User talk:Vanished user sdjei4o346jowe3/Archive 1

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Orphaned non-free image File:Tartessian2.JPG
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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 08:44, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Image is now used as examples on the Tartessian southwesterm script page. Thank you Stan.Jembana (talk) 00:23, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 08:45, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Image is now used as examples on the Tartessian southwesterm script page. Thank you Stan.Jembana (talk) 00:21, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)
Please review and comment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)

JohnLloydScharf (talk) 23:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I am reviewing this material but there seems to be rather a lot of discussion about it that will take me some time to cover. I need to consider all the arguments presented on the Talk page.Jembana (talk) 11:05, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I see you already have better feedback than I can provide so I am going to leave it there especially since you don't reply to emails sent to you.Jembana (talk) 06:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I did not get any emails, but this depends on consensus, not information, it seems. I am johnlloydscharf@yahoo.com

Sorry I did not answer,but
Please review the map, the work of Tofanelli et al, Hassan et al, and comment in the discussions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HG_J1_(ADN-Y)

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblock/94d/Hassan%202008%20Y-Chromosome%20Variation%20Among%20Sudanese.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384897/figure/FG1/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)

Essentially, the issue is whether J1 dominates in Sudan and the Caucasus at over 60%. John Lloyd Scharf 09:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, from the references supplied you can say that from the limited sampling done it appears that males in certain groups or regions may have a dominance of J1 such as north-central Sudan or Dagestan in the Caucasus for instance. Distribution appears very variable within the larger Sudan and Caucasus umbrella areas with great variation in occurrence between various ethnic groups. It would help to be specific as to these ethnic groups such as presenting them in a table. Interesting complex in both areas BTW suggesting possible disparate origins for the ethnic groups.Jembana (talk) 11:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I see editors on the J1 page have already done that - hence strikethrough. Why is there a problem then ?Jembana (talk) 11:28, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Tartessian
Hey Jembana, just seen your email. That book looks like a good catch, but exactly those few pages where Broderick deals with Tartessian are missing from the preview I get. In the intro, he is perfectly neutral, merely mentioning that Koch thinks it's Celtic. That's all there is. However, and this is where the fun part starts, my local library has the book in its reference section, and I am off tomorrow... with a few books to return! I'll let you know what he has to say. :-) Trigaranus (talk) 14:09, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Much obliged - thanks :-)
 * I see you've been doing a lot of work on the Tartessian language article. It looks really good now, especially compared to earlier (wasn't half the article at one point made up of scans from Koch or something?). Half-good news on the Brunswick book though (well, good news on the book, because it made me drool and I want to have it, even though there seems to be a typo per page) because he doesn't offer any opinion himself (I'll give you a quick translation of what he writes).

