User talk:Vera, Chuck & Dave/Archive 3

The Beatles and forking articles
I have a problem that I would like to impart to all you good 'Beatles project' editors, and it is this:
 * Should anything directly Beatles-related be in the main Beatles' article, and only 'personal' stuff put into the Lennon, McCartney, Harrison, and Starr articles? I have the disturbing feeling that I'm repeating stuff in both Lennon and McCartney articles that should only be in the main article.
 * But... if only personal stuff is included in the individual Beatles' articles, would it make them too confusing/random, to read?

Please answer (on a stamped and self-addressed postcard please) on our talk page. (This might be more interesting than talking about MBEs... :) andreasegde, Mr Hornby, and Sir Sean de Garde 15:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Mimi Smith
I reviewed it as a B article, then I thought I'd 'jump in the deep end'. (I have nominated it for GA). To Hell with the doubters - let rip, unfurl the pennants, and 'strike while the iron's hot', as the boys and girls from the 'East Leeds Labour Club Pensioners International Line-dancing Formation Team' say (when they put their dentures in). Sir Sean de Garde and the other mob 02:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You misspelled 'strive the Ivan while it is hat'. You're welcome. Raymond Arritt 02:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Archive
Put ya some archive pages in, which Crestville did for me last year. Passing on the favour. Sir Sean...


 * Click on edit talk page, block-copy the bits you want to archive (like copying anything into an article) close the edit talk page, open the archive box (1?) and then put them in. Save archive page.


 * You then have to go back and wipe the stuff you archived from the talk page, or do it earlier - whatever you like. I will put the first comment in to show you what I mean. andreasegde 17:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I've just done it. You have June-July-August in Archive 1, and Sept until Dec 2006 in Archive 2. Sir Sean of O'Garde.


 * It's jolly gratifying to see the cannon-fodder doing a spot of solid graft for a change, wot? It keeps the buggers out of the alehouse with their gin-sodden strumpets for awhile. Sir Sean de Garde 18:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Multiple personalities
It said, in the last Beatles' newsletter, that "Sir Sean de Garde appears to have developed multiple personalities." This is very true (and made me laugh an awful lot) but it is necessary when one is faced with talking to one on one's pages that one has contributed to. (Work that one out... :) The changing of one's name brings tremendous amusement to one - as other editors are wont to do the same. I refer you to members, Vera, Chuck, and Dave, LessHeard vanU, and Crestville, who have given one a terrific amount of pleasure in the general 'laughing gear' area, because of their inovative choices of Nom de plumes. One can only hope that this practice does not offend one's own sense of normality. One can only live in hope. :)) Who am I? 20:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar

 * Did you get hurt there? How did you manage that recuing cats out of trees which is, for all I know having viewed them singularly in Postman Pat Cartoons, the only thing firemen ever do.--Crestville 14:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a disgrace what these firemen have to go through, if I was you I'd strike. Or read "the boy who cried wolf". (Only kidding, I support your cause, mainly because I don't pay taxes)--Crestville 15:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Football
Oh woe is me... The sad truth about United Bugger it 01:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Tank
Oh, that made me laugh me socks off.... (I'm still laughing, and finding it hard to type... I should have seen that one coming, lol... :)) The Laughing Cavalier 03:25, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It's LessHeardvanU. I think he's having a turn...

Paul McCartney
I have nominated it for FA. andreasegde 22:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Mimi Smith
Mimi Smith just got a GA. Am I chuffed or what, la? andreasegde 16:16, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

A good laugh
If you want a good belly laugh, have a look a Crestville's discussion page. Shylock Bones and Dr Motson 16:16, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I love the shed! I used to practice drums on rubber pads in one exactly like that... "Memories, in the corners of my shed..." (Barbara Strauss-&) andreasegde 19:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The Beatles Trivia
They're at it again - trying to delete it. See the discussion page. The Beatles Trivia "delete" page. andreasegde 19:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice one, la. (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge...) andreasegde 20:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar
Cheers for the barnstar, I'll treasure it always - but how did you know it was me? Iadmit I'm the only one of the "pretenders" (that's the name I've given to we four of the fake-names) who has such an anal interest in the late 19th century. How did you hurt your collar bone? Cat got away and you fell out of the tree? You can tell me, I gaurentee won't laugh (disclaimer: not a guarentee). Wouldn't now be the perfect time to go on strike? God bless you and all who sail in you. Judd Hirsch out of Taxi (I know Danny DiVito!)

