User talk:Walton One/Archive 1:February to December 2006

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On nobility and rewriting
How odd. I had just taken Nobility off my watchlist yesterday, thinking that it looked as though no-one was going to attempt it. I should have known that the instant I did this, someone would go for it. Lovely. The European stuff looks much more plausible now; and there's room for other people to add details of other nations if they happen to know them. And that all-important lead section now makes sense. Hooray. Thanks a lot for taking it on. Telsa (talk) 22:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Absolute Monarchy examples
Overall, I think your changes are very good.

I removed the first paragraph from this section as I found it to be really more introductory. If you want to try to work it into the article intro, feel free.

Good work! Nach0king 18:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Lord High Admiral of the Wash
Thanks for sorting out the capital letters on the article title. It was one of the first articles I wrote, and I accidentally called it "Lord high admiral of the wash" and didn't know how to correct it after I'd saved the article. For future reference, it would help if you could tell me how to do it. Walton monarchist89 12:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You just click on the "move" tab above the article and follow the prompts. It seems so obvious to me but you are by no means the only person who seems to have difficulty with the idea. If you started with a really rubbish spelling that you are ashamed of, then go back to the original title (by clicking on "redirected from") and add to the redirect &#123;{db|rubbish title no one would ever use}}. Otherwise just leave the redirect - it is harmless. -- RHaworth 12:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Unblock
I need help! I've been blocked for 3 days because of the shared IP address that I'm using; my IP address has been blocked because of vandalism committed by other people on my network. I can't e-mail the administrator ("Thue") who blocked me, because my mail client isn't working. Please can someone unblock me? Walton monarchist89 09:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I have left a message on User:Thue's talk page for him to come here and try to settle fix the issue. Pepsidrinka 11:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I need the IP address or username which I originally blocked know which block to undo to unblock you. I am guessing that this is shown with the "blocked" message you get? Thue | talk 15:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

from Fastifex
Glad to read someone actually values my meager contribution on Nobility (the article; most of my relevant contributions are in more specific pages, mainly on numerous titles). Since your pseudonym and contributions list strongly indicate you seem particularly interested in noble titles, I can highly recommend RoyalArk, precisely for non-Western traditions; it is far from complete, but by the time we could possibly work our way trough its present treasure trove (as my interest and activity are far wider -mainly institutional and other historical- and already produced an 'impressive' watchlist, circa 2500 articles in just under a year, I only occasionaly find time to dig in it properly).

You may find relevant categories inspirational as well, e.g. Court titles, Feudalism, Heads of state, Monarchy, Noble titles, Ecclesiastical titles; to keep them usefull, it would be nice if you could work them in you own contributions where appropriate, which at the same time 'advertises' them to target audiences of wikipedians.

I was delighted to find in your page on the Gentiluomo of the Archbishop of Westminster (I've edited it a bit; please notice the plea for sourcing, which applies to every single article worth reading).

By the way, as I couldn't help noticing the previous section on your talk page, I'm living proof one can even be maliciously blocked for, well, being right: my 'crime' was using the self-explanatory word 'countship' in stead of the hopelessly ambivalous 'county', and even though I hadn't even reverted the nucklehead reverts I was considered a 'repeat-offender' by the sorry excuse for an admin who shames the pseudonym or name of Adam Bishop, even though the rule is an admin should abstain from blocking for a dispute he's party in (and he clearly was), so my considerable knowledge about countships -as a Flemish historian- will not be worked in Wikipedia in the forseeable future. Fastifex 12:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Glad again to read my raging above didn't turn you off. I've replied (well, sort of, for the time being) to your kind request on my talk page, but just remembered you may not have the preference option to put every edit page on your watchlist, so if not (and then I suggest you consider enabling it): please read over there. Fastifex 13:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Blocked again
This is particularly addressed to the admins Nlu, Thue, and all the others who have blocked me. Am I to suffer the perennial problem of being blocked from editing because of vandalism by other users on my network? Isn't there some way that I can be allowed to edit using my login, even though my shared IP address is blocked? This isn't fair. I've written a number of valid articles (see Wakeham Report, Hereditary titles, Nobility, Birmingham Political Union, and Court appointment and no one has ever complained about my editing. I know that it's definitely my IP getting blocked, not my login. Please do something. Walton monarchist89 11:17, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello, unfortunately there's nothing much we can do at this point - it's just how Wikipedia works. Although measures are being taken to reduce this "collateral damage", your best bet is probably to use the unblock template, specifying that you want your IP block removed. Cheers, Tangot a ngo 11:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

My IP address is 83.100.168.42.

I'm somewhat confused since the address you've given has been blocked for some time, yet you have been editting in the intervening period. --pgk( talk ) 19:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

American Empire
I answered your question here and I wish you the best of luck in the future and happy editing! - Patman2648 23:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * {Helpme} removed, it's not for using with blocks.--Commander Keane 15:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Unblocked. --Sam Blanning(talk) 10:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Yet another unblock
I really wish something could be done about this. It's a problem that continually occurs. Walton monarchist89 08:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * IP? Essjay ( Talk  • Connect  ) 08:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * 83.100.168.41 Walton monarchist89 08:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Unblocked. Essjay ( Talk  • Connect  ) 09:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Walton monarchist89 09:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem. If you have trouble getting an admin with the unblock template, you can also email the [mailto:unblock-en-l@wikimedia.org unblock-en-l] mailing list. Essjay ( Talk  • Connect  ) 09:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Another unblock - this is getting crazy
Unblock|Shared IP address; vandalism committed by other users. Isn't there anything I can do about this in the long run? It's getting to be a daily occurrence. Ip address 83.100.168.42}}

Done. -- Pilotguy (roger that) 17:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Walton monarchist89 08:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Barrayarans!
You are very welcome! I am trying to add as much as I can to the Wikipedia coverage of the Vorkosigan Saga because I really enjoy those books. When i started fooling around with Wikipedia, there was almost nothing on line about the Vorkosigan Saga. I hope to make pages for basically every relevant character, event, planet, and issue in the novels eventually. Should be fun. Thanks again! "It ain't easy being Vor." Dachande 20:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Unblock again!!!

 * Thanks. Walton monarchist89 08:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Lords Reform
Hi, I noticed you contributed to the Page Lords Reform. I've tried to update it ready for the forthcoming legislation. You might be interested to take a look and see whether you can add anything!

