User talk:Vintagekits

Since you continue to be disruptive..
Take 48 hours off, VK. Your attacks on Elonka are outside the lines, and you should know that by now. SirFozzie (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yawn! exact reason?--Vintagekits (talk) 17:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Personal attacks and disruptive editing. I've brought it up here. [ [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] (talk) 17:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I am quite astounded by your retarded logic! Not sure why because I shold come to expect it to be honest. So who am I attacking and what is the attack because I cant figure it out.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well?--Vintagekits (talk) 19:52, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * So why is vvvkts....zzzz....ACCUSED (sorry) of not observing good manners?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.222.233 (talk) 23:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Vintagekits (talk) 21:23, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What "second bit" - throw me a fecking bone here and explain exactly why I am actually blocked instead of having me chase my tail.--Vintagekits (talk) 00:43, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This edit. Dekimasu よ! 00:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You dont like making it easy do you. What EXACTLY is the personal attack that warrants a 48 hour block.--Vintagekits (talk) 00:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * What a load. You just refactored this page to remove the links to the ANI thread and previous attempts to explain it to you. I'm revoking your talk page access for the duration of your block to avoid you're wasting any more of other's time with this foolishness. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:53, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The fact that, considering you have a block list that is literally as long as my forearm you still don't get what you're doing wrong here makes me a sad panda. Which, in itself is odd, since I'm not a panda. It does still make me sad, though. Have you ever considered maybe going somewhere else on the internet? HalfShadow (talk) 00:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC x2) I have not always been Elonka's biggest fan, and for all I know she may not have made the correct decision as far as Domer48 is concerned. There is nothing wrong with questioning the probation itself. To that end, however, it is unnecessary to disparage Elonka herself; a review can take place without such comments, which are not conducive to a productive editing environment. As a corrollary of what you can see at the top of No personal attacks, comment on the action, not on the administrator. If you really feel it is necessary to review an administrator's action on a wider scale, there are other venues for that which are more productive. Likewise, note that WP:NPA says that "Recurring attacks are proportionally more likely to be considered disruption." Much as in the case of the probation mentioned here, your history of being blocked for personal attacks was likely considered as a contributing factor when deciding to block your account. Dekimasu よ! 01:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Ban
As you already know, you have been indef'd and banned per this ANI thread.  — Rlevse • Talk  • 02:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * FYI to all the summary in the block log was the result a wrong pasting job. It should have been this  — Rlevse • Talk  • 03:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I have restored your email and talkpage rights.  — Rlevse • Talk  • 15:07, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Rlevse. Vintagekits, please set a good example with your communications.  I've vouched for you to a certain degree. Jehochman Talk 15:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Jehoch, which is in effect, SirFozzie's 48 hours block or Rlevse's indefinate ban?--Vintagekits (talk) 10:25, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

For battling POV and suffering for the project I award you this.....
Jeez Vk; you break my heart! Why keep effin' and blinding at people when you know what will happen????? Still, hope you get back. Maybe look up "apology" in the dictionary and practice in front of a mirror - without head-butting the glass :) Sarah777 (talk) 10:09, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmmmm.....Maybe I should be apologising: it seems you were merely explaining the phrase "cop yourself on" when an Admin interpreted that as a personal attack. Bad call. Sarah777 (talk) 10:21, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Is the Barnstar something I should NOT wish to have on my name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.222.233 (talk) 23:12, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Not banned yet
The debate about blocking or banning is still ongoing at ANI, as such VK should be permitted to edit his talk page. Everyone has a right to defend themselves before a sentence is passed. There seems to be a lot of unssemly and undue haste on this matter - why?  Giano  10:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I have to say this looks like a witch hunt. As I look at it, it is beginning to stink. A discussion about a possible ban was opened... a dozen or so people voted straight away to say ban... and then people tried to close the discusion AFTER AN HOUR and impose a ban. Sounds like some canvassing was going on there and some people letting their hurt feelings over rule their reasonable side. Having had a look into this yes VK has some WP:Civil issues but really... complete ban after an hour's discussion? I have to say I think a number of editors should step away from this issue completely. --LiamE (talk) 10:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

In response to my request for copies of emails on this subject, I have received this from Vintagekits, I mailed back and asked for his permission to post it here - he agrees. It was sent to RLevse half an hour or so ago, perhaps when he get's out of bed, (as we have all been now for some hours) he will respond. I think VK makes a reasonable request and point:

"To RLevse: The discussion about my block is ongoing and as half of Europe has just woken up I think you should allow them the chance the have there say.

Can you a. please restored by block to the original 48hr b. unbar me from sending emails and c. unblock me from using my talk page.

You have left me utterly armless and legless in being able to defend myself against the allegations put.! From Vintagekits

Posted here by  Giano   12:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd support that. I'm of the view that Vk was by no means the only person sending emails last night. And the initial block was so bad it merited a severe reaction. IMHO. Sarah777 (talk) 12:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Show me the diff that justifies preventing this user from any sort of communication. I don't see it.  When people get blocked we expect them to get heated and do a little cussing on their own talk page.  Escalating at that point is harmful to Wikipedia.  Just let them blow of steam and if they are still in the mood to cause trouble after 48 hours, reblock them. If you think the user has warn out community patience, you need to give the community a chance to comment. One hour of discussion is not enough. Jehochman Talk 14:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * If you do adjust the block, and consensus seems to be against the idea, please do not re-enable e-mails. I don't appreciate e-mails of the type I was sent last night, I don't need to hear how disgusted VK is with me or any of his other opinions on me. There is always the unblock mailing list, or arbcom to e-mail. E-mailing other Wikipedians has already been abused. Chillum  15:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Have we had a chance to look at this infamous email yet or do we have to just take you word on it that it was as bad as you have been making out? --LiamE (talk) 15:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Chillum, you have email enabled so you can receive emails - was the email abusive or was it not, perhaps you are "confused" - again? In fact, I think I will seek VK's permission to post it here, then we all may judge.  Giano   15:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, the choke hold is off! I would like to know why I was banned from my talkpage in the first place. If my talk page wasnt banned then no one would have received any emails - as it was my only outlet of communication at a time that editors were discussing my very "wiki-life" what was I supposed to do.


