User talk:WCFrancis/Archive02

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My Standard Archive Disclaimer:

 * Archives may not be in actual date order and may not include all entries, just those I consider notable significant.
 * -WCFrancis 17:09, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Archive the Second
begun 17:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC).

L. Ron Hubbard reference in John W. Campbell article
I just placed this note on User talk:Hayford Peirce regarding John W. Campbell
 * Please note that I merely moved the sentence to the Talk:John W. Campbell page and said it was for the time being. I have also put several other references I have found on the talk page. Please don't feel that I am trying to revise history, just trying to achieve NPOV with all the facts.
 * ~ WCFrancis 17:58, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Okie, I appreciate that you're just trying to improve the article and make it NPOV. But the sentence you moved, even if only temporarily, is absolutely NPOV -- it just states some facts about Campbell and ASF.... Hayford Peirce 18:06, 14 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your response (now at User talk:WCFrancis). You found my change while I was looking things up on the net (and wondering where my copy of the book collecting John Campbell's editorials might have ended up in the last move). A new user had entered a comment that Campbell had later regretted his involvement. This was in a form that should have gone into the Talk page and I moved that. At the same time I moved the reference to the Talk page, knowing it was potentially controversial. Then I found a couple of references which I have put excerpts and source URLs on Talk:John W. Campbell. Talk pages are intended to be used to attempt to reach consensus on how the article should read. I suspect that DGOQ felt that the sentence as it stood did not tell the whole story. ~ WCFrancis 19:56, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Hello, Neighbor
Hello fellow Wikipedian! I saw that you had edited some stuff on Glynn County, so I thought I'd introduce myself. I live in Brunswick, Georgia (actually half way to Darien, Georgia). You must live somewhere along the coast too. Bubba73 21:42, July 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * ==Greetings from the neighborhood==
 * Hi. Your deduction that I live in the coast is correct.
 * How did you settle on your username, anyway? Not many programmers get called Bubba.-WCFrancis 01:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I had a 1973 car that I let my sister have about 1980 because she needed a car. Her roommate said that it looked like the kind of car someone named "Bubba" would drive.  So the car got named "Bubba".  And it is a '73.  My wife thinks she's met you.  Bubba73 01:52, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * I meant to tell you that I got a laugh out of the name choice. And it is possible that she may have met me. I've been in Island Players productions and get in the newspapers occasionally due to water resources stuff. -- WCFrancis 20:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Liberty Ships
Just skimmed over your contributions re: Liberty Ship construction in Brunswick. Good going - important and notable part of Brunswick's past. I have heard (but do not have verifiable reference) that Brunswick's population (inside Corporate Limits) then was over twice what it is now, due to war workers. Hope we can find some verifiable data - maybe Census? --WCFrancis 06:58, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I don't know about an old census because they're taken every 10 years.  My mother says that Brunswick declined after the war. (Her father and uncle worked onthe ships, and my other grandfather did too.)  There were 16,000 people working on the ships, so that would have been a big increase in the population.
 * That would tend to support the claim of higher population since the workforce is always less than the population. -- WCFrancis 20:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * (I've often suspected that the Brunswick streets given letters were done rapidly in that perios, but I don't know.) However, not everyone lived in Brunswick permanently. Many people stayed in temporary housing during the week and went back home on weekends, sometimes 100 miles or more away (at least one of my grandfathers did that).  Some made long daily commutes.  (Some of that probably needs to be in the article, but I only have word-of-mouth about that.)
 * The street had the lettered names much further back - On the wall of our office there is a copy of a 1910 map by F. J. Torras showing them. There are even older maps (if I remember correctly) showing them. Gloucester St. was once E Street. I don't know how we could find out when A through E were renamed other than a laborious manual search through Commission minutes from the 19th century. -- WCFrancis 20:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, about the controversy about Lanier and writing the poem in Brunswick, that probably can come out because I don't see much, if any, suggestion that he actually wrote it there. He probably was inspired there but wrote it elsewhere, and I don't see any real controversy about that.  Bubba73 14:30, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it's generally accepted that he wrote it in N. Georgia. We might be able to find verifiable info on that somewhere. -- WCFrancis 20:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * although the GA DOT web site that the article links to for the poem reports it as "--Baltimore, 1878". --WCFrancis 01:34, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * PS - also it wasn't a case of ships being launched that month instead of a month earlier or later. The month before and the month after each had the full 5 ships launched, so there really were two extra ships that month.  Bubba73 00:02, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

User:LevKamensky
Posted on User talk:Postdlf:
 * I noted that you removed the AfD tag left by User:LevKamensky on Markian Popov. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Markian Popov still there; I suspect that the AfD nomination was malformed. (I removed his yelling when I saw it.) His reasons are both inconsistant and incorrect, I saw nothing at all wrong with the article. When I looked at his talk page, I was surprised at his "rules"; they seem inconsistant with what I have come to expect on Wikipedia. (I call them "requests" on my talk page, I first called them rules and realizied that was a bit much.) His first edits were in July (3 dates, I think) then nothing until a batch of edits today, so I would think he's still new. This AfD does appear that it may be the result of an agenda on the part of this user.