...what?--Crestville 11:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

How come we all seem to have time to waste on these pages at 14.35 in the afternoon? (Austrian time) Either we're all unemployed, or we're looking forward to the night shift - not. (Sorry to hear about the RSJ trying to split your carcass in two, BTW...) Tony Blair's toilet brush 13:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Freddie Lennon
Little Freddie Lennon has been put for a GAR. Would someone look at it for stupid mistakes, and give it a wipe with a damp cloth? andreasegde 09:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you know London?
"he looks OK speshly "... Have you been drinking Vera? speshly, ociffer? Yer on them drugs again, you sod. BTW, I watched the youtube video you sent, and I spotted the streets they were driving through. Parliament Square, Whitehall, Trafalgar Square (No, I'm not looking at a map) Pall Mall? Haymarket? Yes, Haymarket - with the theatre on the right - Piccadilly (that was bleedin' easy) Regent Street (wiv all them fairy lights) Conduit street (I cheated, 'cos I heard them say it, but I was prepared to count the turnings, honest) I just heard some cock-er-nee say "Is it on the left [Conduit street] or the right?" Bleedin' Nora... I can see a Xmas tree´- I have no idea - Where am I? (I have looked at a map, and I think it may be Bruton Place.) Vera's night out :)

P.S. Do you wear ear plugs because of that bleedin' row you make? andreasegde 17:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Wot me, famous? I once played in the Cafe Royale on Regent Street for a 'Doctors and nurses' Ball. Even the ugly birds looked absolutely gorgeous with their 'off the shoulder' Ball-gowns... Uhh-err-missus andreasegde 18:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Have a look-see at this: Championship Table

Beetles biker gang
Oh, an interesting one. Macca says that they got it from the film, but I have been reliably informed that the film wasn't released in the UK until the 60s. The chase is on, my dear Watson... andreasegde 13:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This IMDb says it was released in the UK in 1955. andreasegde 13:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That's what I heard. Where did you get that info? It would be useful to add it to 'External links' to fob the buggers off. andreasegde 13:53, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

User:LuciferMorgan has bailed out of Wikipedia
I have left a message on his talkpage thanking him for his help on Beatles related stuff. I am hoping a few messages of thanks might make him reconsider his decision. Yup, this is a hint! LessHeard vanU 22:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yup, I saw. A few words of good cheer can sometimes mend bruises. I hope so. LessHeard vanU 14:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I have moved my vote of thanks out of the original section, as the arguments that lead to LM leaving started cropping up there. I have voiced my intense displeasure at comments directed at my attempting to keep the section clear of such prattle, too. LessHeard vanU 18:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It might be good to move your nice comments to "our section" (Thanks from The Beatles WikiProject) Sod the buggers that pissed him off... Sir Sean 18:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Trivia
The Beatles trivia is now "The Beatles' miscellanea". Let the trivia zealots boil their heads in oil... andreasegde 21:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC

My new fish...
Greatly appreciated.

I would have preferred not to have shouted at folks, but I cannot see why they have to use other editors contributions to continue their arguments. Sadly, it was one of LM's friends that felt the rough edge of my tongue... LessHeard vanU 21:18, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Genuinely chuffed about both Barnstars. Thank you. I aught to say that I later went to said Editors talkpage and apologised for the language... but I assure you I grovelled like a man ! LessHeard vanU (Mrs) 20:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I notice that you picked up the ball
where I had fumbled it in trying to make more links in the Joe Meek article. I am partucularly glad that you made the Shirley Bassey connection. I was working on it when my wife announced that it "IS time to go!" - - so I went. Now i find it fixed and many more added. I'm planning on a few more additions yet, to that article. Carptrash 15:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I know...
Proper nouns should be capitalised, the beatles is the bands name and therefore.... However, three or four style style guides disagree and no authority has been found to back up our position. My schooling is over 30years ago, so I guess things have moved on. I don't want to waste any more time on it, either. Let the copyeditors have their day. LessHeard vanU 11:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

My fish
I shall care for it always (though I can't remeber the last time I contributed to a Beatles article, these days I only have to the time to leave messages on the talk pages asking for £5. Do I win £5?)--Crestville 15:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The beat-less 'article'
So, it's now the Beatles, is it? Every mention of The Band should be changed (in the middle of a sentence) to the Band. "At the gig, Bob Dylan and the Band.... which means his 'backing band', and not The Band. Explanation:


 * "I saw the Band tonight."
 * "Which band?"
 * "The Band!"