 * Even though it was late and I was tired and should have been in my nest, I dont think I sent anything untoward, I may have expressed my disgust and disappointment the way some experienced appeared to be screwing the facts in what I considered a "witch hunt". I am happy for any editor to disclose the content of any email I sent last night to allow others deem if it was offending or not. --Vintagekits (talk) 16:02, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

You obviously have never experienced bashing your head against a brick wall for months on end. I am hounded by British sympathising editors on every page I venture onto because of my support for physical forces Irish republicanism - what you Americans would now call "terrorism". I never expect a fair shot so was not suprised by your decline - admins look at my block log and say "fuck me this guy is a monster" - however the vast majority of the blocks were bad blocks and most of the time an admin with enough balls to spot it unblocks me. Its simple just come to an end now - I've had enough. its utterly contemptable and inflamatory to block someones talkpage - a talk page should not be blocked unless it is being used to abuse wikipedia, cause further breaches of policy or to out another editor. NONE OF THESE WERE BEING DONE!!!
 * SarekOfVulcan, asks if Elonka considered my comment a personal attack. Shouldnt the more pertaintant question be to Domer - i.e. if my interpretation of what he meant by "cop yourself on" was a more polite version of what I said.--Vintagekits (talk) 16:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I have little desire to continue explaining my actions here over and over. My removal of talk page access had nothing to do with the discussion at ANI, and pre-dated any serious discussion of a ban/indef block. I was simply trying to prevent VK from posting any more unblock requests during what was at that time only a 48 hour block. Next thing I know this is in my email inbox:
 * and another:

YOU ARE SIMPLY TRYING TO PUSH ME INTO MAKING A REAL PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU WHICH I AM ON THE VERGE OF! you are a disgrace!
 * I'm not particularly offended or appalled by these, but they are not exactly helpful or logical either. VK seems to believe he is the target of some vast British Wikipedian conspiracy. I can only speak for myself of course, but I can assure you my actions were not based in any way on his nationality or political views. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:58, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * you are not offended because there is nothing to be offended by - he is merely explaining to you how he feels. If he feels ganged up upon and victimised, can you really be surprised after the events of last night, when while all of Europe was fast asleep a group of mostly American acted as they did in a seemingly co-ordinated fashion and at such speed.  Giano   17:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Get real, the idea that this disruptive user feels ganged up on and victimized is a joke. Off2riorob (talk) 17:07, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) You need to stop beating that drum. Perhaps the closing of the discussion and imposing of a ban was a bit hasty, I must say I was surprised to see things progressing so quickly, but the idea that it was some deliberate "anti-European cabal conspiracy" has little to no merit. If anything it was VK who was doing the canvassing with all of his email activity. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:10, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm very much afraid you people should have considered your actions and words more carefully during the night - then things may not appear as they do.  Giano   17:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "Perhaps the closing of the discussion and imposing of a ban was a bit hasty" - when you can say something like that I really just shake my head and wonder how you were ever allowed be an admin. Rlvese acted acted as judge, jury and executioner last night - and all down in the record time of an hour - whilst all of other had slept, they would have awoken to find me beheaded. I find it strange that until Alsion turned up this was unanimous to ban me - but since then it is even with regards bans and opposes. I find that very strange. Either there is a mailing list or there are a lot of lemmings - maybe both. I dont know, all I know if that I have had the shitty end of the stick here. You personally havent even taken one moment to consider this from my perspective and it shows.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Howdy Vk. It's your usage of foul language, that's getting ya into these block problems. Personally, I don't mind the colorful words, but it appears an increasing numbers of editors do. GoodDay (talk) 17:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I know i have a potty mouth - it doesnt bother me to be honest its not turned on to insult people its just the way I talk. I supposes it could be a cultural thing.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If the community chooses 'not' to ban you, I'd recommend no more foul words. Afterall, once the Wiki community tells an editor he/she is out? he/she is out. GoodDay (talk) 17:28, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps somebody could write a Javascript filter that would clean up your posts. Watch out for the seven dirty words. Jehochman Talk 17:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I hear you GD, and thank you for all your support and advice in the past. It is genuinely much appriciated.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No prob, Vk. GoodDay (talk) 17:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * PS: I've voted oppose on the Wiki ban proposal, as you haven't vandalized any articles. GoodDay (talk) 17:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * My personal motto at Wikipedia is "go with the flow". Right, GoodDay?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * PS, I also voted oppose.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:55, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep. GoodDay (talk) 17:56, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Howdy Vk. I decided to delete my 'vote' from your Ban case. I shall have to take a neutral stand on it. GoodDay (talk) 19:04, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw! I have to say that I am a little disspointed that you did that. Answer me this what made you change it? When in the last year have I vandalised a page or caused so much disruption that it woul dwarrant an indefinate ban?--Vintagekits (talk) 10:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I had to revert to 'neutral', when I was reminded of your past sock-puppetry. Which (I'm glad) you haven't committed for over a year, since your last Banning case. GoodDay (talk) 14:31, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I have to say that certain people have been trying to make a mountain out of a molehill over VK's emails. They frankly look like reasonable responses given his limitations on communication at the time. I have taken some time to look over some of the troubles articles and there does seem to be a systematic Britsh POV bias going on. No wow I will lay my cards on the table here... I am a Brit... but being from an Irish family I am probably more aware of and attuned to the issues at hand than most editors. Most editors seem to take the Britsh POV and are backed by what would seem to be a a number of admins all with either a British POV or American ones with a strong anti terrorism POV. Take the "British Isles" as an example. Geographically and geologically speaking the term seems fine to me - simply meaning the group of Islands the biggest of which happens to be called Great Britain. That is pretty standard terminology for any group of Islands to be refered to by the biggest. Now the term is also used in political and economic sense where its use is not so clear cut and can have overtones that are not welcome that most British editors are simply unaware of, and the term is used in this way, which can be considered an inflamatory way, throughout wikipedia. There are alternatives to the British Isles which can and should be used outside of purely geographic or geological articles yet the weight of editors on the British side surpresses this. It is no wonder to me that editors who try and redress this balance problem feel like they are beating their head against a wall sometimes because frankly they are, though I would say it is not a wall of anti Irish sentiment but one of ignorance to the issue. --LiamE (talk) 03:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I've changed my mind (yet again). I'm once again, opposing the indef-ban, as I've no evidence of sock-puppetry (since the last Banning case). GoodDay (talk) 15:37, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Official statement requested
Jehochman has asked for you to write up and post an official statement to be contributed to the ANI discussion before it's closed. Can you create one here and indicate when you are done editing and want it copied over? Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * George, I wasnt on line much yesterday and will be away from my computer for most of today as well as I have family visiting. That issues would you like me to address.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:52, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Vintagekits, my advice is to request a full and thorough Arbcom case, so much has happened in your career here that is does need cold and calculated scrutiny - a laying bear of facts if you like. Then a few people can assess if you are of any value to the project rather than a braying bob. The strange behaviour of some very important Wikipedians yesterday in the threads concerning you has convinced me, you need to be examined only by the Arbcom. It will be unplesant for you - you have many wiki-faults, but are not alone in that - as I see it you are standing on the trapdoor with a noose around your neck, and the mob have their hands on the lever - the lever needs to he in the hands of a responsible few. That's my advice take it or leave it.  Giano   10:47, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the issues which I would hope you would address are the comments and issues raised in the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents thread. A number of editors have commented, there and in the various alternatives which flowed out of that in the major heading.
 * Any specific ideas, comments, opinions that were raised there and statements you'd like to make. Someone's going to have to make a determination and close the various proposed community actions threads, and it's only fair if you have a chance to be heard and respond to the issues.
 * I see Giano's comment above requesting an Arbcom case. That's probably premature at the moment - nobody has closed the community remedies threads, so for right now you're just indef blocked, not banned or otherwise restricted.  I recommend that the community discussion be allowed to come to an end and then if you disagree then appeal any decision to Arbcom.  That's purely procedural - I think Arbcom will want to wait until the community decides, so it wouldn't make sense to appeal to them before.  Once there is a community decision of some sort then you should feel free to file an Arbcom appeal or ask for a case to be opened.
 * If waiting 24 more hours while you have family over and are unavailable to comment here will help, I will post a request to the thread asking for no admins to close during that period, until you have a chance to respond. I believe there's no harm done to anyone by a decent wait - a week would be hard to justify, but another day (or even two) won't hurt the community or you in any way.
 * Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * George, if you could that would be great. There is a big game tonight and they will want to be brought out for that as well. I hope to put an hour aside tomorrow to get my thoughts down. Thanks.