-WCFrancis 22:21, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Markian Popov deleted by User:Texture as bad faith nomination (concur). Follow red link and click on "view deleted edits" for record. --WCFrancis 22:28, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

User:LevKamensky was permanently blocked for threatening to commit further vandalism by User:Zoe on or about 00:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC). -19:23, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Ruth Archer
Hi. I was edit conflicted by your speedy tag on that article - hope you don't mind me over-riding your edit. Ruth Archer is indeed a character in The Archers (though not Pakistani) so I've made that a redirect to The Archers. Looks like that author is busy doing a degree of low-level "hilarious" vandalism on various articles regarding Northumberland at the moment... Regards Tonywalton | Talk 23:48, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No problem. I had just tried IMDB and only found the production company so (without context) I had no idea that there was actually a series (it being radio). Thanks for letting me know. -WCFrancis 23:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, it helps being a Brit :-) TA is actually the longest-running soap in the world, (though devotees swear with some irony that it is not a soap; it's a FOTWD - Fly On The Wall Documentary) As you say it being on radio does add to the obscurity. Tonywalton  | Talk 23:58, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Removed Redirect. No matter, User:Hall Monitor has deleted it anyway. I'll leave it. Thanks for letting me know anyway. Tonywalton | Talk 00:02, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Your Comments on Davien Crow
Article this refers to here.


 * In reply to your comment You may verify the endorsement and contact HALO GUITARS at wford@haloguitars.com (the owner), artist@haloguitars.com about their endorsement pending on the custom. They have to have the guitar in their hands for the endorsement to show on the site. The endorsement has simply not been put up because Davien has not recieved his guitar. When asking please Reference Sin Star's Endorsement and Custom Invert. If needed I can ask the band for a scan of their contract with Halo Guitars ? I might not get a reply who knows. Davien has from time to time been willing to give me info for my fansite but he is Hartford, CT at the moment for Gothstock according to their official site.


 * I ask please reconsider changing your vote, It should not be based on the rudeness of the contributors or be overlooking information.
 * Look the point summarized is I am willing to work with you guys on why these were deleted but until now noone has given us any feedback and has even lied about stuff trying to get it deleted. All 3 of them meet the sufficient amount of requirements for WP:MUSIC, the guidelines in WP:Criteria_for_inclusion_of_biographies, Importance, Notability (the fact that suicide girls, gidget gein, and marilyn manson are involved and can be verified in those links should proove that), Fame_and_importance mainly the part stating "There is clear proof that a reasonable number of people are or were concurrently interested in the subject (eg. it is at least well-known in a community)" If you can't tell the community of Myspace.com and Livejournal.com alone are enough to meet this criterea you are blind. If you do google searches, go to forums and search their names, or visit internet archives you can find un-disputable information on the band from reputable sources, first hand accounts that are years older than these discussions, and intangible archives kept by internet archives. IF you want more detail read my above rant, your right I do sound mad about this, because I can't see how you can say they do not meet criterea or that this is a vanity page. Please accept my apologies for anything you have taken to be rude and please re-consider changing your vote. What Harm could it do ? BTW I am not trying to bully anyone, I can show you the location of the people threatening to come here and vandalize the hell out of Wikipedia. But I do not want that to be part of your decision at all.


 * I have posted this, I hope that some of you will consider looking for my information and reconsider your vote for now. A lot of people are simply responding to the rudeness of user:sin-thetik and some things I said are being misconstrude as threats. I am simply upset because of all the time it took to write these 3 articles, knowing they fit the guidelines, only to have somone delete them with the proof and verifiable facts right in front of them .. just their un-willingness to read them. Please think it over, I appreciate your time. I'm just a fan girl trying to be the first to get an article up about them since I have been running a fan site about them for almost 2 years now.

