User talk:WHEELER/Archive2

'''WHEELER, it has been proven that your accusations of document tampering were FALSE, since the original Italian said "right" and it was Herbert Hoover who actually tampered with it and changed it to "left". Therefore I expect you to remove those accusations from your user page.'''

Kudos to Formeruser-83 for the discovery:


 * volume XIV, article is called fascismo by benito mussolini. on page 850, 1st column, about the middle of paragraph 2, Mussolini writes as follows:

Si puo pensare che questo sia il secolo dell'autorita, un secolo di < >, un secolo fascista;


 * Now, I don't know a lot of Italian but I do happen to know that "sinistra" means left and "destra" means right so the translation of "un secolo di < >, un secolo fascista;" would be "a century of the 'right', a fascist century."


 * Send my your snailmail address and I'll send you a photocopy of the page just in case you don't believe me. Or if you think I'll falsify the photocopy use your interlibrary loan system and ask Stauffer Library at Queen's University (Kingston, Ontario) to send you a photocopy of page 850, volume XIV, Enciclopedia Italiana call# REF AE35 E5 v.14Formeruser-83

WHEELER, I hope that was what you wanted! If you need help, let me know. Regarding your question about a reference, I'll happily provide it, but I couldn't follow your question well enough to know what you're referring to. Talk:Fascism is so fragmented into archives that I can't chase it down....I'm sure you understand. If you can tell me exactly what the passage referred to, I'm happy to provide a reference.

I spent an hour+ in a local bookstore last night, and part of it was me tracking down Aristotle editions and checking to see whether they use the word "republic". In checking the Barker translation, the Kaplan translation, and one other (I forget the name), all of them refer to "the polity" or "constitutional government" in passages where your translator selects "republic". This will take a lot of consideration -- is "republic" a close enough match, or are these other translators trying to point out some fine distinctions? You've given me reason to think about this, and I hope you'll do the same. Very interesting. Have a good day. Jwrosenzweig 16:26, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I want to thank Mr. Jwronsenzweig for archiving my user talk page. Thank you.


 * I have just visited four different websites that have the Doctrine of Fascism. They have all excised the word 'Left' and instituted the word 'right'. Clearly, Ayn Rand and George Orwell saw this right. Here is clear and convincing evidence of the changing of words to suit the political power in control. This is an encyclopaedia. We do not change the facts or words of people.


 * The Web sites are www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/German...

www.historyguide.org/europe/duce.html; www.fmarion.edu; library.flawlesslogic.com; and www.politicsforum. What we have here is a determined ideology that wants to re-write history.


 * I have found my references.WHEELER 18:06, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What's your proof that he said "left". Can you give us the original phrase in Italian?130.15.162.71 18:36, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As I have said, I quoted from the Challenge to Liberty by Herbert Hoover. The word is "Left" all the websites have changed the word to "right". WHEELER 18:51, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Is it possible that Hoover changed the word? Or that the word is ambiguous and both sides are translating differently?  I don't have any idea -- can we find the original source in Italian and get an Italian speaker here to offer an opinion? Jwrosenzweig 19:08, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

'''I have deleted posts by Andy and I will delete any further posts from Andy. Talk:Fascism is where to hold these discussions. Not on my User talk page. Please Andy, show some respect and get off my case. Would you please. This is the second time I have asked you. Please contain yourself.WHEELER 23:08, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC) I work at a Library computer. I have only two hours. Excuse me. Please.WHEELER 23:18, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hope you don't mind me posting here one *last* time but I'm going to settle the question of the Mussolini quote once and for all:


 * OK Wheeler, here's the moment you've been waiting for. Our library here happens to have the 1932 enciclopedia italiana. I have volume XIV in front of me and here, I am about to reveal whether your Herbert Hoover book correctly translated Mussolini as saying fascism is of the "left" or of the "right". Have the websites you quoted deliberately substituted "right" for "left" or is the translation Herbert Hoover used in his book just wrong.


 * are you ready?


 * volume XIV, article is called fascismo by benito mussolini. on page 850, 1st column, about the middle of paragraph 2, Mussolini writes as follows:

Si puo pensare che questo sia il secolo dell'autorita, un secolo di < >, un secolo fascista;


 * Now, I don't know a lot of Italian but I do happen to know that "sinistra" means left and "destra" means right so the translation of "un secolo di < >, un secolo fascista;" would be "a century of the 'right', a fascist century."


