User talk:Vomstn

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Please also note that video sharing websites do not constitute as appropriate references as per Wikipedia policy when used in the capacity shown in your edits. Yids2010 (talk) 22:45, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I've never used "talk" page. So I hope that I use this correct....

Are you a big fan of Gary,Yids2010?

I believe that the “fact” should be written in Wikipedia.

I know that there are so many crazy fans + many old fans automatically think that the most of the songs are written by Gary. So what I have written are very controversial issues, I know. But I don’t think you can delete for ex. “in the nineties” from "in the nineties Barlow acts as the lead singer and primary songwriter".

If you see “Progress”, can you tell me how much main vocal part sings Gary? Rob and Mark said in an Interview, when TT first completed the album, all were very happy. Then suddenly they noticed that there was no single song which Gary sings main vocal in the album. So they immediately decided to let him sing the vocal part of “Eight letters”, then at least he sings one song in Progress.

About song making is also the same. “Writer’s definition can be varied, but if we consider, in conventional way, writer of lyrics and main music as songwriter, Gary wrote not much in Progress. If you hear the interviews of each Progress songs, you`ll notice that the most of songs were mainly written by Rob (Flood, Eight letters, Pretty things, Wait) and Mark (Kidz, What do you want from me, SOS). If you can`t believe, you can see, for ex. “Take That Progress Track-By-Track” series in You Tube. Gary is a great songwriter (he did a lot of backing tracks in Progress) and singer, but he doesn’t take many lead vocals and he is one of the songwriters of TT. (Maybe TT wants to show respect for Robbie as the sign of welcome, and used a lot of his songs and let him take a lead in progress. Maybe the theme of the new album which Mark has suggested, “progress, revolution …” is not the strong area for Gary to write songs???)

Anyway I if you see how it is in Progress, I believe that “Barlow acts as the lead singer and primary songwriter” is not suited for current conditions. If you can`t prove that Gary write the most of songs and take lead in Progress and Circus, you shouldn’t delete “in the nineties”.

What I wrote about song writings in TT: “3 main-songwriters in group” is what Gary and all the other members always said in interview. I don’t know why the Press and a lot of fans ignored all those statements. But I believe what TT says more than Tabloid papers and other sources. I’m surprised to hear from you that it is experimental opinion. My footnotes might be not ideal because it is from you tube. (This is my first time to use video as footnotes. When I wanted to upload in Wiki, the window shoed Wiki guidelines, but I just sent it. I know You tube is safe and those videos clearly shows/proves what I mean + many fans wants to get such info.  )  Maybe I can’t complain if you delete my footnotes but please see with your eyes what TT members say. They are http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMcrE0742fo and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJMVaCQRn3A If you see all of these and still believe what I wrote is wrong + experimental, pls come back with evidence. But please don’t say, “Because Gary is the only really talented member of Take That.”

I laughed when you write about vandalisms. But I can guess, some blinded Gary fanatic and old fans who just believe, that all are from Gary, delete everything which they don’t want to read/know without confirmation. But if it is so, this site has a big problem + it should not happen…..

