User talk:WesleyDodds/Archive 4

One day will be improved
I'm more or less decided that once "three studies'" is&mdash;god willing&mdash;out of the way, Joy Division will be the next major project. We're going to have to rewrite the entire article of course; but its such a great story, and there are so many sources. Both Curtis and Sumner were quite naive, while Hooky was, well Hooky; leading to much hilarity along the way. You don't get many sentences containing both "Curtis" and "hilarity"; but I think its important not to write an overly depressing article. Ceoil 21:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Your input here is needed, bty. Ceoil 22:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oddly, The NME did not review "Just like Heaven", and none of the sources have indexed Sounds issues from that year, and have knocked me back. Ceoil 22:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

April is the cruelest month...
...'cause of the all $&@(&! time I spent educating myself about (&%##!@ heavy &@((*&^@ metal! You and your %*&&%@*%(* project solicitations...

(deep breath)...You know, I drew a line in the sand--I swore I'd quit the &$$&*% HM project as soon as someone asked "What about Hawkwind?" To my surprise, it never happened. And so now my brain has had to make room for the distinctions between symphonic black metal, symphonic power metal, and symphonic %^#$#&^% doom metal with extra foam and a dash of ^%$%*@#! cinnamon.

Joy Divison? Absolutely. A project to be proud of. A project of pleasurable research. A project where I won't have to mumble into my thorax when someone asks me about what I've been up to lately. And wouldn't you know, "Another musician who has claimed Hawkwind as an influence is Joy Division/New Order bassist Peter Hook, who took his father to a Hawkwind concert as a teenager in an attempt to help him appreciate rock music in a more visceral fashion."—DCGeist 05:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Music notation
I extracted it from a paper analysing the Pixies' music. Makes for interesting reading. However, I haven't found an analysis of the Smashing Pumpkins' music. The good news is that I've got a tablature of "Today," and I can translate it to musical notation. CloudNine 16:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you just want the solo guitar at the start? That's a bar long, and repeats four times. CloudNine 16:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Now available at Image:TodayIntro.JPG, complete with fair use rationale (although I'm not sure of the licensing). Let me know of any improvements. CloudNine 08:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Pearl Jam page
Hi. I just want to say I really like the improvements to the Pearl Jam page that you did. I went and added the first three album covers if that's OK. If you need any help along the way in improving the article then I'll see what I can do. Thanks.BP322 04:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * FYI, I've nominated Pearl Jam at GAC. It's a great example of what a good COTW can do. CloudNine 21:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

No luck on Pearl Jam photos from back in the day (at first glance). We'll need to go trawling and ask someone to release again methinks. - Phorque 15:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Pondering...
...It's tough, really tough, this alternative rock business. I do get it, believe me. I'm contemplating Jemstone66's recent entry on the article's Talk thread. I'm contemplating my personal resistance to asserting that "alternative rock" denotes a "genre." I'm contemplating what new line I can come up with for DyK--"pogue mahone" has worked nicely, but now I'm thinking perhaps something in Sanskrit, which he should appreciate, guru that DyK is. At any rate, I'm contemplating. First thought: should we, essentially ignoring the existence of the indie rock article, characterize "indie rock" in the lead of the alternative rock article as the UK synonym and thus, per Wikistyle, bold it (just like "alternative music" and "alternative")? If we're going to list a few leading bands from each side of the ocean in the lead--and, yes, I think we should--wouldn't such an adjustment be necessary? Otherwise, we risk encouraging the limeys to argue--and with reason--that we're off-base: "The Smiths and MBV aren't 'alternative,' they're indie."—DCGeist 07:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Great, I'll take a look at those sources and think about what bands should be Wikinointed. I don't think including "indie" as an alternate (good pun) term in the lead is necessarily awkward:


 * Alternative rock (also called alternative music, simply alternative and, especially in Britain, indie) is a genre...