 * \Send my your snailmail address and I'll send you a photocopy of the page just in case you don't believe me. Or if you think I'll falsify the photocopy use your interlibrary loan system and ask Stauffer Library at Queen's University (Kingston, Ontario) to send you a photocopy of page 850, volume XIV, Enciclopedia Italiana call# REF AE35 E5 v.14Formeruser-83

Wheeler, dont worry about it. I will have a section up by Saturday that will make a most compelling case. TDC 02:21, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Here is clear and convincing evidence of the changing of words to suit the political power in control."

Aren't you being a bit hard on old Herbert Hoover?

Document Tampering
Well, if there is a discrepancy among any number of documents, then some of the documents might be wrong. (alternately, they may be looking from different points of view.) This doesn't mean that any deliberate tampering has gone on.

Especially with translations, you can see discrepancies between how people translate, and that's usually by accident.

Now if you *do* have a set of documents that has internal discrepancies, well, you might end up having to re-evaluate them all. Perhaps the documents you'd already read and which you believe hold the truth could actually be false too? That can be a scary thing to realize.

It's happened with more than one person on the internet that they started out sane, and couldn't handle discrepancies between information from so many sources and went crazy (as in for real), especially when they had to start questioning their own initial position and beliefs.

If you think you are getting this kind of problem, it might be wiser to stay away from such topics and keep your beliefs, rather than to go crazy trying to reconcile your beliefs with so much contradictory stuff from around the globe. On the other hand, you're a wise and sane enough person as it is, as long as you're careful not to get too involved, you'll be able to handle things fine.

Take this FWIW, and take care of yourself! :-) Kim Bruning 09:05, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Okay, now you're even starting to smell slightly of anti-semitism. Are you sure you're entirely ok? I suggest taking a break, a walk in the woods, and maybe catching your breath. Sorry man, but what you're typing now makes it sound like you're on the edge. Take it easy! ^^;; Kim Bruning 20:02, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I worked for two and half years at Kol Ami in Tampa Florida. I was the shabbas goy and enjoyed my time there immensely. I was also the construction worker which built the addition. I attended all the services and learned the hymns. I participated in the singing all the time. If my Christian church, had the liturgy of that place, I would have it made in the shade.WHEELER 21:26, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Alright! :-) Just well, Go Slow, you think a bit different from most wikipedians, and you do have a bit of a tendency to think people are against you. (Which might be logical seeing your first experiences on wikipedia. ) Just be careful what you type and so. You're getting a lot of leeway, but you still have to stay as professional as you can. As long as you do that, your work will be beyond reproach and thus mostly untouchable. Kim Bruning 21:32, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks.Wheeler

Wikipedia etiquette
Welcome to Wikipedia! You have made some interesting observations on talk pages, but you seem to have run afoul of one of our policies. Please read No personal attacks and Staying cool when the editing gets hot.

Okay, we're back. Did you read those? Thanks for taking the time; I know they're kind of long...

Contributors vary as to how "thick" their "skin" is. Some, like me, overlook all offensive remarks. I'm thick-skinned: I can take it. Others take offense much more easily.

Please allow me to make a suggestion: take it easy on any comments touching on Jews and evilness, at least in the talk pages. Any hint that Jews may have brought the Holocaust on themselves is at best a delicate subject.

Why am I saying this to you, when we don't even know each other? It's a long and interesting story, but suffice it say that I am a Christian of Jewish heritage who joined a church widely regarded as anti-Semitic. Yet in a stroke of bittersweet irony I am often called upon to mediate between Jewish contributors and others...

Best wishes for harmonious editing! :-) --Uncle Ed 21:57, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Disambiguation
Disambiguation has the basic rules and process, also see its talk page for some more opinions. If multiple meanings are closely related, then I probably wouldn't split, but for instance arete is also commonly known as a type of landform, so arete should be the disambigger linking to arete (landform), arete (mythology), etc. Everything is fixable, so if you change your mind you can always go back later and rework. Stan 17:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Golden Mean
Looking at it a bit, Golden Mean should probably be its own page, not a redirect. If you click on it and get "Golden Ratio", you can click on the link in (Redirected from...) just below, and it shows the redir page directly - just edit and replace the redirect with your text, and include a link to Golden Ratio for the mathematically-minded. Stan 17:42, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

right on
I anxiously await Sam Spade 00:29, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Cool down eh?
There you go. Remember me warning you about disparity between sources? Well, you're definately not getting any happier, are you? Take it easy, take a deep breath -or better a brisk walk in the park- or what have you, and then "sit down" with (for instance) JWRosenzweig to sort through your sources and see how things actually fit together. Remember to have *fun* doing this okay? Have a nice day! Kim Bruning 16:00, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Maybe I should. My culture and my religion are under attack.  I go into Warrior mode.  I am very high-spirited. I need to take a chill pill.

Wise one! This weekend or so I'm going to look into how to go about getting some folks from the italian wikipedia over so we can merge articles or so. Since they actually read italian we could argue actual sources with them and so, which might be interesting. Remember to be polite to them though, even when you disagree with them. (and very likely you will) :-) Kim Bruning 00:14, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Are our cultures under attack?
Hmm, note that likely your culture and religeon are not under attack, nor are mine. You might get that impression from tv and internet though, just because everyone seems closer together. This also means that people with a fundamentally different worldview from yours (heck, they might as well be invaders from mars), suddenly appear to be sitting RIGHT ON YOUR DOORSTEP. Eep!

It's alarming, but the thing to do is to stay calm and take it easy. They're not really on your doorstep, and you can just talk with them as reasonable human beings. In fact, I manage to talk with muslim fundamentalist infidels and violent selfish americans every day ;-) . And when you talk with them, it turns out that they're acutally just normal human beings like you and me. They just have really different ideas about how the world works. I could tell you stories. :-)

Hmmm, some of the most terrible acts in recent history can be attributed to people who thought that their culture was under attack. The irony is that actually nothing was going on at all! Had they just taken their time and taken a deep breath at the right point in time, perhaps many people would now still be alive and happy. Kim Bruning 00:14, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

On Talk:Fascism
Did I just see you say you would eat your words? Wow. It takes more than a little courage anytime you admit you're wrong about something in public.

Alright, fine then. I still think you're really odd, but you have just earned my lasting respect. So there.

Have a nice day! Kim Bruning 14:23, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I had thought your input on the connection between Fascism and Futurist was interesting. It's just amazing how thin-skinned some people are and have to delete anything they don't like in that minute.

More Paideia
I'm not entirely sure of the result you're aiming at (I'm reading Paideia to learn, it's not a topic I'm strong on), but it sounds like you should probably add to the existing article. A lot of times I'll add to an article, look at it a day or a week later, say "no no no", and rearrange/split out to another article, merge with a different one, etc. Always a good idea to role-play to see it from reader's point of view, imagine yourself as, say, a high-school student in Singapore who happens on the article by accident - you need links at the top to connect to for context, you need to say why the subject is significant, explain connections to related subjects, etc. For several closely-related concepts like "paideia" and "Greek Spirit", composition is usually sensible within one sectioned article, but as you start to link from both ancient and modern scholars (we have quite a few bios of modern classical historians and scholars), multiple articles might link better. Stan 18:08, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

verification
This is what we call verification, its all part of the process of making a respectable encyclopedia. Keep up the good work! Cheers, Sam Spade 18:49, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Greek terms
WHEELER, I appreciate your apology, and hope you've accepted mine for having been gruff. I'm actually quite familiar with Paideia and the Golden Mean (though I'm sure you're even more familiar) -- they're actually principles I try to work by as a teacher (especially the former) and an important part of my philosophy of education (which I base largely on Plato and Aristotle, as far as I understand them). I don't really know how you see them applying to the discussion on republics...other than to say that obviously Aristotle's mixed government is an example of the golden mean for him. I did some reading last night in a book I bought (as a result of our conversation) on Plato and Aristotle's political thought -- the author (writing 60 or so years ago....wish I could remember his name right now) suggests that Aristotle's opinion of Sparta varied widely, and that he was generally more positive about them early in his career, and lost respect for them based on decisions made by Sparta during his lifetime. Interesting. Don't know where this takes us.

And I agree with you that saying that "a republic is any government without a king" is a lousy definition of republic. I'm just trying to argue for a more complicated understanding of Greek ideas about government, and I remain unconvinced that a mixed government is a republic (and that any mixture qualifies as a mixed government, since despite its mixture, Sparta remains defined as a monarchy by Aristotle). This is difficult stuff. Perhaps it will take a long time to sort out. I do hope you'll focus more on the Greeks for that article, though -- I do get irritated by Cicero coming up so often. I know he's in the same tradition, but if we're going to restrict that article to "Greek philosophies" (and I think that was a wise choice on your part), I think we should stand firm on the point. Thanks for your work in researching your statements. Hoepfully we can sort things out sooner than later. :-) Jwrosenzweig 19:16, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Eventualism
Hey, look at this!

