User talk:Varga Mila

Thank you and welcome to icon box madness
I just found out about icon boxes a few days ago, and went mad. Did you catch that mental illness from me?

Thank you for digging up the the text from way past in the muhammed issue.

By the way, since you are studying Chimpanzee Communication, did you read Greenspans "The First Idea"? DanielDemaret 13:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Illustrious? You seem to know about, and already have opinions about the book? By the way, my interest has more to do about thought in general than about chimps. Thinking is my prime hobby :) DanielDemaret 22:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I had better defend myself by lowering your expectations of the book right away. I like the book, but I am aware that one major reason is that it supports ideas that I had even before reading it. The reason I thought you might have heard about it is that it compares thinking in apes with thinking in humans. I have no idea what you will think of it if and when you read it :) DanielDemaret 00:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Danish humour
"People hardly ever make use of the freedom they have. For example, the freedom of thought. Instead they demand freedom of speech as a compensation." Søren Kierkegaard DanielDemaret 17:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

My favourite quote from the book
'The means do not justify the ends. The means define the ends' - The first idea Just to get you going :) DanielDemaret 14:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I can hardly wait. The review I read speaks near poetry, and your recommendation is a fine one. As of now, I am drowning in analyses, trying to determine whether the damn chimps are intentionally trying to share knowledge. Its not looking bright; only the dominants seem to do so intentionally. ~ And I guess it doesn't take a political scientist to picture the road to which that might lead : ) Varga Mila 15:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

That sounds absolutely fascinating! I wish I could help you over there. Unfortunately, I am very naïve. Does it lead to some kind of totalitarian propaganda being spread across the population? DanielDemaret 17:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Presumably along the lines of: I'm strong and I'm always going to get my way. I'm in Scotland by the way... over there?Varga Mila 18:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I wish I could help you with the chimp analysis where you are over there in the the Gothenburg Archipelago (that should cover it). But it is too long to swim.DanielDemaret 18:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Could that sad propagandistic conclusion be used to support a conspirational evolutionary theory on why chimps did not evolve further in the Brain Size Department?DanielDemaret 19:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know about its specific effect on brain size, but one of the most significant voices in comparative cognition, Mike Tomasello, has proposed that it is exactly the desire, need and inclination to share information that has made humans take a different evolutionary path from all others species (including chimpanzees). I doubt my findings will hold statistically (my sample size is too small), but if it would, it would be a first (controlling for multitudes of alternative explanations).Varga Mila 16:58, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps if there were chimp groups without any dominants, ( and possibly only with chimps reared by humans) there might be a different pattern of knowledge sharing?DanielDemaret 19:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There are voices claiming this. An American girl who kept and studied an orangutan in her campervan for many years (yes...hmm) claims something along those lines, but suspiciously, if I remember right, refused others unconstrained access to her data. And not surprisingly the orang didn't perform quite so well when there were others around : )


 * The most fascinating stuff comes from a Sue Savage-rumbaugh, who has raised and interacted with several bonobos as were they children. They seem to pass one type of theory of mind test (a test of self consciousness - understanding that someone may have a different perception of reality than oneself, and thereby, by implication, understanding that one is a psychological entity, separate from others). But I am somewhat critical of her claims. Always weary when someone repeats the same claims and spend their lives proving rather than exploring ~ They usually have an agenda ~ be it control, as in terms of the take on the censorship issues discussed at the Muhammad cartoon page or mustering wind for the sails of conservationists (if one can claim that Chimps~humans in terms of psychology, funding and conservation attention will sky rocket).Varga Mila 16:58, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * So many degrees/aspects of self consciousness, aren't there? One realization that this over here feels whem touched and it moves when I want it to, one when the caretaker seems to be the same as I am somehow, perhaps that leading to the idea of imitation(?), one when when one gets surprised at the difference again, and one when one decides to connect different things to a self history. And lots more. I wish there were a good book on this subject. Perhaps you know of one? :) DanielDemaret 17:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think it is a consequence of the constant moving of the 'goalpost' (as some would call it). Each time non-human animals are found to demonstrate a class of behaviours that would entail a certain degree of awareness, a new category has to be devised (or erected) to explain the difference in culture, behaviour etc. between 'them' and 'us'.
 * You might like The Cultural Origins of Human Cognition by Michael Tomasello (1999). It is an easy read, but wonderfully theoretical with lots of creative and original thought, as well as empirical data. He thinks beyond beyond the box.Varga Mila 20:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

YesVarga Mila 15:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Translation
I am unhappy about my translation from danish in the cartoon timeline on March 1. "utsendingene", for example, I can not think of a good word in english for that. Any suggestions?DanielDemaret 12:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Daniel, I don't quite understand. Is the first sentence the original Danish ? : ) If so, we should swap most of the t's for d's (presumably you have a wise linguistic explanation for the 'hard' Swedish' vs. the soft' Danish?). I've written the Danish equivalent in hard [!] brackets after the Swaensk word. 'Ifølge den svenske rikskringkastingen SVT har FNs sikkerhetsansvarlige [sikkerhedsansvarlige] på Vestbredden informert [indformeret] de skandinaviske utsendingene [udsendinge - this sounds a bit strange, one would normally use 'udsendte'] om truslene, som skal gå ut [ud] på at "en dansk diplomat eller lignende" skal kidnappes og drepes [dræbes].' roughly translates to 'According to SVT, (Swedish Television), those responsible for UN security on the west bank have informed scandinavians about the threats concerning a danish diplomat or some such that is to be kidnapped and killed.'Varga Mila 13:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The text was copied directly from the danish web page of the paper. Please have a look at it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy#.5B.5BMarch_1.5D.5D

I guess you will have to scroll down to March 1st.