 * That's accurate enough, and goes a fair way toward addressing these redcoats' legitimate concerns. I'd then take "indie rock" out of the lead section--the juxtaposition of the terms might well be confusing before the explanation, which is handled nicely in the immediately following Term section.—DCGeist 16:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That's excellent--and The Cure and R.E.M. are right there as the examples (...as well as Love and Rockets...oy). Does this qualify as "earliest published example of term unambiguously used in its present-day sense located to date"?


 * On other points: (a) Yes, go ahead and email me the sources you were talking about; (b) I've made the edit to the article as discussed (with a slight ce); see what you think--maybe another subgenre should be added in the space formerly occupied by "indie rock" (whose reduplicative [yesss!!] umbrella term nature was part of my issue with it in the lead); (c) I don't know a word of Sanskrit, but for a mission as noble and righteous as this, I'd learn Tocharian A and B.—DCGeist 16:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Little something I found doing a Google Book search on the exact phrase "alternative rock" for books published between 1980 and 1990. From a 1987 government document, Home Audio Recording Act: Hearings Before the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, and reconstructed from annoying li'l "snippet views":


 * [MCA Records President Myron] Roth says the courtship of IRS likewise centered on another idiom considered weak in the MCA fold, alternative rock and pop: "We saw [IRS] as an educational process for us. We already had Oingo Boingo and were developing several English and Australian acts. We needed to learn how to handle that market more effectively." Country dictated a similar move, although the need for a realignment was less obvious. (p. 401)


 * That strikes me as a pretty clear use of the phrase to identify the genre under discussion--IRS obviously being one of the seminal alternative rock labels. By the way, the same search turns up Charles D. Neal's Tape Delay: Confessions from the Eighties Underground (also 1987), but I searched through it via both Google Book and Amazon Search-in-Book, and the actual phrase, or anything similar, in fact seems not to appear.—DCGeist 17:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we can definitely push this back to 1986–87, when Jon Pareles was using the term in the New York Times:


 * Two songwriters [Steve Earle and Jason Ringenberg of Jason and the Scorchers] who promise to revitalize country music - or country-rock, or rock-and-roll - are appearing in successive shows tonight in association with the College Media Journal convention of alternative rock. (October 31, 1986)


 * On August 30, 1987, he refers to "alternative rock (like R.E.M. and Suzanne Vega)." On October 2, 1987, he refers to the "alternative rock circuit." On December 29, 1987, he uses the phrase repeatedly in an article on college radio. See this article from 1989 for an early attempt at definition: "A New Kind of Rock". That same year, other Times contributors, such as John Leland, start using the phrase. On August 2, 1989, Stephen Holden writes, "The Pixies, who will appear at the Ritz on Friday evening, are on of the country's two or three most popular alternative rock bands."


 * Back to 1986: The Los Angeles Times uses the phrase in several articles describing the format shift (to heavy metal) of an area radio station. This is the first, written by Patrick Goldstein: "KNAC's format change has caused an uproar, especially among listeners who had loyally supported the Long Beach-based station's eclectic, alternative-rock play list" (January 19, 1986).—DCGeist 19:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Etymology is clearly one of my main interests. So the first cite that's of real interest to you would be the 1989 Pareles piece, yes?


 * On a fringe of mainstream rock, a new style is coalescing. The loose network of college (and a few commercial) radio stations, rock-club disk jockeys and active music fans that sent R.E.M. into the Top 10 has nurtured an "alternative rock" that's more melodic than post-punk hard-core rock yet looser, more unruly and less formulaic than big-budget productions such as Bon Jovi. In a few years, alternative rock (probably with a better name) is likely to be just one more commercial genre, but for the moment rock careerists share it with misfits, idealists and other do-it-yourselfers.


 * It's guitar music first of all, with guitars that blast out power chords, pick out chiming riffs, buzz with fuzztone and squeal in feedback. Those guitars are topped by regular-guy voices - and, very occasionally, a regular gal - proclaiming cynicism, confusion, hostility, self-mockery, disillusionment and sardonic humor, along with hints of well-guarded sincerity.


 * The three examples whose records are reviewed are Field Trip, The Buck Pets, and Dinosaur Jr., demonstrating that Pareles is using the term very much as it came to be widely understood. Worth quoting?—DCGeist 20:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Capitalisation
Please see WP:MOS with regard to capitalisation. --Mel Etitis ( Talk ) 17:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Kurt Cobain
Working on it now. Reading through the current version of the article, I spot a lot of pro-Cobain phrases; for example, I removed "he remains a legend in the rock world, 13 years after his death." My view on the suicide dispute section is that it should be moved into another article (I'm not sure if it was and then deleted?), and summarised. I've seen a TV programme or two (and there's Last Days) that focuses just on Cobain's last days and suicide. CloudNine 19:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Some of the text I deleted was restored. I'm entertaining the thought of starting a 'Sexuality' section, but since it was never an active choice he made (he merely mused about homosexuality), I'm not sure if its suitable. What are your thoughts on citing documentaries? I might able to get hold of a British documentary that goes over his early life and death. CloudNine 19:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply and Request
Hey man, I've added as much as I can to Triptych, May-June 1973, and its still very short, and off topic in places. Can you see any areas I've missed; I'm racking my brains to say more. A stear here from you would be much appreciated.

Re: Kurt Cobain, I find the whole conspiracy thing very creepy, and my skin crawled when I saw Broomfield's film. In the article, I think you need to reposition the context before the bullet list, or maybe abandon the bullet format altogether. To be honest, I don't think this kind of thing deserves such detailed analysis. I don't know your openion, but my openion is that it's driven by guys trying to sell books. Its archive time, bty. Ceoil 22:29, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * At least we are not the only ones sharing space with this **** Ceoil 00:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

UK charts for "Today"
Are you sure that "Today" charted in the UK? According to EveryHit.com, it did not. Do you know of any other reliable UK chart archives? Thanks, --Brandt Luke Zorn 21:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Oasis Genres
Can't anything be done about the idiot who keeps adding psychedelic rock to Oasis's genres? He is the only one out of a much larger amount of people who obviously disagree -- this isn't his personal fan site. Can't we cast a vote on the talk page for whether or not Oasis is in fact psychedelic rock, & once the vote inevitably comes out that they are not, it will be considered vandalism for him to keep changing it? This is just getting ridiculous -- he isn't being constructive at all, just incredibly biased & petty. ——Anthonylombardi 22:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I've already left a message for him on his talk page, which he completely & totally disregarded; he's been doing this for weeks now, a few more days won't make any difference. Where would be the appropriate place to go to file a complaint with an administrator? ——Anthonylombardi 01:06, 19 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to let you know that I filed a complaint & the problem has been taken care of -- he was banned for 31 hours. Happy editing. ——Anthonylombardi 06:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Smashing Pumpkins

 * So they're on Reprise now? That's good to know, I guess.  Virgin really screwed 'em over. JuJube 01:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Three studies
Many thanks. I can't resolve "The work represents a summary of themes explored in Bacon's previous paintings", Tony's right - its clunky and unclear; any ideas? Ceoil 16:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't keep old NME's, but if the link is dead try the internet archive, or the waybackmachine. If you mail me I can pass on the key to a good resource for this kind of thing. Ceoil 20:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * In my experience Sandy is always right. Some people are like that; and annoying as it may be, I'd go with her judgment. Ceoil 20:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't forget to vote on 3 studies bty, either way you want. I'm being hammered at the moment, would appreciate a review that extended beyond a 30 second viewing. Ceoil 21:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That's fine. To be honest I'd prefer a qualified comment, and I realise the prose need work in areas. Ceoil 06:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Smells Like Teen Spirit
No prob (it sure was boring work, but the ball game is blacked out today :-) Good luck on the main page ! Sandy Georgia (Talk) 21:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding some WP:DASH changes I made at Smells Like Teen Spirit, better stay tuned to this conversation on my talk page. Hopefully we'll get an answer from Tony by tomorrow, and certainly before you go to the main page.  Regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 00:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Wesley, I suggest you ask the opinion of, explaining what you said on my page. Who moved it?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * moved it; but if that's the name of the song (with caps), our cap conventions don't apply. What is the actual name of the song?   Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Just like Heaven (song)
It's just about there. The lead could use a little expanding, which shouldn't be hard. The only other thing is that there's some stuff that still needs referencing. The uncited information in the Music and lyrics section looks like OR without citations. You'll need a citation about Smith's favorite version too. The Music video section could use a screenshot, but I don't think that'll keep it from GA. ShadowHalo 02:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Beef up
A second lead para, and it's there. What else can be said, its a great article. Ceoil 22:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No, no. It's grand. Ceoil 22:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Just state the obvious; and your there. Ceoil 22:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Pearl Jam
I have passed this GA nomination, it is now listed at WP:GA. I saw that you've done a lot of work on it so I thought I'd notfiy you. Please see my notes in passing it. Good work and keep it up. Quadzilla99 00:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Minutemen
Just a quick question - do you think the Minutemen are "alternative" or not? (i.e. should we include them under the project?) All Music Guide says they produced "alternative pop/rock" and "post-punk". CloudNine 17:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Smells Like Teen Spirit addition
Why did you remove my addition to this article. If you heard the show I posted a link to, you'd know that it explore the history and importance of the song my playing many interesting and varied cover versions.

Caped Crusade
OK, I appreciate that you wish to bring Batman to the standard of Superman, but don't you think Gotham deserves mention? Afterall, if we're being out-of-universe, Gotham is notable for being the setting of the adventures of Batman. Alientraveller 18:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest you keep it, unless you want to go to WP:FAR if you want to bring to people's attention that the article is really GA-level in your eyes, although there's nothing wrong with Batman not being Superman (ahem). I could suggest it being pushed aside to Batman in popular culture, being a relatively minority perception. Alientraveller 18:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Keeping It Simple and Wrong
Patti Smith's version of Teen Spirit is not a folk version. Where have you ever seen a reference to Patti Smith as a folk artist? And what makes it distinctive is that it contains a piece of her poetry. And there's no such thing as a cover album. There's a cover song, or an album of covers. Aarkangel 07:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Your most recent phrasing of the section is better. My concern was how it was worded before, with the description of "distinctive" elements she is "known for". Additionally, I haven't heard the Patti Smith cover, so I was erring on the side of caution with another editor who apparently had heard it. Anyway, as it stands the sentence as it is is fine now. WesleyDodds 23:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm no Wikipedia expert (as you can no doubt tell) but why do you delete our conversation from your Talk page (unlike the ones below)? It might be that some people are interested in finding out that Patti Smith is not a folk artist, or that people in Wikipedia edit stuff about songs they've never heard or don't really know about.

Now I take your stylistic points on board regarding objectivity. That said, the version you have now created has the word "cover" in twice in a short sentence and uses the phrase "cover song" which is a non-existent phrase. There is a certain arrogance about the way you edit which, if you don't mind me being frank, is not justified by your command of the English language or knowledge of music. I think a little more sensitivity in reversions and edits can be a big help in making Wikipedia a more enjoyable experience for the majority of the active users. Aarkangel 07:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your prompt response and explanation on my Talk page. The fact is the sentence is now better, so job done!