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eventualism

This page (and its links) perfectly explain why I've advocated keeping you around. I also think you should read it carefully. It might help you to calm down further. Take your time eh?

Hmm, and instead of flying to Italy, have you thought about asking someone in Italy to scan/digital photograph/photocopy the relevant page? It'll take a little while, but it's cheaper, and we have plenty of time. :-)

Paideia
Is this article written by the same WHEELER as before?

Well, I'm really glad I advocated being polite to you now. Thank you for your contribution.

Kim Bruning 14:13, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Redirects
Yes, redirs are good - terms in languages with non-Latin scripts inevitably have dozens of transcriptions. I wouldn't go nuts and try to do every one of that I could think of; my rule is to do pre-emptively create those that are sufficiently common that I want to mention them in the article too, and rely on my fellow editors to create any additional as they crop up in other articles. See Kavala for a Greek example that I did; for instance, "Cavalle" is a French rendition not really seen that often in regular English, except that it's rendered that way in postage stamp catalogs where millions of stamp collectors see it (took me a bit of work to verify that Cavalle and Kavala were in fact the same place!) Stan 15:36, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Wrong place!
You might want to delete your comments on the votes for featured article page, or you'll come off looking very foolish. You're only supposed to make comments that are directly relevant to voting on that page!

Get your article tidied and convince people in that manner, or use the article talk to reply to peoples comments, don't do it on the featured articles page. :-)

Have a nice day! Kim Bruning 16:14, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Admin Nomination
Hello, I would appreciate your help by earning your vote as an admin. I have been here about 5 months now and have been nominated. I have made many contributions and have improved on my editing and behavior. I take this seriously, that is why I have gotten into it with Anthony so much. You can look at my user page yourself and see my contribtions. I would appreciate a vote in the yes column if you agree. Again, thanks for your time and help. ChrisDJackson 02:34, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Western world
I didn't make the redirect from Western culture to Western world...that seems to have been User:Gabbe. Adam Bishop 00:33, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm flattered that you asked, because I'm a little stunned by the big subjects like Western thought and Western culture, myself. I tend to concentrate on Truffles... "Thought" should refer to philosophy and science and theology. "Culture" is broader and refers to marriage customs, personal piety, city planning, arts etc. Big subjects give overviews with plenty of links in the text for more intense detail A reader should be able to focus in, closer and closer. I don't think one gains by melding in general, and I feel that long entries for deep subjects are the way this thing will head in a couple more years. Looks at the way Crusades lead to First Crusade leads to Godfrey of Bouillon... It's a case-by-case call, though. Wetman 02:15, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Character sets and article names
Please see vanavsos: the original article title does not work properly with some aspects of the software, so I moved it -- please keep article titles on the English-language Wikipedia to strings which can be expressed within ISO latin-1. This will be fixed when the software moves to UTF-8 for en:

Western culture
I'm a bit puzzled as to why you left me the following message:


 * I have ended the redirect of Western culture to Western world and have been giving substance to Western culture. I was thinking of melding the section "Western thought" into Western culture. Please notify me. Thanks.WHEELER 00:23, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Not that I don't appreciate it, but what made you think I was interested in that article? Was the message for me actually intended for someone else? --Lowellian 19:17, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC) (Please respond on my user talk page, as I may not monitor this page.)

Hello. You requested mediation at Requests for mediation. I'm not sure if anyone has talked to you about this yet. If not, are you still seeking mediation with User:172? -- sannse (talk) 15:00, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC) (mediation committee)

Politics
No, I didn't get a chance to read what you had written earlier. Nevertheless, I think my edit of politics was justified. The material on the origin was useful, good information, but it did not belong at the beginning of the article. When reading an article, people look for certain information at the beginning--namely, a quick overview and definition. The level of detail you wanted is great, but doesn't belong in the first couple sentences--in fact, it deserves its own paragraph.