Could I ask you a favour, and correct anything you want directly on that page?DanielDemaret 13:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC) DanielDemaret 13:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I see.. its Norwegian (Swensk isn't too far off then, I presume). It looks fine, bar the "or some such", but I can't think of a better translation.Varga Mila 13:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

ooooooooooops, its a norwegian paper. hehe.DanielDemaret 13:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC) Yes. well. it is a lot easier to hear the difference :)

I don't like the "or some such" either. *think, think, think*.

Perhaps "or equivalent" is better?

I went for equivalent. I translated the intro to the article since the heading said little, and most would not understand ...... norwegian.....DanielDemaret 13:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh... I take too long to reply.. It is definitely much better English. It sounds funny however, when what one is describing are humans ('humans, or equivalent'). But, yes, I think you should put 'equivalent in. I am sure an English native (or should it be 'someone native in English' will correct it if its too far off.Varga Mila 13:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC) 1 million articles. I almost have an urge to go to Scotland and visit Jordanhill railway station since it is what article 1 million is about.DanielDemaret 13:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I put in equivalent, and I am now vascillation between "or similar" and "or the like". Possible "or other public official", which might sound better, but be less true to the original ambuigity. Than pain. The agony. The angst. Right now I am very happy that I did not become translator like my father was. DanielDemaret 13:58, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The power of translators... Yes, the Berlitz Imperium.
 * Vacillation... that must be new word of the day.Varga Mila 14:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * How did you know my parents where the directors of Berlitz in Sweden? Of course, in those days it was a school franchise. DanielDemaret 14:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC) Was it the hint in my archive where I wrote that I was literally born in a school of languages?DanielDemaret 14:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry: I meant : "vacillating".

DanielDemaret 14:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

YesVarga Mila 15:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Balance
Is balance always good? Varga Mila 21:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hehe. No, not always. "At least there is balance" is just a quote from "Babylon 5". DanielDemaret 22:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Twist
You seem to have a different source than JP, when you detected that JP is mis-representing him. Perhaps you could get that source into the talk about the cartoons? DanielDemaret 22:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Language School-reference
In the 70s we once taught a man advanced spanish in 2 weeks. He only had two weeks before meeting Castro, so we really did not have a choice. The school is long gone now. As a hobby, I try to teach my computer english. This has of course led to much fun trying to understand thought. :) DanielDemaret 22:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

However
One could simply delete the word "however",couldn't one? . The shorter, the better.DanielDemaret 12:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Aye Aye CaptainVarga Mila 12:14, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Shiver me timbers! That was a fast edit.DanielDemaret 12:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Tomasello
As I was ordering the book, Amazone thought I should also order "A Usage-Based Theory of Language Acquisition" by Tomasello. Have you read that one?DanielDemaret 12:40, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No, but it sounds spot on for your computer endeavour! His papers on human language acquisition are (a bit heavy for me) but spectacular in their gradual laying bare the development of consciousness in children - and how it feeds back into and integrates with language ~ all backed up by ingeniously simple and clear experiments.Varga Mila 12:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I am pretty sure I have seen him referenced in some of what I have read. I shall now add Tomasello to my little library.DanielDemaret 13:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * ) Hope he and my recommendation are worth it. Let me know what you think when you get around to reading it.Varga Mila 13:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Thuggee
Regarding the vandal and unfriendly 62.116.76.117 Raphael. He seems to want to discuss the rights of religious groups. I am sorely tempted bringing up the religios group Thuggee, but I am not sure I would get a coherent answer. Also, Theresa Knott's comment that this is not the place for religious discussions. DanielDemaret 18:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC) Sorry, she wrote "philosofical discussions". Still valid, I think.DanielDemaret 18:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I know. Point taken. I know it is wiser to not engage in certain discussions. Sometimes, however, there are comments / assertions that I find difficult to leave unchallenged or -commented. I'll restrain myself duly ;-)Varga Mila 18:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, the argument of 'choice' in terms of choosing a religion rests on shaky grounds. I think that is what you were referring to...


 * I think I guessed your unasked question regarding Thuggee...If my guessing is right, my answer would be 'no'. Varga Mila 18:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no idea what question you mean. *whistles innocently with blue eyes looking at his fingernails*.


 * Actually, I am not 100% certain what you mean about the quetion. I was just joking above.
 * I actually wanted to congratulate you on your restraint, and perhaps ask you not to hold back ;)
 * My original semi-bred idea was probably to suggest we work on a lethal riposte towards him, but at the same time parts of me where chiding me for that very silly idea.


 * However, I suppose it is an interesting question in itself. Does one have the right to mock a religion in general? If it is Thuggee or Ritual Satanism, perhaps there is a case? I wonder whether there is an article about this question already in wikipedia. DanielDemaret 19:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There are too many embedded clauses here: I think you think he would think, and so I think....
 * I think I thought you thought he might think that Thugge'ism would be a matter of choice and therefore crime, while I think you think that the social transmission of Thuggee'ism would effectively border on making it 'racial'..(or at least I think that is the point you would take, for the sake of the argument - but what do I know...
 * And I thought you thought that you would then 'catch him out', so to speak. But ... who knows


 * Anyway, your article in mind would be even more hotly contested than the MCs.Varga Mila 19:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a simple mind. I was not trying to catch anyone out. Really. I was just a bit heated and wanted a simple retort. Really. :) DanielDemaret 19:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Really... !? ;)Varga Mila 22:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Your mind is much to advanced for me. Remind me never to argue against you :)DanielDemaret 19:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * While scouting around for vile arguments, and incidentally finding a longer list of awful religions, I found out a tidbit of information that I did not know. Ritual Human Sacrifice is still very much in use and not so seldom practiced today. One never stops learning, does one? DanielDemaret 19:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well... I certainly never stop. I keep relearning the same information. Again 'n again 'n again. The trials of a sieve like mind...:) Varga Mila 19:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Anyway, a lethal riposte would be fabulous. You could have it permanently posted next to the 'how to disable the image' section :)Varga Mila 19:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I was of course just being silly. I am man, after all. Heat of the moment, sort of thing.

