User talk:Voltigeur/Archive 2

Nathaniel Higginson
Do have a look at this - Nathaniel Higginson. Till recently, it was believed that Elihu Yale was the only Governor of Madras who was born in Colonial America. The articles are sourced from this book:

From Harish
There are a lot of different stories and legends. The problem is being very imaginative people vadama and a community of early interaction with British, I dont trust the vadama legends. For one they are capable of inventing theories and believing themselves that these theories are tru. Of course this may not be an exclusive vadama trait.

One of the things which you are missing here, is the regular movements of vadamas within regions in south. It is not straight forward down or move up, its up and down, up and down. This becomes eay to understand if you assume that they were a much more resourceful and opportunistic people than others, this is not baseless condering even the modern age. Vadama are always wanting to do something new. The problem is they did this with religion as well. There is a story on Appaish deekshirat, i belive he wrote a commentory on Mahabharata and Ramayana where he tries to prove that Rama was an avatar of Shiva.

Anyway regarding vadama, brahacharanam gossips there are plenty , they may not be any evidence of any reality. one is the accusation, that vadama did not believe in adi shankaracharya's philosophy to start with and brahacharanam were the original dilligent followers of shankara. another is they were spearheading the jain movements in north tamil nadu in pre shankaran times. Basically my observation is that vadama may have been very smart people, but they were very materialistic. This can be noticed even today, when I have seen vadama always chasing career at the cost of personal life and ritual values.I notice that there are many vadama iyer women who go to good universities in India and abroad, but fall to habits like drinking- we have the other extreme in vadama too.its very complex i guess. I vaidika brahmin in ap about dravidlu - they are smart people, but i rate our velanadu better - we are more satvic,simple and self content on the other hand dravidlu want to retain tradition but also want to get all materialic success and money and fame.

Check up the brahmins of trayambakeshwar, some ancient brahmins of trayamabakeshway near nasik have close links with vadama. The puzzling thing for me is that,vadama are supposed to be related to deshastha, but deshastha dont have sama vedis, whereas vadadesha vadama from nasik region are sama vedis with two prominent gotra - bharadwaja and koushika.The only people in maharashtra and gujarat put together with lot of sama vedis is chitpavans who dont obviously belong to the same stock as vadamas. Also the vadama appearance is not deshastha, so that is why I am strong in my belief that something has happened much more than 700  years ago-  which you mention. I see the whole landscape in maharashtra and gujarat changed. Check this out http://www.maharashtra.gov.in/pdf/gazeetter_reprint/Satara/people_hindus.html These dravids are not explicitly mentioned as vadamas but as you will read and infer dravid's biography that dravids were vadamas. The same as in andhra. But they aere given a high respect which means for certain that they had no links with chitapavans or practices non brahmin professions such as ruling kingdoms. The chitpavans were at that time considered low brahmins because of their origin and profession.

pardon for spell errors, just wanted to send you this quickly. hope it makes sense. :)

== From Harish

I am very well aware of what is said there in the satara website:)

But dear friend, read below that the same article mentions they were saivaites. Now that means the subsect divsion among them is not clear. What I was more interested in was the title.\ With regard to subcaste we have to look for other evidences, and that is why I did not quote this website as proof. Please read Vedam Jaishankar's biography and come back. Unless appiah deekshitar's descendants have two sub castes.

Lets come back to the dates, as I said one cannot use an x,y,z website to say that p.q,r came ton so and so date. What is the source of Information, that website has? While subcaste is real and living, dates are buried and we cannot loosely give any dates.

While for the pre 9 th century. I am careful, I dont use centuries like you do, because I know I am in a grey area. I only quoted atha pati kathai to you about preshankaran arguments and therefore carefully did not include them in wikipedia.