Yep agree a full and thorough Arbcom case. To cut out the BS insist on Diff's for any and every accusation. -- Domer48  'fenian'  10:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Lift the block
Given the nature of the block and my suspicion, based on personal experience, that this is a tactic in a banning process I believe the ban should be lifted before any further proceedings. Here we have a trial in progress while the accused has already been locked away without bail - all the better to provoke him. Not the circumstances for a fair assessment of the many issues at play here. It's not as if Vk can abscond while out on bail. I think my proposal here will tease out the real agenda of the block and ban lobby. Sarah777 (talk) 12:17, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No, any debate about lifting the block will split any arguement in process and confuse things further, let one decision be made at a time. If he can't be mentored, and he can't have an Arbcom case then there is no point unblocking at any time. VK can post here and a hundred helpers can post where he wants things.  Giano   12:36, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I didn't ask for any "debate". I asked for the bad block to be lifted, given it's nature and context. I am still asking for the block to be lifted, first. Sarah777 (talk) 13:13, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That's my advice, take it or leave it.  Giano   13:18, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Mentorship
Would you be willing to have me, and likely some others (which will need to include people you don't care for - so to be acceptable for those who do not appreciate the effort being expended to keep you editing this project), as mentor(s)? This would run concurrent to Jehochman's suggested limiting you to sport/boxing topics and ban from Ireland/Troubles related areas. I am asking the community the same thing at ANI, and will only accept supping from the poisoned chalice if there are two positive responses. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:05, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There doesn't seem to be much likelihood of the community accepting you being mentored, so there is little point in you agreeing/committing. Perhaps the ArbCom option above is the only venue left to determine if there is a way for you to continue to contribute. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, but suggest leaving the mentoring option just a little longer - people do change their minds - occasionaly.  Giano   11:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The Mentorship option is acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 15:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I would offer mentorship as part of any Arbitration decision, should a Request get to such a stage, in any event. I regret that those opposing mentorship currently appear to be too numerous for anything but a complete about face to bring about a consensus for it. I think 36 hours from my initial offer should be sufficient time to establish the communities position on it, so there is a little time yet. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:24, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Completely unconnected question
Is Manny Pacquiao's fight on Miguel Cotto British TV tonight, if so when ? I can't find it anywhere and the dog has eaten today's newspaper? someone watching this page is bound to know.  Giano  22:20, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sky Sports 1. Rockpock  e  t  22:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Than you Rockpocket, but I on a computer wired not to let me look at anything pleasurable (probably why it permits Wikipedia) could you have a quick look for me, I think I have a few hours yet.  Giano   22:25, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh. Its being shown live at 2am on Sky Sports 1:
 *  Live Big Fight Special in HD. Manny Pacquiao v Miguel Angel Cotto. All the action from the bout at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, as Pacquiao steps up a division to challenge for Cotto's WBO Welterweight title. Pacquiao's last fight was the second-round knockout of Ricky Hatton in a light-welterweight contest in May, and he can further add to his reputation as arguably the best pound-for-pound boxer in the world should he take the belt from Cotto.
 * As far as I can tell, it is not being shown on any free-to-air channel. So it depends whether Giano's household subsidizes Mr Murdoch or not ;) Rockpock  e  t  22:51, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well actually we do, purely for the children's educational purposes you understand. In fact, it's purely for the children's educational purposes that I fiddled with the parental controls of this computer and now can't reverse them, this is the problem with passwords when you seldom spell the same word twice two days running. Thank you for that.  Giano   23:02, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Block and associated discussion
I have closed the discussion at the incident noticeboard regarding your block. At this time, there is a strong, albeit not unanimous, consensus that the block is to remain. You may, as normal, request that the arbitration committee review the matter. As I stated in my closing rationale, if you post a request for arbitration on this page, I will move it to requests for arbitration for you.

Whatever the outcome here is, I urge you to strongly consider why things have come to this point. I hope that you will do so. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:18, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Came on to post a response now. Is it too late.--Vintagekits (talk) 16:46, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It aint too late. GoodDay (talk) 16:48, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well it looks like Seraphimblade has now closed the discussion.--Vintagekits (talk) 16:53, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, it's closed. But ya got the option of requesting a review by WP:RFAR, per Sera's above instructions. GoodDay (talk) 16:59, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Take a peek at here, another option. GoodDay (talk) 18:24, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * PS: The RFAR route, is much less risky (of course). GoodDay (talk) 18:54, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * VK, I strongly advise you to take this whole matter to Arbitration. I repeat, your value and worth to the project needs to be formally and quietly assessed by the Arbs. If you are concerned, and I think you should be, RLevse can be asked to recuse, banning you in an hour while Europe slept was totally wrong and biased all further debate on ANI. I am unsure if you should remain or not, but I truly beleive what I said here in the now famously oversighted edit (outing indeed - no one was fooled by that excuse) . You need and deserve a fair rational hearing, and that is probably the only way you will get one.   Giano   11:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Pacman, WBO welterweight champion
Pacman TKO's Cotto in 12th rd. I was close, eh? GoodDay (talk) 15:53, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

The Third Road
Hi Vintagekits, the two paths laid before you are both shithouse because both of those paths mean more unhappy work for me.

Come over to Wikisource for a while! Bring all your friends!! ;-)

Wikisource needs someone with your passion. s:Wikisource:Sports doesn't mention boxing. Someone needs to create s:Wikisource:Boxing We have a few poor quality works in s:Category:Boxing.

As an example, I have set up s:Index:Pugilistica - 1906 - Volume 1.djvu and s:Index:Pugilistica - 1906 - Volume 2.djvu, where you can clean up and improve existing biographies written long ago. e.g. Thomas Smallwood. Simply log in, click edit, and fix the OCR errors. The Wikisource community will help you with the syntax voodoo; you'll get the hang of things pretty quickly.

I'll be happy to set up projects for any old book that interests you; any topic, any language. I'd rather spend my time helping you settle into Wikisource rather than spend that same time in arbitration or investigating socks.

After a few months, you can then appeal your Wikipedia ban either to Arbcom or to the community. John Vandenberg (chat) 13:05, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Please do come over. We are very friendly and only bite if you ask us very nicely. ;-)  Gotta to be beat all that poetry stuff that some love!  We need more sport, things of real consequence.  More than happy to show you the ropes, and it is great for building up resources and links to be used here. billinghurst (talk) 11:09, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Troubles Arbitration Case: Amendment for discretionary sanctions
As a party in The Troubles arbitration case I am notifying you that an amendment request has been posted here.