Please think it over. G4DGET 04:35, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Replies
My reply, posted on User Talk:G4DGET:

Regarding your request to change my vote, read my comments again. It says clearly (I thought) "Comment only for now." At the end of my comments I added: "More later, I may even vote register my opinion." What part of that was hard to understand?

Please remember that Wikipedians have to deal with massive numbers of non-notable bands. There are many of them put up for deletion every day. The fact that the articles may not be acceptable for Wikipedia (I see you have taken a look at WP:MUSIC) has nothing to do with their worth or talent. It has nothing to do with how hard they have worked to get where they are. Wikipedians who do a lot of work on AfD get tired of seeing this and often refer to "bandcruft". (Cruft is worthless stuff that floats to the top of molten iron, if I remember correctly, and the word has entered wikipedian jargon to mean something that has little worth except to fans - you also see Trekcruft, StarWarscruft and similar.) So they may be cynical about more entries for a band and musician.

You also need to be aware that there were previous versions of the articles for Mind Pollution, Sin Star and Davien Crow. Under those conditions, the only thing that kept your articles from being Speedily deleted (under existing policy and guidelines) is all the material you put in them, asserting notability.

Remember also, that one of the pillars is that everything must be verifiable. This means external information, not fan sites or blogs or anything created by subjects of articles.

You have my assurance that I am reviewing the material you have presented thoroughly and will not make any decision lightly.

Does the band/artist have any full length CDs available and what label? Are they for sale anywhere on-line? Did they perform in any tour? If so, is there any verifiable evidence of this?

Be cautious, also, about appearing to bully or threaten. I think you are aware of this. Many Wikipedians will dig in their heels if they feel that someone is attempting to intimidate them, resulting in delete votes in cases where they might have voted keep, some form of merge or not voted at all. I do not feel as though there has been any threats, but others see some of your frustrated comments that way. I realize you are new to Wikipedia and not familiar with expectations of more experienced users and of community standards of notability arrived at more or less by consensus. Patience can pay off here. (I am still a newby in many ways; I have been editing since March of this year. I have over a thousand edits but since most of them are not in articles, they don't count for much. ( I also make a bunch of typos so one change might be 3 or four so-called edits.) I have learned that I have a lot to learn about how Wikipedia works.

Good luck and remember that it isn't the end of Davien Crow or Sin Star if the articles get deleted. If they are as good as you think, they'll be back when more notable and the articles will stick. WCFrancis 05:19, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I know I am just trying to make sure that everyone knows the facts. Sorry to have bugged you a little. As far as what you said. "You have my assurance that I am reviewing the material you have presented thoroughly and will not make any decision lightly."

Does the band/artist have any full length CDs available and what label? Are they for sale anywhere on-line? Did they perform in any tour? If so, is there any verifiable evidence of this?"

They have had 2 national which tours can be verified by looking through the entries on the Internet Archives - Archive.org when viewing past sites for http://mind-pollution.net, http://sinstar.net, and http://marilyn-manson.net as well as some other sites. All of these were listed and cited as sources. I also provided some links in my rebuttle to further proove this. As far as their CDs Mushroomcloud Records has the enry for "we whill be heard 2" which is a compilation released by a notable indie label. The other releases have not been full length or distributed for Sin Star however Mind Pollution did have a few albums avalible in store catalouges (CDs stores don't stock but sell) but because of legal trouble mentioned in the articles everything was forced to be discontinued immediately. But after all 1 requirement needs to be met for WP:MUSIC. This band has gathered a very large following and your right sooner or later there will be an acceptable article on them. But I do not see why this is not the case now seeing as how they meet the requirements and are linked to some very interesting famous people like Gidget Gein and Marilyn Manson directly.


 * Thanks for taking time to reply. I very much appreciate it. You have been one of the only people to reply to me with respect thus far G4DGET 05:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


 * you're quite welcome. Some editors occasionally lose sight of Policies_and_guidelines number 4 Respect other contributors. We may not always agree but I hope we can keep it civil. WCFrancis 05:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks (Boosh related)
Thanks for adding the merge tag on the Dixon Bainbridge article, I was tired and missed that step. Alf melmac 07:50, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm on a quest to find a way to deal with stuff/cruft that does not involve going to the bogged down AfD whenver possible. Tiny articles that can be merged instead of deleted are in that category. I was not aware of The Mighty Boosh at first and there were some new articles about it without context. When I found something with context I went back replacing speedy tags with merge tags. Sometime in the midst of that I caught the one on Dixon Bainbridge. WCFrancis 16:02, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

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