 * "I watched the beetles tonight."
 * In your kitchen again?"
 * No, The Beatles!

It's a question of emphasis... andreasegde 17:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Spot on with your trademark research. Style changes every year, but nobody can argue with their lawyers. andreasegde 20:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Stuart Sutcliffe's Bass
Hi Vera Chuck & Dave, just got your message. No, I'm not offended by your comment, I will indeed accept it as a compliment! Now the strange thing is, is that I inserted that link, and it states that it is a President and it looks like one to me. I now see that someone is disputing this, and saying it is a 500/5.

I was always under the impression that a 500/5 had two pickups, but having said that, I'm not that familiar with Bass Guitars, or Archtop Guitars for that matter, I only own one archtop. If you leave it with me, I'll message another editor who I think will be able to help OK? Be lucky, Lion King 17:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I've messaged him and he's taking a short Wikibreak, but another Guitarist/s may be watching his page so we may get an answer quite quickly. Sorry to see you hurt yourself, and hope you are feeling a bit better now. You guys do a Great Job - Thanks!! Be lucky Lion King 18:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It wasn't a President. I have a reference, but it's not handy right now. Will get back (heh...) later with details. Raymond Arritt 18:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sure I read that it was a 'President'. andreasegde 21:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops, confusion on my part between U.S. (Hofner imported by Selmer) and European model names. In Europe the early 500/5 models were also known as President, according Hofner's web site. So, did Stu play a President, or a 500/5?  The answer is "yes". Raymond Arritt 23:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * LOL! Thank you very much for the fish! I'm glad it's been solved - So it is a Hofner 500/5-President you live and learn eh? Well done Raymond Arritt! If you ever need to know anything about Real Guitars just give me a bell, it may take a bit of time as I'm very busy at the moment, but I always check messages. Cheers Scouse, take care Mate! Best wishes Lion King 02:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)PS Glad to hear that you are now well, try and stay that way OK? Be Lucky, Lion King
 * "Real guitars", eh? As us bass players say, "you can tell the stage is properly leveled by checking if the lead guitarist drools out both sides of his mouth." So there. Raymond Arritt 02:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * LOL! Fair play to you Raymond! Be Lucky, night Lion King 02:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Trademark
(From my talk page) Put up or shut up?

This document is irrefutable proof (even though the writer uses "the Beatles" title): An auction for the document used to register the name "The Beatles" back in 1964 Game, Set, and Match. andreasegde 21:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, McTavidge, but it was trademarked in 1964. What "regular writers will do and need to do" is no defence, and is a POV. "doesn't necessarily compel", is also not a case for changing it. "I fought the Law and the Law won", as The Clash sang. I like coca-Cola, BTW. :) andreasegde 21:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Put your link in (bigger picture). We have won this one. They can't disagree with a written fact. andreasegde 22:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I thank you, and Steelbeard1, for your sterling ('effin brill) work. Style? Pah! "Just gimme some truth", as Johnny sang... andreasegde 18:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

GA
Mimi Smith, Julia Lennon, Freddie Lennon, and Neil Aspinall are now all GA. Now, let's see... Brian Epstein, or Mal Evans? Here go, here we go, here we go... 17:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia, Consensus, The Beatles and Project Policy
I was going to step away from this, since I was only going by the rules and I didn't want to get into a big dispute (especially with editors who I respect and have enjoyed working with), but recent events have brought me back.