Koan
I have a Koan for you.

If a man talks in the middle of the forest, and there is no woman around, is he still wrong? DanielDemaret


 * Laden with philosophical intrigue.
 * Yes, he is wrong. Only without her, he doesn't know why.
 * Perhaps Berkley, would ask you, does her absence matter..?
 * Surely the trees still feel the falling. So hurt must still be hurt. And killing still be killing ? Varga Mila 22:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Beautiful. *Big bulky man starts to sob* DanielDemaret 23:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, and if there was some hidden question or statement in the piece of pure poetry above, please spell it right out. I am a mere man, you know. DanielDemaret 10:17, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No, no hidden statement, question or indeed agenda Varga Mila 18:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Save that your Koan made me think of Hitler's remark, "Who remembers the extermination of the Armenians?"
 * And his suggestion, that anything beyond the gaze of the world, it is beyond judgement.


 * And the comment about America's games abroad that Harold Pinter's made when he received the nobel prize last year: "Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening it wasn't happening. It didn't matter. It was of no interest."
 * Somewhere, lone men are always talking, and trees always falling. Even if unheard.


 * ..anyway, I'm sure that's what you read, so, nothing hidden. Sunday night, deadlines.. I'm obviously procrastinating in any way possible!)  23:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

==Ok, di Right now, there is a constructive discussion with Raphael in the wikipolicy: censorship. He is learning to edit better, explain better, and perhaps one day he will notice that he has a talk page and he may wonder what all the vandalism warnings are doing there from different people all over the world. :) DanielDemaret 00:08, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Deconstruction....n critical questioning
In the wake of current proposals in DK to discuss the nature, details, nits, bolts and all of Islam and secularism, one cultural psychologist made the interesting point. .....that the logical deconstruction of the two would lead to 'humiliation' of Islam. That by bringing something fundamentally experiential and unquestioned (by consequence of Islam being an unreformed religion, etc. etc. - your point of prohibition of idolatry while effectively idolizing Muhammed applies here too) onto a stage created by secularism, using the logic and tools of secularism, can only lead to secularism coming out 'on top'.

It makes beautiful sense (though more so in the clear phrases of the psychologist than my muddled ones : ), but does mean that all there is to do, is to wait for Islam to go though a reformation process in its own pace and time?

I don't think the world has the time for that...Varga Mila 13:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

"wait for Islam to go though a reformation" ? Many do not think that is possible.

Acutally, as an answer, I wrote an A4-page developing a bizarre theory as I went along treating Islam as a dissipative structure to predict what is going to happen, but I may just have to hide that theory. I have never actually seen straitjacket and I don't care to.DanielDemaret 22:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to second guess your mind again. Without entering the straitjacket full on...though.......no.... It is simplistic and only addresses one aspect, but isn't it doomed to dissipation, like most totalitarian systems, if people are given a more 'informed' (whatever that entails) and less constrained choice? Varga Mila 23:02, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Dissipation is not what happens to a dissipative structure. Dissipation is what comes out at the other end of a dissipative structure. As a comparison. A person eats an apple. The apple is here the outer high level energy that the system needs to be sustained. The dissipation is what comes out at the other end. DanielDemaret 23:17, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Basically, by looking at a dissipative structure, if you know its environment, you can make certain predictions. 1 Isolate it, and it dies. 2 "Over-stimulate" it and the irritation will have interesting consequences according to mathematical chaos theory.

Oh, speaking of chaos theory, did I quote this new quote from Modern Chaos Theory?

If a small cartoon flutters in Jylland, will it create a tornado all over the muslim world?
 * Laughing a bit too much*Varga Mila 08:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

3 Leave the system and let it keep sustaining itself from outside energy, and it will eventually grow until the environment is consumed, unless the environment is infinitely larger. DanielDemaret 23:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I see (that I know quite little). What is it about Islam's structure that makes it different from all other systems ? Varga Mila 08:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

There are many systems that can be considered Dissipative. While I was doing a little thesis on mathematical models of international conflict prediction in 1980, a polish guest professor did the Maths on one of them to a very small class.

System: Soviet Union

Chaotic Pertubation: Polish Solidaritet

Predicted Result: A system-wide Catastrophe in 10 years.

We all understood that he was nutters of course. Get the strait-jackets! But we all agreed that the numbers and maths were solid, so we let him go. Nobody in the international community could perceive even the slightest possibility of a collapse of the Soviet Union ever. For some reason, I vividly recalled that lecture when the Berlin Wall fell in 1990, and the Soviet Union collapsed. DanielDemaret 09:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

There are several properties necessary for a dissipative structure. One is that the system may neither be closed, nor open. It has to be semi-permeable, and very selective, to be able to choose to take in some apples, to let them become a part of it, and to ignore the rest. Yes, humans and animals can as individial biological entities be considered dissipate.

