User talk:Walkerma/Archive3

For other talk page archives see User talk:Walkerma/Archives. Other close archives include:

Archive1 &mdash; Archive2 &mdash; Archive4 &mdash; Archive5 &mdash; Archive6 &mdash; Archive7 &mdash; Archive8 &mdash; Archive9 &mdash; Archive10

WikiProjects
Hi Martin, I did some housekeeping on the Chemistry wikiproject. My intention is to give the various effort a combination, so that they can be better together than separate. Please discussWim van Dorst 18:56, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC).


 * Wim, I like the cleaned up version. I suspect it may be better to omit the reference to the HCl article in the participants section, especially as there is no reference to the featured article on Titanium (Put refs to both of these somewhere else?). I like the new chemistry "icon", even though the cynic in me asks why a Dean-Stark trap is  attached to an Erlenmeyer flask!  It's so much more interesting than the standard old benzene ring and so on.  When I get some time (2 exams to give this week!) I will try to start adding in the template to the pages I've worked on.  Please see my comments about the main chembox template- personally I don't like this template, and I think we could do much better now we have a "critical mass" of active chemists.

Thanks for all of your work on this stuff- I feel comfortable with chemistry but get out of my depth when I start getting involved with templates and so on. Walkerma 22:28, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Since you seem interested in chlorides, please see WikiProject Chemicals. H Padleckas 16:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi there H. I am in fact currently writing a page on phosphorus tribromide, which I will probably have done by tomorrow.  When writing it I found it was so easy to do the other PX3 compounds at the same time that I have already done tables for these.  I can probably have a page for phosphorus trichloride done within a week, then I will have (albeit shorter) pages finished for phosphorus trifluoride and phosphorus triiodide shortly after that.  I am thinking that while I have all of the phosphorus books out in my office, I may as well do phosphorus pentachloride and phosphorus oxychloride while I'm on, as well as two long-standing goals of mine, triphenylphosphine and triphenylphosphine oxide.  These probably won't get done till after the end of the semester (later May), then I can perhaps look at ethylbenzene too.  Walkerma 18:13, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * My name is Henry. Nice job on Phosphorus tribromide.  Are you finished with it?  Please see Talk:Phosphorus chlorides and Talk:Phosphorus tribromide.  H Padleckas 15:19, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting me know your name, Henry! Regarding general vs. specific pages, I have put comments on the individual pages, but I will give a more general response here.  Fundamentally this is almost a philosophical question- and I see each compound like a character in a play, and if the play is important enough (and much of chemistry is) then each deserves its own personality to shine out.  I think that's why I like to show pictures, too.  Also there is the long term aspect- I accept that right now this page is fine for where we are now, but in 5, 10 years, people are going to want to find out specifics on individual compounds, and they will expect to find them on Wikipedia.  We probably need a hierarchy of both general pages and specific pages, of pages on esters and other specific pages on (say) ethyl acetate if these are distinctive and important enough to warrant them.  We have something working against us, namely The Two Cultures, so despite the immense importance of chem & the chem industry to the world our subject is often seen as too difficult for ordinary people, or obscure- but I think Wikipedia is big enough to accomodate individual pages.  (I think for PCl3 there is probably enough to write a book!)  I do accept that many compounds will never warrant their own pages- I took out lots of these when I wrote List of organic compounds- but let's not go too far the other way.


 * As for "family" pages (as I think of pages like this) I think they do fulfil a useful role in the hierarchy, and I for one am really glad that you have taken on many of the hugely important commodity chemicals like the xylenes and the phthalic acids. So I think I would like to keep such pages in place, but if something is important enough it should also have a more general page.  I've been thinking for a long time that we need family pages like Iron(II) or Copper(I) that would give a general description of iron or copper in that particular oxidation state, to supplement pages like iron(II) sulfate or copper(I) chloride, and to cover things like complexes that don't warrant their own pages.  But I'm not going to write any any time soon..!  Walkerma 17:28, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * A presentable draft of a phosphorus halides page is now available for comment at User:Physchim62/Temp. I agree with Dr Walker's comments about "family" pages: they have their place in the hierachy, and all the more so as Wikipedia coverage becomes more complete. They enable us to give some information about compounds which either do not merit their own page or for which we haven't yet got round to writing a better article. Physchim62 13:53, 21 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Hey, that phosphorus halides page looks GREAT! That looks like exactly what I had in mind when I was talking about family pages. This really enhances the quality of the Wikipedia compound pages, if we have pages like this as a layer above the individual compounds.  I look forward to seeing things like PuO2 and MoO3 going up, too.  (I notice someone else started a very brief stub on the latter already).  To meet our project goal, though, we'll have to turn these into full-length articles.