For the Arbitration Committee

Seddon talk|WikimediaUK 16:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

VK is blocked indefinitely, not retired
Why is the tagging of his user page with {indefblocked} even up for debate? Why are certain people so absolutely desparate to make themselves look like tag teaming edit warriors that are utterly blind to reality? Considering there are already descriptions of this nature of these exact editors before arbcom right now, you would think they might take the hint and actually stop acting like tag teaming edit warriors. It is precisely this sort of lack of clue about reality that got VK indeffed in the first place. MickMacNee (talk) 19:04, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If the blocking admin did not put the tag up, other editors should not. It is unnecessary bear poking. This user has contributed a lot of content to Wikipedia; he may be blocked indefinitely but we have not shut the door behind them, and adding a tag that queues their userpage for deletion like we do to mere vandals is insensitive at best. – xeno talk  19:05, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This is the same kind of logic that allowed him to be 'retired' for the past 6 months when he wasn't, allowing him to flip off the countless people who rightly pointed that fact out, hilariously, even Giano. VK's feelings are paramount I guess, plain common sense and consideration for other users has no place here, as usual. If the template serves no purpose, then delete it. How it is in anyway usefull to Wikipedia as a whole to suggest to all visitors to this page that VK is not indef blocked, but has merely wandered off into the wilderness and could return at any time, is utterly beyond me. MickMacNee (talk) 19:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * And not that it even matters, but Beeblebrox was the admin who originally revoked VK's talk page privelages on 12 November, and he was the one who then placed the indef blocked tag here one hour after VK was indef blocked the same day, which Rlevse the final blocker has never seemingly objected to. It was only in the subsequent intervention hours later by you Xeno that suddenly this tag is apparently not appropriate. If none of you admins can agree as to how the template should be used, that's fine, but don't pretend like this convention of 'must be placed by the blocker' has any legitimacy at all. MickMacNee (talk) 19:36, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, this issue perhaps needs to be clarified at the appropriate venue to try and get folks on the same page. – xeno talk  19:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It's just VK's best buddies trying to be as disruptive as him, I bet that within a few months they will all be going down the same line as he is. Being sensitive to VK is a laugh, since when was he ever sensitive? Jeni  ( talk ) 19:11, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not VK's best buddy; in fact I barely know him. However, I do not think treating a long-time contributor like a garden-variety troll or vandal is appropriate - no matter who that contributor may be. Adding the "indef blocked" template serves no constructive purpose and if the blocking admin wanted it there, they would have added it themself. – xeno  talk  19:14, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * jeni, it is just that sort of negative and uninformed comment that has caused most of the problems which surround VK and irritated him so. If you read some of the diffs surrounding this case, you will know that far from being one of VK's best buddies, I am merely one of many that want to see things brought to a satisfactory and happy conclusion for all. This may be a happy conclusion for you, but it is not happy or even satifactory for many others. I am not re-hashing the debate that has been had, but if you think this will be the conclusion and the end of Vintagekits then you are indeed uninformed.  Giano   19:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Xeno is right. Regardless of the correctness of the indef block (I am in two minds about it myself), dancing on someone's grave is looked on dimly both IRL and on Wikipedia.  Stop it, please.  Black Kite  19:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ditto. I was just about to say the same thing.  Grave dancing is not welcomed.  Our goal is to help contributors, not push them over the edge and celebrate when they fail. Jehochman Talk 19:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing none of you then give a monkeys about the people who are utterly confused when they arrive here and are greeted with the impression VK has just wandered off, or were similarly concerned about the treatment of the dozens of people who were greeted with such sensitity here when they arrived because of one or other of VK's edits to find a 'retired' editor was more than active, and duly commented as such. None of these people seem to be in your considerations at all. This is supposed to be a community, where basic things like notifications of status have a pretty obvious and logical purpose. Pandering to the sensitivites of people blocked after one of the largest shows of community displeasure I have ever seen for an established contributor, is utterly secondary to plain and simple common sense tbh. MickMacNee (talk) 19:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The first thing I do to check an editors activity level is look at their contributions page. And the first thing you are presented with at Special:Contributions/Vintagekits is the fact that they are indefinitely blocked. – xeno talk  19:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing that's what most experienced editors do (although its a bit of a fiddle to do even for experienced users for the likes of Giano with his multiple redirected user pages), but Wikipedia is not made up of just experienced users as you well know. MickMacNee (talk) 20:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Let the administrators decide. GoodDay (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Which ones? The ones who placed the tag, or the ones who removed it? MickMacNee (talk) 19:49, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If necessary, contact the administrator-in-chief. If one wishs Vk exiled, one shouldn't be risking a block, over Vk's userpage. GoodDay (talk) 19:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Considering Jimbo once said that if he weren't American, he would have loved to be born British, I think that's an excellent crazy suggestion. MickMacNee (talk) 20:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, for crying out loud, somebody who cares should just ask Beeblebrox if he wants his original placement of the tag restored or not. And regardless of the response, move along afterwards.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:57, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The next person who edit wars over the tag earns themselves an indefinite block of their own, and I will press for a formal ban. In the face of any objection, we should err on the side of decency, compassion, and polite behavior, and not screw around with the user and usertalk space associated with others.--Tznkai (talk) 20:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * An indef block or ban, is a little heavy. A 1-hour block would likely do the trick, IMHO. GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * For crying out loud, it is just a silly little tag. Just let it be people.  The presence or lack of tag doesn't do anything to change the status quo.
 * Why so many want to edit war over a tag is beyond me, but to suggest edit warring should result in an indefinite block and formal ban is beyond ridiculous. It isn't even remotely that important. There are a thousand ways people could better spend their time 1) arguing over the tag and 2) worrying what other people think about it. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, Thaddeus, it's not just a tag -- it's a tag that says "Hey, everybody, come delete me!"--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * And frankly, anyone who even thinks about deleting it will get a trout followed by an even bigger trout. Just ... don't.  Black Kite  20:25, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

"All we are saying.... is give peace a chance". GoodDay (talk) 20:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The best solution I've found in these situations is often to delete the userpage altogether. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:04, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I would rather it stayed as is, if reality and common sense isn't going to win the day. The sooner that uninformed readers learn about the various idiosyncrasies of Wikipedia, like the running joke non-status of tags, the better for them. Coming here and finding a red-link won't help them on this learning path one bit. MickMacNee (talk) 21:14, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Plus deletion removes some of the evidence from those users seeking answers to the question as to why VK is blocked indefinitely from editing the site (presuming that is that they get that far in their knowledge quest, and have passed the first hurdle in knowing not to trust any tag they see on a random users page and to instead delve behind the scenes, WP:CSI style) MickMacNee (talk) 21:20, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

