User talk:Vhfs/sandbox

Okay, I really have enjoyed putting together the list of university art museums and galleries in New York State. I am really happy with how it came out, and I am very grateful for all the help I received for putting it together...and now I have another idea...I want to make a similar list, but of all the art history programs in the world. Including salaries and stipends. And I am wondering whether Wikipedia is the place for it...

I started it this morning on Google...but I think it would be better on W. What are people thoughts on this issue?

Here is the link to the google doc.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgQRmvZJxL9zdFQyZ3FyT0hMTDlURUtFQVFtZkxLaWc#gid=0

My opinion is that it falls under What Wikipedia is not. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 20:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree with that assessment. Huon (talk) 23:35, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you...but you know, I think an argument could be made that art history and art historians are a special case (there are only like 4500 art historians in the US), and their job is particular, and particularly important, they teach about and protect our collective patrimony. If Wikipedia lists sports teams and their achievements every season (See the San Diego Chargers Season 2014), I see no reason why it cannot be done for scholars and intellectuals.


 * I don't think you can imagine the amount of topics for which I've heard the "this is a special case for which Wikipedia's policies and guidelines should not apply" line. Every single San Diego Chargers season is subject to a ridiculous amount of third-party coverage in reliable sources that allows us to write a well-sourced article about it. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that all 4,500 art historians combined don't have that much coverage, at least not on a per-year basis. That may be a rather sordid sign of the state of our civilization, but unfortunately it also means that it's far, far more difficult to write about academics or museums than about sports teams. Huon (talk) 21:47, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for this...and sorry for the delay....um, yes indeed it is a sordid sign of the state of our civilization, but that does not mean it should not be done. It is just harder, not impossible, and it requires a different kind of research. But again, I think it is important, especially if one is interested in having a go at changing the sordid state of our civilization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs (talk • contribs) 12:57, 10 May 2014‎
 * That is another example of what Wikipedia is not. Wikipedia is not a medium for "changing the sordid state of our civilization", nor indeed of trying to promote any cause, no matter how noble and deserving you think that cause. See WP:NOTADVOCATE. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 15:15, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

WellJamesBWatson thank you for weighing in with your opinion, but I respectfully disagree with you. Wikipedia is an educational tool, so, as far as I am concerned, by its very nature it is a tool for changing the sordid state of our civilization. Making a list of art historians and art history's institutions, is not promoting a cause, it is rather taking stock of the cultural players that protect and ensure the future of our collective patrimony. Are the Wiki pages for the San Diego Chargers promoting the cause of the San Diego Chargers?

On another topic completely JamesBWatson, when you have a moment I would like you to please be more precise about your criticisms of the University art museums and galleries entry. In other words, please explain why you do not think it is neutral.

Thank you so much for your interest in any case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs (talk • contribs) 21:23, 11 May 2014 (UTC)


 * It is matter of luck that I chose to check back on this page, and saw your message. I do not have time to keep checking back on each of the thousands of talk pages that I have ever edited, to see if there are more messages for me, and I might well have never seen your message. However, for future reference, if you both post a link to an editor's user page (as you did) and also sign your post (which you did not do), the software will automatically inform that editor of your message. The way to sign a talk page post is to type ~ at the end of the post.
 * I did not say that " Making a list of art historians and art history's institutions" was promoting a cause: I said that using Wikipedia to change what you regard as "the sordid state of our civilization" was promoting a cause.
 * Are you sincerely unaware of the fact that the article University art museums and galleries is written in such a way as to promote a point of view, and is not written from a neutral point of view? What "is necessary for the advancement and the understanding of art in contemporary society" is a matter of opinion; saying that some institutions have "wonderful collections" is expressing a value judgement of those collections; such words as "Sadly" "important" unambiguously indicate that the writer is expressing opinions; "The two main academic freedoms are: the freedom of the student to study whatever they want, and the freedom of the teacher to teach whatever they want" is a clear expression of opinion, amounting virtually to a manifesto. ...and so it goes on.
 * You have thanked me for what you call my "opinion", but what I gave was not my opinion: it was a statement of Wikipedia policy. Whatever you would like Wikipedia to be, there is a firm policy that it is not to be used for promotion. It is clear both from the article content you have written and from your comments on this page that you are here with the intention of using Wikipedia to promote a point of view and a cause: to "[change] the sordid state of our civilization", to publicise your views on what is "necessary", what is "important", to declare and promote your views as to what university art museums and galleries should be, rather than neutrally to report what they are. That is contrary to Wikipedia policy: my opinion does not come into it.
 * Any page on Wikipedia which appears to exist for the purpose of promotion of anything, including promotion of opinions, may be speedily deleted without notice. Rather than delete the article you created, I chose to merely tag it with a couple of templates stating what are the problems with the article, to allow a chance for it to be improved. However, that does not diminish the fact that the article falls foul of Wikipedia policies.
 * As I have tried to indicate, my personal opinions are of no importance whatever, as what matter are Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. However, for what it is worth to you, I will tell you of a few of my personal opinions about the way Wikipedia works. I regard as absurd the amount of detailed coverage given in Wikipedia to certain aspects of popular culture, such as detailed accounts of each individual episode of some popular television series, and similar detail about the activities of some sports teams. I regard it as ridiculously disproportionate coverage. I also think that some serious academic topics get less coverage than they deserve because Wikipedia's notability guidelines work against them, while favouring any form of popular culture. However, none of this is relevant at present, as my personal opinions carry very little weight against Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and consensus among many editors over the course of years. I am a Wikipedia administrator, and I view my task as being to implement Wikipedia's policies to the best of my ability, not to use my position to further my own views. The messages I posted above, in response to your requests for help, were intended to help you to better understand what is acceptable in accordance with Wikipedia's established standards. In both of them I linked to the policy What Wikipedia is not, to show you what I was referring to. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:07, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I see that, unfortunately, you have decided not to take the opportunity I gave you to address the problems with the article I referred to. Just in case there is any doubt, complying with Wikipedia policies is not optional, whether you agree with those policies or not. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 19:30, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi, How do I get my article back that this guy deleted? This happened to me once on the French Wikipedia so I know it is still around somewhere. It is a great article, and this guy deleted it on false grounds. Thank you Vhfs (talk) 13:41, 14 May 2014 (UTC)]]