Recent edits
Ok. Where to start, firstly I understand that you are acting in good faith and I am glad that you didn't violate WP:EW as it would have resulted in the temporary blocking of your account. More housework; please sign all your posts with four of these (~) and leave a post on one talk page rather than posting part of it on one and then the ending on another as you did here. One final note is to please follow WP:CIVIL when talking to Users as some suggestive language styles and accusations made (similar to the ones you have used in your post(s) to me) however briefly, discredit the work and partiality of Wikipedia. Ok, now with regard to Gary Barlow being the lead singer and vocalist of Take That. He sings lead vocal on 21 singles out of the 30 singles they have released throughout their career and performs lead duties alongside another member 4+ times in songs such as those you have mentioned, i.e. Kidz, The Flood and The Garden to name a few of them. That does not include the various B Side and album tracks he has appeared on throughout the 6 studio albums, international albums and Greatest Hits albums. None of the other members sing near to as many as Gary Barlow when combined, but as said the fact that he appears on over 2/3's of Take That's singles as the lead vocalist and then appears to sing the chorus or the bridge on other songs emphasises what is being said. Yes I have also seen the Look Back Don't Stare documentary that you refer to but you are missing the clearist point in relation to that. Gary Barlow wrote every piece of music for every song on the studio album and the Progressed release. Without sounding patronising, it is clear that without the music, there would be no lyrics to add to it and thus no song. Finally on that point, Gary Barlow sung a large and pivotal part of the vocal on The Flood, Kidz, Happy Now, Love Love and When We Were Young. So Every single that was taken off the Progress/ed era featured Gary performing a large part of the song. Further to this Robbie Williams, Mark Owen and main figures in the music industry etc have all publicly stated that Gary Barlow is the (to quote) Captain of the ship or the main man behind the song-writing as shown here and here and here and here to name just a few. The bottom line here is not that Gary is the only talented one or however eloquently you phrased it in your original post (I'm sure they are all talented), it is that he is recognised through various sources within the band themselves, the management, the music industry, the entertainment industry as the lead vocalist and primary songwriter of Take That. This is sourced. Whilst others may have a hand in a particular song at some point Gary remains the force behind it and encourages the likes of Mark and Howard (who have confirmed this many times in loads of interviews about such material) to get involved and gives them the confidence to express their ideas to each other. That is the definition of the primary songwriter. Someone who writes the music/part of or all the lyrics and then brings it to the table which is widely recognised, sourced and accepted to be the case. However that does not dismiss the writing of Mark Owen, Howard Donald etc who have hands in song creation, it is just there is no evidential and continued proof that they have had leading roles in the songwriting of albums/singles etc over a number of years or material releases. The case is not that blinded fanatics run these articles (actually the opposite in most cases), it is in fact that the articles are guarded from users who try to emphasise their own beliefs etc on invalid and inappropriate evidence or none at all. It is also not that Youtube is not safe, it is that advertisements, falsely sourced videos and various other factors can cause copyright and licensing conflicts with Wikipedia regulations so please bare that in mind. :On a final note can I just say that I appreciate your time and effort in helping edit Wikipedia articles and discussing through talk pages rather than through articles. May I please also point you in the direction of sandbox before making edits which should make it more comfortable to use. All the best, and kind regards Yids2010 (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I was very busy. Sorry that I didn’t come back earlier.

Gary is a good vocalist and song writer but he is not only a main song writer and main vocalist of new TT.

AA) First about “main vocalist”. It is clear that Gary is not a main vocalist in Progress. Pls don’t mix TT in the nineties and now. (How many singles sang Gary main vocal until now or so is irrelevant) You say because Gary sings the most of the songs, but you can’t say Gary is the main lead vocalist of songs like Kidz (obviously Mark. Pls see any live videos. Gary repeats the refrain “they’ll be trouble when kidz come out “ with all other members. In any way usually in general people don’t call the person who repeats this short refrain as a main vocalist), Flood (Rob is main vocal. Gary sings 2 x 18 seconds alone. That is also too short to be called as main vocalist) and so on. If you say the lead singer means the person sings only some main melodies or a lot of backing vocal, and then Howard is also a main lead singer of TT as he sings a lot of backing vocals.…. I’m afraid to say your argument is very bias. If main vocalist means, the singer who sings the main melodies of the songs alone, as Mark and Rob said, in Progress Gary sang only one song, “Eight letters” as a main vocalist. In Circus Gary takes lead vocal of 4 songs (I count “said it all” as Gary’s main vocal although Mark sings highest point alone) and Mark takes lead of 4 songs. I’m sure that Gary is very important main vocalist of TT but I don’t think it is correct if we can call Gary alone as a primary lead singer of TT

BB) About song writing.

You wrote “Gary Barlow wrote every piece of music for every song on the studio album and the Progressed release + he is recognized through various sources within the band themselves, the management, the music industry, the entertainment industry as the lead vocalist and primary songwriter of Take That”.

You are completely wrong. Gary didn`t write every piece of music for every song. You should see his interviews which I mention later and confirm how they make songs. You should also know official writers of all TT songs after the reunion is Take That. Not Gary alone. You showed following 4 examples as a backup evidence to prove Gary as main songwriters of TT, but all these articles say only followings and don’t say “Gary wrote the most of or all the songs of TT” at all + They are irrelevant.