--LordsReform 18:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

The AMA
I say that you were interested in joining the AMA. Full instructions for joining are on the page AMA Members. -Royalguard11 (Talk·Desk) 19:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, I see that you have decided to join the AMA. I'll be the first to say welcome! We're always in need of more advocates, especially since were backloged most of the time. Just a few pointers for what we do. We communicate by putting a template on our talk page. The template is AMA alerts. The AMA also has it's own IRC channel which reports new cases to us. If you'd like to jump right into a case, you can check out WP:AMARQ, which is our new request for advocacy system. The instructions for how the technical part works is on the talk page. You can also use the AMA userboxes that appear under here. If you have anymore questions about the organization, just ping any advocates talk page, including our coordinator, Steve. Again, welcome to the AMA! -Royalguard11 (Talk·Desk) 04:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Association of Members' Advocates
Hi, you are receiving this message because you have listed yourself as an active member of WP:AMA. If you aren't currently accepting inquiries for AMA, or if you have resigned, please de-list yourself from AMA Members. If you are still active, please consider tending to any new requests that may appear on Category:AMA Requests for Assistance. We're going to put AMA on wheels. :) Sorry for the template spamming - we're just trying to update our records, after we had a huge backlog earlier in the week (if you've been taking cases, then sorry, and please ignore this :)). Again, sorry, and thanks! M a  rtinp23  21:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

AMA and Tags
Yes I need all the help I can get with the Armenia article, and as far as the GWB userbox, I am happy you like it!--Caligvla 16:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Armenia Sources
I have posted these many times... The sources below are peer reviewed journal articles from academic publications they not only state Armenia is in the middle east, but state the Armenian culture is Middle Eastern

1.Observation of Coherent π[sup 0] Electroproduction on Deuterons at Large Momentum Transfer. By: Tomasi-Gustafsson, E.; Bimbot, L.; Danagoulian, S.; Gustafsson, K.; Mack, D.; Mkrtchyan, H.; Rekalo, M.P.. Physics of Atomic Nuclei, Dec2003, Vol. 66 Issue 12, p2159-2168, 10p; DOI: 10.1134/1.1634323; (AN 11714909)

2.Armenia Wants Second Mideast Synchrotron. By: Koenig, Robert. Science, 11/24/2000, Vol. 290 Issue 5496, p1481, 1/2p, 1c; (AN 3817426)

3.Book reviews. By: Krikorian, Robert O.. International Journal of Middle East Studies, May98, Vol. 30 Issue 2, p276, 3p; (AN 607702)

4.Reviews of Books: Middle East. By: Bournoutian, George. American Historical Review, Oct97, Vol. 102 Issue 4, p1197, 2p; (AN 9711021875)

5.Book reviews: Armenia. By: Kechichian, Joseph A.. Middle East Journal, Autumn97, Vol. 51 Issue 4, p605, 2p; (AN 9711171671)

6.Africa & the Middle East. By: Papazian, Dennis R.. History: Reviews of New Books, Spring97, Vol. 25 Issue 3, p131, 3/8p; (AN 9705014215)

7.Book reviews: The Armenians. By: Adalian, Rouben P.. Middle East Journal, Autumn96, Vol. 50 Issue 4, p596, 3p; (AN 9706241608)

8.Book reviews: Armenia. By: Adalian, Rouben P.. Middle East Journal, Summer95, Vol. 49 Issue 3, p509, 2p; (AN 9510232977)

9.Works on Islam in Russian. By: Landau, Jacob M.. Middle Eastern Studies, Jul93, Vol. 29 Issue 3, p580, 5p; (AN 9308307357)

10.Chosen peoples: Why ethnic groups survive. By: Smith, Anthony D.. Ethnic & Racial Studies, Jul92, Vol. 15 Issue 3, p436, 21p; (AN 9210192609)

These next sources are from well respected refence books, which all place Armenina in the Middle East 1. The American Heritage Dictionary, places Armenia in Asia Minor 2. The CIA World Fact Book, places Armenia in Southwestern Asia, east of Turkey 3. Easton's Dictionary, places Armenia in western Asia 4. Encyclopedia Britannica, places Armenia in Transcaucasia, lying just south of the great mountain range of the Caucasus and fronting the northwestern extremity of Asia. 5. Rand McNally Atlas, places Armenia in Asia

The opposition has only 2 sources, 1.) an obsecure Canadian website that places Armenia in Europe, and a BBC article that mistakenly places Armenia in Europe.

Their arguements are completely counter to 99.99% of every published reference book on Earth, I strongly urge you to grab a dictionary or other refernce source off your bookshelf and see what it says for Armenia. This entire debate is completely absurd.

--Caligvla 15:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

how can we talk offline, outside of wiki... ?--Caligvla 15:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have found the following sources which mention Armenia as being in Europe. Note that Armenia is not seen as exclusively a European country, but it cannot be dismissed as a non-European country, either.

Armenia's valleys have been called the natural highways between Europe and Asia, and Armenians have been called the gatekeepers of East and West.

Baliozan, Ara. 1975 The Armenians. Kar Publishing House, Toronto.

Armenia's unique position as a corridor between Asia and Europe attracted invaders and resulted in long periods of foreign domination.

Bournoutian, George A. 2002. A Concise History of the Armenian People. Mazda Publishers, Inc. (coming from an author that Caligvula mentions)

Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan are all considered parts of Europe.

Western Civilization: The Continuing Experiment. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2005

''Historically, Armenia and Azerbaijan have been long associated with Asia and the Middle East. In recent years some sources now consider them to be more closely aligned with Europe based on their modern economic and political trends.''

http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eu.htm

''Armenia is a mountainous, landlocked country, on the southeastern edge of Europe, and at the gateway to the Middle East, and all of Asia. ''

http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/am.htm

''Armenia is a member of ... the Council of Europe.''

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5275.htm

The country became a member of the Council of Europe in 2001.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/1108052.stm

I believe there is sufficient evidence to keep the references of Armenia as being, at least partially, a European country.

Please note that I am not deeply involved with this dispute, there are much more active members, such as Eupator. General concensus on the Armenia talk page was to leave the article as it was before, this was disputed only by Caligvla and probable anonymous sockpuppets. He has been very persistent in a very personal goal to have the Armenia article changed, which is ultimately having a disruptive effect upon Wikipedia by forcing users, such as myself, to focus our attention on his efforts instead of more constructive endeavours. -- Augustgrahl 14:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, note that until recently, Caligvula proudly announced on his user page countries that he will "never travel to" (Armenia is first on his list), and has in the past made edits to characterize Armenians as swarthy, hairy criminals ,,,. I warned him for vandalism over this, and I believe it casts doubts on his motivations on Wikipedia. -- Augustgrahl 15:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Walton, what's the point of this? Look at the archived discussion. Everything is there! How can we change an NPOV article that cites both positions and change it so that it only mentions one position?