"Tartessian Ignorance of the roughly 80+ inscriptions on the South-Western Iberian Peninsula was very great for a time. It already means a lot that the decipherment suggested by Manuel Gómez Moreno (1962) has slowly been gaining support. Recently however, linguists have been more and more successful at deciphering and dating the inscriptions. But Untermann (1995) suggested a date between 700 and 500 BC, as did Villar (2004:268), whilst Rodrigez (sic) Ramoz (2002) takes them to date post 800 BC (likely between the 6th and 5th c.) and Correa (2005) between the 7th and 5th c. BC. Koch (2009) regards them as Celtic. 5.1 Tartessian epigraphics As the only sample of Tartessian epigraphics, the longest of the relevant texts will be reproduced here: a stone plate found in Bemsafrin in the Algarve, now kept in Figueira da Foz. The characters exhibit clear similarities to Iberian letters; on the other hand the arrangement of lines in spirals characteristic of many Tartessian inscriptions is remarkable. This was taken to indicate an especially great age of these inscriptions, considering them the earliest specimens of indigenous epigraphy on the peninsula (Tovar 1961:36-49). More recent archaeological research into the contexts of the finds, however, seem to contradict an early dating, while the script itself rather exhibits symptoms of isolated secondary and local development (e.g. the strikingly frequent duplication of characters) of which the other Iberian epigraphic traditions were not part. As the corpus consists solely of stone inscriptions with only a single coin legend from the same area (MLH.A. 103), an important tool, which had been a decisive help in deciphering the Northeastern scripts, is missing. The standing of many Tartessian inscriptions is still under debate, and it is still not possible to state anything certain about their linguistic structure or even the contents of the texts (n. 35: First attempts at identifying the language in Schmoll (1961:40-43).) It must be assumed that here a language is attested which is not identical with any of the Hispanic languages. The inscriptions run from the right to the left. An example."
 * The then goes on to quote the inscription (J.1.1. Fonte Velha 5, Bemsafrim, Lagos) from Koch (2009) without any additions of his own, as it seems. It's the l-o-ko-o-bo-o n-i-i-r-a-bo-o / LOGOBO NERABO inscription, which Koch has suggested quite a comprising a reading on based entirely on Celtic parallels. Brunswick does not give any opinion of his own I'm afraid. Still, I'm gonna hit the ZVAB to check out if the book can be had. I hate reference sections with their "in-house-only" rules. ;-) Best, Trigaranus (talk) 17:28, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's so lovely of you to go to this effort. I think you are so helpful - thanks very much :) I think this material should be mentioned on the page - interesting that it has so much of Koch's work on it regarding the inscriptions (and no other attempts) - more of an endorsement I think.Jembana (talk) 11:53, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Trigaranus, I have done some research into Broderick's introduction (before he uses Koch's 2009 Celtic translations to fill the majority of the Tartessian section of his book) - would you be interested in hearing the results ?Jembana (talk) 21:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Having a break ? Ah, well, I'll do it anyway so you can read it later:

1. Broderick is mistaken on dating of the script, he said: More recent archaeological research into the contexts of the finds, however, seem to contradict an early dating. However, the "more recent archaeological research" actually gives dates around 650/625 BC - this is for the Tartessian inscription in the Medellin necropolis (and the stone on the inscription was already reused in this context so it may be earlier). 2.He is also mistaken about the coin legend which you can find online - it has no syllable-vowel redundancy which is the characteristic feature of the Tartessian script as defined by Ulrich Schmoll. In Tartessian script there are symbols for syllables (a consonant followed by a vowel) with a following symbol for a vowel which is redundant since it is understood anyway in the syllable. I will put up some clearer examples than that on the page already including the Espanca stone which is a Tartessian inscription of their own abekatu (alphabet) in 2 rows like we do for ABC... for example. So the coin inscription is a furphy. From the above it appears that Broderick is an unreliable reference - like to hear your thoughts on this.Jembana (talk) 21:45, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Ligures
Jembana, you need to stop edit warring on this page or you will be blocked from editing. I've delivered the same warning to Cagwinn. Please initiate a discussion on the talk page.--Cúchullain t/ c 16:28, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but I was already discussing the subject on Cagwinn's talk page before you intervened. Didn't you see that ? I will move the discussion to the Ligures talk page instead tonight.Jembana (talk) 22:39, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I saw some discussion on Cagwinn's page, but not on at the article itself. Thank you for engaging in discussion rather than continuing to revert.--Cúchullain t/ c 12:20, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