Yours, Meelar

Mediation
Thanks for the response, and apologies for not following up your request sooner. I'm afraid I can't comment on the article you mention - this is not my area of interest/expertise and it is not part of the mediation committee role to make decisions on article content. Regards -- sannse (talk) 14:45, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Greek Philosophies on Republic
I don't know why you think I'd start wholesale reversion and deletion -- if you recall, even when you first arrived, I did my best to preserve your additions (though I know I did still cut large portions). I don't intend to cut anything from the Greek Republic article though, at this point. I do question why much of the article is there -- rather than focusing on the Greek Republic, the article spends a lot of time talking about Roman Republics, English Republics, and especially American Republics. But it is an informative and well-cited article. I do still think it is more argumentative than neutral, but you've done well at reducing that. I hope, though, that no one gave you the impression that this article would replace Republic. You've written an article that describes an ancient definition of "republic" -- this is good. But when most people discuss republics today, they are describing a different kind of political unit -- for this reason, Republic has to remain in place to deal with that definition. I think a "See also" from Republic should point at your Greek article. But it can't supplant the article on "Republic". I hope you understand. Thanks for your hard work. Jwrosenzweig 15:28, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'll second that, nice work there. Kim Bruning 17:40, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nazism_and_socialism
You've been trolled on Talk:Nazism_and_socialism. I'm somewhat dissapointed that you let them pull you down to the level they wanted. I thought you would be wiser than that. Walk away, take the page off your watchlist, and don't look back. (But whatever you do, don't say that that's what you're going to do). Remember that everything you type will probably still be visible for the entire world for over 100 years, so think twice before you hit "Save Page"! Kim Bruning 17:40, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * You're an adult, you can make your own decisions. Hmm, having said that, I think that at this point in time it might indeed be wiser to leave that page well alone for a while. You've been doing pretty okay in other parts of the wikipedia, it might be a good idea to stick to where your work is appreciated. :-) Kim Bruning 18:00, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Wheeler, You said you want to see the original l932 Enciclopedia Italiana ehhh? Well, my brother goes to Rome quite often, (he has been stationed at Aviano for about 4 months now), and I am sure he would be willing to dig it up and copy/PDF the page if you would like. I need a page number for this.TDC 20:28, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)


 * WHEELER, some of your more opinionated contributions might fit better in Wikinfo- at least you wouldn't be subjected to people rv or editing your work for NPOV. I think if you contribute your more factual contributions to Wikipedia and your more original ones to Wikinfo things might go better AndyL 02:28, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER, calm down. a) if the "founding fathers: were reactionary then what were the Tories and United Empire Loyalists who opposed them? b) the founding fathers were also mostly deist, they rejected the concept of a state church, most of them such as Washington and Jefferson, rejected Christ as the son of god. By what you said before in your past definitions of reactionary this means they can't be reactionary. c) they were also heavily influenced by the French philosophes such as Montesquieu (from where they got the concept of checks and balances), Voltaire etc and were sympathetic to the French Revolution, particularly Benjamin Franklin.

I'm just suggesting that some of your theses would work better on Wikinfo where POV is welcome. Check it out. AndyL 17:29, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

" I have another book that says the original party of monarchists in France was called the "Reactionary" Party. But Andy reverts that also." If I rv that I was in error. Sorry. AndyL 17:39, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

socialist professors
I don't know. I've never been to an american university either, though I had the impression that there was a balance of political opinions there. Where I've studied so far (dutch universities), professors and teachers have mainly concentrated on teaching me biology. Kim Bruning 21:14, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have rewritten Horst Wessel to include a biography and a bit of a history of how the song came to prominence. See Horst Wessel Lied. Danny 14:48, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Western world
Sure, no problem, thanks for letting me know. --Lowellian 23:15, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)

rejected arbitration request
As noted, we'd like you to try mediation first, as you are doing at Requests_for_mediation. Martin 16:51, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER and 172
I would like to request oversight on the dealings 172 has with my posts. First, I posted a direct quote from Mussolini with reference. He deleted it. Second, I posted book references in Talk section of Fascism. he removed them, Placed his selections before mine and labeled mine 'polemical'. He will archive a section. Move his stuff forward and archive my posts. Third, I posted images for talking points at the top, he removes them to the reference section as if he doesn't want anybody to see them. I need some help and I need a referee. CAN'T THIS MAN LEAVE ME ALONE AND MY POSTS. He uses one rule for everybody but uses another rule for me. I am getting sick and tired of being harrassed by his edits and reverts, edits and reverts. He is constantly moving my stuff. He doesn't talk to anybody else now. There is a group on there that only talk within themselves and not address others as if we are below them.WHEELER 23:28, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

arbitrator's opinions on hearing this matter

 * Recuse. Fred Bauder 17:20, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Refer to Mediation Committee. Martin 12:32, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * I think you should try mediation first. --Camembert 17:41, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Mediate. --the Epopt 22:06, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Please seek mediation. --mav 08:58, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Living history and Revisionism
Hi, you've set me thinking about revisionism, but my conclusions might be a bit different from yours. You see, I live in a place where there's still people actually alive who remember what happened during the nazi period. Unfortunately my best source (my own granddad) passed away a couple of years ago. Perhaps I could find some people over 60 or 70 who could still simply tell me what they saw and what they knew. But you know, I think that if revisionists had run rampant around here, those old folks would have kicked up quite a fuss already. I think you'd like those folks. :-)

The fact of the matter is - they didn't. So maybe there wasn't much revisionism going on here. But if you *have* found evidence of revisionism, and I think you might have... have you considered perhaps that the revisionism might have been the other way around?

To be quite honest, that's the reason I've been keeping a bit of an eye on you. Especially since you come up with sources.

Have a nice day! Kim Bruning 17:47, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Wringerproofing
The other folks actually do have to go through the wringer from time to time. Track their contributions sometime and check the edit histories at those pages (or check my own humble edits :-/) After a while you learn to deal with it, and you try to wringerproof your edits. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. That and you're building up a rather negative reputation for yourself, which isn't helping one bit. I keep reccomending for you to slow down and maybe at least think 24 hours before adding stuff to a talk page. You probably have decades to work on a decent article, but you can ruin your reputation in minutes by unjudicious use of "save page". Take a break, this is not a war! :-)

Kim Bruning 17:43, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC) WHEELER, this is the paragraph you wrote:


 * When Henri De Man's Italian translation of Au-dela du marxisme emerged, Mussolini was excited and wrote the author that his criticism destroyed any "scientific" element left in Marxism. It is achievement of the antimaterialist revision of Marxism. "Mussolini was particularly appreciative of the idea that a corporative organization and a new relationship between labor and capitol would eleminate 'the psychological distance in which--more than in the clash of economic interests--you rightly see the germ of class warfare.'" In his rejection of pure Marxism, he discovered a way to create a revolution without changing the foundations of the system. Fascism is a revision and not a variety or a consequence of Marxism.

"Mussolini was particularly appreciative of the idea that a corporative organization and a new relationship between labor and capitol would eleminate 'the psychological distance in which--more than in the clash of economic interests--you rightly see the germ of class warfare.'" has no citation whatsoever. It is a quotation but no where do you say who wrote it! If you preceded the quotation with "Political scientiest Zeev Sternhall writes" you'd be fine.

As for:
 * In his rejection of pure Marxism, he discovered a way to create a revolution without changing the foundations of the system. Fascism is a revision and not a variety or a consequence of Marxism.

That is POV. AndyL 18:23, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER, the problem wasn't with the quote, it was that you didn't say who said it. You put in the quote without giving an attribution. AndyL 18:33, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER stop being so defensive. Read the paragraph you wrote:
 * When Henri De Man's Italian translation of Au-dela du marxisme emerged, Mussolini was excited and wrote the author that his criticism destroyed any "scientific" element left in Marxism. It is achievement of the antimaterialist revision of Marxism. "Mussolini was particularly appreciative of the idea that a corporative organization and a new relationship between labor and capitol would eleminate 'the psychological distance in which--more than in the clash of economic interests--you rightly see the germ of class warfare.'"

Can you honestly not see what's wrong with it?

Here, I'll correct it for you:


 * When Henri De Man's Italian translation of Au-dela du marxisme emerged, Mussolini was excited and wrote the author that his criticism destroyed any "scientific" element left in Marxism. It is achievement of the antimaterialist revision of Marxism. Political scientist Zeev Sternhall writes that "Mussolini was particularly appreciative of the idea that a corporative organization and a new relationship between labor and capitol would eliminate 'the psychological distance in which--more than in the clash of economic interests--you rightly see the germ of class warfare.'"