Also what are these so called sources?

1.Observation of Coherent π[sup 0] Electroproduction on Deuterons at Large Momentum Transfer. By: Tomasi-Gustafsson, E.; Bimbot, L.; Danagoulian, S.; Gustafsson, K.; Mack, D.; Mkrtchyan, H.; Rekalo, M.P.. Physics of Atomic Nuclei, Dec2003, Vol. 66 Issue 12, p2159-2168, 10p; DOI: 10.1134/1.1634323; (AN 11714909)

What on earth does this have to do with our topic?

2.Armenia Wants Second Mideast Synchrotron. By: Koenig, Robert. Science, 11/24/2000, Vol. 290 Issue 5496, p1481, 1/2p, 1c; (AN 3817426)

Synchrotron?

etc....Do you know how he found these? He searched for "Armenia Middle East". I can do "Martians Middle East" or "Scandinvaia Middle East" and find tons of articles that contain both keywords. It's just plain silly.--Eupator 15:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Btw Walton do you know why he is blocked now? He was blocked for 48 hours for fabricatiing a source! See: Talk:Origin of the Armenians--Eupator 15:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don’t think the real debate was about the technical geographic classification of the current Republic of Armenia, but more about the classification of the Armenian culture, and more importantly the Armenian people. The current debate was mostly a continuation of an ongoing dicussion from the Talk:Armenians page, as to whether or not Armenians were a ‘European people’. While Calgvla may have stated that the topic at hand is a geographic issue, the debate over the Armenian nation is only the most recent standpoint in a long chain of discussions he and his edits have sparked. Calgvla has firmly stated that Armenians are not part of the ‘European family”, though he has so far  only defined this ‘family’ using an incomplete cultural map of what Europe was thought to be in  1200 BC. As already mentioned, Calgvla’s first Wikipedia edits deal entirely with the Physical appearance   of the Armenian people, and I would hardy consider “swarthy, excessive body hair, and monobrows” to be complimentary, or even neutral. While this is very suspicious, I will not make the obvious assumption and instead will encourage Calgvla to come forward and explain his motivation for these offensive edits.


 * The classification of Armenia based on the boundaries of Europe is not an important classification, the Ural Mountains boundary is designed simply to divide the Eurasian land mass into two separate parts, with no cultural justification. Similarly, the southeastern border of Europe, a line drawn through the Caucasus, has no cultural basis and does not even have a uniform standard. Sometimes the border is drawn north of Georgia and Azerbaijan, sometimes south to include Armenia, and it often it splits the countries in two. Since Europe is not a nation and its borders are not defined or maintained by a Governing body, a nation’s classification as ‘European’ should (and, particularly in Wikipedia, usually is) defined by culture.

I hope you will understand. Thank you, The Myotis 04:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Caligvla
My position is rather straightforward. There are two POVs ergo according to the WP:NPOV policy, both should be in the article. Some people consider Armenia as part of Asia; some consider is as part of Europe. And then of course there are all shades in between (geographically in Asia, culturally in Europe, in the sense that Armenians have historically felt a closer affinity to their co-religionists in Russia and across the Black Sea, and felt alienated to their Muslim neighbors, etc). At present the article says that Armenia is in Eurasia (a term which combines Europe and Asia), and includes both the templates Europe and Asia. Caligvla has engaged in a long and odious trolling campaign to push his POV that the article should say that Armenia is in Asia and therefore Europe should be removed, and Eurasia replaced with Asia, as well as racist and disruptive edits, e.g.. There has been an RFC the result of which was an overwhelming consensus to maintain the article as it is (see the second archive), but Caligvla insists. Armenia is a full member of the Council of Europe (something which Caligvla considers irrelevant) and the European Commission have spoken of possible Armenian accession to the European Union. IMO the situation is best summarized in the words of Torben Holtze, head of the European Commission's representation in Armenia and Geogria : ''as a matter of principle Armenia is a European country and like other European states it has the right to be a EU member provided that it meets necessary standards and criteria. The European Parliament noted Jan 12 2002 that Armenia and Georgia may enter the EU in future.'' I think that Caligvla should respect the consensus which has developed - when a proposed edit of mine is rejected, I accept it. The only people supporting Caligvla's point of view are himself, blocked User:Nixer, and their sockpuppets (I can give you a long list - both blocked and unblocked). I am not Armenian, I am Greek, and therefore have no axe to grind here.--Tekleni 22:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

BTW, that "obscure Canadian website" Caligvla speaks of is the website of the Department for Foreign Affairs and International Trade of the Canadian government. Go figure!--Tekleni 22:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This statement "I am Greek, and therefore have no axe to grind here." could be misleading, the Greeks and Armenians suffered greatly from the same oppressor. You know the old saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Hence the relationship between Greeks and Armenians is very close. --Caligvla 05:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So? You don’t see Greeks arguing that Kurds and Assyrians are Europeans, despite the fact they, too, share that same enemy. It certainly does not relate to the topic at hand - The Myotis 23:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So? You don’t see Greeks arguing that Kurds and Assyrians are Europeans, despite the fact they, too, share that same enemy. It certainly does not relate to the topic at hand - The Myotis 23:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Armenia
Proposed Change is fine by me, It might be nice to mention that the Armenian govt. considers Armenia to be in Asia Minor.--Caligvla 15:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Also something to keep in mind the Con. of Europe is not an EU orginaztion, it is an independent group that promotes trade. Just about anyone can join who has extensive trade with Europe.--Caligvla 15:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Stop lying. Everything you said above is simply a lie. It's not ignorance it's a lie!--Eupator 16:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah right. You obviously haven't got a clue what the Council of Europe is - it has nothing whatsoever to do with trade . You really are making everything up as you go along, aren't you? This explains a lot of things...--Tekleni 15:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Response
Walton, first of all before I respond I suggest you take a look at the following edits made by caligvla: ,,,, ,. He has even used nazi literature.