 * I have added a page on phosphorus triiodide, this was half-done about a month ago, I wanted to get it finished off and uploaded. I'd appreciate if Physchim62 and Henry can clean up the page as needed. The Chem. Commun. reference you include too on non-existence of PI5, in case you don't have access to it (I have it on my desk), says that PI4+ I&minus; is very endothermic, most likely PI3 + I2 based on thermodynamics. They made PI4+ AsF6&minus;.


 * By the way, do you want us to call you Physchim62, or are you willing to reveal your real name? Thanks again for great work! Walkerma 18:11, 21 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I have looked at your recently posted Phosphorus triiodide article and made a small correction. When I get a chance, I may make a couple additional small observations on the Talk:Phosphorus triiodide page.  H Padleckas 09:51, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Glad you like the phosphorus halides stublet, and thanks for the details on PI5. You guessed correctly that I didn't have the ChemComm in front of me, but the idea that PI5 is unstable with respect to reductive elimination of I2 seems eminently believable, especially if it's someone like Thomas Klapötke who's saying it!

As for phosphorus triiodide, I deliberately left this one to you as its seems that its main interest is as a reagent in organic chemistry. It might be worth checking the claim in Greenwood & Earnshaw that it is useful as a mild oxygen-atom acceptor. 22:50, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

See Phosphorus Halide pics
See Talk:Phosphorus tribromide and Phosphorus chlorides. H Padleckas 20:12, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

See end of User Talk:H Padleckas about Phosphorus chloride pictures and response regarding Phosphorus trichloride review. H Padleckas 22:08, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Also, in case you haven't seen it yet, see the my POCl3 picture in Phosphorus chlorides and my response to your question on the 103&deg; bond angle reference question on my talk page: User talk:H Padleckas. H Padleckas 09:08, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

FREE BEER (but not yet)
I now have confirmation that phosphorus trifluoride has no large-scale, legitimate industrial uses. However this is not because of toxicity or hydrolysis, simply because its notable use is not large-scale and is no longer legitimate... As for WikiProject_Chemicals, I consider myself a minor participant. For the moment I am working through cleanup, including cleanup of Category:Chemistry stubs but also a lot of translation work. So far my only original chemical contribution is stibine! All the same, rhodium(III) chloride, iridium(III) chloride, Wilkinson's compound and Vaska's compound are on my to do list, and I will take on zirconium tetrachloride and hafnium tetrachloride if you are doing the oxides. My other priority is to improve the level of safety information in these articles, but one thing at a time! All the best, and see you on the talk pages! Physchim62 19:25, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That should be cleanup of Category:Chemistry stubs, if only to prove that I am still a WikiBeginner! Physchim62 19:30, 10 May 2005 (UTC)


 * You caught my attention with the section heading! I have a picture of HfCl4 if you do a page on that.  I would call it Wilkinson's catalyst, by the way.


 * Regarding the safety info, please see the comments & proposed changes to the standard table. One problem with Wikipedia is that it is not a legally reliable source for safety info, so personally I would never dream of using it.  I have the alcohol page on my watchlist, and several times a week there is some drunk who adds something like "Uses- You can get out of your mind by drinking it." Also, there can be so much safety info there is a danger that the page switches from being an encyclopedia entry into being an amateur MSDS page.  I am proposing that we put in just the basics of safety, then for more information you can click a link to see a full MSDS page.  Please give me your comments on this before we standardise on the template, I'd be very interested to hear.


