User talk:WatermanFF3

February 2010
Unfortunately, your addition to Swimfin has been removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without permission from the copyright holder. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions have to be deleted. You are encouraged to use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of article content such as sentences or images. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and has a policy on copyright that you would find valuable to read. The information you added would have been useful, but it was copied directly from http://justflippers.com/tag/fin-types/ – which is copyright 2010 Just Flippers. -- RexxS (talk) 19:22, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

No Copyright violation on Force Fin material
Response to RexSS subject material is my original material, posted to wikipedia on November 13, 2009 -- see article history for verification. Subject article was posted to wordpress on November 15, 2009. I've undid your deletion for copyright violation, as there is none.


 * Please accept my apologies, but I hope you'll understand that it's safer to remove prima facie copyright violations, and sort it out at leisure (easy enough to restore as you have done), rather than risk having copyright violations in the encyclopedia any longer than we can avoid. I actually was going through doing a copyedit when I found the Just Flippers article, so I'll go back and start the copyedit again. As an aside, you may need to take up the question of copyright with Just Flipper as they seem to be claiming their copyright on your work (whoever posted it), particularly as you can show that you retain the copyright to your text, since you have released it under a CC-by-SA licence here. --RexxS (talk) 21:39, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Your recent edits
Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. --SineBot (talk) 17:31, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, I figured that out and signed as an edit, but may have missed the one. WatermanFF3 (talk) 18:39, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Reversion of material in Swimfin.
I've reverted your re-insertion of material at Swimfin, and explained my reasons at Talk:Swimfin. Please read WP:EW and feel free to respond to the discussion. --RexxS (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I see you have re-inserted your material once again. I have taken the time to explain to you WP:CoI and WP:RS and why your sources do not meet it. The fact that you are edit-warring to keep your material in the article against two other editors now leads me to the conclusion that you are only interested in promotion of your product. Wikipedia is not the place for advertising and you are in violation of WP:PROMOTION. Before I take a report to WP:ANI, I am obliged to give you notice and the opportunity to revert your edit. Here is my summary of the edits and the guidance you were offered:


 * 13 November 2009, 11:31 - considerably expands a minor section of Swimfin, concerning a product called "Force Fin"" using four references to http://www.forcefin.com/ plus one to the US patent office and one to the NY Museum of Modern Art. The text includes multiple claims about Force Fins that rely only on the Force Fin site. + 5 subsequent
 * 28 November2009, 02:44 - reverts the edits as "clear spam".
 * 2 February 2010, 18:32 - WatermanFF3 re-inserts the text.
 * 2 February 2010, 19:19 - reverted good faith edits by WatermanFF3 as copyvio of http://justflippers.com/tag/fin-types/.
 * 2 February 2010, 20:51 - WatermanFF3 re-inserts the text, claiming to be the original author.
 * 6 February 2010, 03:49 - Clovis Sangrail raises concerns on my (RexxS) talk page that WatermanFF3 put the material there for purely promotional reasons, and explains to me that the same text has been inserted and removed a number of times. he also points out that did the same in the past.
 * 6 February 2010, 03:49 - Considering that, I offer my support to Clovis Sangrail's proposal to cut down the material inserted by WatermanFF3.
 * 6 February 2010, 06:13 - Clovis Sangrail drastically cuts down the material leaving the US Patent office cite and the designer's claim, referenced to http://www.forcefin.com/wiseword-terra.htm as "Reduce promotional and unverifiable material".
 * 9 February 2010, 16:42 - WatermanFF3 re-adds part of the text "consider[ing] the edits as vandalism".
 * 9 February 2010, 16:42 - WatermanFF3 re-adds the rest of the text "Deletion again w/o specific reason by same parties noticed as vandalism".
 * 9 February 2010, 17:04 - WatermanFF3 posts on my talk page claiming the material is third party verifiable, and stating that "Another blanket deletion will be considered by me as vandalism".
 * 9 February 2010, 17:21 - WatermanFF3 posts on my talk page disclosing that he is "a principal in Force Fin" and notifying me that "blanket removal is hereby noticed as vandalism".
 * 9 February 2010, 18:57 - I make a lengthy response explaining our concept of policies, the WP:CoI policy, the lack of relevance of the Museum of Modern Art to Swimfins, the need for third-party sources in WP:RS, the importance of keeping text relevant to the article subject, and the WP:Vandalism policy.
 * 9 February 2010, 18:57 - I remove the material again "re-addition of material either irrelevant or not supported by a WP:RS".
 * 9 February 2010, 19:10 - (presumed WatermanFF3) defends the links to http://www.forcefin.com/ and politely questions my motivations, finishing by asking "If there is a better way to make these statements and still give the reader the information they desire".
 * 9 February 2010, 19:10 - I insist that the other forcefin.com links should not be re-inserted as they are not an independant source, and explain why the wiki-links do not support the claims either, requesting that he should not ascribe my motives to anything more than a desire to maintain our policies. I conclude by suggesting he find reliable, third-party sources first, then write the text, rather than writing what he thinks "the readers desire" and trying to source it.
 * 9 February 2010, 19:53 - WatermanFF3 re-adds the text again.http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swimfin&diff=next&oldid=342983291]