The thing that made me think of the islam this way was another, not necessary feature for its creation, but disctinctive resulting feature of dissipative structures. It has been shown to be able to display violent system-wide reactions to only extremely small pertubations = irritations. This is the feature where I feel Islam stands out. Totalitarian regimes have a similar reaction, if the leader has a tendency to be easily irritated. DanielDemaret 09:41, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, dissipative then ; )
 * It is a fascinating point (violent system-wide reactions to extremely small pertubations/irritations).
 * But how do you suspect that this tendency to be 'easily irritated' has become intrinsic to Islam? Is it a consequence of history, the nature of the 'scriptures' or is it something as simple as a tool of raw political subjugation (in which case it should really apply to most totalitarian leaders concerned with self-preservation) ?


 * I am not too unfamiliar with the use of mathatical models in terms of (the simpler aspects of) animal behaviour.
 * Still, I'm fascinated by their predictive power in terms of the evolution of political systems, given that the models are only as precise, as the definitions of their parameters. In the light of the number of interacting factors, plus that complexity of human behaviour (crowd behaviour, in particular, even being a psychologist doesn't make it feel all that predictable!), would, I should think, make it very difficult create a powerful model ? Varga Mila 18:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Your userpage was briefly delisted by a rogue admin
You have a userbox Template:User UN which links your userpage to United Nations Wikipedians. There is currently a movement to ban userboxes from Wikipedia which are shared and which create Lists of Wikipedians. Certain admins have taken it upon themselves to preemptively sabotage and/or delete such categories and template. Here is the incident report which reported damage to yours, in which hundreds of userpages were delinked from categories without the users' knowledge. They have been stopped, barely, and the damage reverted— for now.

There is a Userbox policy poll, which if passed, will make required by policy the damage done to categories and templates such as User UN/United Nations Wikipedians. If you do not want this to happen, I urge you to vote Oppose. in the poll. Support is currently running at about 66%, and your vote could make the difference. It is said to require 75%-80% to be deemed reflective of consensus.

Thank you,

StrangerInParadise 23:45, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Userboxwars
Funny thing. There are two different active polls about that issue.DanielDemaret 23:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Archives
No point in writing in my archives page, really. I do not seem to get notified of changes there. And I apologize for not seeing your comments there earlier. DanielDemaret 03:55, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Dissipative, cont
How it became intrinsic, I can only guess wildly, so I shall try to restrain myself there. I have seen that it is intrinsic in dissipative structures, more than any other commonly found structure in nature, and that both populations and animals have been successfully modeled as dissipative structures.

I still think our professor was merely lucky, but when I remembered that lecture 10 years later, it left a very strong memory in me. He WAS sure that the soviet was going to collapse, however, I will give him that. I wonder if he published this somewhere? DanielDemaret 18:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
I appreciate the support. I don't know what this guy's problem is, but I won't tolerate it. Hey, it's a Sunday; I've got time.

BTW, do you mind moving your comment to my talk page? I don't want to get in trouble for doing it. You may have already done so. Anyways, thanks again. Haizum 18:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

BachmanBot
Stop? Nah ... This is actually starting to make sense :D MX44 20:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Present, Ma'am
Aww. Missed me? I had trouble logging late Sunday, and then "Work, Work, Work". I would rather be discussing chimp comm or bonobo banter. DanielDemaret 17:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Mea Ultima Culpa
I feel cramped and guilty for intentionally assisting in the fellony of procrastination.

I had to look up St Andrews Tower not to seem ignorant, and still missed the important reference. Please enlighten me.

A mountain of video clips? Was this really your idea when you started this? DanielDemaret 18:22, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

St Andrew's
I am wondering why I think of my old school in Hertfordshire, St Edmunds, when I hear St Andrews? Does St Andrews by any chance have a catholic inclination ? A priest seminar attached to it, or anything like that? DanielDemaret 21:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Disucssion subpage
Nice try regarding the subpage. The article has been at a near-halt for a week. Since I have no more input on the images, I have not commented. As Laban himself noted early on "Its not about the cartoons" http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=127201&region=3. There are interesting articles out there about analysis, especially from muslim and former muslim women, but have totally drowned in the image battle.

I hope the subpage idea works out. Perhaps if the discussion page has the title "all discussions regarding the viewing of the cartoons here" and that sentence linked to an area? If want to believe that it will work, and I go by Wizard's First Rule. Wizard's Rule. DanielDemaret 15:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, your absence has been noisy.
 * I would love to read the aforementioned analyses by muslim and former muslim women.
 * As I suspect others would, too. Perhaps you could mention them on the Talk page (now that there may be some breathing space - although I'm less optimistic than you on this matter, I think it will be only a short rebate ~ then again, my parents never called me 'the smiling Buddha' : )


 * Your suggestion regarding the link and sentence sound good. Please do make the amendments.


 * I'm intrigued to read more about the illustrious First Rule ~ however I'm drowning right now. Varga Mila 15:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I fear I do not have the time to involve myself in the Mohammed Cartoons Article. Edit wars seem to be a full time job. I shall look in now and again to see whether it has calmed down, but I am not holding my breath.

You need not read the books to get the gist of the rules. Even if the books are well written, there was too much cruelty in them to be enjoyable for me, so I stopped in the third book. I went back to dear old Terry Pratchett and Discworld. No torture, no flayings, not too much pain. Even Death (Discworld) is serene in that world.