 * Regarding the WikiProject_Chemicals/Organization page, our goal is in fact just to ensure one compound per element. Things like RhCl3 and Vaska's complex therefore help us reach our goal, but something like AlBr3 doesn't.  Of course it doesn't stop people writing several pages on one element (e.g. P halides), but that's separate from the project goal.  Cheers, Walkerma 20:14, 10 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Hey, nice job "Monsieur", on those transition metal compounds, I've been so busy on the template and my students' exams I didn't notice those links turning blue! I like the one on Vaska's complex particularly  I'll scrutinise them more when I have a little more time.


 * TRIVIA QUESTION- worth one free beer, brewed in the Adirondack Mountains, available in my home town of Potsdam, New York, to the person who knows where Vaska did most of his work. Walkerma 23:43, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
 * At TAMU and Clarkson, coincidentally (?) in Potsdam, New York, where he still lives in the area. Read about it on Lauri Vaska ;-). As I don't like beer, I'll let you buy me champagne if ever I might find myself in the SUNY area. PS Thanks for the nice hunt subject for a lazy Whitsun-Monday morning (holiday here in The Netherlands). Wim van Dorst 12:35, 2005 May 16 (UTC).


 * Well done, Wim! I thought you might find the Potsdam connection amusing- it's only a little town in the middle of nowhere, but we have two colleges, so practically all of my neighbours have PhDs! The Clarkson chemistry department is mainly known for its colloid chemistry, but Vaska certainly made his mark too.

Thanks for the support on the List of Schedule 1 substances (CWC) VfD, but you missed the crucial clue in the Arras free beer competition! Phosphorus trifluoride is a chemical weapons precursor, notably in the "military" syntheses of Sarin and Soman (info is PD, but you will excuse me for not shouting the links from the rooftops). Terrorists (Aum Shinrikyo in the Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway) and (apparently) the Iraqi government used a somewhat different route to the same compounds (see note above). Otherwise, I agree with your comment that we cannot start making MSDS's for the compounds, but neither can we ignore the safty issue altogether: the way that I see around this problem is to provide a collection of official safety data in the same way that we try to for, e.g., thermodynamic data. See my (still incomplete) article on Directive 67/548/EEC and links thereto to get some idea. Finally, I have to admit that the articles on Wilkinson's catalyst and Vaska's complex are not my work - I only did copy-editing on them once I found them. Physchim62 20:05, 16 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Great question, I had PF3 behind me when I stumbled across your list page, I should have spotted that! Did those metal complex pages come from the French Wikipedia? I've been surprised how little chemistry is in the French version as yet, compared to the German & English ones, why is that? Walkerma 21:49, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * No, the metal complex pages were there already, just badly indexed. I found them when I finally sat down and thought I should do a bit of proper article writing and not just cleanup work. I've no idea why fr: is so lousy on chemistry, even es: is better (for a smaller total number of articles, I'm not saying hispanophones are bad chemists ;). The francophones have got decent pages for the elements, but not much else as yet. Personally, I use de: regularly when I'm working through the list of chem-stubs and on other chemistry copy-edits, but I only check fr: in the hope of being surprised one day!
 * BTW, the free beer question was not just a tease: as you seem to be the person keeping an eye on phosphorus halide pages, you should be aware that it is possible, even accidentally, to prepare small quantites of cholinesterase inhibitors while working with them. For the moment, I shall leave the ethical questions to individual editors, even the one who submitted the ricin article, but I let myself draw your attention to the fact that such questions exists!
 * Finally, sorry for not submitting comments for the new chembox: I didn't realise the discussion was going on! Never mind, I suggest that the new version be "road-tested", and reviewed in a couple of months' time. Personally, I think I shall be sticking to for my articles, but that merely reflects the obtruse subject matter that I choose! Physchim62 22:37, 16 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing out the connection- I tend to think of PX3 P(OR)3 as simple compounds that a chemist might use for organic or inorganic transformations, just like all of the other halides I've worked on. I'd thought of those organophosphorus compounds as being a long way from PF3- I'm naive, I suppose.  I was astonished at how extensive the Wikipedia entries for things like sarin, all the more amazing when you consider that until last month we didn't have any entry for PCl3. I think the simple inorganic box is fine (I wrote it!), it's got the basic info in it, without you needing to travel to Lille for books. Walkerma 15:00, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

FREE BEER anyway, seeing as I've had to withdraw my complaint about the preparation of PF3! Only had to go to Lens to do so, and it was sort of on my way home from work! I also picked up enough info to try for a stubbish phosphorus halides page; it will appear here first for comments.