Well done on steering this article through its development. I enjoyed reading it - the part I'd like to see further expanded is the meaning of lyrics section, but perhaps there's little more known about them. Aarkangel 08:02, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way it was seeing Patti Smith perform her version brilliantly last week at London's Roundhouse which prompted me to check out the article. More about that here: http://aarkangel.wordpress.com/2007/05/18/songlines/ Aarkangel 08:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Radiohead
Sure thing. I'll have a look at it. :D - Alex valavanis 09:34, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Main page!
I saw that and was delighted, well done sir. Just goes to show that the request page is a pointless affair. Bty the promotion before the official close was due to an internet cafe edit from Briton beach. Thanks for the PR offer, I'll definitely take you up on that. I'm going though another heavy Mogwai period in my life right now (as you Americans say); "Tracy", "Superheroes Of BMX", "Mogwai Fear Satan", "Katrien" - any interest in a collab. of the week. This is reason enough in my book, all hail Mogwai. Ceoil 21:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * As a side note, I'm guessing you don't have Soulseek, and am wondering why. Ceoil 21:24, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * When britpop happened I was crushed. Out with MBV, Dead can Dance, Cocteau Twins; in with Sleeper, Geane, Kula Shaker. That whole episode is only redeemed-and only just-by "Coffey and TV", and Pulp. The sorrow, the pity, the wolves. Ceoil 22:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * My third last post was less motivated by whoring than by the msg who buys CDs these days. Futhermore, you friendofafriend was bang on - go back and listen to MBV properly - outside of "Vapour trail" and "OX4", what songs do Ride have?. Tisk. Ceoil 22:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I like that too. I'm comprised. Ceoil 23:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Alternative music WikiProject newsletter
Delivered by CloudNine 19:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Rich Girl (Gwen Stefani song)
I've taken Rich Girl (Gwen Stefani song) to FAC, and it's only gotten one minor oppose due to some copyediting issues. I've gone through the article and I can't find anything more, but I'm not sure if there's just nothing left or if I've worked with the article too long to see any problems. You were really helpful with the What You Waiting For? article, so would you mind looking through this one to see if there are any remaining copyediting issues? ShadowHalo 22:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