Do you see the difference?AndyL 18:49, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What, in the A. James Gregor article is incorrect? If you don't think it's a problem that Gregor is a segragationist and a eugenicist you shouldn't have a problem with those facts being mentioned. AndyL 19:10, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No idea why you contacted me about the article on A. James Gregor, but if you think you can improve it, why not just edit it and see what happens? Remember it's most important to actually have fun doing this though. :-)

Hmm, in other news, I've noticed that for someone who seems to like original sources, your writing has a very strong american continent bias. It's a bit hard to understand things like how nazism got so powerful, if you can't look at the german and historical perspective of the time. Kim Bruning 11:54, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER, I'm not the only one who scrutinises your edits. Quite a number of people are very critical of your editing. Perhaps you should consider those crticisms instead of being so defensive and leaving nasty messages. AndyL 18:42, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

You read about fascism (and are unable to differentiate between theory and practice) while my family lived under fascism. AndyL 10:42, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

DOUBLE-STANDARDS and CENSORSHIP?
"""The Viet Cong were my lesson. It is alright for you to be anti-Christian but it is not alright for me, if I was, anti-semetic. Double standard applies here doesn't it?!WHEELER 17:14, 3 May 2004 (UTC)"""

Of course! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL The DOUBLE-STANDARD always applies in ANY CASE where such "ilk" is in control, WHEELER. You are learning the hard way from personal experience and from my own case and "Kangaroo Court" Hearing! LOL! :D Good Luck!

Best regards,

Paul Vogel

http://www.cosmotheism.net

email address?
Wheeler, I tried sending you an email to wheelerplatis@hotmail.com but hotmail says that address doesn't exist. I sent it again through the Wiki service but of course there is no feedback about if it went through or not to hotmail. Do you have a new email address, and if not, are you aware that hotmail is not working for you? I want your insight on something but I don't want to spam up your talk page. --M4-10 19:17, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Self Taught
Hi, I recall you mentioning you were very much self taught? Hmm, something AndyL said on Talk:Fascism reminded me. If you teach yourself, 9 times out of 10 things go ok, and you learn pretty well, but occaisionally when you learn without a tutor or in fact without anyone to provide some kind of friction, it's like being on ice. Your conclusions might start to race off at wild tangents and you end up not really learning new things (because you start just seeing what you want to see, rather than what's actually there.)

What I've seen of your wikipedia behaviour seems to back this up. You started out with a huge amount of documentation to back you up, but your conclusions and soforth could use a little tuning here and there :-) As time has progressed I've seen your edits gradually improving as you started to get some decent friction where the tire meets the road :-P. This is a very good thing! :-)

Instead of dealing with folks as adversaries, I hope you're starting to realise you can just use them for traction to learn more and better instead. Some folks on wikipedia are very critical as you might know. That's usually a good thing too. :-)

Anyway, hmph, where was I going with this. Oh yeah, I think you're improving. Self-taughtness is not a bad thing, many folks who built the actual wikipedia engine are largely self-taught too. (I know at least 1, and am going from there through induction ). As long as you realize your unique strengths and weakness (and particularly remember to ground yourself in reality), you'll end up learning a lot, and incidentally doing useful things on wikipedia too.

Right, enough for one day. Have a nice day! Kim Bruning 16:44, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

"Reactionary Party"
While monarchists in 1870s France may have been called reactionaries, or even called themselves that, I'd very much like to see a citation that there was such a thing as a Reactionary Party with capital letters. Among other things, France was very late to develop organized political parties in the modern sense - parties were basically very loose groupings until the founding of the Radical Party at the beginning of the 20th century. Even then, the center-right was still composed of very loose groupings throughout the life of the 3rd Republic. john k 17:06, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Wheeler, "party" does not necessarily mean "organized political party." Party can mean simply "group" or "faction", and in the context of late 19th century French politics, almost certainly does. In this case "harsh party name" would appear to mean "harsh name given to monarchists by republicans." That is to say, they were called reactionaries by members of the republican "party". As monarchism became weaker, the "reactionary" name ceased to be used, and was replaced by "conservative." In either case, though, there was not a Reactionary Party or a Conservative Party in the sense that you have parties in the US or Britain at this time, or in France later on. john k 17:20, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Not having the context of the book you're citing, I can't be sure exactly what is being said. But there definitely weren't organized political parties, and even the vague, loose groupings didn't really have one that called itself "reactionary." Before 1873 you'd have legitimists (supporters of the Comte de Chambord - these are the ones who would probably be called "reactionaries"), Orleanists (supporters of the Comte de Paris), a few Bonapartists, and republicans. In 1873, the Legitimists and Orleanists came to an agreement. But none of these were really "parties" in the modern sense - just loose parliamentary groupings. john k 19:36, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Have you seen kulturkampf? And did Sam Spade's brother ever send you a photocopy of the Encyclopedia Italiana page? You really should remove your claims of document fabrication from your user page. AndyL 20:48, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, which is probably why Hoover published disinformation in his book about the Doctrine of Fascism. So are you going to correct your statement on your userpage given the fact that your claim is incorrect?AndyL 21:07, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER, libraries in Canada would not respect a recall of an encyclopedia by the leader of a country we were at war with. The volume at Queen's is an original, not a version printed after 1940. The "recall" may explain why it's difficult to find the encyclopedia in Italy, that's all. AndyL 18:58, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * What are <<>> in the text?

