User talk:VeriKami

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Proposed deletion of Zdzisław Piernik


The article Zdzisław Piernik has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references. Under Wikipedia policy, this biography of a living person will be deleted unless it has at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the prod blp tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within seven days, the article may be deleted, but you can when you are ready to add one.  333-blue  14:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

veriKami (talk) 07:36, 9 April 2016 (UTC) This is My First Article (translation/adaptation from Polish page) and I am trying to do what I could. I've just improved (a little) this article adding some references and wiki links. I hope I am going in good direction to meet Wikipedia Guidelines.


 * I'm sorry, but I had to delete that article because it was largely copy-pasted from here. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and copying or closely paraphrasing content from elsewhere is not acceptable. See WP:Copyright for details. Huon (talk) 12:55, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

veriKami (talk) 14:04, 9 April 2016 (UTC) I am also very sorry because (1) I've just started translating this article from polish wikipedia and first threat was that I have to use references (2) so I used and proceeded to do just refilling other content in which you decided me to brutaly discourage (3) so students from "non polish" language's parts of the world will have to learn this beautifull language to learn something about tuba and history of contemporary music (4) what if I have a permision to use this tekst ??? (5) and as I am reading here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Why_was_the_page_I_created_deleted%3F - «A summary including "PUI", "copyvio", or "CP" usually means the deletion is the result of a copyright problem, with the issue not being resolved within two weeks. (7) "with the issue not being resolved within two weeks.» (6) Two weeks (...)


 * Do you have a permission to use the text? More importantly, is that text released under a free license that allows everybody to re-use and modify it for any purpose, including commercial puposes? If not, it's not "free enough" for Wikipedia and cannot be used here. I checked the source website and saw no indication of such a licensing. If I missed that or you otherwise can provide evidence that the website is freely licensed, please do so, and I will gladly restore the page. Huon (talk) 19:50, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

veriKami (talk) 22:20, 9 April 2016 (UTC) I am quite confused and disorientated because this is my first edition here. I started this entry from direct translation of Polish page:

-> https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zdzis%C5%82aw_Piernik

but just after that, "article has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references"... so I checked how to add this (using ⟨ref⟩ tag) and used a paragraph from referenced (mentioned) web page (to be sure: as direct quotation). I compared some (translated) entries, e.g.:

-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krzysztof_Knittel

with "references":

-> http://www.polmic.pl/index.php?option=com_mwosoby&id=9&view=czlowiek&lang=en

where it looks OK to use citation like that. But, frankly speaking, I was not totaly happy with my text and thought to do some more editing and gathering information. It takes "some" time, especially because english is not my primary language. But you deleted my page (...). Mentioned text is (as you already noticed) not "totally free" - this is a translation and a copy from yet another site:

-> (english version) -> http://culture.pl/en/artist/zdzislaw-piernik

-> (polish version) -> http://culture.pl/pl/tworca/zdzislaw-piernik

-> (polish copy) -> http://www.polmic.pl/index.php?option=com_mwosoby&view=czlowiek&id=534&lang=pl

and all of them are using Polish Wikipedia data somehow. I am in direct contact with Maestro Piernik (just starting making documentary film about him) and could have all materials directly from source (with copyrights) but now I Realy do not know what to do... on how many ways one could edit that simple notes (using References)...?...

veriKami (talk) 07:27, 10 April 2016 (UTC) What do you Huon think about such compilation, based on Polish Wikipedia, with references to (mentioned) publications: (1) "Kto jest kim w Polsce. Informator biograficzny" (Who is who in Poland) + (2) Biographical note on LP "Zdzisław Piernik – Tuba", Polskie Nagrania SX1806 + (3) Culture.pl text...?... is it Good Enough for Undelete ??? Refering: WP:DNB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers


 * Zdzisław Piernik graduated from the Warsaw Academy of Music in the class of Juliusz Pietrachowicz. After being awarded at the 1970 National Festival of Young Musicians in Gdansk he began his career as a soloist. Shortly afterwards he acquire success at recitals in the country and abroad, at festivals and holiday courses in Bayreuth, Witten, Darmstadt, Bourges, Stockholm, Los Angeles.


 * He was the first tubist in Poland to implement flageolets, glissandos, frullatos and chords into his playing. He also began sonoristic experiments with preparated tuba. He is the inventor of the original preparation, remodelling the instrument to sound far from its natural tone.


 * He worked closely with many composers demonstrating them the capabilities of the tuba, natural and preparated. As a soloist Zdzisław Piernik has taken part in hundreds of symphonic and chamber concerts, with extremely varied repertoire, starting from classical with his own transcriptions, ending with the newest acquisitions of contemporary music and his own compositions.


 * In 2014, after few years break from performing, he returned to the stage and started cooperating with improvising musicians such as Sławomir Janicki (double bass), Michał Górczyński (clarinet), Andrzej Izdebski (guitar), Iwona Jędruch (gongs) and Tadeusz Sudnik (electronics).