 * I count six insertions of the promotional text (including WatermanFF2). I now conclude that your sole purpose here is to promote Force Fins using Wikipedia as a vehicle. That is an offence which could lead you to being banned by the community. User:Gene Hobbs has offered you the solution of developing an article on Force Fins, but a refusal at this point to remove the promotional material from Swimfin will result in my making a report calling for you to be banned. --RexxS (talk) 22:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Swim fins
Hi WatermanFF3, as a WP:SPA WP:COI account, it would be best if you refrain from editing the Swim fin or related articles. As I am sure you know, per WP:V and WP:RS, Wikipedia is focused on verifiable published reliable sources, which generally precludes promotional material on manufacturers' websites. If there is a scientific paper by a third party evaluating a product, the source for it should be an independent publication, not a promotional website. Here is my advice to you, based on some experience: You believe in your product, and want to promote it, which is fine. But if you push too hard in doing so, you'll end up with less, because your Wikipedia account and any supportive sock accounts will be blocked, giving you less influence over the content. The most reasonable and effective route for you is to provide links to third party sources (e.g. independent evaluations published by scientific groups, dive magazines or consumer reports on their own websites or publications) on the talk page, and let independent editors edit the article. Do not provide long verbose explanations why and how the product is good; provide lists of links to independent sources which review the product. Please read the above WP:V and WP:RS policies, as well as WP:COI, then try to provide those independent sources on independent publications, and sit on the sidelines to be effective. Thanks, Crum375 (talk) 13:01, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Ryan Lindsey
Hi WatermanFF3, If you could contact Mr. Lindsey, the Rubicon Research Repository would love to have his thesis included in the thesis collection. This does make your ability to use it here stronger and helps build the general knowledge available to researchers worldwide. He can contact us here if he is interested. Thanks! --Gene Hobbs (talk) 15:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Gene, that is a very good idea. Its a well designed study. As the proud mother and soon-to-be mother in law of a pair of recent PhD graduates, from CalTech which is unique in its funding availability, I know how rare it is for a Masters student in a State University to have the funding to do more than limited testing. Given the prevalence and risk associated with cramping, its more general circulation may help to push for positive change for all divers. To me at least its conclusion un-controvertible. If your toes are being pulled into hyper-extension by the load of a fin blade extending from the end of your foot, and you have to hold your toes pointed to keep a proper angle of attack for the fin to provide propulsion behind you, you are consistently holding the muscles of your lower leg contracted while kicking, exercising. Basic exercise physiology tells you that you will cramp. If you free up the toes, the fin blade extends from your leg, the toes point and flex with each kick, that releases the contraction that is causing the cramping.

Just took a look at your profile. Wow! You should meet Bob Evans. WatermanFF3 (talk) 19:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC)