User talk:Verbcatcher/Archive 2015

Llanfyllin
Hi Verbcatcher.

I don't agree with all of one of your edits (Article after the edit). One person's "unnecessary and over-technical detail" may be of real interest to someone else (like me) and add some colour to an article. I would like to put some of the detail back in, but I might create a new article for the detail regarding Tomen yr Allt. What do you think?

Emerald (talk) 10:13, 23 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I removed (Tomen yr Allt, the caput of the commote of Mechain Uwch Coed in the cantref of Mechain) because I had to look up most of these terms to make sense of the phrase, and caput does not mention Wales. Presumably the meaning is equivalent to The central settlement in an Anglo-Saxon multiple estate. The reference I deleted probably justifies a change to caput to include Wales. We could have the central settlement of the commote of Mechain Uwch Coed in the cantref of Mechain, and maybe explain commote and cantref, but I still think this is too much detail.


 * I removed (or Cynfyn; Madog's fuller name would be Madog ap Maredudd ap Bleddyn ap Cynfyn) and Bell Lloyd inherited the house in 1758, but the work he had carried out resulted in huge debts, he died in the King's Bench debtors' prison in London in 1793 because I think these give too much detail in the context of an article on the town.


 * On reflection I would restore the name Tomen yr Allt, particularly if a new article is forthcoming. I will change the text to It is likely that a house was built on the site after the destruction in 1256 of Tomen yr Allt, a motte and bailey castle which stood on the hill above. I don't think we need wooden.


 * I encourage you to write a new article on Tomen yr Allt or on Bodfach Hall. Thanks for your work on this article. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:02, 23 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Of course this is just my opinion. We could continue this discussion at Talk:Llanfyllin. Is Mechain Uwch Coed an old name for Llanfyllin? If we can find a good reference this should go in the history section. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:15, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

The cantref of Mechain became the hundred of Llanfyllin. Infact 'cantref' means hundred in the sense of a hundred settlements. So, no, Mechain Uwch Coed wasn't the old name for Llanfyllin it was the name of an area which would have included several parishes, Llanfyllin being one of them. Emerald (talk) 17:27, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

RE: Arthur Giardelli
Hi. "Disease-related deaths, would not be significant for death aged 98". Of course at age 98 that is no surprise. However, the Deaths from disease category is often used as a catchall -- especially so the place of death can be categorised -- where there is no evidence of a non-disease-related or "unnatural death" (i.e. road accident, airplane crash, homicide, suicide, terrorism, et al), because everyone dies of something, but when no specific cause of death is provided publicly.

It's a case by case thing -- if no cause of death is given but the decedent is, say, 40 years old, obviously no way. But at 98, sure, especially as there is, understandably, no category for Deaths from old age. It can always be removed or updated later if further info becomes public.