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Modern Celts
The band is fine. As I recall, there was a big effort at one point to use Wikipedia to publicise that constructed language. It evidently even has English syntax. But it has just a few hits which suggests it's not taken very seriously. Thanks for your cooperation. Dougweller (talk) 11:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Doug - for your information I just found a discussion forum about this language and posted a link on Cagwinn's talk page. I didn't know it had been discussed before. Seems like someone's gone to a lot of effort to do this. It would be interesting to know the motivation.Jembana (talk) 11:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Categorization
Hi Jembana! I just rolled back your edit and removed the Scottish Gaelic-language category back to List of Celtic choirs. Wiki policy is to make sure the article is in the most specific category which in this case is Scottish Gaelic music and not language. Since it's already in the music cat (which is a subcat of the language cat) it doesn't need to go into the language cat. See WP:CAT for more information. :) Joshua Lee talk softly, please 23:35, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Ceart! Moran taing :)Jembana (talk) 23:49, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Beaker culture
What exactly is in Cunliffe, Barry (2010). Celtic from the West Chapter 1: Celticization from the West: The Contribution of Archaeology. Oxbow Books, Oxford, UK. pp. 27-31. ISBN 978-1-84217-410-4. that is definitive about the date? This is an edited book, who wrote the chapter (and what is is called)? Thanks. Oh, and "Previously, many theories of the origins" - doesn't really make sense, what are you trying to say? Dougweller (talk) 12:11, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Barry Cunliffe wrote the chapter and gives the probable date and origin of the Beaker culture. The chapter is called "Celticization from the West: The Contribution of Archaeology". He is a world-renowned archaeologist - see wikilink. I will remove the earlier theories since they no longer apply.Jembana (talk) 21:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I know who he is, but who says they no longer apply? Is his dating accepted by other archaeologist? What is his reasoning for that date? Dougweller (talk) 21:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The radiocarbon dating of Beaker sites and it is now generally accepted that the Maritime Bell Beakers are the earliest. The earliest sites are in Portugal.Jembana (talk) 22:01, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Cunliffe also points out that after its spread north a secondary Rhineland core developed which did have interaction with the Corded-ware cultures and there was then backflow of these new developments to other areas. I will refine this tonight to make it plain but I have to go to earn a crust now. Talk to you again tonight perhaps. I live down under.Jembana (talk) 22:12, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

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McEvoy and Bradley
Hi Jembana;

I'm new to wikipedia, so I'm still learning how to "edit". Because my "speciality" is I2a2b (I-L38) I think the Wikipedia community can benefit of the knowledge on this haplpogroup.

So, yesterday I updated the I2a2b paragraphs to distribute the latest finds about this haplogroup.

I do not quite understand why did you undo my update.

In the former current version a 2008 paper of mine is cited, making it look like I-L38 only is to be found in the Upper Rhine and British Isles (this simply is not true). Later investigations and papers (published in the RJGG)refined this view. In the meantime more of I-L38's history is revealed. I summarized it's layered history in the edit of yesterdag evening.

Also the current information on the Lichtenstein cave is elaborate but not entirely relevant for I2a2b. To this haplogroup it is important to emphasize that the Lichtenstein people belonged to a Urnfield culture (and more precisely to the Unstrut group).

I am following I2a2b on a daily base for years now. The migration to Ireland may have been published but it does not fit any known pattern and I never heard it mentioned/discussed before.

My question: what are your remarks on my update?

Best, HansDeBeule (talk) 19:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Hans - you removed my reliably sourced statement from

McEvoy and Bradley's peer-reviewed chapter in the Celtic from the West publication (2011) among other sources. In our edits we work in with others reliably sourced contributions. We do not remove reliably sourced contributions since that would just be promoting our own point of view (POV) when there may be a diversity of reliable findings on the subject matter. If there is a diversity in the reliable findings then this can be expressed, generally in chronological order with the latest findings at the end.