The debate about naming the convention regarding the capitalisation or not of the letter "t" of the in t/The Beatles has been going on for a while. I have endured the snide remarks of a Twit, and have engaged in civil debate with some others who continued to question Project policy regarding the issue. I pointed out the need to establish a reasonable argument for their viewpoint over and above that of some professional knowledge so there could be a debate. When they did provide reasonable grounds for reopening the debate I used the offices of the Beatles Newsletter Issue 9:Issue of the Month to request comment, debate on the matter. There was no response. In the next Newsletter Issue 10:Issue of last Month I commented that there had been no response, and that the Project policy would be altered to use of the lowercase. Again, nobody other than the proponents responded. After a brief while I did as I said I would, and amended the Policy.

Belated reaction
The new Policy is not to the liking of some of the editors involved the the Beatles Project (as the previous one was not to others.) After the policy was implemented reasons and arguments for retaining the previous convention were given. Authorities were cited and some discussion was created. Very recently more than one editor has edited Beatles related articles specifically to reflect the previous policy.

My Comments
My preference is to capitalise the letter t of the in the Beatles.

Wikipedia has very few rules; two of the most important relate to consensus and verifiability.

WikiProject The Beatles has a specific area for the implementation (following debate and consensus) of Policy. The associate talkpage records the debate and the arguments used in reaching Policy decisions. The Project also maintains the principle of abiding by the rules that have been agreed, and the fundemental Wikipedia ethos of consensus.

My Observations
No recent discussion occurred when the matter of the use of lowercase or uppercase was notified in two Newsletters, other than between myself and the proponents of lowercase at the Policy talkpage. Since Policy implementation discussion has only occurred on the talkpages of concerned editors, or on the talkpages of some of the articles, and not at the Policy talkpage.

More than one editor has unilaterally decided to ignore the new Policy, going so far as to amend articles to reflect the previous convention.

My Conclusion(s)
The Beatles Project is being disrupted by editors who I personally know to be conscientious and dedicated contributors of long and good standing. In that there is now occurring what might be considered vandalism (the knowing altering of articles in a manner that is against Wikipedian and Project rules and policy), likely as a result of their strongly held views, I believe that this matter needs urgent addressing. I am copying this to the Policy talkpage, and to all the editors involved in formulating the new policy and the recent opponents. I suggest that this debate is taken there, and that this matter is decided in a civil manner in accordance with the principles of Wikipedia.

I am deeply saddened that it has come to this. I am depressed that editors (people) whose integrity and civility (not to say sheer fun) I had been proud to be associated with have acted in (what I see as) bad faith and flagrant disregard for the rules and guidelines of both Wikipedia and The Beatles Project. LessHeard vanU 23:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Tony
Get your bum back here. We don't back down, do we? (Remember?) andreasegde 06:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * To Vera: "Don't turn on your own". I understand that very well. It was branded on my forehead as a kid. :) Keep your chin up, la. The very dishonourable Sir Sean de Guardian of 'The'... 14:53, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice badge on your main talk page. Uhh-err missus - I do like a man in a uniform, said the actress to Alfa Four Two One... Errmmm... I have forgotten who I am. You have to guess.

Strange comment
If by my own, you are referring to Wikipedians who abide by the ethos of the place, then I have done no such thing. I have not turned, changed or anything. I stick to my principles. I defended Policy when it said the capital T is used, and I defend Policy when it says that lowercase t is used. Should Policy change, I will defend that. I will also only consider Policy amended if done in accordance with the prevailing rules.