1.	Rob called Gary "I call him my captain. To you – Mr. Gary Barlow.” ??? So what? 2.	Gary Team up with Andrew Lloyd Webber. ?? He worked with A Webber. So what? 3.	Nicky Wire said that Gary is genius as he impressed with Patience and .believes it was about time Barlow got the credit his lush songwriting deserves. (This is one person’s opinion. I think the article is written when Patience was released as the first single of TT after re-united. He could have said as Gary was clearly.a main song writer of  TT in the nineties. It said nothing more. Official writer of Patience is “TT and John Shanks.” So I’m not sure who contribute how much but clearly Gary is not an only writer of the song.) 4.	The article used an expression “TAKE THAT mastermind GARY BARLOW” ?? One article uses the word “mastermind” for Gary, but says nothing more. What is relevant to songwriting issue?

If these are the reason why you believe that all the songs are written by Gary, you don’t have any evidence to prove your argument and completely use wrong sources to enforce your personal opinion.

You say "Gary remains the force behind it and encourages the likes of other members to get involved and gives them the confidence to express their ideas to each other. That is the definition of the primary songwriter." No. This kind of job is not be called as "primary song writer."!! This is the qualification of good team leader.

Have you seen the videos/interviews which I wrote? Gary's idea of song writer is quite different from you. As Gary and other members always say, he said in the following videos that there are 2 main song writers for TT4 and 3 for TT5. I’ll write down what they are saying in the interviews.

In the interviews just after releasing “Circus” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMcrE0742fo Gary said in this interview that he wants to write songs with TT from the beginning because he believes that it brings better results than he does alone. He started this song writing style especially after he wrote “Rule the world” together from the beginning with other members and impressed with what this collaboration brought.

All TT members think TT4 has 2 main songwriters: for ex. In this interview according to Jay main song writers of TT are “definitively Mark and Gary” (He didn’t say “Gary and Mark”.)

For TT5 have you seen the videos? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJMVaCQRn3A It’s not “Look back don’t stare” it’s “Extra Features Part 2” of the video. (Just like always the most of the mass media has no interests who write songs and this part doesn’t exist in main video) Gary said “TT has 3 main great song writers.” Sure successful DJ like Howard can add modern taste to TT music but 3 full force main song writers are in TT according to Gary. In the video Gary also says things like: He feels that Mark is on the way to be those musicians who sit at the piano and just writing songs rest of his life, or Rob and Mark love to rewrite existing tracks and so on, etc.

Have you also seen “Take That Progress Track-By-Track” series videos in You Tube which I suggested? For ex. “Flood” and “Eight letters” had been written by Rob before he rejoined TT. He wanted to impress TT members with those songs. For the “Flood” Gary wrote some melodies bridges between main melodies written by Rob and Mark wrote the most dramatical part of the song. So Flood is officially written by TT, but Gary is obviously not the main writer of Flood. For “Kidz” Mark got the concept and made most of the melodies of Kidz. According to Haward Gary wrote backing track of Kidz. Here Gary is also not the main song writer. In usual sense “main songwriter” is the person who writes main melody and lyrics. Gary did not write much in Progress in this sense. I personally believe Gary is a great song writer. But if you consider those entire situations, you can’t write “Gary is the main song writer” of TT.

If you can’t believe that Mark writes songs, I can also introduce other interviews as example.

For ex. See You Tube video “Take That the making of Up All Night pt1”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWa6bFZoKS4 (Interviews as the second single of “Circus” “Up all night “ was filmed. Main vocal: Mark) Gary says that he is the biggest lover of this music + Mark wrote the most of the songs + lyrics are all from Mark.

If you can’t help thinking, Gary should have given great influence in song writing or so, you can see song, for ex. Mark’s recent solo charity song “Lantern” (written by Mark). You can hear the song in you tube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_KVF5wgZqo&feature=related He is a good writer, too. I heard he plans to release this song in future for charity purpose.

Mark considers if he doesn’t exist, there is no TT. If you listen to what TT says, it is clear that Gary is one of the main song writers and one of the main lead singers of TT.(but of course very important one. No question about that! Without Gary no TT)

If you’d like to control this site, please make research first + don’t say something like “Gary writes every song” without proper objective evidence. I dare to take my time to explain because I want you to see the real situation and don't lead this site with personal emortion or impression.

I’ll add "in the nineties" and make it "in the nineties Barlow acts as the lead singer and primary songwriter". (I don't need your permission to do it, but you can't delete without objectiv evidence) As all the reasons which I have mentioned, I believe it is right.

If you think what I say is not right, please come back with objective evidence. If you can't, as you know official writer of songs is "TT". That is the fact what Wikipedia needs. If you can’t believe what TT member say, what else can you believe?