My reasoning for threatening an indefinite block are simple. This kind of edit warring is disruptive, and is all about making silly points in a conflict that has nothing to do with improving an encyclopedia. Quite frankly, its often grave-dancing behavior, which should be strictly discouraged. I have no tolerance for such displays, and neither should any of you.--Tznkai (talk) 21:31, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Why is this editor's talk page being vandalized?
An indefinite block is not a ban. If Vk chooses to retire that's their decision. Their block was unseemly enough and pushed by the worst kind of partisans, but now to have this abusive antagonistic and disruptive display is outrageous. Anyone who alters this editor's talk page from their Vintagekits' desired state should be indefinitely blocked. Simple as that. This kind of bullying is unacceptable and makes clear the kind of abuse this editor was suffering. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:10, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Just one question, why are some of ya describing Vk as they? Vk is a him. GoodDay (talk) 00:28, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * See Singular they. Rockpock  e  t  01:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Phew, I thought ya'll were describing Vk as having 'multiple personalities'. GoodDay (talk) 16:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Not appropriate.
This back and forth bickering is not appropriate on a banned users talk page. The hint should have been taken when the user page was protected. If it continues I will protect this page and take a trout to those who led me to do so. Take it to ANI(or even better just drop it), arguing here is nothing more than a drama magnet. Chillum 02:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah Chillum, you are in error; VK is not banned but blocked, a subtle difference I agree, but a nevertheless a difference. The problem is that all debate that lead to the blocking, before and after, is null and void. The reason for this is that the Arbitrator and those few that quickly arrived in the night and pushed the block through in an hour were in error by their unnecessary haste. Therefore all debate that followed was biased, poisoned and influenced by the fact that an Arbitator has already declared him guilty. This is the reason I want VK to take the matter to Arbcom (RLevse if he is still around, recused). Then, at least we will have a fair and impartial result, otherwise the bickering here is unlikely to cease.  Giano   07:52, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. -- Domer48  'fenian'  10:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've currently 'no clues' as to Vk's status. Is he retired, banned, indef-blocked, a victim of abduction, re-programed, etc? GoodDay (talk) 16:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * He added the retired tag some months ago, and resumed editing with the tag in place. He is currently blocked indefinitely. Personally, at this point, unless the editor files a request for lifting the block with the ArbCom soon, I would favor turning the user page into a redirect to the talk page, and then full protecting the redirect. It would allow someone who really wanted to see the user page history to still do so, but it would take a bit of pointed effort to do so. John Carter (talk) 17:01, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Okie Dokie. GoodDay (talk) 17:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The talk page history is viewable. If this editor chooses to retire and to post something on their page accordingly that's within their discretion. The vandalism and campaign of attacks against this editor, who's already been blocked indefinitely, need to stop. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Which edits were WP:Vandalism? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:28, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you read the history CoM? His (latest) 'retirement' was 3 months, 800 edits, 5 blocks and 30 edit wars ago. Giano is just playing his usual role, VK is indef blocked, defacto banned, and will remain so barring a miracle. Still, new arbcom, new direction and all that. MickMacNee (talk) 17:29, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * So let him go quietly as he chooses. There's no need to rub salt in his wounds or to stick unsightly templates on his usertalk page. It looks like a vendetta in a dispute that you and those siding with you already won. There's no policy restricting people from retiring or unretiring. Just leave him be as you would want to be treated had you been the one to receive such a harsh sanction. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Why is this such a problem for you Mick?  Giano   17:37, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You can't get that from the numerous statements above? MickMacNee (talk) 17:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright. New idea, everyone out, this is a dead horse argued on the page of a non-present editor, but if you insist on continuing to discuss it, do it on WP:ANI or I can sacrifice my own talk page to the task.--Tznkai (talk) 18:04, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be discussed elsewhere. Vintagekits' page should be restored to the state he put it until there is a consensus directing otherwise. The standard policy seems clear in favoring respect for other editors even when they've been sanctioned and to allow editors to retire and unretire at their discretion. This looks like a disruptive campaign of antagonism by partisans who aren't satisfied with the indefinite block they already won. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Trouts all around. Take a hint, this should be discussed in a neutral venue or not at all. VK is not participating in this discussion and that is the only reason to have a discussion here. I am protecting this page for 24 hours, hopefully by tomorrow more sense will be shown. Chillum 19:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Edward O'Brien (Irish republican)
An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Edward O'Brien (Irish republican). We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").

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RfD nomination of 'The Great White Hope'.
I have nominated for discussion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. — The Man in Question (in question)  10:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Request for feedback
Alright VK, Kattis from the HB here. Myself and the Da finally finished out wiki page and was wondering what the next step is re; feedback. Type this into the wiki search bar... Free State Intelligence Department - Oriel House

I'm not sure if the page is properly live yet as its not coming up when I google search it. Could you make the other members of the 'The Irish Republicanism WikiProject' group aware as I couldn't see a 'talk' tab to share this. Thanks again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.209.68 (talk) 19:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs
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Proposed deletion of Mark McAllister


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Articles for deletion nomination of The Lying Down Game
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Orphaned non-free image File:Emagee commonwealthbelt.jpg
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Clothing store listed at Redirects for discussion
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Unblock request
See discussion at WP:ANI.  Sandstein  17:05, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
 * So far the few who have participated are unanimous in opposing an unblock. Doing this on Christmas is probably not going to win any sympathy. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:21, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Can I just point out for the record that VK is not currently socking, nor has he been - to my knowledge - since his indef block - A l is o n  ❤ 23:23, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In that case, I've no probs with unblocking. GoodDay (talk) 18:18, 26 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I note the SPI on MFIreland being suspected as a sock, has been closed per lack of 'diff's for evidence. GoodDay (talk) 18:24, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If by mentioning socking you intend to imply that the standard offer applies, I wish you would just say so. The conversation at ANI is not about socking, and he was not blocked for socking. The SPI case did not find evidence of socking. Fine. I'm willing to believe that, it doesn't change my position one bit as I wasn't previously aware of it anyway. The offer is just a suggested course of action, it does not apply in every case. I am a big fan of it myself but I don't believe this is a situation where it should be invoked. Even if it was VK continues to blame others for his own blocking, showing no signs of intending to change his behavior. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:12, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

VK, I recommend you admit responsibility for your own indef block. If you don't? well you see the trend at ANI. GoodDay (talk) 00:57, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * And the few users who do support unblocking you have indicated a rather elaborate set of restrictions, including a topic ban from all articles related to Irish or British politics and all articles related to The Troubles, and supervision by a mentor that will not be chosen by you. In the interest of moving the conversation forward it seems appropriate to ask if you would even agree to such restrictions as a condition of being unblocked. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:08, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, stick with the Boxing articles. Leave the political stuff to others. GoodDay (talk) 03:16, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

This editor need to be unblocked. his opponoents, who have behaved in far worse fashion, have been unblocked. What is the difference with VK? Please explain that to me.  Giacomo  11:12, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTTHEM. Rd232 talk 11:17, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't quote stupid, ridiculous essays and links to me! Explain why this is acceptable and an unblock of Vk is not? Are you even aware of the facts? I very nuch doubt it.   Giacomo   11:20, 27 December 2010 (UTC)