Please look on the subject matter's page talk - I briefly outlined why I reverted your edit at the time and that is where this should be discussed if needed.Jembana (talk) 00:49, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Jembana, Point taken; I should not have removed your reliable reference of the McEvoy and Bradley chapter. I agree that reliable sourced contributions should not be removed in favour of a point of view (POW). Since you refer to my papers (footnotes 24 and 25) I conclude you do not think I'm unreliable, so I wonder why you did remove my contribution. There very very likely is a link between the spread of I-L38 and Celtic culture, but it sure it is not the only or most important migration to explain the spread of I-L38. In this respect I think this POV is far too much emphasized in the current paragraph. This also is why I added the explanations of spread of I-L38 to Low Countries, East Europe, America, etc. Do you add them? 212.123.0.8 (talk) 11:19, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Hans

That's good - thanks. I will read your additions with interest :) Jembana (talk) 00:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Jembana - I have the book Celtic from the West. I can see exactly what McEvoy and Bradley said. The problem is that they identify the haplogroup in question only as I1c (an old name for M223 - back in 2005! http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2005-05/1115846091 ). You have to go back to some of their other work to find out that what they are talking about is a subclade of M223 found in Britain i.e. M284.--Genie (talk) 10:41, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

See McEvoy and Bradley, Y-chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames, Human Genetics (2006). There they give the markers tested, which include only M170 and M26 from the haplogroup I tree. The McCartan and McGuiness results were M170+ and M26-. That is all they knew at that time. Now I'm not sure where the I1c comes from! --Genie (talk) 11:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Then, how can it be both "exclusively confined to Great Britain" as you say and "relatively common on continental Europe" as McEvoy and Bradley say in their peer-reviewed 2010 chapter in Celtic from the West ? McEvoy and Bradley are clearly talking about the La Tene marker subclade.Jembana (talk) 12:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Jembana - I understand your confusion. La Tene is mentioned by McEvoy and Bradley in connection with their "I1c". La Tene has been mentioned by Hans de Beule in relation to the clade he has been investigating for several years - I2a2b (L38/S154). But that doesn't make them the same haplogroup. McEvoy and Bradley won't have the faintest clue about the work of Hans, which has only been published fairly recently and not in any journal that McEvoy and Bradley will have read. McEvoy and Bradley say that that McCartan and McGuiness men carry a Y-chromosome "belonging to a family ..I1c". In other words they carry a subclade of the one on the continent. This fits M284, found in Britain, a subclade of M223 (formerly known as I1c). M223 has a peak in Germany. Here is the result of one McGuiness : "My Paternal Lineage: Surname McGINNIS. Y-DNA Haplogroup is I1b2a. Apparently my brother has a rare mutation called M284." http://olivetreegenealogy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/my-y-dna-mtdna-surnames-haplogroups.html --Genie (talk) 12:16, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Point taken - I have fixed the wording so it now makes sense. Thanks for your input.Jembana (talk) 12:40, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Golasecca culture and Celtic culture
Is it a your contribution? . I need help. What is the exact point of the document where the author clearly states that Golasecca is a Celtic culture? Thank you. --Tursclan (talk) 17:57, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. They say that Golasecca is a Celtic culture using a Celtic language as attested by inscriptions in the area dated to the time of the Golasecca culture.Jembana (talk) 22:44, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Please, can you report me the exact point? I don't find the exact point that states that Golasecca is a Celtic culture. The oldest inscription written in Lepontic language using the alphabet of Lugano, one of five main Northern Italic alphabets derived from the Etruscan alphabet, is dated 525 BC. The Golasecca culture started in IX century BC. --Tursclan (talk) 09:56, 28 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, it is plain from what is written there that Stifter means that the language of the Golaseccans was Celtic. The inscriptions start in the last 2 periods of the Golasecca culture. This is the date that the Golaseccan's Celtic Lepontic language is first attested. The table in David Stifter's paper clearly says there is continuity since the 12th century BC which linguistic phase he labels as Early Lepontic:

Golasecca culture since 9th c., without break since 12th c. [cont. ← G I A-C (9th–7th c.) ← Proto-Golasecca (12th–10th c.) ← Canegrate (13th–12th c.)

I have copied Kruta's citation after the word "Celtic" so it directly attests this too as well as being at the end of the sentence.

Please do not remove these citations again - they state quite plainly that the Golaseccans were Celtic.Jembana (talk) 12:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)