USELESS FACT OF THE EVENING: not even ja: has a phosphorus trichloride page (they have some 600 other chemical compound pages), so we're not doing too badly.

Maggie, Maggie, Maggie...
ARRAS FREE BEER QUESTION: which post-war British Prime-Minister has a Ph.D. in Chemistry? Physchim62 19:15, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Although I know by heart that Margret Thatcher did do chemistry before her political career, but whether she has a PhD? If so, do I have to go to Arras to collect a bottle of champagne? Easier than Potsdam :). Wim van Dorst 20:20, 2005 May 18 (UTC).
 * Yes, you have to come to Atrecht to claim your prize. Disclaimer: Please consult the List that didn't get VfD'd before accepting :) Physchim62 21:19, 18 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't recall whether or not she got her PhD, though Wikipedia doesn't mention a PhD. That would make sense since she was always referred to in England as "Mrs. Thatcher" not Dr. Thatcher (though I lived in Gateshead, solid Labour party (UK) territory, where she was usually called by less polite names). I could be wrong, though. One interesting trivia point- although she rarely gave TV interviews, she did do a special on the chemistry of cooking while she was prime minister!  I suspect she wanted to soften her image, by showing herself as intelligent yet wearing an apron, baking cakes like a good housewife.  The Wikipedia page says she worked as a chemist at an ice cream company.  I'm not aware of any other post-1945 UK PMs that were PhD chemists. Walkerma

Yes, Margaret Hilda Roberts has a Ph.D. in Chemistry. Rumour has it that it was only awarded only the understanding that she would never use it professionally (she studied Law afterwards, but never practised that either). She is also (as PM) supposed to have stopped a draft directive that would have forbidden the production of compounds for which no safety data was available (imagine chemical research...) The rumours are, or course, unverifiable (but persistant)! As for editor bias, I was born about 15 miles from Scunthorpe, 'nuff said! Physchim62 22:04, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Oestrogen chemical infobox
You asked for it. Wim van Dorst 18:24, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC).

 Very amusing, I'm sure, now deleted thank you. I'd have chosen a rather prettier picture myself, like Image:Mirren.jpg. By the way, Wim, I should perhaps mention that I have put User:Wimvandorst up as a Vfd candidate- not the user page, the user himself. Walkerma 18:53, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It wouldn't work: Mirren doesn't have glasses ;-).

PS. Your picture is still on Wikipedia in Image:Walkerma.jpg available. If you don't want that, it really should be deleted. Of course I'm quite willing to delete it, but perhaps you want to use it for your homepage or so. And I checked the Vfd page. Wim van Dorst 20:57, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC).

I will leave it up- it's not as bad as most pictures of me- I will use it from time to time on my user page. Cheers, Walkerma 04:32, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ongoing work

 * By the way, will the new phosphorus halides page use the phosphorus chlorides page as a starting point? I'm almost ready to post my new page (written over several weeks) on vanadium(V) oxide, by the way, and I would very much appreciate feedback and edits. Walkerma 21:26, 18 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I originated the Phosphorus chloride article to cover PCl3, PCl5, and POCl3 as well as any other oddball phosphorus chlorides there happened to be, such as P2Cl4. At the time, I thought it would be difficult to come up with enough material to make full articles for individual compounds.  I admit that it is a rather unfinished hodge-podge of facts and pics.  I have a few more things to add to it and then I would like to leave it to  Walkerma (or does Physchim62 want to work on it ??) to develop this article/information as he sees fit, including perhaps dividing the material into separate articles, or merging/expanding it into a general phosporus halide article with links to important individual compounds.


