not in en:WP. For Russia, Sweden, and much more others uppercase is used too ( Oblasts of Russia, Counties of Sweden ) whilst in the national language it is lowercase. It is really not that Peru gets different treatment. I only looked how it is done in english in most cases and I found uppercase. It is not US: "New York city", "Albany county", CA: "Northwest territorries", AU: "Northern territory", "Australian Capital territory". In english uppercase is widespread. un cordial salud Tobias Conradi 06:39, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hola Tuomas. Thanks a lot for your answer. Some weight is falling from my shoulders. I really hope this profits the whole wikipedia. I will do more conversion tomorrow. Please tell me, is there any use to wikify the provinces on these old department pages, those that have no region template yet? If I touch the pages I can maybe do this in the same run. Tobias Conradi 07:17, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)