God Hates Us All
Hi Wesley, as you probably know GHUA is at FAC, i was hoping you could take a look and see if there are any errors. If you don't have the time then no problem, and thanks for the help providing the Guitar World information. :) M3tal H3ad 08:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Batbooks
ISBN 0-8230-7919-8 Library of Congress Control Number 2002117191 And I've never seen a need for either, since my library manages to find them by author & title quite nicely... Trekphiler 12:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Request
Any interest on working on this assassination. Shit album by a great band. Its a good story, lots of sources, writes itself. Ceoil 16:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "My Magpie Eyes Are Hungry for the Prize" has about 15 pages detailing the media clamp down and general paranoia forced by Ignition, and its gripping stuff. I think this could be FA standard with relatively light effort, the quotes from Noel alone carry it. Thanks for the edits, bty. Ceoil 00:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I have both Harris' book and the DVD, but am travelling at the moment. I'm looking forward to getting back home, digging out the book and dishing the dirt. I can expand out the article from these two sources, but would appreciate you keeping an eye on the ce etc. Ceoil 00:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ha, the 'c--k' word is probably an apt description; though you have to admit the c--t had talent. Its accepted that Noel's album killed off Britpop. I was very happy about that; afterall britpop killed pavement over here - we could probably drag out a fairly interesting "aftermat" section.
 * Have you seen "Control" yet bty? I'm delighted Samantha Morton is involved I have to say, and not for artistic reasons ;) Ceoil 00:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is me again looking for a favour. I'm struggling with the structure of W. B. Yeats, which is currently at FAR. Would you mind giving it a five minute review, maybe with some suggestions re the outlay and format. At present the bio / work detail is all muddled up, and he dies half way through, complete with gravestone pic. Five minutes later he is back safe and sound, in his thirties, and in rude health. And he dies again later. It's usually best to keep your leading man breathing until just before the end, but I have singularly failed so far in keeping him going. Ceoil 23:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that was valuable. I'm a bit thick when it comes to structure, but after your suggestion an overview of the development from mysticism to modernism would nicely frame the page. I made a very simplictic merge just now, but can fix that later. Thanks again. Ceoil 00:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I reverted this for the moment, but for the sake of balance, if we can track down a source, it should go at the end of the critical recption section. Do you have anything? Its turning into an agonisingly long FAC. Ceoil 12:15, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Deleted clips?
Do you know why so many fair use music samples are being deleted? My guess is that it's due to a fair use rationale clampdown. It'd be nice to know if a music sample was lacking fair use rationale. CloudNine 10:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Pearl Jam
Are you up for a drive to get Pearl Jam to FA status? I'm going to be working on trimming trivia and improving prose over the next few days, and I think it's a worthy subject to improve to A-class or FA. I've also tried to address most of Quadzilla's concerns (there's quite a few!), but there's little (although I've got a source or two) I can do about his issues with the Legacy and Musical style section. CloudNine 19:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Which reminds me. Are there any tips you can give on writing a Composition/Melody section? (the "Smells Like Teen Spirit" one was excellent) I've been meaning to write one for "Monkey Gone to Heaven", but can't think of a lot to write for it, and sources on it are thin on the ground. CloudNine 19:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Eyes of the Insane
Hi Wesley, I hope you don't mind me popping in but I'm hoping you can help me. Giano at the FAC wishes to know which principal, persistent key the song is in, and I was hoping that perhaps some of Kerry King's columns in Guitar World, or elsewhere in the magazine, that an article mentions which key the song is in? I've asked Ceoil to see if he can help also, and hopefully the issue will be resolved soon. Thanks for your time, and I hope all is well. LuciferMorgan 08:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It got promoted.. hopefully now Christ Illusion can make FT :) LuciferMorgan 17:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Still Reigning
Hey Wesley, i remember you had some info on Still Reigning in a edition of Guitar World, which might be useful to the article. If you have any info could you get back to me on my talk page, cheers. M3tal H3ad 09:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Speaking of which, do you have the September 2006 issue of Guitar World with this article in full? It could be useful in several Slayer related articles. Thanks for your time, and all your help. LuciferMorgan 11:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that :) M3tal H3ad 08:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Red Hot Chili Peppers Logo
If you could possibly give a second opinion on Xihix's talk page, it'd be great. He's becoming rather impatient and I feel my words alone are making him only angrier. Thanks a lot. Regards, N SR 77  ( Talk 23:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

God is good
First a near FA standard Stereolab PR, and then Uncle Tupelo. Hallelujah, Hallelujah. Ceoil 23:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

one, two. Poor auld Robert Smith. Recorded just after "friday i'm in..." Ceoil 00:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The reviews of Reynolds' book have been very positive so far; but remember thats british press, and they are all his mates. The British press is usually excited by its spawn early on, but later tends to eat its young. Ceoil 02:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Xihix RFC
You may be interested in viewing the request for comment on User:Xihix and perhaps certifying the basis for the dispute. CloudNine 15:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The Dark Knight
One suggestion I would make is using Christian Bale, because many fans and critics consider it the best live-action interpretation of the character. There are cites in the Batman Begins for you to use. Alientraveller 19:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Silver Surfer
Good and needed revert there. I always know when I see your signature on my watchlist that I don't need to check it out, that you do good work. Kudos from a peer! --Tenebrae 17:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Pearl Jam
I think we should address Quadzilla99's concerns first (one of the most thorough reviews I've seen) and then take it to peer review (I've been meaning to work on the article, but haven't found the time or the focus). FYI, Stereolab and Uncle Tupelo were both promoted to FA status. CloudNine 19:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Just to let you know I've got plenty of time now; I'll be focusing on three top-importance articles Nevermind, Pearl Jam, and R.E.M. (band). Is there any scope for improvement on alternative rock? It seems to have stayed at good article status for quite a while though. CloudNine 09:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok. My plan is to write the Activism section (I found a copyrighted photo of Vedder with 'pro-choice' scrawled down his arm, but it's not exactly clear, and it would make three photos of just Vedder in the article). I've noticed a lack of images througout Pearl Jam; I may ask Riana to search for some (she found the picture in Joey Santiago). How can I help on R.E.M. (band) in general?
 * The Seven Ages of Rock, covering "alternative rock", was on TV last night FYI; it covered R.E.M. and Black Flag (how the two 'chased' each other around the touring circuit), then a short mention of Husker Du (how they discovered melody apparently), before moving onto Nirvana and the recording of Bleach. "Losing My Religion" by R.E.M. was next, before Nevermind and "Smells Like Teen Spirit", along with In Utero. Apparently Nirvana and R.E.M. were close friends by the end of Cobain's life, with Stipe offering to collaborate on a recording and share a stage (which I hadn't heard before). Might be worth mentioning somewhere. By the way, they consider Oasis to be part of the British indie movement, which is covered in next week's programme. The BBC website has a few useful videoclips, but not much. CloudNine 09:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Top importance
Cool; I suspect most of the work I'll tackle first on Nevermind and R.E.M will be copyedit and stylistic changes. Perhaps we should submit alternative rock for peer review? If we're not doing much active work on it, it makes sense to see how the wider community thinks of the article as-is. I do agree with the difficulty of the article's subject though; Indie rock is even harder :)