Just a quick browse thru the list of Wizard's Rule will tell you as much about the rules as the wizard rule books. DanielDemaret 15:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Not much, I am afraid
I can't recall all of them off hand. I don't bookmark everything I read. Some were by these: Irshad Manji, Asra Q. Nomani, Asma Gull Hasan, Amina Wadud, Taslima Nasrin, Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

There was one particularly interesting by a Palestinian lady. She tried to explain how marginalization drove them to hopeless action. I can't find a bookmark for it now.

Oh, and now I remember what my memory of St Andrews was. My mother wanted me to study to become a physician there.

By the way, speaking of muslim ladies analyses, this photo has a source: I wonder what the purpose of the sign was ? http://www.n-tv.de/634520.html DanielDemaret 19:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Show link
Please put it. Thanks.
 * I emphasize with your concern. Hang on for a little while, and it may just be added.
 * Best, Mila

Los Grand Unification
It used to be one terribly long sentence with lots of opposing views ending with the death-sentence. The link you gave illustrated it all and more. I was quite amused when the lawyers started discussing what the damages should/should not be.

Mmmm ... That 500 Riyal bill could prove itself to be useful as an illustration ... some other time :)

MX44 02:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Weekend
Weekend, and more time to indulge in silly things like encyclopedias. Here is the article from the palestinian lady. http://www.gopbloggers.org/mt/archives/003140.html A differently interesting perspective has been emanating from Spengler at Asia Times. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/spengler.html True to his namesake, Oswald Spengler, he invents different theories regarding why the west will fall.

I have not kept up with discussions. Last I read, there was an argument that the policy "no censorship" does not mean that wikipedia should not have any censorship. I have not had time to read up on anything this week, which probably is a good thing, since it means I have been working instead.DanielDemaret 16:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

On analysis, not the most original, but the most consistently reporting blogger relating to the muslim world is probably http://michellemalkin.com/. This space was the one that dug up the el-fagr paper http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/ so sometimes I go back and look there, but he does not dig deep nor have a lot to say. I suppose, I am hoping he will dig up something equally amazing like el-fagr. If it had not been for him, nobody would have noticed. Also, we corresponded by email a while back because of this. Nice chap.DanielDemaret 16:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

If one wants news from the somewhere to the right of the right wing, this girl seems find it http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/ DanielDemaret 16:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Highlighting the difference between a christian priest and an Imam : http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_objectid=16782737%26method=full%26siteid=94762-name_page.html DanielDemaret 18:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Challenge
It was many years ago that I hoped for challenges in my work.

About the Koan :) Right and Kind are very different things. For example, every person is always "right" from his own perspective, but before breakfast most are not kind.DanielDemaret 22:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=CultureAndMedia&loid=8.0.259079867&par=0 This was another interesting article by Niloofar, which sums up much of what I have read from her other writings.

Oh, and I just quoted the other article by Niloofar to shed light on the discussion that had been going on. One would have to rework the article to fit it in, and I think the article itself may have become too rigid for that, at least while the discussions are all re-iterations. The very size of the archives must make it unrealistic to expect that a new-comer would bother to read it all, and so the re-iterations ensue. There are probably many good ways to handle that, but the problem may be too rare so far in wikipedia for anyone to bother trying to do anything about it. DanielDemaret 22:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

This site may be 100% anti-muslim, but at least most articles seem to me to contain new information, not just speculation, and it seems to contain a new article daily. http://www.faithfreedom.org/ Today, for example, Marina Mahathir tells of apartheim in Malasya against muslim women, since only muslims are allowed polygamous marriage by law. DanielDemaret 10:05, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Bonobo Alert
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/05/D8G5H9P00.html Alarming. Even more alarming than the fact that this morning I could find recent developments regarding the mohammed affairs almost anywhere, including in wikipedia, except in the article supposedly dealing with it in wikipedia. DanielDemaret 14:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC) I was thinking about the 70,000 person protests a few days ago, but I put it into the timeline.

Are the chimps on your tapes all bonobos? DanielDemaret 14:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Raphael1
Don't worry, you didn't eavesdrop on my talk page, since it is fully public. If you are very concerned about Raphael1's behaviour and intentions, it's probably best to start a request for comment. If you need help, advice or input, I'm willing to help you out. However, I think it's too early for me personally to endorse the RfC, so don't expect me to be the second person needed for reaching the threshold. I'm willing to give an outsider view though. Aecis Mr.Mojorisin' 17:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC) PS. My nick is Aecis, not Asics ;)

Chimp news
Hello Varga, having earlier perused your user page I thought you might find this Scientific American article interesting... of course you might have already seen it. Ciao! Netscott 08:49, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

... a word from our sponsors
In an attempt to adapt and popularize Islam, a brand new musical in classic Grand American style is being set up:


 * The Taliban on Broadway

MX44 17:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Funny... but extremely lame. I imagine that the majority of muslims feel as misrepresented when someone kills in their name, as I do, listening to that. Proportions aside : )  Varga Mila 18:16, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Though it does make more sense in a relevant context like ... Now? MX44 14:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Verdad Varga Mila 15:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The "Taliban"? No, I think he is just ignorant but would like to be helpful. Unfortunately it takes a lot of research to debunk his nonsense (see end of Taliban Buddha, and what not)
 * The "Taliban"? No, I think he is just ignorant but would like to be helpful. Unfortunately it takes a lot of research to debunk his nonsense (see end of Taliban Buddha, and what not)


 * Or did you mean that other "non-muslim" guy? MX44 16:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you misunderstood? I meant the "non-muslim" Raphael1 MX44 00:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

interpretation
"Despite growing up in various Muslim countries, I am" may be interpreted as if you grew up in various muslim countries. I thought you grew up in a cave, as per your icons. DanielDemaret 20:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps there's little conflict ? They were nice caves, though :-) Varga Mila 20:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Like the many caves that I have seen in Spain, fully furnished with all the comforts of home, e g parabola antennas sticking out? DanielDemaret 20:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Less beautiful
 * When I was a child, I was told a story by a man who had travelled the desert, and one night discovered light from the ground ahead. There was a subterranean town, dug into the sand. Its always mesmerized me, but I forgot the name of the place. They probably sell T-shirts and camel rides today Varga Mila 21:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I am crestfallen. You did not live in a cave then? *gets cheerfull again* If I have seen a couple of subterranean towns, one in germany and one in spain, you will find yours :) DanielDemaret 21:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I must be having 'blond days'. I thought the cave was reference to Plato. In which case I may well be innit. Varga Mila 21:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, you have been living in Plato's cave. I see. If you are out of it now, you must have become gnostically enlightened by now. Congratulations.

I was rather thinking of either the town that I happened to literally stumble upon while taking a walk outside... Elche, I think it was... when I suddenly and totally unexpectedly saw antennas sticking out of the ground... this was in the 70s, so no parabolas at the time. Or the german town whose only claim to fame was that Napoleon decided to take it, but he had to give up when none of his scouts could actually find the d*m place. Both places are such that one does not even see them until one is right on top, or inside it, and in both places people seemed to be very private, and not really interested in visitors or tourists. They were just as private as the people I talked to in the Azores. They answered politely, and then promptly turned away, as if the conversation had never taken place. DanielDemaret 21:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Faith is believing what you know aint so (Mark Twain)
I'm aching to read this book by one of my old favourites ... but I wont have time... for a very long time... so I'll just pass it on
 * Daniel Dennett (2006) Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon (http://www.salon.com/books/int/2006/02/08/dennett/print.html)  Varga Mila 09:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think neither you nor I will have time. Send me a resumé when you are done! As of yesterday, I have my own domain, so for fun, I shall let you guess how to contact me by email. It is not a very hard riddle. I must really be getting on with my pre-language thinking models. DanielDemaret 17:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * my bad. I shall try to get my wiki-email to work again then.DanielDemaret 20:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!
Thank you for reverting Irishpunktom's improper reversion! Netscott 13:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

My impression from different Arabic media - by Naser Khader
For balance, a muslim POV : http://www.khader.dk/flx/in_english/commentary_i_feel_insulted/

Not sure if I should put this link in somewhere. Have you seen this before? DanielDemaret 18:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I haven't read it before, but heard him speak the words. He is a very clear voice (and in matters other than this one, the equivalent of a smiling Buddah : ). Striking a stance for the plurality of Muslim voices, he is, true to form, throughly criticized by the imams ~ and of course the host of people vying for the power of representing the Muslim voice. If Denmark were to hold a election today, I really suspect that he could give the right-wing Pia Kjærsgård a run for her money.
 * By the way, would the article not 'stand' under 'Opinions of Muslims' ? With a sentence or two relating to "Why does religious insult carry more weight than democratic insult?" Varga Mila 19:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Under 'opinions of muslims' it is then. But I shall try to avoid voicing my own myPOV. It is not of my POV that I insert it at all since I have no way of verifying his assertment of muslim media.DanielDemaret 21:00, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I put this in at the bottom of muslim opinion. I doubt that anyone will read that far down. Please add or improve if you feel my quote was off.

The muslim Naser Khader sums up the opinion of the muslim media thus : We cannot as Muslims dictate that non-Muslims comply with the allegedly prohibited depiction of the prophet.

DanielDemaret 21:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I suppose I compensated with bold to counter the fact that it will is too far down to be noticed. DanielDemaret 21:11, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Irishpunktom vs. Netscott
Hello, sorry to disturb you but I noticed that you were mentioned on a notice of 3RR violation made by Irishpunktom against Netscott. Netscott has been blocked but in my lurking on the article I noticed that Irishpunktom was as much a violator as Netscott and so I made a report of 3RR violation against Irishpunktom. I was hoping you might be able to comment on my report.

Thanks!

CA-Bill 208.201.242.19 22:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, I see you commented on Netscott's 3RR violation but if you could comment on Irishpunktom's 3RR violation report that'd be even better. CA-Bill 208.201.242.19 23:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Repenting, Ma'am
Repent ! Is your cartoon hinting at my ignorance !!?? How insulting ! I demand that you take it down and repent. Varga Mila 17:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * All right, all right, I apologize. I'm really, really sorry. I apologize unreservedly. I offer a complete and utter retraction. The imputation was totally without basis in fact and was in no way fair comment and was motivated purely by malice, and I deeply regret any distress that my cartoon or cartoons may have caused you or your family, and I hereby undertake not to repeat any such slander at any time in the future.


 * All cartoons at my own talk page have been transmitted to oblivion in archives or other suitable oblivion. DanielDemaret 18:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You apology seems sincere. But to ensure that it is sincere, I demand that you compensate for the pain and upset that you have caused me. I have a little business; we shall expect your generous contributions shortly Varga Mila 18:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sincere? I don't know about that. But I was rather bonking on that quote from John Cleese doing the trick. As you know, I am a mere man, and I never really figured the answer to two trick questions: Which cartoon or cartoons were you referring to, and how did you manage to construe an offense from it or them? DanielDemaret 19:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, and if you think that I am merely trying to divert the discussion away from the issue of punitive damages, you are absolutely correct.DanielDemaret 19:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You do know that I was Joking, right ? Varga Mila 19:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The compensation part was a reference to the one of the prominent imams at the reconciliation meeting in Denmark last week, who after speaking very emotionally about insult at length, suddenly calmed and very rationally suggested that the Danish government make contributions to the health system and a large number of smaller businessmen in Saudi (I think it was?).
 * And now that I'm at it, sorry sorry sorry, the apology part was a reference to demand for a certain type of apology (felt at heart or pocket). Varga Mila 19:39, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I had not heard about the meeting last week in Denmark. Thank you. Every idea seems to come from somewhere, and it interesting to hear where that one came from.DanielDemaret 21:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. :) This in no way preventing me from checking your email to me to see where to send punitive damages, probably in the shape of a cart of bananas for your bonobos, or from wondering how in the world I was going to get out of it. DanielDemaret 19:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

"Bonking on Jonhn Cleese's jokes"? Now there's a blasphemous sentence : ) Banking ? Varga Mila 19:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I just checked the script of Black-Adder from the episode "Corporal Punishment", for context, and there it is in black and white: "banking". What? ::And I have heard him saying "bonking", thinking that it must have been a typical expression of the time by the likes of George. They use the most silly expressions in that TV-series. No more excuses for me then. I totally retract this usage of mine etc, etc, etc.DanielDemaret 20:04, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmmm... must have been a case of selective hearing Varga Mila 20:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I had not heard about the meeting last week in Denmark. Thank you. Every idea seems to come from somewhere, and it interesting to hear where that one came from.DanielDemaret 21:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

If that T-shirt is funny enough, my daughter may want one. What does the T-shirt say?DanielDemaret 21:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The paradoxes of the self-rightuous
There's another lovely example of the paradoxes of the self-rightuous in the Little Kingdom. A company has produced t'shirts with a cartoon of the Madonna and a reference to anal sex (funny but very rude, and really quite unnecessesary in its lack of purpose. However, the priest, who has taken it upon himself to prevent it from 'coming into general distribution' (his phrasing was along those lines), is seen photographed showing the t'shirt in several of the larger papers today.... I'm lost for words. Varga Mila 17:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

POV Pushing
You said :
 * "User:Irishpunktom seems to be blatantly pushing a POV in the Muhammad cartoons article. He makes significant changes without consulting co-editors, or simply makes changes for which there is no consensus or which are still in discussion. In the light of this, User:Netscott simply reverted changes tantamount to vandalism. Varga Mila 23:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)"

So, I have to ask Several Questions.. Firstly,
 * 1) What POV am I pushing? What is wrong with presenting an alternative POV when one is already listed?
 * 2) What exactly, to you, is a "Significant change"?  - And what "Significant changes" have I made?
 * 3) Define Vandalism, and how was I guilty of such a thing? --Irishpunktom\talk 11:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I realize that there may be some unfairness in such a comment, if one is not prepared to further engage in explanations, debates and arguments to support it. However, in the light of some of the protracted, and repetitive arguments that I have seen you engage in, I must admit... I can't be bothered. Sorry. Varga Mila 11:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You wont, or rather can't answer the questions relating to accusations made against me. I'm not really surprised, but I did want it stated. --Irishpunktom\talk 12:09, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That is not what I wrote. Varga Mila 12:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * What you wrote was not an explanation to your accusations. And I'm not surprised, you won't, can't, answer them, and I just wanted you to state it. --Irishpunktom\talk 12:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I simply neither have the time nor desire to get into such discussions, providing many a link and wordy explanations. My last words on this matter.Varga Mila 12:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course! And I'm sure you actually believe that! --Irishpunktom\talk 12:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The MC article is unusual
I have edited in wikipedia since 2004. I have never before experienced anything but civilized conversation among editors. I knew that they existed. In theory.

The MC article was the first I had seen where editors have been accusing each other for anything.

I just wanted you to know. DanielDemaret 18:03, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you. This the first time I have been accused of being a racist. A bit distressing. But 'my bad', as you would say, I guess I should have left out the comment about logic. Anyway, I think that marks the end of my contributions. No great loss.  Varga Mila 18:07, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I keep thinking that I should leave that article for a month. At one time, I even considered officially becoming a follower of Nuggan.DanielDemaret 21:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC) Dwats. I just remembered Nuggan is dead.DanielDemaret 21:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Then Nuggan must truly be God Varga Mila 21:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Discworld gods die when people stop believing in them. DanielDemaret 22:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Do you want me to send you "The first idea" or is your reading list too long? DanielDemaret 22:10, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I almost ought to read Discworld... given your devouted references to it. But....... I have to prepare talk, and write 18,000 words within the next month (typically, I haven't started either ~ and my words don't flow quite as easily as yours seem to do). All on intentionality, joint attention, communication and the possible lack of human species specificity of it all. Does Bapak Greenspan talk of either ? :-)
 * I thank you kindly for the offer, but, you see, I am a terribly respectless reader - highlighting, jotting down notes and (oh orrror) bending page corners. Although I do love the lending and borrowing of books (though those to and from whom I lend and borrow may do less so ! : ) (I try, but am always somewhat 'undelivered' when I can't mistreat my books). Varga Mila 22:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That is a lot of words to write. Go to it :)

On Greenspan & Shanker.

They have a model of stages of development.

Up to a certain stage, the model explicitly applies to chimps and humans alike.