Consider the following, what we are discussing here applies to at least to two other countries as well: Cyprus and Georgia. The community has reached a consensus on this matter long ago, before I even began editing in Wikipedia. That can be seen by the fact that Armenia, Georgia and Cyprus are on the Europe templates as well as any Category or stub related to Europe. We are not back to square one, we have never been at square one because both sides of the argument are available and are presented everywhere in Wikipedia. Nowhere does it say that Armenia, Georgia and Cyprus are geographically absolutely within Europe. Nowhere! As for history, culture and politics that is not even under question. In additon there is no special "historical relationship with Asian peoples". That can be said about every single country in Southern and Eastern Europe. Armenians themselves disagree about whether their country is Asian or European. That is false. Find me one Armenian government official that doesn't say Armenia is in Europe? I have provided quotations from the Foreign minister of Armenia and the President that say the contrary. As such I can't see any reason why anything anywhere needs to be modified. Also, if you think caligvla's alteration of the source was so funny, why was he then blocked for 48 hours? I did not find it amusing nor did the admin who blocked him.--Eupator 15:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have never used any NAZI materials EVER! That is a complete lie, and these attempts to make the issue about me are subversion.

The facts are the facts Armenia is in Asia Minor. Therefore it's an Asia culture. As for the Europe template it clearly states Armenia is entirely in Asia. Not matter how many European clubs Armenia may join or how much rhetoric is spoken from politicians it doesn't change the fact that Armenia is where it is. If the Armenian govt. is happy to agree with Armenian is located in Asia Minor, so should these guys.--Caligvla 16:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Here's an admin saying you have . Here's whos source you used:. Some say it, some say the border of Europe and Asia is not physical and only cultural. All articles clearly state that. Also, the allegation the Armenian government considers itself anywhere else but Europe is simply a fabrication (mildly put).--Eupator 17:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Not sure where Armenians put themselves, but the CIA FactBook puts it in Asia, then again its the CIA, how accurate are they usually, j/k. --Nuclear Zer0 18:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * We actually cite the CIA as a source saying that it along with the UN classifies Armenia, Cyprus and Georgia in Western Asia. However, all three countries consider themselves to be in Europe so do ALL European organizations and governments.--Eupator 19:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If a neutral non-political Armenian govt. site says the Armenians are from Asia Minor and Armenia is located in Asia minor, this debate should be closed, see here http://www.armeniainfo.am/about/?section=people
 * Eupator is correct in the fact that there are a few Armenains politicians who want Armenia to join the EU and are trying to make Armenia look more European. And have made bold statements that might lead some to believe Armenia was always European, good for them, but the EU is not the topic of discussion or any other the other Non-EU trade orginizations Armenia belongs too.--Caligvla 05:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Eupator is correct in the fact that there are a few Armenains politicians who want Armenia to join the EU and are trying to make Armenia look more European. And have made bold statements that might lead some to believe Armenia was always European, good for them, but the EU is not the topic of discussion or any other the other Non-EU trade orginizations Armenia belongs too.--Caligvla 05:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * This very same Armenian site says "Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection and located at the crossroads between Europe and Asia.". It would seem that it's not just a "few politicians" with the belief that Armenia belongs, in part at least, in Europe. -- Augustgrahl 05:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes that is a great line, true, fair and correct. However you cut the line short, it reads "Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection and located at the crossroads between Europe and Asia, in the southern Transcaucasus."I would be perfectly fine with using that line to replace this line on the Armenia article "Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe." --Caligvla 08:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The Transcaucasus is seen as the dividing line between Europe and Asia. The site clearly states that Armenia is in part a European country. -- Augustgrahl 15:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Caligvla uses geographical arguments. But at the same time he supported version which would had placed Armenia close to Ural Mountains. Simple world map proves this to be completely incorrect so probably Caligvla is incompetent in geography or he is ready to ignore factual truth just to push Armenia out from Europe.--Staberinde 16:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Response part deux
I have no problem with you personally, I was just angry at your characterization of caligvla's actions and the suggestion that I should have looked at the last one as a mere joke. We can cease addressing that matter from this point on. Now, I find nothing wrong with that sentence. I do have problem with that sentence replacing the other one. Both are correct.--Eupator 17:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't find anything short of what I have below acceptable given the fact that I have not seen a single valid reason to make any changes at all and that the overwhelming majority of those involved agree with me. Even my acceptance of the paragraph below would be conditional,depending on a guarantee that there will be no further disruption by caligvla and that it will be enforced by someone other than me.

''Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection in (or on?) the periphery of Europe near Western Asia, in the Transcaucasus (Transcaucasus already means Southern Caucasus). Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe. (by some is weaselish and casts doubt on the whole sentence)--Eupator 18:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to elaborate, the fact that one single user disputes something against overhwelming consensus doesn't necessarily warrant a change. So I don't see why a resolution must be achieved with a change. --Eupator 18:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Eupator, has been very agressive about deleting any supporting comments, just like the one here, :::'I am in Georgia and only a tiny part of our homeland is in Europe and no one lives there it's all mountains. If I live in Europe this is the first time I have heard of it. Armenia is south of us, so how could they be in Europe? --62.168.169.185 17:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)' It is very very misleading to say only a "single user" requests this change. Please review the RfC there have been many who have disagreed with Eupator's edit. Some of the users supporting the correction have been: ExplorerCDT, Badger151, Wordlytrin, Nixer, John K., 69.196.164.190, 87.230.8.219, Other's like Francis Tyers, Craig Thomasian, Moosh88, Hamparzoum have been willing to meet half way. There are a lot of editors who want this changed, but don't have the ability to keep up with Eupator's agressive edits and deletions. see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Armenia/Archive_2) for a partial record so many comments were delted it would take a forensic specialist to unearth them all.--Caligvla 08:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Stop blaming me for everything, it's becoming tiresome. Other than Nixer nobody has supported you. Not one single user. As several admins have told you several times anons who most likely are sockpuppets do not matter. --Eupator 17:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This opinion is, for the purposes of Wikipedia, original research by an anonymous user and thus has no validity for debate on Wikipedia. -- Augustgrahl 15:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

No
Try this ''Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection and located at the crossroads between Europe and Asia, in the southern Transcaucasus. Geographically the Armenian government places Armenia in Asia Minor and some Armenian and European Union polticians place Armenina in Europe.''
 * That's false. That's not a government site. ATDA is a publically traded company. --Eupator 18:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, had Asia Minor/Anatolia retained its original population and culture (ie: had we won the Battle of Manzikert). The region would be part of Europe today and within the EU.--Eupator 18:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like original research and speculation. The borders of Europe have been clear long before those events.--Caligvla 08:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So? Your reasoning behind this whole mess is based on original researach (or lack thereof in terms of research). No they haven't, they never were and they still aren't.--Eupator 17:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