 * If "opponents" have "behaved in far worse fashion" then that is an argument to block or chastise them, not to unblock VK. I will support appropriate measures against "opposing" editors to minimize disruption when those are proven with diffs. Let's address that on ANI as an independent issue. This is an encyclopedia, not a boxing match. We don't need to find sparring partners.   Will Beback    talk    11:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Get hold of Alison then, and ask her for some explanations of her behaviour here, I am enjoying a pleasant and relaxed holiday, to which I am hurriedly returning, and leaving the sleezy mire of hypocrisy which I have found here while looking in briefly. Disgraceful and disgusting exhibition of double standards. I have never seen such gross hyppocrisy from so called admins here before.  Giacomo   11:28, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Um, is "hypocrisy" aimed at me? You realise I had no involvement with the unblock of Counter-revolutionary? Also, I think this is another instance where supporters of an editor vocally and even aggressively trying to defend them in their absence is, if anything, counter-productive. If VK makes a serious unblock request (which you're welcome to help him formulate), that would merit lengthy discussion. Discussing the now-declined request this much merely prejudices any future request. Rd232 talk 11:36, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh, it's Giacomo. Everything he disagrees with is proof of Wikipedia's moral decline & hypocrisy. Best to just ignore him. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 15:24, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You know what would be totally awesome? If we used Vintagekits' talk page to talk to and about Vintagekits, and not each other! Vintagekits, there are three audiences that will be reviewing your block request. People who know you and are inclined to help you out, people who know you and are disinclined to help you out, and people who don't know you at all. If you even appear to place any of the blame for your block on someone else's shoulders, that last group will not help you. Its just the way it is around here.--Tznkai (talk) 18:20, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * With unblock requests worded like the one under discussion here, standard procedure is to decline the request. If he's serious about being unblocked, he is free to submit a properly-worded unblock request. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

p.s. apologies for the shoddy original unblock request, one would think that with all my experience that I would know what the correct procedure was, however I am obviously out of practice.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:22, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Far from ignoring the multitude of reason for my various blocks I am fully aware of them and hence the reason I left it over a year before requesting an unblock. My indefinate block was ushered through on the back of a bandwagon whilst half the world slept. When the remainder of the world awoke they were basically told it was too late.
 * Do I acknowledge and repent for my past poor action? Like I say I am fully aware of the reasons I got into trouble on here and have no intention to repeat that.
 * Do I understand what I have been blocked for, yes. But I also understand that there are a group of editors that wanted me off wiki for over a year prior to my unblock and were happy to orcastrate a posse to ensure I was banished and many have shown their faces here already. Things have changed in my life, probably the biggest set of changes a person can go through. I approach things different these days and have no desire to engage in the confrontational encounters with those editors in futures - nor do I have the time to obesse about the same issues either.
 * will I not continue to cause damage or disruption to the project. Most certainly not. I feel that a spell of over a year out of the project without whining or whinging or evasion is enough to prove what I have said above is true.
 * will make useful contributions instead? Thats what I am hee for. Will I disagree with people, I am sure I will but the more opposing voices on wiki the better - its how you go about solving those issues is the main thing. Thats about it I think. If anyone has any comments or queries I would be happy to answer them.
 * Well that sounds a little more like an unblock request, though you should probably address the old User talk:Vintagekits/terms specifically since that came up in the recent ANI discussion. When you're ready, use the appropriate unblock request template, and someone should then start a new thread on WP:AN. Unfortunately the starting of an ANI discussion in relation to your recent request may have poisoned the well a bit, so you may have to work extra hard to convince people to have you back. Rd232 talk 18:06, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * A friendly word of advice: In such an unblock request, don't say anything about other editors. It will, for sure, result in an "unblock declined". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:12, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I think what's being sought, is an apology for being un-civil (the colour languages on talkpages) & prior to your indef-block, the usage of socks. Plus a promise to do neither again. GoodDay (talk) 19:11, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The second time VK was blocked for incivility, back in February 2007, he solemnly promised to "avoid comments that even could come close to being perceived as attacks or incivility". He's been blocked 20 times for personal attacks since then, not to mention the edit warring blocks. Following many of those blocks he's promised to reform. But he is who he is, and at this point it'd be foolish to assume he's capable of change, no matter how sincere his promises may be. See The Scorpion and the Frog.    Will Beback    talk    08:07, 29 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Why the fuck should VK apologise for the "usage of socks"? When was the last time he socked? It certainly wasn't anything to do with his last block was it? VK has certainly got it half right though, you only have to look at the history of the now disgraced admin who blocked him last time, who clearly had it in for VK to such an extent that he was busy gathering villagers with pitchforks to ban VK while ignoring that the article that caused the problems had a BLP violation in that his death was completely unsourced! And isn't it funny how two things I've taken to ANI recently have had little to no input, the no input being an IP editor who violates BLP with virtually every single edit they make. But VK posts an unblock on what should be a quiet day of the year and people are there in the blink of an eye, it would seem keeping VK off Wikipedia is far more important than upholing BLP round here... 2 lines of K  303  13:12, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Why should he? Well, how badly does he want to edit? Editing here is a privilege, not a right. And blaming others for getting blocked will accomplish nothing, so I'm trying to imagine how your comments are likely to help the blockee in this case. As to the other items you mention, I'll take a look, but IP's can't be given lengthy blocks except in limited circumstances. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:22, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh just grovel to them VK, crawl on your hands and knees shouting "I'm nout but a thick bog peasant, please kind sirs let me edit, I'll be ever so good and brown my nose" I rather think that is what is required. Were you pretending to be a fine upstanding English gentleman, then of course you would be aplauded and welcomed back, even if you had been "abusing multiple accounts and using threatening behaviour" all behaviour seemingly taught on the playing fields of Eton. It looks to me like you are perceived to be the wrong nationality and type.  Giacomo   13:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * How badly does he want to edit? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * About as badly as User:Counter-revolutionary, one of his old prime-agressors, who has just been welomed back after a two year block for all forms of deporable behaviour. It seems there is one rule for the Brits and one for the Irish.  Giacomo   13:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeh, a lot of us Yanks have it in for the Irish while we love the British (guess which one we fought two wars against). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:58, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh I had no idea, that decisions solely up to you "Yanks." I thought this was an internationally collaborative project. Silly me.  Giacomo   14:31, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * And how does a baseless accusation of anti-Irish bias aid in that collaboration? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The unblock of the other user looks questionable, and you're free to follow the guy's edits and see if he misbehaves, and then take it to the admins. None of that has anything to do with O'Vintagekits, though. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:06, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I support Vintagekits return to productive contributing. Under some restrictions perhaps for a couple of months to help him settle back in and on a short rope as regards rudeness to other contributors, all he has to do is to be polite or be blocked again. Off2riorob (talk) 14:19, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That seems fair, provided he stops playing the "look what you made me do" game. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

To focus on socking is a red herring. Yes, Vk has socked before—persistently—but there is nothing to suggest he has done so during the length on this block, despite ample time and opportunity to do so. Expecting (or demanding) an apology for socking is both pointless and punitive. Giano has a point beneath the nationalist spin: every block should be reviewed in the context of the reasons for the block, not other sundry past crimes.