 * I spent a significant amount of time explaining to you what the situation was, in order to help you, but you chose to ignore my attempt at help, and now you state that what I wrote was "false", without offering any explanation whatever as to why you think that. In what way was I wrong in seeing it as an article written to promote a point of view? However, as far as your request for help is concerned, I see that you have posted a request at Requests for undeletion, so you evidently now know the answer to your question. I have posted a comment at Requests for undeletion. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 15:29, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Look! it is King of the Dudes! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Berry-wall-king-dudes.jpg

This is a very good entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansplaining — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs (talk • contribs) 15:20, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

University art museums and galleries
Here is the whole text, in case anyone is curious about the contents of the deleted article. One of my students found it for me.

University art museums and galleries From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

University art museums and galleries are collections of art that are developed, owned, and maintained by schools, colleges, and universities, and they exist almost everywhere. Though they are often overlooked, there are approximately 700 university art museums and galleries in America alone.[1] While historically the origins of these kinds of institutions can be traced back to learning collections in art academies in Western Europe, now they are most often housed in centers of higher education. The primary aim of many university art museums and galleries is to create a sphere removed from the pressures of the commercial art world where students, artists, curators, and faculty can experiment freely; in terms of both making and exhibiting art, and also curating. This can lead to a critical and sometimes controversial dialogue between the institution and the public that is necessary for the advancement and the understanding of art in contemporary society.

Contents

1 Distinctions between art museums, galleries, and academic museums 2 Vulnerability in times of crisis 3 Academic freedoms and artistic freedoms of expression 4 See also 5 References

Distinctions between art museums, galleries, and academic museums

An art museum houses a permanent collection, whereas a gallery usually hosts a changing program of art exhibitions. However, some university and college art galleries also feature permanent collections or showcase collections owned by the larger institution. Some institutions have a museum or an art gallery, and some have both. Sadly others, such as the City College of New York, have wonderful collections but neither a museum nor a dedicated gallery.[2]

Art schools in the United States often have many gallery spaces on campus. Notably, the Maryland Institute College of Art has 21 galleries. "Galleries" may refer to student exhibition spaces which are used for in-class critiques and works in progress, and may not be formally curated.

Many university and college libraries also feature galleries to showcase items from their collections, which can include art, music, poetry, literary works and ephemera.

Another important distinction is the difference between art museums and academic museums. All university art museums and galleries are types of academic museums, but not all academic museums are university art museums and galleries. For example, campuses often house important geological or natural sciences collections. This differentiation is important because, in a time of financial crisis, a college or university is more likely to deaccession their valuable art collection rather than their natural sciences collection.

Finally, it could be argued that if the student is not the central focus of all the different facets of the museum, such as stewardship, collection development, and curatorial practice, then the institution in question should not be referred to as an "academic museum."

Vulnerability in times of crisis

University art museums function in a number of different ways. Some exist as affiliates of a university, operated by a separate board of trustees and administration, while others are nested within the institution. Exactly because they often lack a distinct profile university art museum collections can become vulnerable to deaccession if under the control of administrations who are more concerned with fiscal issues rather than the integrity of their art collections of which they are ostensibly guardians. This is important because sometimes the value of the art collection is greater than the endowment for the entire college or university. One such example of a controversial deaccession was the Randolph College scandal; when the administration sold paintings from the museum's collection without the permission of the museum.[3] See also: Randolph College § Art controversies

Academic freedoms and artistic freedoms of expression

One of the things that makes university art museums and galleries emphatically different from traditional art museums and commercial galleries is their relationship with institutions of higher education where academic freedoms are ideally upheld. With the protection of academic freedoms, topics that would otherwise be avoided, ignored, or censored can be openly explored.[4] The two main academic freedoms are: the freedom of the student to study whatever they want, and the freedom of the teacher to teach whatever they want. When these two inseparable freedoms are observed, in the context of a university art museum and/or gallery, a unique setting for academic discovery is opened up. In no other type of art institution does controversy so frequently arise than in university art museums and galleries. Controversies regarding issues of propriety, politics, gender, sexuality etc. prove that these institutions often address difficult, relevant, and important questions for the colleges and universities that house them, and society writ large.[5] See also

Effects of the Great Recession on museums List of university art museums and galleries in New York State American Alliance of Museums Association of Academic Museums and Galleries website Museum Accreditation in America University Art Museums & Galleries of Virginia website

References

https://sites.google.com/site/universityartmuseumsinvirginia/national-directory-by-state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_college_art_collection#Art http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-national-gallery-george-bellows-painting-20140207,0,5046447.story#axzz2vDZjLBzN http://www.skidmorenews.com/arts-entertainment/the-tang-museum-s-classless-society-exhibit-examines-ideas-of-social-class-and-the-american-dream-1.3139585 https://sites.google.com/site/universityartmuseumsinvirginia/paper-topics/germano-anna-y — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vhfs (talk • contribs) 19:54, 14 May 2014 (UTC)