For the rest it is more funny about how you could be so obsessed with 13 century. I dont think I can keep up your pace of scanning this link all my life, because I consider time more valuable. But its ridiculous that you on the one hand seek proof for my statement, and what i the real  proof you have for your statement. Did you visit any of the early vadama villages and did you see any kind of evidence in the form of grants from king which throws a hint on the day of their arrival. That vadamas have come from outside tamil nadu is more than obvious. You want to so carefully overlook evidences on their names appearing in sangam literature. You want to cleverly reduce the significance of ramanuja's legend where he and all his relatives and all his journeys take place only in tamil nadu and mysore region. If his ancestors had only recently come to tamil nadu, there surely would have been interaction with scholars in his native region as well. We would clearly have seen his nativity recorded in sri vaishnava literature. Forvget about him, so many other vadamas and great vadakalai are mentioned in sri vaishnava literature. Who among them, who is also known to be a vadama, has been recorded to have originated outside tamil nadu.

Lets come to the origin of 13 century. I cannot accept your argument that they had come in 13 century,not because there was no disturbance during that period. but we know already people who had come south from that period onwards- sourashtraian brahmins, whom the vadama will never marry even if they marry vathima. Now I never said vadama were related to chitpavan. I said just to the contrary and I said chitpavan are the only major sama vedis in that region, who are clearly not vadama. Moreover vadama facila features do not coincide with deshastha as well. I said the landscape had completely changed. Dear, not all places in Maharashtra and gujarat were destroyed and totally islamized, that the old people there left it completely. I would like to see a proto vadama in the 13 century at the place you say they have come from. Either their place of origin is wrong or time of origin is wrong. If you say, neither of it is wrong, you still have the burden of proof.

Now why do people keep saying 13 century. Possible reasons 1. Its the truth, but is it widespread enough to be considered as truth?, without a shred of historical evidence supporting it. Had it been truth, not only vadadesha vadama but lot of others would have kept repeating 13 century as the date of origin of vadama. And the community would have held this to be a popular opinion- which is unfortunatey the case.

2. Its based on another legend which was mixed up with vadamas. The story you read are of the vishwakarma brahmins or whatever, those who call themselves vishwakarma. They along with saurashtrian brahmins are really associated with this legend, and as some vadamas in later age read the story of migration of brahmins, because of muslim attack they immediatly feel connected with it.I am more convinced of association with saurashtra with saurashtra legend,

3. Partly true in the sense some vadamas have migrated after muslim conquest, but the dates have been mixed up with saurashtrian brahmins. I dont discount this either.

4. Complete rumours - I myself dont agree with this :)

You want evidences from me, but do you apart from website quotations (who themselves dont speciy source) and some books and historical accounts with no significance. When pointed out that dravidlu in andhra could have come anywhere between 300 to 600 years ago to andhra, you push up the date to 18 th century.

I think its better that you start your own website propagating your pet theories. Some foolish person will quote your website to include them as real records in wikipedia. This will not do.

I have nothing against you, but as I said, I am the one who started this entire section vadama,and I dont want the article to be runied by theories which are quite unprovable, at this point of time. If what you say, is thr truth, please provide a suitable evidence. Evidence is needed both in tamil nadu and nasik or sourashtra, whichever place you like ! Then I am only too happy to include your favorite 13 century  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 02:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Please Quote regarding Dravid Brahmins of Aandhra
I have no objection to your edit on Dravida Brahmins of Andhra, if you can quote from the actual reference book published in 1935, prove that this is not the only source of Information.

1. That the 13 century date is a widely accepted date among dravid brahmins of andhra 2. That there is proof more than a community's self perception about that date.