Vk seems to have addressed the reasons for his block on the second attempt. But, in my opinion, a major concern remains: denial of responsibility ("The actually block was malicious in the first place", "there are a group of editors that wanted me off wiki for over a year prior to my unblock and were happy to orcastrate a posse to ensure I was banished"). If you don't demonstrate that you appreciate why your actions led to a block (and instead blame the actions of others) its unlikely you can make the judgments required to avoid making the same comments in future. My reading of both requests is that Vk believes he was blocked unfairly by a conspiracy of others. Only if the community accepts this should he be unblocked. Rockpock e  t  14:51, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I dont really want to focus on this as it is exactly the type of negativity that I want to avoid but do you agree that there are a band (orcastrated or not) who would not wish to see my return to wiki no matter what I said. Lets not kid ourselves here eh!--Vintagekits (talk) 19:22, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I expect there are editors that consider your bridges well and truly burnt, and no matter what you say now will be unlikely to support your unblocking. But you might consider why some people feel that way (hint: the 31 prior blocks may have something to do with it) and instead try to convince those who are willing to give you another chance that you know how to avoid reaching 32. Rockpock  e  t  21:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you Rockpocket, I think we will both agree that VK was a thorn in many sides and I will conceed that when in drink he could be objectionable. However, as he says "Things have changed in my life, probably the biggest set of changes a person can go through. I approach things different these days and have no desire to engage in the confrontational encounters with those editors in futures." I know that his RL responsibilities have increased and with them his sense of responsibility. Does one punish the adult for the sins of the child? returning to that punishment, the reasons many were unhapy with his block was becase it was most defiitely as VK says hurriedly "ushered through on the back of a bandwagon whilst half the world slept." I have never before or since seen such a hurried indeff, in one time zone. Regardless of if you like it or not, VK was indeffed while Ireland was asleep. Now that his old adversaris are all unblocked, My view is that comon justice demands the lifting of this block.  Giacomo   17:25, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * But irrespective of whether the indef was hurried through or not, the fact remains that there was a good reason the initial block was placed. Few, if any, of the editors who argued against the nature of the indef took issue with that. Vk-with-added-responsibilities said he would be happy to answer queries. So I have four before offering an opinion on the merits of his request.
 * Do you think it is acceptable to refer to another editor, completely unprovoked, as a "fucking arsehole" or an "ego maniac"?
 * Should editors who repeatedly or persistently use bilious language in personal attacks or in reference to other editors be welcome in our community?
 * Pursuant to your answer above, why?
 * If you were unblocked and used such language again in reference to another editor, should this block be immediately reinstated?
 * Thanks, Rockpock  e  t  17:09, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear: I support having Vk's indef block lifted, therefore I aint requesting anything from VK in his unblock request. I merely observed about the kind of unblock request he'll need, to get the community to support his unblock. GoodDay (talk) 18:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

You're doing fine Vk. Remaining patient, no foul language usage, no socking. Such an approach helps & I believe at some point in 2011, you'll be unblocked. GoodDay (talk) 14:27, 31 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's the problem: At the recent ANI discussion, most users were opposed to you being unblocked. The few that did support unblocking you did so on the condition that you restrict yourself from editing British and Irish political articles, broadly construed, and that you accept an appointed mentor. I asked above if you would be willing to agree to these conditions and I don't see an answer anywhere. You have a few more supporters here now, but another discussion will be warranted if we are to seriously consider unblocking you. I don't see any point to initiating said discussion until you indicate whether or not you would be willing to accept such restrictions. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:45, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's quite apparent (at the moment) that if/when Vk is unblocked, another ANI community review will occur. GoodDay (talk) 21:15, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * the problem with that is, were similar restrictions imposed on his adversaries who behaved in far worse fashion and who are now unblocked after similar blocks - are you seeking to bias the Troubles debates and pages?  Giacomo   20:57, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Giano, your backhanded accusation of bad faith is really not going to help the situation. I'm sure you are aware of WP:NOTTHEM. I'm not saying VK has to agree to these terms, I'm saying he should answer the querstion of whether he would be willing to agree to them or not. If the answer is no, then we know before re-starting the discussion that that particular option is off the table. That's all, there is no conspiracy, just a simple request for clarification of a point that has already come up in these discussions. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:23, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't quote these ridiculous WP-THINGS to me because I never read them as they are usually written by Admins atemptimg to justify their own bad behaviour. I can assure you I meant nothing "backhanded," in fact, my meaning was quite obvious. You have allowed back his adversaries (who committed worse "crimes") without a murmer of dissent; now, just get on and unblock VK who has, unlike them, promised to mend his ways. It's begining to look like a huge bias.  Giacomo   21:33, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't personally allowed anyone back in. I don't even know who you are talking about and I don't care to find out either. We are discussing VKs possible unblock. Some other user being unblocked by some other admin is a separate matter, and has abcolutely nothing to do with the simple question I am asking for an answer to. This bias you speak of, as it applies to me anyway, is purely a product of your imagination. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If you have not bothered to avail yourself of the facts pertenent to this case perhaps you sould not be commenting here at all. Such ignorance is worryingly common amongst Admins keen to have their names seen here, there and everywhere.  Giacomo   21:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I have to wonder, at this point, if Giaco is actually trying to sabotage VK's attempt to get unblocked. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:50, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Your wonderings are of very little value.  Giacomo   21:57, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * My comments are every bit as valuable as yours. But thanks for the non-denial denial :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:06, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This entire conversation is of little value at this point, all I wanted was a simple yes or no answer to a question, and you have decided to drag imaginary nationalist conspiracies into it. I don't care one bit if VK is Irish, English, Iranian, Australian, Navajo, Greek, Albanian, etc. I'll have you know I'm half Irish Catholic myself, so if anything I would be more inclined to be biased in his favor. Now, if we could just let this non-issue alone and give VK a chance to answer the question with either a yes or a no that would be super. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:03, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Giano - who are these "adversaries who behaved in far worse fashion and who are now unblocked after similar blocks" because I'm really not seeing them? I hope that's not a reference to Counter-rev, as he was 1) neither Sussexman nor David Lauder, both of whom are still well and truly blocked and 2) was never as abusive as VintageKits was in his prime. See my talk page where I went over that already during the week - A l is o n  ❤ 10:19, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I see, so WJBscribe was lying/grossly exagerating here: "19:26, 1 July 2008 WJBscribe (talk | contribs) blocked Counter-revolutionary (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (abusing multiple accounts, threatening behaviour)" and that well known upstanding paragon of Wiki virtue Rlevse (renamed as Vanquished on VK's block log) was mreley upholding the sacred Wiki after the disgraceful night of dirty knives when North America hurriedly sent VK packing while Ireland slept - I hope you are proud of that in North America! One only has to look at the names on his block log  to see what was happenng a combination of monumantal and engineered ignorance. You Alison, released Counter-revolutionary from his cage in time for the 2010 election after asking for few if any reasurrances of futire behaviour. Yet, when VK wants similarly releasing all hell breaks loose as the drones march out to comment, clearly (as Beeblebrox admits) with mot a clue about that which they are comenting on. I find this all very odd indeed. I am delighted that VK states he is a reformed charactor and hope he has the chance to prove that - a great pity you did not require similar assurances from CR.   Giacomo   11:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Please cease posting comments to this thread in the recent nationalist-battleground and what-about-that-guy vein. You clearly support VK's unblock, but your efforts are counterproductive to that aim and you seem unable to recognise that (as I said before, if you have current issues with other editors, then pursue DR as appropriate). My expectation is that VK will address the issue of whether he would accept the previous unblock terms and why they would work this time (with the hope that successfully respecting them would later give some chance of them being lifted) or else make the best case he can why he should be given the chance to show that such terms aren't necessary now. Then we can have another AN thread, where I don't rate his chances in the near future, but with a good enough effort, who knows. At any rate, there's no other way back, and you're not helping - quite the opposite. Rd232 talk 13:02, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you all hate haveing the nationalistic overtones of this debate brought out into the open, but there are no other conclusions one can draw? Bad behaviour hapened on both sides, yet only one side continues to be punished - or have you just unblocked VK? Oh and will you all please stop quoting these stupid WP-things at me, all written by yourselves. Either behave fairly or be quite yourself.  Giacomo   13:38, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Any more of this nonsense and I'll page ban you from here, mostly for VK's benefit but also for your own. Rd232 talk 15:29, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, he's still blocked. Your reverse-psychology strategy worked. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:05, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