 * Thank you for that explanation. This is somewhat tricky. On the one hand, culture.pl should have noted that the page, as a derivative work of freely licensed content from the Polish Wikipedia, is itself freely licensed. That's what our own license requires, and if they had done so, we could freely re-use the content. On the other hand, I do not see that they do so. That means they violate our license's terms - and by extension our Polish editors' copyright - but I'm not sure whether re-using the translation doesn't mean we are also violating theirs for the English text - and I don't think two wrongs will make a right here. I will undelete the page, but I will also list it among the pages with possible copyright issues to gather opinions from editors more experienced with copyright and licensing issues than me. Huon (talk) 13:58, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * On an unrelated note, if culture.pl takes its content from the Polish Wikipedia, it's no more reliable a source than Wikipedia itself (ie, not at all reliable), and it should not be used as a reference. Huon (talk) 14:15, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

veriKami (talk) 17:02, 10 April 2016 (UTC) For me it is all too too complicated... I think that Culture.pl (which is the portal of the national cultural authority Adam Mickiewicz Institute) is a good source of (successively collecting and ordering data), but in a case like that (when there is very little archival and current information) biographical notes may not have many differences between each other. These are all (including translation) some sort of compilation and recompilation. Personally, I am interested in the existence of "any" English version of the page so I will be grateful for hints what to do now.

In addition - I found another note (in english): http://www.windsongpress.com/brass%20players/tuba/Piernik.pdf

veriKami (talk) 12:37, 16 April 2016 (UTC) Dear Huon — Is there any progress in the "investigation"? By analyzing all available sources, I see that they are always using some extent to the Polish Wikipedia (changing the text more or less). I have a proposal to end the "situation" that simply translate a page from Polish Wikipedia (using a Wikipedia's translator) — what do you think?

veriKami (talk) 10:49, 17 April 2016 (UTC) Here: http://www.warszawska-jesien.art.pl/en/wj2012/program/performers/516027976 @ International Festival of Contemporary Music "Warsaw Autumn" is another direct translation from Polish Wikipedia. I think, it could be used in English version, because – as I mentioned earlier – all texts are using its source (more or less) as a reference.


 * That page says, "© 2012 Warsaw Autumn" - with no indication that it's freely licensed, with no reference to the Polish Wikipedia. Possibly they are violating our copyright, but that does not give us leave to violate theirs. Regarding the investigation, please be patient. It's listed, volunteers familiar with copyright will take a look, but that will take time. Huon (talk) 11:49, 17 April 2016 (UTC)


 * veriKami (talk) 16:31, 17 April 2016 (UTC) OK. It's just for the reference. I do not want that the fact that Others violate copyright laws prevented setting up of this page. These examples shows that other people benefit from the Polish Wikipedia as the most popular source of information.


 * veriKami (talk) 05:38, 22 April 2016 (UTC) Dear Huon – in the meantime I found an additional (written in English) - "true" written source - and supplemented Polish entry (bibliography):


 * From Paderewski to Penderecki: The Polish Musician in Philadelphia, Paul Krzywicki, Lulu Publishing Services, 2016, s. 282-283, ISBN 1483442675, ISBN 9781483442679


 * see: (polish) Zdzisław Piernik entry – which (to my eye) looks "well documented" now - a lot better than many other biographical notes... I am patient, but am I patient enough...?... I would like to translate and complement several other entries associated with, slightly forgotten, history of modern music and this case is lilmiting me...

veriKami (talk) 06:05, 26 April 2016 (UTC) – Dear Huon – To complete The Investigation I found full text of Biographical Note, mentioned in Wikipedia References for this entry from its very beginning – it originates from: Zdzisław Piernik – Tuba (LP, Polskie Nagrania SX 1806, 1982) – and were published in 1982 without any explicit Copyright Note (there is only mark (P) on the cover) – I hope it will help to finish resolving this issue

Copyright
Wikipedia's copyright policy requires that for any content copied from elsewhere, there be proof that the content is either in the public domain or licensed under terms consistent with Wikipedia's re-use terms: it is not sufficient that you cannot see any declaration that is isn't. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 14:55, 28 April 2016 (UTC)


 * veriKami (talk) 16:13, 28 April 2016 (UTC) Dear – JamesBWatson – this sample text (dated 1975) was only for comparatistic analysis and to proove, that the assumption that Polish Wikipedia text (and its translation) violates Culture.pl rights (their text, dated 2006, in the most parts is a copy and a copy of copy of attached sample, used many times on the internet) is fundamentally mistaken – but unfortunately here (as I see) there is no will to debate and critical thinking – so I am giving myself The Peace.
 * Sorry, I don't fully understand that. Are you saying that you quoted text to show that it does not infringe copyright? If so, can yo clarify that? Where does Polish Wikipedia come into this? And what do you mean by "there is no will to debate and critical thinking"? The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 16:20, 28 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Enclosing "literally" an example of the one (almost the oldest) original text (by Tadeusz Kaczynski came from the old vinyl disc) I wanted to prove that (if at all) it is rather Culture.pl who violates the copyright. Such were my conclusions after analyzing all these text, together with the dates of their creation. On the other hand: such kind of text (short biographical note) largely consists of standardized data and, as in this particular case, from sets of recordings. The amount of "reasonable language combinations" in such case is quite finite, I presume.