Intentionality' is stage 3

For Intentionality to happen caregivers need to read and respond to the baby's signals and challenge the baby to read and respond to theirs, leading to back and forwards signaling, like smiles, and this leads to other thinking, causal thinking

....speaking of causal, I don't suppose you have read Judea Pearl's causality? ...

Joint attention. Only in the way a caretaker - infant relations. I would have liked examples.

Communication Absolutely. The primary interest is in thinking, but one thesis is that you won't develop a lot of good thinking without communication. They give examples, but I would have liked more detail there.

non-humans They compares chimp infants with human infants, but no other animals are touched upon.

Seems to me you know what to write about already. If you think I have the gift of the gab, all that I write is already under free licence to copy since it is written here :) So ask, and I shall write. DanielDemaret 23:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

And since they are two authors, what is the plural for Bapak in Indonesian? DanielDemaret 23:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC) One source here suggests : bapak-bapak. Just like swahili, is it? DanielDemaret 23:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!
Just wanted to drop you a note and say thanks for your supportive comments on the Irishpunktom 3RR report filed by CA-Bill (as well as the ones you left on Irishpunktom's report against me). Fortunately, fairness saw the light of day for that whole story. ;-)

Cheers! Netscott 12:39, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

MC Aniconistic section proposal
Here is a proposal on the MC article talk page... if you could comment that'd be great. ;-) Thanks again!

Netscott 12:39, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well unless you might change your mind about commenting on the proposal on its talk page ... do you mind if I quote there what you left on my talk page? Netscott 14:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I added your comment on my talk page to the MC talk... It's too bad that you'll not be editing on it for some time... IMHO your edits have been very well balanced and highly NPOV. Hopefully you'll be back on it in no time (especially once it opens back up)! ;-) Netscott 22:49, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Association
Dear Varga: Hi. I wanted to ask you about a possible Latin American wikipedians association here on the English wikipedia. The purpose would be to trade assignments with members of other Latin American countries, so that they would write about a topic pertaining to our country while we write about a topic pertaining to theirs. Like a trade. We would benefit a lot by learning about our history as a whole and having other Latinos learn about our own countries at the same time.

That way also, we would promote unity between our paises hermanos. We could become an example to Latin Americans and Hispanics around the world. Unfortunately, some Latin Americans and people from outside Americas Spanish speaking countries do believe we are not brothers, and we can begin with our example to prove them wrong.

What do you think, would you be interested in joining such an association?

Thanks and God bless you!

Your hermano in raza, Antonio Brazil 2006! Martin

I want to thank you for your interest in the association. With only a few more votes of approval, it shall be opened.
 * Dear Varga:

Your invitation to join the future association is still standing. Being that you love Brazil, I imagine you have gained a lot of knowledge about the society, geography and topography of that country and you probably can give us a lot of suggestions as far as topics so we can research those topics and write about them, and viceversa.

It would be like, for example, on Wednesday you ask me to research about Goliana, Brazil and I ask you to look up and write about Jose Ruiz. That way we would exchange social and racial knowledge, and exemplify Latino unity.

Well, Varga Mila, thanks so much and God bless you! Your friend, Antonio Jofre Martin

Assoc. link
Varga Mila: We would be honored to have you check the Association of Hispanic and Latin American writers and become one of our members.

Thanks and God bless you!

Your hermano in raza, Antonio La Causa Martin

Monkey Business
You probably already know about intelligent monkeys using tools, intelligent monkeys using language ... Monkeys that in some way or other show behaviour we often believe is a human exclusive. But have you ever heard of monkeys starting up their own mafia like extortion business?

Some twenty years ago, in Rajasthan, there was a small hotel where a gang of yellow monkeys had found a unique way of supporting themselves. How much they might have ever wanted, they could not steal food from the kitchen, because that was well guarded, and nicking food from the market was also difficult, even dangerous. What they could do was ... Trade!

After people on a nearby roof were finished with their meals and had left, it took a little while before the lady got around to clean up and bring the dishes back to the kitchen. One of the monkeys would then jump down, take an empty plate, and return to the roof where the monkeys resided. When the lady got around, the monkey would make a noise and lift up the plate as if to say, "Look what I have here ... Would you like to have it back?" The lady would shout something unprintable in Hindustani, to which the monkey just replied with even more noise and shaking of the plate. The negotiation always ended with the lady going to the kitchen, coming back with a chapati which she threw to the monkey who then promptly returned the plate. This pattern was repeated on a daily basis, apparently well rehearsed.

It could also happen that a monkey took a T-shirt hanging out to dry, then went to knock on the door of a hotel room, trying to trade it for fruit or other edibles. One hand shaking the T-shirt behind its back, the other reaching forwards with a demanding or begging gesture. Although the monkeys had not yet figured out how to pair the stolen belongings with the right room number, people would still do the trade and later give the item back to the owner.

I don't know how the monkeys discovered this trick. Perhaps they started out nicking half-empty plates with food left to eat? What I do find very most interresting is that they extended the idea to cover other unrelated valuable items, demanding food to give it back. That they realize that although an item is not directly valuable to them, it can be traded for something which is.

Now if they instead could have only learned to bring the dishes directly back to the kitchen (in exchange for food?), then perhaps ...

MX44 06:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Good to see you back on JPMCC
Hello Varga, just thought I'd drop you a note and say that it's a pleasure to see you once again involved in editing on the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy article. Your editing and views on that have been missed. :-) Netscott 10:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Varga For a different perspective on Territory and Dominance, see Psychoanalytic Theory and read section on "A Fundamental Revision" Islandsage 19:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

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