You may then use your appropraite language

I will be quoting the book that was used as a source of reference, as mentioned in the website as you cunningly refuse to acknowledge the original source of Information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 15:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Lets keep a reference of both the website and the book. Some one with more familiarity on this subject will be able to later validate this, which is unlikely (I have lived in AP, so I am aware), the dravidlu being a very well educated community are not only intermarrying with other telugu brahmins such as vaidikulu and even niyogis, but they are also inter marrying with marwadis and other communities completeley unrelated to brahmins. I am however not sure if the original book is avilable anywhere. Also it is such a pity if websites die down in future. There would ne no source of reference if book is not mentioned. As I said earlier, I am not in a war with you. I have no issues with 13 century dates if we can provide suitable evidence, but I dont want that date to be listed in a way, which would make unassuming and not so knowledgable readers, to interpret that these statements are proven and true. The article is not older than a few years, so I am sure we will be seeing more evidence coming up in the future. I have already written an email to a dravidlu scholar,lets wait for response, if he has any good book for evidence and better even, a historical record. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 15:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Vadama
Not at all. Blogs may contain the creator's POV and are strictly prohibited. Only published or peer-reviewed sources are regarded as reliable. It does not cover blogs. - Ravichandar My coffee shop 16:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Vyaghradhataki
Hullo, how are you? Vyaghradhataki has threatened to report us to the FBI :-). Have a look at this:. More funnier is the fact that he accuses me of spreading misinformation through Vadama article while I've made only 3 edits in all in the article (2 were taggings and the other one was the removal of Rahul Dravid's name from that list).- Ravichandar My coffee shop 16:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Dravida
Have a look at the new changes in vadama, in light of an important discovery on dravida brahmins of andhra. As I, and probably you, suspected earlier, dravida brahmins are not necessarily vadama, even though they include them, and moreover the people in question are aaramadravidlu and I have no clue if they were vadamas. The reference is thurston's book on Castes and Tribes of South India where he mentions that pudur dravida as brahacharanam. This is just one of the different dravidlu sects in andra. The irony, is that, atleast in recent times I have heard of no taboos in the intermarriage between different dravidas of andhra.

--Harishpsubramanian (talk) 21:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Pudur Dravida - by Yagneshwar Sreekanth
PudurDraida Community Origin

''There are many versions regarding our Origin and migration. But the most popular and available version is by "Sri Vedam Venkataraya Sastry" in his book on PD's after a lot or research. I am providing some relevant information from that.''

As per the information given in the “Article” written by Sree Vedam Venkataraya Sastry garu (BABA), grand son of the grate Maha Mahopadhyaya Sree Vedam Venkataraya Sastry garu (SENIOR) and published in the month of July,1978, the following matter is available:

1) He has written an essay earlier for ‘VIKRAMA SIMHAPURI (NELLORE) MANDALA SARVASVAM’ and it was published in 1963.

2) Pudur Dravidians talk Tamil in their houses, but they limit it’s usage to the house, but for all day to day affairs they adopt the language of the place where they live. They have contributed a lot to Telugu Literature.

3) Long back Four meetings of “ Pudur Dravida Brahamins” were conducted. Amongst them one was presided by Maha Mahopadhyaya Vedam Venkataraya Sastry {senior}, for another Sri Vajjala Raghunadha Sastry and for the Fourth one which was conducted in the month of May, 1920 was presided by Sri Chadalawada Sundara Rama Sastry garu. In between for the third one, there is no information about who presided that meeting.

4) There is no authenticated or written information, reason and how the name of PUDUR DRAVIDIANS has come.

5) As it came from age old here-say evidence, felt, belief, usage –That our fore fathers hailed from southeren parts of the then Tamil Nadu. Our fore fathers used to live in an Agraharam called “KANDRA MANIKYAM”. This place belonged to Tanjore District, Kumbha Konam (Kumbheswara Puram) and might have been nearer to it. Even now among Dravida Brahmins living in that region”KANDRAMANIKYA BRUHACHHARANAM” a sect is prevailing.

6) Normally persons belonging to Kandramanikya Bruhachharanam sect were Scholors, Veda experts, Thaponidhis, Agama kovidas etc., They were all honoured by the kings of that time.

7) There are five divisions among the Dravidians migrated from Tamilnadu in those times to Telugunadu: they are Pudur, Thumma gunta, Konaseema(Peruru}, Dhimiri and Arama.

8) In Nellore region Pudur and Thummagunta Dravidians are more, whereas both from Godavari and Visakhapatnam other three are living.

9) Due to local adoptions, living conditions and several other reasons among Konaseema, Dhimiri and Arama dravidas more Andhra (telugu) Brahmins culture has crept in and almost they forgot their Tamil language.