Yeah, Nirvana (band) does seem to missing a few sections that are now standard in band articles (Musical style, Legacy (and perhaps Television appearances and videos) all have plenty of sources). I'd suggest nominating Grunge music for a collaboration of the week soon. It seems to have declined somewhat, and needs some more written sources and inline citations (by the way, I've never been a fan of the Timeline of bands section). CloudNine 10:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, I'd be happy to work to that arrangement. I've got plenty of material from that Q Grunge edition (especially Cobain's singing) that I can incorporate. Let me know where and when you start it. CloudNine 10:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

COTW
Sorry that I didn't mention this earlier, but I probably won't be able to update the COTW, at least not on Wednesdays, as regularly as I used to during the school year now that I'm on summer break and my schedule is more erratic. --Brandt Luke Zorn 06:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

REM
I see you are going for the big one; don't forget to crucify them for the last few albums. Jeez. I posted a few early reviews and interviews here. It's funny with Be Here Now, can't find any article that actually discusses the music. Ceoil 11:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Smiths comparison is valid; in a way REM were the US Smiths (ye do try and keep up, I admit). I'm fairly selective about the band, I like the first two albums, and I like New Adventures in Hi-Fi and UP. The last two albums? Eek. Ceoil 11:16, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You realise the error in that logic, right? Ceoil 11:19, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sometimes I'm glad My Bloody Valentine split when they did; were Budweiser ads and guest apprearances on "Friends" that far away. Ceoil 11:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * He has less at stake to be fair; its "millions of people" vs. a few hundred aging hipsters Ceoil 11:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well the last two SP albums should have braced you for the worst. I liked the singles, but never fully got that band; "the baldy, fat, twat in a dress" quote is always in my mind. Re: Kevin Shields, what on earth would a 3rd MBV album sound like, where do you go from loveless. Ceoil 11:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Mmmn, so like Radiohead from 7 years ago. Your point is actually quite astute; there was a dreadful Can remix album in the late 1990s, and the very worst of a wholey awful lot was a Kevin Shields drum and bass remix of some late 70s non entitly album filler. Jesus wept. Ceoil 11:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Let me know which sound files you want added. I'd like to see "Harborcoat", but I suppose I would have to be "Letter Never Sent" or "Camera" from that album. Ceoil 12:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, didn't spot the ogg box down at the end. Ye should spread the files across the page. Will do re Oasis: "whatever clip makes you think "This sounds like it was recorded on cocaine"...Ohh that will be fun. Ceoil 12:24, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You can say what you like about Liam, but listen to the first few bars of [[Image:Oasis Live Forever (Live).ogg]], and well that's really something. Out of curiosity, how far are you away from noninating Kurt Cobain, Just like Heaven, and Live Forever. Ceoil 16:18, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * remrock.com has several interesting pictures. This one, from 1987, seems to show all four band members clearly. I think we do have a valid fair use claim; there are virtually no free photos from pre-1985 that will show the band clearly. and  are worth a look. CloudNine 10:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's interesting to note we have three external links to concert choronologies in Pearl Jam. What are your thoughts? Of course, removing one of them usually leads to an impatient talk page discussion or e-mail stating that it's crucial that external link is included. CloudNine 11:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I reckon I've addressed those issues; the article's improved a lot since last week. (I've finally got a copy of Our Band.., and a 33⅓ "Double Nickels on the Dime"'; should be a good read). My plan with Pearl Jam is to finish off the Activism section (if you could add anything, that would be grand), and send it off for a (quick) peer review. CloudNine 10:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * FYI, Pearl Jam is now at peer review. CloudNine 12:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Go for it. The only concern is that Reveal and Around the Sun aren't cited (although whether they need to be cited is another matter), but that can be fixed while you wait for a GA review. CloudNine 10:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