As for the site see here (http://www.gov.am/enversion/links.htm) The Armenian govt. controls the content and directs everyone to go go to it for "Armenian Information"--Caligvla 08:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Wrong again. "OTHER LINKS", the government has absolutely nothing to do with that private company.--Eupator 17:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

One Question
Are you currently on the case AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/October 2006/caligvla? If you are, then could you set the AMA status to open, just so we know someone is on the case? Thanks. -Royalguard11 (Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 17:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply to Eupator
Eupator, you know very well that Armenia is not culturally or historically part of Europe. It is not any more European than Lebanon, Tajikistan or India.--Nixer 07:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why a POV of a Mongol-Tatar matters here.--Eupator 13:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I beg to differ. The European Parliament has not spoken of Lebanese, Tajik or Indian accession to the European Union.--Tekleni 08:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And what? Greenland is in America, and it was a member of European Community. Russia is a member of European Council, but no Russian living in the Asian part of the country will say that he lives in Europe, just as no French living in S.American possessions of France will say he lives in Europe. Belarus is not a member of EC, but fully European. Living in country-member of EC does not mean anything. EC considered accention of various countries, even those situater very far from Europe.--Nixer 15:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That is the point; a country or territory does not have to be located within Europe for it's residents to be considered European or for their nation to be part of the European cultural sphere. Cyprus is well outside of Europe's boundaries, but it is neither an 'African' nor a 'Asian' country. The Question we are asking is not 'Is Armenia in Europe?' but 'Is Armenia part of Europe?' It should be fairly obvious to anyone familiar with the nation that Armenia has more in common with Greece and Russia than with Tajikistan, India, or Lebanon. In any case, if Armenia is an Asian country, so is the Republic of Cyprus.The Myotis 23:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If Russian lives in Moscow he says he lives in Europe. If Russian lives in Novosibirsk, he says he lives in Asia and never says he is in Europe. And what does say Armenian in Yerevan? That he lives in Europe? Very funny. Declaring Armenia a part of Europe is even more nonsence than to declare Vladivostok "part of Europe". And to those who familiar with the Armenian affairs is clear that Armenia has nothing common with Greece at present (except religion, which also something differs), while President of Lebanon is Armenian and there is a large Armenian diaspora in Iran. By the way, India has much in common with Britain, but Indians do not count themselves European. Every former Soviet republic influenced by Russia, but those situated in Asia consider themself Asian, not European.--Nixer 10:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Armenia has much in common with Greece, both historically and culturally. Argentina also has a large Armenian population, does this make the Armenians South American? The governor of California is a naturalized Austrian immigrant, it doesn't make the Austrians North American. -- Augustgrahl 14:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * All countries in the Middle East (from Lebanon to India) connected to Greece both culturally and historically. India connected both to Greece and Britain, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan connected to Russia, Australia connected to Britain, Argentina connected to Spain, but we do not say those countries European.--Nixer 21:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you need to say why we don't call them European, they don't seem to understand how this could be hurtful to Europeans.--Caligvla 00:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Please enlighten us, Caligvla, why would Europeans be 'hurt' if they found themselves classed as Europeans? Are Armenians "inferior" to all other European people? Or are you just worried about cultural infusion? Certainly Armenia is culturally more European than any other nation in Anatolia or the Caucuses, and if that was really your interest, you would spend more time debating the nation of Turkey. Hungary and Finland probably have less in common with the majority of Europeans than most Armenians do (particularly considering language). So unless you define European solely by genes, there is no way Europeans would suffer from association with Armenians.
 * Russia may be ‘connected’ with Tajikistan and Kazakhstan, but the only real connections are economic and political – in that the Soviet Empire possessed them for a short period of time. The cultural impact of the Russians on these countries is obviously not significant. Also, according to Nixer’s logic, since most of Russia is in Asia, then Russia must be a mostly Asian country. That is, if we are to define a country by its geographic location, after all. Since Cyprus is well outside the Boundaries of Europe, should all Cypriots are Asian? Iceland is closer to North American than Europe; should Iceland, therefore, be an American Nation? The question, again since Nixer did not see it the first time, is not where Armenia is but what it is. And to say that modern Armenia has nothing in common with modern Greece is an obvious fallacy. Huge similarities in religion aside, the Armenian alphabet (written from left to right, with capital and lowercase letters, many of which are clearly Greek and Latin in origin) is obviously related to the Greek one, with nothing in common with the Semitic characters used by cultures throughout the Middle East. Through the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires often lived together in mixed communities and were more or less part of the same nation, absorbing the same customs and ideas. Even today, Armenia has stronger political and cultural ties with Greece than any other nation in the world.
 * Again, I must point out that the situation with Armenia is almost identical to that of Cyprus. If Nixer or Caligvla would care to give me their definition (European or Asian) of that nation, I think it would greatly help me understand their point of view.The Myotis 02:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Not only the USSR, but also Imperial Russia possessed these regions and cultural impact is great: Russian is the state language in Kazakhstan and known by the majority of population and Kazakh language itself uses Cyrillic alphabet. Compare with Greece and Armenia: nobody in Armenia knows Greek or uses Greek alphabet. Yes it was culturally connected to Greece some time in the past, just as many other Asian countries, but is not now. Saying Armenia is more connected to Greece than any other nation is unprovable nonsence (as I already pointed out, Armenian language has fewer Greek borrowings than Russian or English or most other European languages). Even if so, it does not prove anything: Greenland is culturally connected to Denmark and uses Latin alphabet but we do not call this country European. Russia is clearly a transcontinental country (with most territory lying in Asia and most people living in Europe), but Armenia is not.--Nixer 09:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, you ignored my question on Cyprus. Since I have mentioned it three times, I can only guess that you have been ducking it. Since Kazakhstan also has territory in both Europe and Asia - by almost everybody’s definition - you might as well call it a transcontinental nation too, considering the period of Russia cultural influence has been a historical blink of an eye. And for the claim that Armenian has less Greek loanwords than English (BTW virtually nobody in the US or UK uses the Greek Alphabet or speaks Greek either. In terms of %, there are probably more Greek-speaking Armenians than Greek-speaking Americans, Russians, or Britons. There are actually quite a few native Greeks in the country) I would certainly like to see some sources to prove you did not just make it up off the top of your head. Greenland, in case you have not noticed, is also considered part of Europe. Check the Greenland Wiki article; it is worded very similar to the header of Armenia. Go rant there too, if you like. But if Greenland, Iceland, and Cyprus can be part of Europe, why not Armenia? I certainly wouldn't say Greenland has an 'American Culture'.The Myotis 02:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with calling Cyprus Asian too. Greenland is certainly is not part of Europe just as Brasil, Argentina, Cuba or Australia.--Nixer 08:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Then you do not respect the Hellenic Republic, the coutries of Europe, or majority opinion in general.The Myotis 00:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * How did you come to this conclusion? When saying that Siberia is in Asia do I disrespect Russia, Council of Europe etc etc etc?--Nixer 06:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Nobody cares about Siberia, it is neither a country nor a ethnic entity. Most european countries (Greece in Particular) see Cyprus as a European nation (and Armenia the same way). To completely alienate these countries from the European cultural sphere based soley on geography is to ignore the positions of the nations of Europe, the international community, and of these countries themselves. As has been stated numerous times before, we are not discussing geography (where Armenia is) but culture (what Armenia is). The issue is not a single-dimensional as you seem to want it to be.The Myotis 23:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you disagree that geographically Armenia is in Asia and culturally it was influences both from Asia and from Europe?--Nixer 13:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Potential consensus in the Armenia debate
User:Augustgrahl has agreed to the compromise I outlined on his talk page, which is that the sentence Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection and located at the crossroads between Europe and Asia, in the southern Caucasus will be an acceptable replacement for Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe, as long as we also continue to include the sentence about Armenia being a transcontinental nation. User:Eupator has declined to accept this compromise. I have now opened a straw poll on this issue on my talk page. Please add your comments supporting or opposing the proposed change. Walton monarchist89 09:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Why do you evade saying that Armenia is in Asia. Do you contest that of do you simply do not want this fact to be mentioned in the article?--Nixer 15:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it has to do with the fact, that Editors who have the strongtest opposition are from N. America, where Asian = Oritental. However, I don't understand the objection to "Asia Minor"--Caligvla 15:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll-Armenia