Yours, Quis separabit?  00:29, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I removed the Category:Disease-related deaths in Wales because the cause of death is not given in the two cited obituaries. Also, this is not a defining characteristic of Giardelli, which is a guideline for categorisation. WP:NON-DEFINING says "if the characteristic would not be appropriate to mention in the lead portion of an article, it is probably not defining".Verbcatcher (talk) 01:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * We will have to agree to disagree. I did not revert your edit. Quis separabit?  01:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * What are you disagreeing with? I am saying:
 * Cause of death is not a defining characteristic for this article
 * Defining characteristics is a key Wikipedia guideline for avoiding over-categorisation
 * Are you disagreeing with one of these statements, or are you saying that this Wikipedia guideline is foolish? Do you favour having a cause of death category in all biographical articles? Verbcatcher (talk) 02:04, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree that cause of death is often not a defining characteristic in biographies. But that doesn't mean we ignore it. As far as the categories go, the deaths in ... are usefui for categorising the place and year of death, as simple biographical info, when such info is available. If a category exists there is no reason not to use it if one is willing to make the extra effort. I am not going to discuss it anymore. Quis separabit?  02:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC) BTW: listen no hard feelings. You and I just have different mindsets. There are categories which exist and are used but which I suspect (let me know if I am wrong here) you would have little or no use for, such as Category:Year of birth missing, Category:Place of birth missing, Category:Year of birth unknown, Category:Place of birth unknown, Category:Year of birth uncertain, Category:Date of birth missing, Category:Date of birth unknown, etc. If you want to get rid of them as flawed methodology via CFD, go for it. Less work for me, anyway. Yours,  Quis separabit?  02:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The missing categories are useful for Wikipedia editors but not for the general user. They should probably be subcategories of Category:Wikipedia cleanup, and be hidden categories. We should try to avoid overcategorization. Verbcatcher (talk) 02:36, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Twm o'r Nant
I really like what you have added. Do you know of any translations? My grandfather had a tatty old copy of the "Gwaith.." but I never read it (and I don't know what happened to it anyway) and now I would definitely need a translation, my limited kitchen-Welsh isn't up to poetic prose! Notice you live near Cambridge - me too, practically neighbours! Emerald (talk) 21:59, 16 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Emerald. I have not found any translations, but I have just found a English language play by Dedwydd Jones that I have now mentioned in the article. This probably includes translated quotations from Twm. I guessed that you had a Cambridge connection from your edit history (only low-grade stalking!). Perhaps we could meet at a Wikipedia meetup. I attended one last year. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Emerald, George Borrow has a translation from Riches and Poverty in Wild Wales chapter 60, available here. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:25, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks Verbcatcher, I do have my grandfather's old copy of 'Wild Wales' and just read the translation. I like Borrow's name for Twm - Tom o' the Dingle - quaint! Emerald (talk) 09:01, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Elizabeth Báthory
Hello, It's somewhat difficult to define the book of the French writer/poetess Valentine Penrose. It is both a historical essay and a "smuggled novel" ("L'infidèle biographe de la Bathory, Valentine Boué-Penrose, avait su se départir de la modération française pour offrir au lecteur dans son roman de contrebande quelques belles pages convulsives.", to quote the French essayist Michel Meurger, who has written furthermore a short study about the iron maiden myth). That is why the French Wiki rightly classifies this book in the bibliographic section "Literature". Regards. Guise (talk) 20:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I was guided by the novel article which says "A novel is a long narrative, normally in prose, which describes fictional characters and events, usually in the form of a sequential story." Báthory was not a fictional character. However, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. My dictionary (Collins English Dictionary, 2nd ed.) has an extended work in prose, either fictitious or partly so, dealing with character, action, thought, etc. esp. in the form of a story. I don't know how much of Valentine Penrose's book is fictitious but it is probably more significant whether she believed it to be fictional. Penrose was a surrealist poet so I would expect her writing to be imaginative and symbolic. I'm not sure where this book should be placed in the continuum between scholarly history and speculative historical fiction. In view of this uncertainty I felt "novel" could be misleading, and preferred the neutral "book". Does Littérature in French imply fiction? It does not necessarily do so in English.


 * It's difficult to know where to place this book in the article. As far as such distinctions are valid, this book is probably high culture rather than popular culture, so it doesn't fit in the Folklore and popular culture section or in the Elizabeth Báthory in popular culture article. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 16 July
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Welsh-speaking people
Unfortunately, as I am sure you will appreciate, it is particularly difficult to find a web-page that states "This person speaks Welsh" for every Welsh-speaking person on Wikipedia. Indeed, in most cases, it is impossible. Whilst you now appear to acknowledge that Rhodri Jones is a Welsh speaker, (a fact that I had attempted to note by the addition of that particular page to the Welsh-speaking people category), it is disappointing that you seemed to assume that he was not a Welsh speaker and hastily removed this page from the Welsh-speaking people category, rather than attempting to find a reference for this prior to deletion of this addition to the Welsh-speaking people category. It is even more disappointing that you felt the need to delete all of my other contributions to the Welsh-speaking people category. Whilst I acknowledge that to be able to reference this would be useful, as mentioned above, this is not always possible. Even so, the fact remains that these people are able to speak Welsh! Please note that numerous other pages exist that state that a person can speak a particular language without providing a direct reference in support, for example Brian Wilson (Labour politician). Without being able to refer to a web-page, can you please suggest how this matter may be resolved? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haul~cywiki (talk • contribs) 22:40, 20 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Haul~cywiki, I did not "assume that he was not a Welsh speaker", I merely removed unsourced material about living people. I am not questioning whether these people speak Welsh, they probably do.


 * Providing reliable references is central to Wikepedia. See Help:Introduction to referencing/1, which says
 * "One of the key policies of Wikipedia is that all article content has to be verifiable. This means that a reliable source must be able to support the material."


 * – and –
 * "If you are adding such new content, it is your responsibility to add source information along with it. Material provided without a source may be removed from an article. Sometimes such material will be tagged first with the citation needed template to give editors time to find and add sources."


 * Basically, you shouldn't add facts to a Wikipedia article just because you know them to be accurate; you should cite a reliable source. This is particularly important for biographies of living persons. I know that thousands of Wikipedia articles have uncited facts, but we should try to improve Wikipiedia.