10) Pudur is a small village near Naidupet and Thummagunta is a village near Nellore.

11) Pudur and Thummagunta Dravidas has more similiarities in their Havana cultures, rituals, marriage and certain other ceremonies.

12) In southeren Tamilnadu many do not have “House Names” {Inti perulu} whereas PD’s have this in usage.

13) PUDUR can be split as PUDU [new in tamil] and VUR [place/village in tamil]. It shows that initially when they have migrated they kept this name as they do not have knowledge of Telugu at that point of time and they named it as per their Tamil language.

14) To know the time of migration some attempts are made and they are depending on several facts. A lot of research has to be done in this regard to arrive at a probable and correct time. History was not written in that angle. We have to depend on various factors, happenings, revenue records, inscriptions, daana sasanams, literature etc., etc.,

15) The author quoted that Chadalawada Sundararama Sastry in his speech in the year 1920 felt that the migration might have been a thousand years earlier.

16) Normally in Tamilnadu “SOLOR SYSTEM” is used in Panchangam{Almolnoc} and “LUNAR SYSTEM” by Andhra Telugu people. PD’s are now following Lunar system means a lot of time should have taken for change-over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.137.86 (talk) 11:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Portrayal in popular media
Hi! How are you? :-) Well, could you help with the section on Portrayal in popular media. I'll be extremely busy in the forthcoming days and I don't have enough time to perform a detailed research. As for the rest of the article, they've come up pretty good. :-) If this section is completed, we could have a couple of revisions, then a peer review and then finally, a featured article nominaton :-)

I guess three sections would be alright.

* In print media (involving novels, books, magazines and newspapers) * In films * In dramas and television serials * In print media (involving novels, books, magazines and newspapers) * In films * In dramas and television serials - Ravichandar My coffee shop 22:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Positive portrayal
 * Negative portrayal


 * Thank you very much :-) Well, I created that section as I had a strange feeling that the "article is not yet complete", but I now feel that I've committed a big mistake cause I cannot complete it. I cannot find enough reliable sources about anti-Brahmanaical literature and films on the internet. Well, I suppose that there were a number of anti-Brahmin pamphlets and bills that the Dravidar Kazhagam might have issued at the height of the Self-Respect Movement but strangely I cannot find any of those on the net. I also find it extremely difficult to find archives of The Hindu,  Ananda Vikatan and Dravidar Kazhagam publications online. The Madras Law Journal seems to be the only journal whose old issues are available. Then, there are also the POV issues which might arise. I now regret having started all these. The rest of the article is almost complete and if I had not added the section on "portrayals" we could very well had a peer-review and gone for an FA-nomination. - Ravichandar My coffee shop 17:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I'll look into Vadama article when I get time. As of now, I am working to get Iyer article featured. There are also a plenty of new articles to be created. Parithimar Kalaignar does not have an article. Besides, there is very little coverage of the 1920s and 1930s and the origins of the Self-Respect Movement. Got to look into that too... Well, I will certainly look into it when I get time. As for the NPOV tag, you may very well remove it yourself.- Ravichandar My coffee shop 17:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorted out
I've sorted the thing out. I've moved the section to a new article. Well, you would find it interesting to know that I was the one who wrote the article on Sir S. Subramania Iyer.

By the way, I have requested a peer-review on Iyer article as a part of the FA-nomination process - Ravichandar My coffee shop 13:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Peer review
Hi! I've asked for a peer review. Let us see what is to come out of this review - Ravichandar My coffee shop  13:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Happy New Year 2009!!
''' Happy New Year !!!! I wish for you and your family to have a wonderful 2009!!! Have fun partying and may you make many edits!!!   - Ravichandar My coffee shop  12:26, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Greeting
Wish you a happy new year.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 20:13, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi
Hey thank you very much :-) It's great hearing from you after such a long time. Take care- Ravichandar My coffee shop 01:48, 2 January 2009 (UTC)