 * You are subjectively stating as a fan of Mark Owen etc that this is the case when you have no real evidence to counter what has been proven. A recent source also states that Barlow remains the lead song-writer behind the band here. All the members of Take That are full of praise of one another so you would expect them all to say that they all have roles in the band! And did you really try and say that because Jason said Mark and then Gary after (Mark and Gary) that Gary doesn't have a role as big as Mark in the song-writing when Mark has previously gone on record saying that he is not strong when writing the music/melody to a song. Your edit has been reverted thus so, so please do not attempt to start an edit war as you will be temporary blocked from editing. For future reference please read my comments on your talk page and follow the rules of signing your posts and presenting them in an orderly fashion. Best, Yids2010 (talk) 13:39, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

No, I don’t have any intention to say Gary has no role in the band or so. I really admire his capabilities as songwriter and a lead vocalist. No doubts he is an excellent musician and one of a main song writers and singers of TT. What I really find very strange in this site is: It seems that somebody controls and tries to give impression (or really strongly believe) that the most of the songs are written and sung by Gary even though it doesn’t reflect current situation of TT. Here in the site, nothing is mentioned about other members’ contribution at all. They are making song together. Official song writer of all the songs is “TT”. But it seems it is taboo to say such a thing in this site... If somebody read only “Barlow acts as the lead singer and primary songwriter”, he gets an impression that the most of the jobs were done only by Gary….

I’m quite interested in who writes such beautiful songs and was surprised to find Rob and Mark wrote quite a lot melodies and lyrics. (For ex. The videos: TT members sit together and explain song making process and who contribute which part of each song. . Nothing is more trustworthier.) It’s not only Gary. At first I was a bit skeptical about Mark’s contribution but when I see closely I found he wrote a lot of music and lyrics for TT, especially the songs which he sings lead vocals. I feel sorry for him for what Rob calls “Mark’s problem”.(=his works are praised as Gary’s achievement). If many people work together, even though one person write for ex. 80% of a song by himself, he can’t claim he writes the song. It also applies to Gary. Maybe that’s why I feel it is so strange to read primarily songwriter and main vocalist issue here in Wiki. ... It seems Gary is a good guy. He says very often Mark (and Rob in TT5 also) is also main songwriter. So I was quite surprised to hear from you that this is an experimental idea. (But as you should have already seen in several videos, it is not my idea. All the TT members say so in many different interviews. If you want I think I can find other videos, like Howard say that in TT4 Gary and Mark write the most of songs and so on. Do you like to say TT doesn’t say truth? ) It seems the most mass media doesn’t have interests on such issues. So I had thought it is interesting for you to see those interviews.

I have read a lot of articles about song writings a few years ago in internet. As I didn’t made copies I believe it should be very difficult to find it again. (and I don’t want to spend time for it) What I can easily find are video interviews. They are not ideal as references of Wikipedia article. Because of that I don’t try to write my opinion in Wikipedia. Only part which I wanted to change is to add “in the nineties” to the part “Gary is primarily song writer and lead singer”, as it doesn’t really match the situation now. The official writer of all the new TT songs are “TT” + how the situation in Progress/Circus, I believe it is fair to say so. Lead vocal also. (As Rob and Mark count,Gary take lead vocal of 1 song in progress. In Circus 4songs) These are all obvious fact that Gary is one of a lead singers and a primary writers. So I don’t understand why you say I argue with no real evidence. And the back up evidence which you use to support “Barlow acts as the lead singer and primary songwriter” were something like “because Rob called Gary as Captain”…. It doesn’t support your argument. The new reference/article you attached on 13th is better. “With Barlow still carrying out the main songwriting duties, their comeback album Beautiful World went straight to number one…” I guess it isn’t difficult to find an article say “Gary is a main song writer of TT.” He is one of the main song writers and no doubt contributes a lot to TT’s music.

What I tried to do with all those videos was providing fair + clear fact. I want to see the people who want to control this site what is going on in TT. (like who write which part of songs and so on) I think the interviews in the videos state clearly what I mean and shows current situation of TT. If you have any counter evidence with fact, please give methe information. I’d like to know.

I don’t know why I’m so strongly attracted by music of TT. I'm even trying to help them in their Wiki... But it semms it is very difficult to make logical constructive argument here. Maybe it needs time to make people to see what's going on.

Gary said clearly that he writes together with TT as he believes that it brings better results. I believe there are some special chemical reaction through their collaboration and it make their songs so special.