 * I am also in the process of writing a separate article covering polyphosphoric acid and polyphospates. I have already started this article offline.  So if somebody wants to write about this topic, please let me know, so there's not a duplication of effort.  H Padleckas 09:08, 19 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Is the Vanadium(V) oxide article finished yet? I have looked at it and see some potential "inconsistencies" in it. However, if you're not finished with it yet, I would rather wait for you to finish before I make further corrections.  I also noticed a red link to Chromium(VI) oxide in there, so I made that page a redirect link to Chromic acid, which currently covers chromic and dichromic acids and chromium trioxide.  Please see my comment on the Talk:Chromic acid page.  Also please see my comment on Talk:Phosphorus oxychloride too.  H Padleckas 09:51, 23 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, I had considered the V2O5 page complete other than the supplementary page. I realise that I have included information on vanadates too, but that seemed appropriate since it is what happens when you play with aqueous solutions/slurries of V2O5 (as with MoO3, I believe). Please bring to light any inconsistencies- the article was written over about a month, by "distilling down" a lot of detail from a variety of sources, so inconsistencies may well have arisen.
 * The V2O5 page is good, but needs some copy-editing (is on my 2DO list...) I am fine with your coverage of vanadates, as the polyoxovanadates formed at intermediate pH values deserve a page of their own. Overall, I think you have struck a very good balance between pure chemistry and industrial applications. Bravo. Physchim62 19:01, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

For more serious matters, I will put any phosphorus halides article in my userspace(at least initially): I have already mentioned my misgivings about the phosphorus chlorides article, but it has the undeniable virtue of being available! After verification, the Preparation sections of Rhodium(III) chloride and Iridium(III) chloride are pretty much ready: I am willing to take on molybdenum trioxide and molybdenum disulfide as well, although I am currently short of the structure diagrams that these articles should really have. Physchim62 22:04, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Don't expect a novel-length article on PuO2, there's just not enough that's worth saying about it. MoO3 is another story! This will need a project to link through to articles on the polyoxomolybdates and on its analytical uses (at the very least). MoS2 looks promising as a candidate to take through to Peer Review: the subject is reasonably self-contained and of general interest. Otherwise, I'm doing remedial cleanup work around group 17 (see, e.g. chlorine fluorides): the noble gas compounds (perxenate, xenon tetroxide, xenon hexafluoroplatinate etc.) will need pulling into shape as well. And I guess my employers will want some work from me before the end of term as well! Physchim62 22:50, 22 May 2005 (UTC)


 * While I'm in a "phosphorus mood" I'm working my way through the Wittig reaction, this important reaction deserves more than a stub. Walkerma 14:42, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Amino acids
Now moved to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Chemicals

Back to NMR Spectroscopy
Please see comment on NMR Spectroscopy at the bottom of the web page in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chemicals. H Padleckas 08:59, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Image suggestion
Hello Walkerma! I really like the images you've made for the Wittig reaction article. I have one minor comment, and I hope this isn't too nit-picky. I think the literature reference is very important to include, but not in the image itself. I would consider the literature reference to be "metadata", which should be included in the image description. I wouldn't change any of the images already made, just future images. As I said, this is very minor, but just something I wanted to bring up. ~K 04:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, I will follow your suggestion in future. I may redo the Schlosser image anyway, since I inadvertently wrote the "bold" in wikicode instead of real bold- a sure sign I'm spending too much time on Wikipedia! I put the ref in because I can imagine these images (being PD) getting copied and recopied- I see this in students papers all the time- and I judged that having the reference in the image was better. Walkerma 04:26, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Naming of organic compounds with prefixes
Sorry about PABA. Didn't realise. Shame Mediawiki does not document page moves in the history. JFW | T@lk  08:01, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry to butt in on a private conversation, but if this problem has a relevance for style guidelines (and, God knows, we have problems with prefixes) can you make a public summary available? Cheers! Physchim62 14:20, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Nothing new here really- hence no need to put it on the main project page. When I edit list of organic compounds, I regularly find pages that need fixing.  I moved the page in accordance with our "rough style guide", but someone else immediately reverted it.  I pointed out the reason for my move, and he very kindly restored the move.  This is the section from his talk page- User_talk:Jfdwolff.  You can see that I also solicited his opinion on the interface with the drugs Wikiproject (he is a medical doctor and member of that project). Walkerma 14:50, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Menthol image
Hey Walkerma, I read the Menthol article, and it looks really great. You are quite a prolific wikipedian. I like your image of the synthesis of menthol from myrcene. Hopefully, you have it saved somewhere, because you're missing a double bond in the top right structure. I don't mean to be nit-picky, but I thought I should mention it. ~K 5 July 2005 19:24 (UTC)
 * I was about to classify this as an obvious A-Class article, but this blooper and missing the NFPA ratings really blocks such grade. Just kidding: this is again a very good article, Martin. Compliments. Wim van Dorst July 5, 2005 19:38 (UTC).