 * Support: On the Armenia page, change this sentence Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe to this sentence:  Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection and located at the crossroads between Europe and Asia, in the southern Caucasus.
 * (add supporting comments here)


 * Support:I have support, for this statement.--Hamparzoum 00:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Support:I think it's a fair compromise, although it may also be useful to include the fact that Armenia has a European-style of government and belongs to European political organizations. -- Augustgrahl 14:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Support:I agree to the proposed change as it is written, The 3rd paragraph of the Article mentions that Armenian is a member of the Con. of Europe. In the politics section it mentions the type of govt. So I think those areas are covered. Thanks.--Caligvla 15:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Support:I will agree to this, but it should say between Europe and the Middle East, Armenia doesn't have many links with India, Mongolia or China, but a large part of Iran,(which is in the heart of the Middle East) use to be Armenian property and there are so many Armenian-Iranians so it seems unfair to leave out this deep cultural connection. I will agree to the proposal, there is already an article on Armenian-Iranians so if someone has a hunger for more info. it can be found.--Craig Thomasian 20:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose: Leave this sentence Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe where it is.
 * (add comments here)


 * Strong Oppose The proposed change is very ambiguous while the current version is very clear and concise as well as neutral. The transcontinental portion already covers the "crossroads" issue in a much less ambiguous manner.--Eupator 15:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose While I do not believe that "Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection and located at the crossroads between Europe and Asia, in the southern Caucasus" is at all incorrect, I still think it should be mentioned that Armenia is often considered part of Europe. I have no problem if the above sentence is added to the article, but I think "Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe" should still stay. The two statements do not contradict each other, and so there is no need to replace one with the other.The Myotis 23:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose, per Eupator. I have also explained my position in other talk pages. (If the straw poll will be moved, i will vote there as well). Hectorian 23:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose per above. Also, I think sockpuppet and open proxy checks are an absolute necessity for the result of any poll to be considered reliable, given this history of certain users around here in the sockpuppet field (e.g. User:Wordlytrin).--Tekleni 00:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose, for many reasons besides the inane illogicacy--MarshallBagramyan 01:56, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Additional Comments
 * This poll should be moved to Talk:Armenia and conducted in the orthodox manner. - Francis Tyers · 20:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree with Francis. Never seen that before in my wiki-life! •N i k o S il v e r•  20:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Moved to >> Talk:Armenia. - Francis Tyers · 12:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Replied
Hi - I've replied to your question on my talk page M a rtinp23 20:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

RfA
Good luck with your RfA! As you will see, I have commented. It's probably not the comment you entirely wanted. If I can convert you to the use of edit summaries, I am quite willing to change my vote. I do see them as important, especially when looking for something in an article with whose history you are not familiar. Telsa (talk) 07:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Poll
With respect to the above poll (now moved to Talk:Armenia) did you have an idea of how long it should last? - Francis Tyers · 12:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

RfC
we already did an RfC, but I am willing to try again if you think it will help...--Caligvla 09:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Armenia/Archive_2

RFC
An RFC was already opened by Caligvla and it was closed by him. The AMA was the next step. How can you say an RFC is the next step? That's going backwards. You did read the archives right?--Eupator 13:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've been silent up to this point but I have to second this comment. If you had reviewed the history of this dispute, you would see that this ground has already been thoroughly covered.  Positions have been stated ad infinitum. --  Aguerriero  ( talk ) 15:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay let's do AMA then, Eupator you wanna help me out?--Caligvla 16:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Walton, you may want to read WP:NOFEEDING very carefully before you decide whether you want to continue acting for Caligvla.--Tekleni 16:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry - I don't follow that Caligvla - you are already utilising the services of the AMA with Walton here. My major concern now is that this, his talk page, is close to becoming a batteground.  By suggesting an RfC now, Walton is following standard procedure to generate a clear consensus.  It is immaterial whether or not there has already been one - subsequent requests can only serve to increase input from the community.  Should there still be no consensus after the RFC, then a request may be initiated at the mediation cabal or the mediation commitee, though I'd advise that Caligvla, as the advocee, takes careful heed of any advice which Walton offers him/her.  At the moment, Walton is following the dispute resolution guidelines carefully, by attempting to negotiate and form a compromise first, before progressing onto the other stages.  It may be beneficial if, for the period of the RfC, the involved parties try to stay away from the article.  This is disengagement, and may help to calm some of the tempers that have been running high recently - I strongly suggest it.  If, after a week, consensus still can't be formed, and the involved parties have remained disengaged,  I would suggest progressing to mediation.  This is what I feel, having watched the dispute in the hands of the AMA for a while.  The key difference with the RfC this time is that, I hope, all parties will disengage from the article, and look for other articles to improve on wikipedia for at least a week.  Thanks -- M a rtinp23 17:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I must respectfully disagree. The RFC that already occurred was extensive - citations where brought out, debated, there were accusations of sockpuppetry, on and on.  Starting another RFC on the exact same issue is completely counterproductive, and the only result is that this is going to become a stamina contest instead of a reason-driven process.  Before this AMA business even began, I was helping Caligvla follow the dispute resolution process, and had already told him to pursue mediation when the RFC failed to reach consensus.  I don't mean to impugn the work Walton monarchist89 has put in - he has been incredible.  But started this all over again is accomplishing nothing. --  Aguerriero  ( talk ) 18:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see what you mean there - with respect, I am still hugely in favour of disengagemnet for at least a short period of time, before going to mediation. Perhaps a third opinion can be sought (as a smallr scale alternative to an RfC - however this requires good faith, and a willingness amongst all parties to go forward based on the third opinion...this could be an issue in this dispute), so we can exhaust all the non-mediation options first, so minimising stress for all involved.  I too would like to commend Walton's work .  M a rtinp23 18:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Have you seen the latest gem? As for disengagement of the involved parties, that requires protection of several articles. It would send a very wrong message. Basically anyone who contributes to Armenia related topics is involved while the opposition consists of two irregular contributors. --Eupator 23:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