 * In the article in my "former sandbox" I was trying to show this article (including complete set of references) not using Culture.pl at all. This was carried out with the help of detailed footnotes and references to Other Texts (In particular issued in print). But all these texts are containing the same words and phrases...


 * But nobody reads and takes a look at this critically... Are you comparing the Right Things...?... Why Culture.pl and not Koczyński's text is violated...?... This is what I mean... First Mr. Huon and now Mr JamesBWatson simply erases... OK – I give up – although personally I would rather ask (especially the beginner and not native english speaker) – how can I help... And at the end – to be consequent – my text was only a translation from Polish Wikipedia – so you have to delete Polish version also.


 * ...and... at the Very End – I just compared My (being constructed in sandbox) & Culture.pl versions – here is Full "copyright violation" (in document with ~ 300 lines of code full of references and samples absent in culture.pl):


 * (1) He was the first tubist in Poland to implement flageolets, glissandos, frullatos and chords into his playing.


 * (2) As a soloist Zdzisław Piernik has taken part in hundreds of symphonic and chamber concerts. His concert repertoire is extremely varied - from his own transcriptions of the masters’ pieces to the newest acquisitions of contemporary music.


 * – question: How to write it differently ???
 * – question: Maybe without this it could be fine ???




 * veriKami (talk) 17:51, 28 April 2016 (UTC)


 * veriKami (talk) 08:39, 30 April 2016 (UTC) – Dear – JamesBWatson - in one word - I will be very grateful for an indication in which points in your opinion biography note of Zdzislaw Piernik infringes copyright? Deleting must have some rational reason. I will improve the controversial points with pleasure.


 * As was demonstrated earlier text in Culture.pl portal includes, among others, direct quotes from the text: Tadeusz Kaczynski (1984) from LP Zdzislaw Piernik - Tuba (Polish Recordings SX1806, 1982) – but the portal Culture.pl does not provide bibliography.


 * I asked for your draft to be undeleted at User_talk:JamesBWatson. If my request fails or is ignored you can also ask for that at WP:REFUND. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:32, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Without seeing your draft, I cannot exactly tell you what is the difficult part. Regarding any copyvio issues, the key is just to "use your own words", don't copy and paste from any other sources. I don't think WP:Notability is an issue here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:22, 5 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Having searched through things which have been written in various discussions, I have now figured out what you meant, and worked out the answer to my question "Where does Polish Wikipedia come into this?" Evidently, the text was a translation of content from Polish Wikipedia. I suggest that it may help in future if you don't assume that everyone you have contact with has seen and read every other discussion that may be relevant. As has been pointed out, there may be some academic question as to the copyright status of a translation which did not attribute its source, but I don't see that as a significant concern, and the page you created certainly isn't an unambiguous copyright infringement, so I have restored it. (I suggest that it may help if similar problems arise in future if you don't assume that everyone you have contact with has seen and read every other discussion that may be relevant. To me, you wrote such things as "it is rather Culture.pl who violates the copyright", but you didn't tell me whose copyright it violated, or why. The single sentence "the text at Culture.pl is a translation from Polish Wikipedia" would have explained the situation to me far more clearly than all of what you did write in answer to my posts.) The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 07:34, 5 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Dear JamesBWatson – thank you for undeleting of my sandboxed translation of Zdzisław Piernik entry and Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus for help – as I mentioned earlier this is my first attempt to translate some content and I really need some help and hints how to do it well. I think that (refering to sandboxed version) that, as I will finish translating all entries in references, this version is suitable for publication. I can possibly change the text in paragraph 3, starting with: "He worked closely with many composers..." as too similar to the version of Culture.pl (http://culture.pl/en/artist/zdzislaw-piernik) What is your opinion? Thank you again for your help and understanding. veriKami (talk) 09:11, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * My opinion is just a personal opinion, but for what it's worth I will tell you. If the original text unambiguously originated in Polish Wikipedia then you have a perfect right to copy it, provided you say where it came from. The copyright status of the translation is rather more doubtful, but my feeling is that since whoever posted that translation was ignoring the copyright on the original Wikipedia version, they really have no grounds for complaint if you use it. Ideally, you should use a new, independent translation, and changing it to make it less similar to the version of Culture.pl would be a good idea, but I personally will not object if you use it as it is. As I said, that is just my personal opinion, and I can't promise that nobody else will feel differently, so changing it might be safer. You should, however, give an edit summary saying where the content originated. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 10:34, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

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