 * Thanks for the feedback, please feel free to add more modern material, many of my sources are older than I am! I have fixed the blooper, thanks for spotting that. Regarding the NFPA diamonds, I don't have numbers to hand to insert into these- do you get them off MSDS sheets or what?  Regarding the whitespace reduction, Wim, are you aware that you've made the table a lot wider on Menthol?  I actually inserted some  s in so that the table doesn't take over the page.  Can we insert a couple of them back in in the appropriate places? Thanks again, Walkerma 6 July 2005 22:09 (UTC)

Hey, I found the NFPA rating for menthol and put it on the page. I also narrowed the chembox a wee bit. The page looks great. And thanks for fixing the blooper. ~K 7 July 2005 04:10 (UTC)
 * Thanks, K, I was still looking for that NFPA data. And yes, I was aware that I was widening the table, but I just wasn't done yet. The important thing that I reduced are the double hard returns and  's in there that make the table look very erratic in layout. Again, here K did the appropriate thing: first I made it a wide table, using the   with no whitespace (spaces, return, etc) around, and then he put the breaks where they should be. Thanks Martin for starting the article for real, and thanks K for nishing the job. PS. Of course it is in the Fully compliant A-Class on the list of A-Class articles. Wim van Dorst July 7, 2005 19:32 (UTC).

Whitespace

 * Wim, can you give us some general guidance on whitespace etc? Maybe this should go in the style guide or the infobox page?  I did in fact the same thing with menthol, making a wide table then adding in a few breaks as needed to narrow down the page (I do most of my "edits" using preview mode).  I learned HTML in a room full of programmers, who taught me that in writing code you should feel free to space things out and move things onto the next line to make the code readable.  I had thought that the server CPU usage for such things would be minimal, am I wrong?  Many of my carriage returns are in order to make the table clearer (IMHO) to read- though I think in general these tables are horrendously "user-unfriendly"!  So, can you give some guidance on making the code clear and comprehensible yet compact and efficient? Thanks, Walkerma 7 July 2005 20:04 (UTC)

There isn't anything special here: the wiki interpreter just interpretes whitespace differently than an HTML-browser. For Wiki a hard return is a line break, for HTML it is just white space, thus to be ignored. Making an empty line in Wiki-editing is therefore two line breaks, and in HTML that is still ignorable whitespace. And Wiki does odd things with two line breaks, e.g., it inserts 1.5 empty line on what you see on your webpage (depending on which browser you use). A simple recommendation is:

and another simple recommendation:

Note that the results as you see them here are highly browser dependent. Depending on the browser, these two tables may show you small oddities or larger ones. Success with taking precautions against it. Wim van Dorst July 7, 2005 20:39 (UTC).

Naming conventions (chemistry)
Thank you for contributing to Naming conventions (chemistry). I have now summarized the discussion on that page and added certain points which have been discussed at WikiProject Chemicals. Any comments, and especially improvements, on the results would be more than welcome. Physchim62 7 July 2005 11:00 (UTC)

Two cleanups in the phosphorus tribromide chembox
Yeah, right, only two 'cleanups', and now to trace who put a trifluoride under the heading of other ions. I'll help you: it was this guy. As faithful table converter, I of course kept this kind of 'worthwhile' information in ;-). Wim van Dorst July 7, 2005 21:33 (UTC).
 * Wim, I did the fluoride, chloride and bromide all at the same time to save time, and I realised that this mistake was a result of my cutting & pasting- sorry about that! As I see it, SbF3 is too remote from PBr3 as it differs in two ways, not just one, and its not as if there is nothing else closer. Sorry about that! I was only trying to help! Walkerma 8 July 2005 02:58 (UTC)
 * No need to apologize, Martin. All your efforts are highly appreciated, as you know. It did give a nice puzzle to work on (real relation or not), but as I couldn't be sure either way, I simply left it in. Wim van Dorst 19:37, July 13, 2005 (UTC).