To Walton monarchist89, User:Aguerriero, & User:Martinp23
I appreciate your help and I have heeded all the advice given. I am willing to back off for a week if the others are too. Walton is doing an amazing job, and I hope he gets to be an Admin soon. I honestly feel more of the users would have supported Walton's proposed rephrasing if it wasn't for one user that is just a big bully. They don't want to deal with the stress of this certain user's bellicose attitude. I suggest that you block Eupator, Tekleni, Khoi, and Clevelander for 1 week. You can block me too. And during that week let the others talk it over and discuss it calmly without fear of threats. How about it?--Caligvla 02:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I also think that Walton monarchist89 has done a good job in trying to mediate a very heated dispute. However, blocking people would only serve to disrupt their potentially positive contributions to Wikipedia, especially as Khoi has his administrative duties to attend to. I trust we all can agree to exercize self-restraint here. -- Augustgrahl 03:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * A week tending to our real lives would be very healthy and Khoi has shown a clear pattern of support, I think it's worth a try so the others like yourself can have an open honest debate and come to a rational and fair decision--Caligvla 03:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply
No, I'm not saying you are not being a good advocate, but I am calling Caligvla a troll; this has been going on for weeks only because of two dissenting viewpoints. BTW I stongly advise you to enable your wiki-e-mail at your Special:Preferences before that RFA of yours goes live (i.e. when you link to it at Requests for adminship - so that we can start "voting"); people have lost support because of that in the past.--Tekleni 11:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation cabal
Why not take it there right away? Why should we avoid that? I want a final nail in this coffin!--Eupator 13:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

US Congress
So while I am taking a break from the great Armenian debate. What did you think of the change in Congrees over in the States?--Caligvla 05:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I love it :-) BTW Walton, I also think User:Craig Thomasian may be a sock. Seems to be another single-purpose account.--Tekleni 10:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I wasn't asking you Tek, go away and stop wikistalking me for the next week! Please...--Caligvla 16:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You Said,

''If you want my view, I personally think it was a bit pointless to vote Democrat - they don't have any real alternative plans for pulling troops out of Iraq, and mostly just fought a negative campaign against President Bush. I think it's a mistake when people treat congressional elections as a referendum on the incumbent president - congressional candidates should be judged on their merits, not purely on their party affiliation. So I wasn't keen on the result. (Hence my This user supports George W. Bush userbox; I think it was ultimately right to send troops to topple Saddam Hussein, and I respect Bush for that.) Walton monarchist89 10:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)''

It seemed to be all about the War, and the US population seemed to be able to ignore their fantastic economy. Pelosi, the new speaker of the house, didn't mention much of anything about the war, instead promises of tax increases and increases to the minimum wage. A sure recipe for unemployment and fuel for inflation. I hope Bush stands firm and veto's their nonsense. As for the war I think the US has gone too soft. In their civil war they would lose 30,000 in one battle. 3000 gone and and they act like it's 60% of the population, when it's not even a 1/10th of a percent. Just what is it the troops are doing over there, anyway? Building new roads, schools, hospitals, mobile phone networks. In the past they US broke the will of the enemies before they built them back up. I feel sad for the US, with their new congress, the poorest Americans will be hurt the most if the new congress can push through their counterproductive fiscal policy.--Caligvla 16:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep your eye on this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise#Tekleni --Caligvla 02:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Your RfA
Your RfA is yet to be transcluded (listed) on the main RfA page. If you would still like your RfA to go ahead, add your RfA in the appropriate place on the main page, and change the closing time on your RfA so that it is one week later than when you add your RfA to the main page. Good luck! DarthVad e r 08:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

My RfA
I understand why you voted against my RfA, but I beg you to reconsider. I have now expanded my answer to question (1), and as for the confusion with the RfA interface itself, that was largely due to my having no experience with that particular page and the idiosyncratic way that it works; that shouldn't impede my ability to be a good editor or a good admin. I have worked hard on Wikipedia and made a lot of changes, using my extensive knowledge of certain fields as well as commitment to WP:NPOV. Almost all of my changes have been well-received; and I'm desperate to become an admin. Walton monarchist89 19:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but I do not think I'm going to change to support. I notice that you have made very few edits overall and in the project space (see Wikipedia: contributions) and despite your interest in vandal-fighting, I don't see any evidence in your contributions that you participate in vandal-fighting. Additionally, you can be a good editor without being ready for adminship. That is the category I believe you would fit in to. Thus, I suggest that if this RfA fails you continue to be a good editor and dedicate a bit of time to working in areas that administrators will need experience in (WP:AfD is a good place to look). Sometime before you seek adminship again, it may be a good idea to open an editor review to get some feedback on your progress. Some admin coaching may be beneficial as well. However, please don't see adminship as a validation of your hard work toward improving Wikipedia. You don't need adminship to show you are an asset to the project, and thus there is really no need to be desperate to become an admin. Just take your time and return when you have a great amount of experience and Wiki-knowledge under your belt; adminship is first and foremost about serving Wikipedia. --  tariq abjotu  19:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