Emphasis.

Wheeler, your source says recalled and *destroyed* not recalled and substituted with an identical volume with corrections. Obviously the volumes that we are using in North America are ones that remain because the recall would have been ignored outside of the Axis countries, particularly in countries that were enemies of Italy in 1940. AndyL 19:02, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Isn't this interesting though. There should be two Doctrines out there then. We should not ASSUME anything. We need to know what happened from there? Maybe He reprinted the Encyclopedia and sent it back out. Who knows?

Wheeler first you say "we should not ASSUME anything" then you make a whopper of an assumption. Your source says recalled and "Destroyed" not recalled and replaced by a new version. Being at war would mean there are no regular communication lines between Canada and Italy. Not only would a Canadian library not send a text back to Italy because it was "recalled" they would have no means to do so as well as no means of receiving a substitute volume. Even if this occured the new volume would not be identical to the other volumes in the encyclopedia, it would not look at old, being in the middle of a war it wouldn't have the same type of paper and binding etc. I can assure you that the volume in question looks no different from the other volumes in the set. There is no reason to think it's a replacement and, again, you have no evidence that replacement volumes were ever printed and sent out, indeed the evidence you cite states the exact opposite that the volumes were recalled and "destroyed".

It looks to me that you're again taking an enormous leap because you have an idee fixe and don't want to admit that Mussolini said that fascism was of the "right". AndyL 19:13, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Talk:Republic
Hmm, while asking a question on talk republic, I noticed you pointed out:

''Efforts were made by N. Gorham and Von Steuben to induce Prince Henry of Prussia (a brother of Fredrick II) to become a hereditary sovereign of the United States. The old Dutch Constitution would have served as a pattern. ''

Depending on the dates and so, wouldn't that actually be the *new* dutch constitution? (.nl was originally a republic ;-) ) . I'm curious! Could you come up with some specific dates on when the event occurred, and would you know which dutch constitution is being referred to? Thanks! Kim Bruning 08:20, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Not quite off the face of the earth...
Should I assume from that comment you're a flat earth believer? ;-) Only kidding you.  Good to see you around the place -- I thought you'd gone completely.  You seemed frustrated last time I saw you...not with me, I think, but then it's been a while.  I've been frustrated around here myself, fighting off editors who, unlike you, contribute nothing at all but abuse.  You seem to be more content-focused these days (from a glance at your contributions) and I'm glad.  Thanks for your hard work -- even when I disagree with your additions, I do recognize you invest time in the work you do here, and that makes me glad.

The parallel articles you suggest....I just don't see them fitting in here. Some parallels (the long argument about nazism and socialism, for example) simply have to be addressed, but as you well know, that article is pretty contentious. Generally we avoid them because they become grounds for big arguments. There are places that I think would interested in essays on those topics (I don't have any links to them, I'm afraid), and I'm sure you'd do a nice job writing them up. But I think they'd come too close to essay/original research to pass muster around here, if you want my opinion (and I figure you do, since you asked for it :-). Perhaps you want to work on a project at Wikibooks? Something about political science, perhaps -- of course, it would be collaborative, so you'd have to do the same kind of negotiations you do here, but Wikibooks, I think, is more open to instructional writing, rather than the attempt for NPOV you find here. You might have a look at their site, anyway. I don't think people will be receptive to adding parallels, even to "Miscellany" sections of articles....they'll be inclined to go to George Washington and line up all the parallels between him and Karl Marx or someone just to piss you off. Finding parallels between any two people or two ideas can be carried too far very easily, which is why we almost universally avoid it. I'm sure you understand. Thanks for the note, though -- I hope things are going well for you? Drop me a note if you want any more thoughts of mine - I'll go look at that reference you've provided. Jwrosenzweig 18:01, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)