Wikipedia needs people who push at the boundaries, those who will stand on a principle and not let the petty rules deflect them. People who are passionate about the things they care about. People like you. It does not need people who will ride roughshod over something or someone simply because they disagree with it or them. LessHeard vanU 13:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You say that we "ride roughshod over something"? We have already been called (supposed) vandals, and have seen that "Maybe an RFC needs to be filed against such editors". I am totally shocked at such a knee-jerk reaction. BTW, Vera and I are pushing the boundaries, because Paul, Freddie, Mimi, Julia and Neil have all gone from B to GA status, and "that band from Liverpool" are still GA. We are being chastised because of ONE SINGLE LETTER of the alphabet being changed from lower case to upper case. If you don't find that ridiculous, then I do. I think "that band from Liverpool's" project is in serious danger of collapsing in on itself amid petty bickering. andreasegde 14:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * And now an appeal for calm by the Reverend Crestville on behalf of the good people of wikipedia: CALM DOWN! --Crestville 14:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Nah, they haven't had a good shouting match for ages, let them get greased up and get at it in the ring... Maybe it will separate the wheat from the chaffed ankles Mr Sumo (MBE for wrestling) 14:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I didn't. And No, I didn't call you (or Andre) a vandal. Read the fucking thing; I said "...might be be considered vandalism... (my italics)" and a little later I said about you being someone who pushes at boundaries, and being passionate about things. I then said Wikipedia not being a place where people should ride roughshod just because they don't agree. I also don't like being called a turncoat, since I still believe the letter should be capitalised, but I don't go shouting about it - I'm getting over to the policy page and try to get things fixed in the proper way.
 * Do yourself and me a favour. Go to the policy page, and see the fight I've been putting up (and the shit I got from some idiots). You might get a hint of how things were and are, and not how you have seen them in the last few days.
 * I do not expect or want (or even think I deserve) an apology. You sure as shit ain't going to get one from me. LessHeard vanU 22:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * This is becoming a bit unsettling. May I suggest all concerned grab a pint, put on headphones and listen to the whole White Album, then go on with life? Raymond Arritt 22:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The White Album?! Revolution #1? Yer Blues? Revolution #9? What are you trying to do? Kill us?! Let's listen to Sgt Peppers & Help!--Crestville 16:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a storm in a cracked teacup. We still love LessHeard, because he is one of us. (Apolgies to the incredibly brave fireman for using his page to rant on a bit, BTW). Aye, it'll all come out in the wash, as Vera Duckworth once said... andreasegde 22:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Please have a look at thE BeagleS 'Status Board' and tell us who is next for a GA. They should ALL be GA (minimum). I thank you, and please tip the waiter.... andreasegde 22:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

GCSE English Language course books
Are your kids old enough to be studying GCSE English Language? Or any of your colleagues kids? Whilst style manuals may vary with fashion, the standards for educational courses are perhaps more representative of the age. It would be interesting to see how they think proper nouns should be dealt with. LessHeard vanU 23:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I found a great example. There was a band in the 80s called The The. Now, what do we do we that, I ask? andreasegde 23:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Fucking apology fucking NOT fucking accepted - no fucking apology fucking needed!!! Can you get the name of the course book? LessHeard vanU 00:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I was shocked by this until I read the repsonses. Fu*k me, you lot have to stop giving me palpitations! tHe BeAgLeS 23:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Have your enquiries turned up anything? LessHeard vanU 22:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool. LessHeard vanU 00:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Fucking heck
I was reading over the whole "The" argument and you actually nearly left didn't you! Good lord, all over a case of sticky caps lock and misread vandal talk! Silly boy, no more rash decisions (unless it's, like, a decison to do with a rash or something. You should make a decsion there because they can be nasty)--Crestville 16:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Chin up you puff!--Crestville 22:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Check
Check this: list of the the the ThE bEaTLeS 17:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me, but we'll have to get a bit more than that. I'll look through my copy of "The Elements of Style". I read the conversation between us has been described as "could be trying to influence the decision", BTW. Never heard such rot... ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 18:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So it's now Straw Poll, or a Survey. Wonders will never cease.ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 18:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * By George! (medal) methinks you have something there!


 * (Without upsetting any other editors who may think Vera and I are cooking up something dubious here, may I suggest that we are co-operating in an open way to find an answer to this The problem.)


 * To Vera: We should collect all these things together, and present them in the best way possible on the policy page. The 'pool may yet win the title... ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 18:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree on both counts M'lud. Vera, Chuck &amp; Dave 18:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Mal Evans
I'm working on Mal at the moment, but it's 'effin hard, because he was always in the background. Read the article if you want, and see if there is anything that is crap. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 19:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

"General Rules of Capitalisation, Chambers Concise Dictionary"... Ahhh... You are a 'brick', Dear Sir. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 17:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Sweeties
Ah, I'm made up about that. It was something my History teacher mentioned to me just in passing years ago and then about one year ago I loked into it but never got around to writing it until Sunday. I think it's really interesting and was surprised no one really knew about it. It is a bit Milliganesque, though he would probably have gotten bored and walked off half was through.--Crestville 15:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Hierarchy
Read this: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject The Beatles/Policy ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 15:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)