RE: Armenia
Hi - I'm glad you've decided to follow the disengagement advice (and the relevant part of WP:DR) - I feel that medcab or medcom should only really come after we've exhausted the other parts of WP:DR (in most cases, at least). As for the dififculty of most AMA cases - we really get a wide range, from impossible difficult content disputes such as these (which are invariably the hardest) to some issues which are simple cases of vandalism, or a policy misunderstanding which is easily rectified. All in all, the difficulty depends on who you're dealing with, and of course this (should) be different every time. Hope this answers your question at least partly! M a rtinp23 19:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi - there is notihng at all to stop you from taking multiple cases (some advocates have been on five or six at once). It may help to set up a user sub-page at User:Walton monarchist89/Desk on which you can organise and archive AMA cases - it helps to keep the talk page more useable!  Thanks - M a rtinp23 17:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Your RfA
Hi. Your RfA was posted and gone before I had a chance to comment on it, but I saw your comments on the talk pages of a couple of the people who opposed. It's up to you whether you stay a part of Wikipedia or not, but if advice from a stranger is worth anything, I would urge that you remain here and continue editing. You don't need admin buttons to edit articles, which is the most fun thing to be done. I thought the comments about your needing some more editing experience before becoming an administrator made sense, but whether you agree with them or not, there is no reason to let them spoil your hobby here. Whatever you decide, be well. Regards, Newyorkbrad 20:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you feel that way. Unfortunately your response to the oppose votes will only hurt you if you ever decide to reapply for adminship. You've effectively shot yourself in the foot. If you do desire the tools and responsibilities that go along with the job then I suggest you start a new account and try to gain the trust of Wikipedia's community with a clean slate. KazakhPol 20:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I accept your apology. I believe I understand why you were upset. My only suggestion from now until you reapply is to look at other users answers to the questions on their nominations for adminships and to try to demonstrate exemplary behavior. Civility is weighed significantly in voting. KazakhPol 20:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * WM, I'm glad you're feeling better. Please see my comment above if you haven't already. Newyorkbrad 21:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't have anything personal against your RfA comments, as I know how you feel. I suggest you keep working at it and trying to improve yourself, and I guarantee that I will support you if you decide to re-apply again in the future when you have more edits and more experience. In the meanwhile, continue editing. Wikipedia is not about adminship, but about sharing knowledge with the world. I don't want to see a valued Wikipedian leave the website just because they were a bit upset by the results of their RfA. I hope you reconsider, and I accept your apology.  Nish kid 64  23:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hang in there you can always try again, I will be here to support you!--Caligvla 05:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Userboxes
Sure, go ahead.--Eupator 15:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You've got mail
I've answered your post at Esperanza/Admin coaching.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to invite you to the virtual classroom...

We've just moved on to our second lesson, though each lesson is continuous so we may see more additions to the interface share and compare discussion as well. The current topic of discussion is "stubbing," with a short course to kick things off provided by our resident expert on the subject, Grutness.

To help keep track of what's going on, here's a template you can place at the top of your userpage or talk page:

Hope to see you at the Virtual classroom soon.  Th e Tr ans <font color="#FFCC00">hu  man  ist    13:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Userboxes
for some reason your user boxes looked messed up in firefox I'll try to sort em out, if you don't like it just revert.

BTW did you hear the news about Milton Friedman? I am completly heartbroken, he is why I became an economist.--Caligvla 15:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)--Caligvla 15:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Mexican general election controversies RfA
Sure, I would really like your help. What is the next step? -- Felipec 19:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Reverting vandalism
When reverting severe vandalism such as to Department of Homeland Security it's best to do it all at once. The vandal replaced Homeland with Homo and was certainly not acting in good faith. --<font face="Verdana"><font color="SteelBlue">Elar a <font color="SteelBlue">girl  Talk 14:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, as a rule, I don't go to AIV unless the vandal in question is going crazy, and if at all possible I recommend the 24-hour blocks. Still, vandal fighting is a nuanced type of thing. It helps when you have VandalFighter, which breaks down what's happening more accurately than VP does, but sometimes even the best tools blow it, and you have to go in and look the whole article over. Glad to be fighting the Good Fight with you. :) --<font face="Verdana"><font color="SteelBlue">Elar a <font color="SteelBlue">girl  Talk 14:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Joining the CVU
Yeah, just add your name to the list of members, and you might want to add the userbox (if you're into userboxen).

Also, they have some excellent vandal fighting tools, such as Lupin's JS tool, VandalFighter, and Vandal Proof. There's no big membership requirement. --<font face="Verdana"><font color="SteelBlue">Elar a <font color="SteelBlue">girl  Talk 13:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to the AMA
Hello Walton monarchist89. I am Wikiwoohoo 18:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC), deputy co-ordinator of the AMA. I wanted to say extend my thanks to you for joining the AMA. Just a note, the association's current meeting is now on at AMA Meeting/December 2006. If you would like to comment on any of the ongoing discussion then you are very welcome to. I hope to see you around. Wikiwoohoo 18:39, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Admin coaching, etc.
Are you ready to get started?

The waiting time over at Admin coaching is long (some people have been waiting in line since July). I'm an admin coach with the project, and for my students I set up a group discussion page so that we could all learn from each other. The scope of this concept has expanded into the Virtual classroom, which is an open forum for the teaching and learning of advanced Wikipedia skills.

Anyone and everyone is welcome to participate, as a student, as a coach, or both. Every week or two a new major topic of discussion or classroom assignment is introduced, usually with a guest writer who presents his or her expertise on the current subject and who remains on hand to answer questions. Everyone is encouraged to participate in the discussions, such as sharing your expertise, asking and answering questions, etc.

The current topic of discussion is vandalism, and our guest writer is Budgiekiller.

All discussions are open-ended, so all previous discussion topics and classroom assignments are still there for viewing and further participation. There are also sections for posting miscellaneous topics and questions, requesting coaching assistance, etc.

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I hope to see you there. Sincerely,   Th  e Tr <font color="#9acd32">ans <font color="#FFCC00">hu  man  ist    07:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

User:BSA Archery
I just tagged User:BSA Archery's article Camp Mosey Wood with a prod for deletion due to no notoriety, and then noticed that you had AfD'd very recently and he had subsequently removed the tag, so I left a little note asking him not to do that along with my notification of a prod on his article. Hope that is okay, SGGH 12:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * He's now deleted the prod tag too SGGH 12:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Wilco SGGH 16:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)