The few that did support unblocking you did so on the condition that you restrict yourself from editing British and Irish political articles, broadly construed, and that you accept an appointed mentor...Would you be willing to accept such a condition? I am unsure but I imagine such a condition would not be indefinite but perhaps for say six months or until the community could see you moving forward in a collaborative manner and a measure of trust and support was there to lift the restriction.Off2riorob (talk) 13:49, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * - the question to Vintagekits ....
 * Agree - address that, VK, or else make the best case you can why you should be given the chance to show that such terms aren't necessary now. Then we can have another AN thread and see where we stand. Rd232 talk 15:32, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * that conditionality wouldnt annoy me to be honest. I think people will be surprised with how I handle my self from now on so I would have no objection to a restriction like that.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:13, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * IMHO, an AN or ANI report/thread shouldn't be opened until Vk's unblocked. GoodDay (talk) 15:34, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * VK shouldn't be unblocked until the community has agreed to removal of the effective community ban. Rd232 talk 16:05, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops, I forgot, it was a community ban. GoodDay (talk) 16:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Bringing it up again at ANI could result in disappointment for VK, but could also be the fair thing to do, as the worst the group is likely to do is say "No" again. Just make sure you-know-who doesn't put his oar in and gum up the works for VK. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:51, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I find it fairly hard to take this process serious, especially considering the CR episode. My first unblock request was largely rejeced out oof hand because I didnt explain myself and then I did in the second and it was rejected because it was "too soon". Whats a guy gotta do?--Vintagekits (talk) 17:13, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Be patienet. Remember, there's alot of editors out there, who still don't trust you & aren't quick to forgive your past behaviour. GoodDay (talk) 17:20, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Make a third one. You've explained yourself better, and as it seems you're willing to accept the terms, it seems reasonable to now discuss an unblock at AN. I think the "too soon" issue may have been because at that point you hadn't addressed the terms, and now you have I wouldn't expect it to happen again. (And if it does, I'm happy to start an AN thread anyway.) Rd232 talk 17:48, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As per the above, you have explained your position and alluded to your understanding of why you were restricted and you have offered and accepted the possible restrictions such as mentor and topic restriction, so moving forward and with this in mind your offer and request is worth presenting to the community, although I am sure you know there is no guarantee, if you are serious I suggest you present the new situation in an unblock template for community consideration. Off2riorob (talk) 19:17, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Disclosure; I'm half Irish, so maybe I empathize a bit too much, but I suggest you try again right away(apppears to me you have a bit of positive momentum right now) and if anybody who might be Christian throws up the "31 blocks" objection, just remind them, especially at this time of year, that 31 is not [490]. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 16:01, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Unblock Request - Take III

 * You might want to fix the spelling errors and also clarify the "not...not" statement. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:16, 2 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Chuck in a bit about your agreement to being sanctioned from the British & Irish political areas of Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 15:28, 2 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Bit disappointing, VK - you just copied and pasted Take II without even reading carefully enough to find obvious spelling mistakes, never mind address the points discussed after Take II. This might easily look a bit cavalier to some, which seems silly when you're trying to convince people. Try and fix the issues mentioned before anything else happens. Rd232 talk 14:47, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * 'Cavalier' - do you agree with the rationale behind the closing of 'Take II'. By the way, my spelling is always terrible. It always has been, it always will be. If you find that offensive then I can only apologies. --Vintagekits (talk) 19:06, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, that response robs me of any remaining desire to help you. I wash my hands of this. Rd232 talk 21:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I almost closed this one out of hand, thinking it a duplicate of the previous one. Which it is... UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 14:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * What more would you like to see in this request?--Vintagekits (talk) 19:06, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * What do you think are the reasons you got into trouble here? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  19:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Many because I was reeled in by dishonest people. What about you?--Vintagekits (talk) 19:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * What were you blocked for? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  19:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's all set about in my block log and the above discussions.--Vintagekits (talk) 19:51, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Do YOU understand what you were blocked for? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  19:53, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Now now KB, have a bit of manners when you are on my talkpage. Its not like you have showered yourself in glory when you have been here before. I'll answer your question with a question. Have you read my unblock request?--Vintagekits (talk) 20:00, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have. And I don't believe your reasons for requesting an unblock. You were on a final final chance and you blew it out of the water. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  20:14, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think you realise Kittybrewster, that it is your friends who have largley caused the problem which VK has had. However, I'm sure all concerned are noticing, that VK is behaving with maturity and gravitas and not rising to your bait, so perhaps a little introspection would be beneficial for you.  Giacomo   21:11, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed you are right; I don't realise that my friends (whatever that means) have largely caused VK's problem. Nor do I think VK has begun to make clear that he is responsible. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  21:29, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Whatever makes you happy Kittybrewster can only be applauded. However, I don't think you will find than VK or indeed anyone other eager to respond to yout trolling here. Good evening.  Giacomo   21:32, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I was about ready to read yet another attempt by Giaco to sabotage VK's comeback attempt, but VK seems to have done a good job sabotaging himself this time. I can only conclude that he really, really does not want to edit on wikipedia. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→

Folks, this bickering is pointless. Whatever anyone's view of the unblock request, it's going to need an ANI discussion to consider it, and a finger-pointing exercise here does not nothing to assist anyone. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:05, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I was ready to log a "support unblock", but it's clear he's not serious, so forget it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Just a courtesy notice that I have asked at WP:AN for a previously uninvolved admin to come deal with this, it has obviously dragged on far too long. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:14, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Userpage
The userpage should be changed to indef block, as that's what VK's status currently is. He's certainly not retired. GoodDay (talk) 02:14, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * True though that may be, is it really that big of a deal? Anyone can see from this page that the "retirement" was not voluntary. In short you are correct but it is hardly the most pressing issue here. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:36, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's just illogical to keep thate retirement tag, when that's not the situation. GoodDay (talk) 02:46, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree completely. I just don't see it as a pressing problem. There has already been a slo-mo edit war over this for over a year, and it's still there. There are things that are worth fighting for and things that are not. I suggest this falls into the "not" category. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:46, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I changed it to indefblocked yesterday, especially since consensus was formed at AN/I that he's blocked indefinitely, but I was reverted out of hand by his friend. As usual, on Wikipedia, it's not about what you do but who you know. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:30, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not worth edit-warring over. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:42, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Nothing ever is.--Tznkai (talk) 02:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry you feel you have been treated unfairly, there have been several community discussions wherein a clear consensus was established that you should remain blocked. Emailing me as if this was all my doing isn't going to change that one bit. You may contact WP:BASC if you want to appeal this any further, I'd appreciate it if you did not email me any further regarding this as I couldn't override the community's decision even if I wanted to. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:42, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

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Clarification motion
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Happy New Year
Hi VK, I just thought I’d drop by to wish you a prosperous New Year and say it would be nice to see a little more of you around the place. That’s assuming, of course, I’m not already seeing you and am too stupid to realise it. Be happy! Giano   (talk) 22:03, 28 December 2019 (UTC)