 * Even though it was your responsibility to provide a source, I had a quick look at the existing sources cited in these articles and found no support for your edits.


 * Incidentally, it is not always desirable to add an article to a category, even if it meets the criteria. See Categorization, which says:
 * "A central concept used in categorising articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define in prose, as opposed to a tabular or list form the subject as having—such as nationality or notable profession (in the case of people), type of location or region (in the case of places), etc."


 * Although I feel this "defining characteristic" guideline may be be too restrictive, I'm clear that an article should not be included in a category if the characteristic is not important enough to mention in the main text. For example, I think that being Welsh-speaking is not a defining characteristic of Jamie Jones (DJ) (unless he performs in Welsh), so I would not add him to the category even if I had a good source (but I probably wouldn't revert it if someone else had added it).


 * You refer to the inclusion of Brian Wilson (Labour politician) in Category:Scottish Gaelic-speaking people. While the article does not specifically say that Wilson speaks Gaelic it says that "He was Scotland's first designated Minister for Gaelic", which sort of implies that he speaks the language. It I had a source I would add "A native Gaelic speaker," at the start of that sentence. However, I am not defending that article, which another editor has already tagged with More footnotes.


 * However, I'm nobody special and you don't have to take my advice. If you are unhappy with my actions or you want an independent view then you could ask a question at Help desk. I am sorry if I seem heavy-handed or didactic, I am aware that you are a new editor and I do not want to put you off. Please continue to contribute to Wikipedia. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

John Thomas (photographer)
I can thoroughly recommend the 1977 book by Woollen and Crawford. Many bargain copies are available the net - mine cost 64p. Among the most notable images is this one of David Lloyd George. Might be a good addition to the article? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:30, 29 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Martinevans123, : Do Woollen and Crawford support the identification of Thomas in File:A group of walkers (?) NLW3366276.jpg, as discussed in Talk:John Thomas (photographer)? The Lloyd George picture is already in Commons at File:David Lloyd George NLW3362532.jpg. We should add a few photos to the article. Here is my suggested selection. What do you think?


 * Verbcatcher (talk) 23:58, 29 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I think a gallery containing all of these would be a fine addition. Curiously neither the "My mother (sitting)" nor the "group of walkers" appear in the book. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:11, 30 July 2015 (UTC) Just for future reference, the plates which do appear in the book are as follows:

• # W. Evans' Boat, Llanddulas F3

• # Cemaes R78

• # Angels TT9

• # Drawing Room Scene TT10

• # Independent Ministers BB31

• # Group of Ministers, Liverpool 1867 BB11

• # Dr. Owen Thomas, Liverpool LL19

• # Rev. L. W. Hughes HH80

• # Little Jones the Poet, Llanboidy JJ71

• # Lloyd George K45

• # Welsh Costume KK35

• # Pegi Llwyd W3

• # Woman in Shawl EE11

• # Cadi'r Big y Ro-wen, Denbighshire U78

• # Two Girls with Cups KK15

• # Mrs. James W Cost, Old Lady KK15

• # Bet Foxhall (Whitland) KK44

• # The mother of John Davis, Nerquis c.1865 Bb53

• # Cellan Factory DD38

• # Cilgerran Fair B64

• # Llanwrst Bards 1876 J85

• # Shearing Sheep J54

• # Carno Mill R52

• # Robert, Clysyblaidd, Cerrigydrudion CC30

• # Penllechog Mill, Llanaelhaiarn DD68

• # Gwaith Sets, Llanaelhaiarn A12

• # Dick Pugh KK83

• # Davis, the Joiner KK52

• # The Tailor Bryndu KK57

• # Lord Penmachno, father of all the quarrymen BB17

• # Joiners, Carwen KK50

• # Business Bob, Llanwrst Q36

• # Morris 'Baboon' Kk73

• # Mr. Roberts, Harpist BB28

• # Drovers, Montgomery KK56

• # Sleeping Beauties Q72

• # Morax Workers, Aberffraw S5

• # Llanfair Post Office R66

• # Capel Garmon Natives EE7

• # Six men in fancy costumes 02

• # Group of Cricketers, Newcastle Emlyn C53

• # Old Women of Ysbyty (Ifan) Alms House FF7

• # Cerrigydrudion Alms Houses CC27

• # A Starved Boy JJ82

Cambridge meet-up
Hi, Thanks for the "heads-up" about this meeting. I am a bit snowed under with work (in my retirement!!!), but I have put myself down as possibly attending. It will be interesting and I would like to meet you too, so I will try very hard! Emerald (talk) 00:16, 25 November 2015 (UTC)