"began to adopt broad political and environmental concerns while playing large arenas worldwide" - Not sure what you are getting at here; it reads to me like a sly dig. Ceoil 16:13, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Control
The trailer for Control is on youtube, looks pretty damn good. Reports from early screenings have been very positive; can't wait till summer ends, roll on September and Joy Division mania. Came across a great quote from Mark Smith swiping at JD/NO etc, he was asked about global warming: "I don't think about eco issues too much. A new ice age might be good for the music scene...Give them south Manchester bands someting to really moan about." Roll that man a cigarette. Ceoil 22:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't have the book. I had, but others took it. I searched the nearest city yesterday, and it can't be bought for money here. Anyway, if could add what you can it would be great. Here is a random link: . Ceoil 09:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Holy christ, but that man is a tool. "Ok everyone, keep it simple". Ceoil 09:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sounds good. Footage? Ceoil 22:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If I was to be honest, I don't believe all that stuff abut U2 knew about Joy Division early on, and they were an influence on Boy. No more than I believe that they knew about the Pixies bofore the Pixes hit paydirt. U2 are ok now, and they say the right things; but until 1993 or so; that band were the enemy, and the Pixies support tour was taken on on mgt advice. Ceoil 22:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That would be fun; in my early days here I created a category for "great lost albums", but it was deleted within days by some passing admin (fair enough I suppose). I was reading back over the 2002 Q review tonight; there are so many back-handed complements - "not of the pub-trashing idiot kind", "at times, an awkward lyricist, who can tie himself up in cosmic knots...But", "the most touching allusion to his own want of articulacy", "Sometimes, there is nothing wrong with being obvious", "they took it as their job, nothing more and nothing less, to cheer the country up". And it still got five stars. Have a look at this and tell me thoes stars weren't paid for. Ceoil 22:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I have "From Joy Division to New Order" and the ex-wife's book. I'm bogged down with WB, but hoping to sign that off this weekend, so I'll start work soon. We've had the worst.ever.summer here so far - everybody is wet and pissed off, and I'm listening to a lot of JD - so I'm looking forward to getting stuck in and venting. Ceoil 19:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The Joy division template thing has red links towards "Fractured Box Set | Re-Fractured Box Set | Let The Movie Begin". I never heard of these things. They sound like bootlegs to me - should they be removed, or should I get my credit-card out and head for amazon. Ceoil 20:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative music June 2007 Newsletter
You are receiving this newsletter because you have signed up for WikiProject Alternative music. If you wish to stop receiving this newsletter, or would like to receive it in a different form, add your name to the appropriate section here. This newsletter was delivered by the automated R Delivery Bot 00:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)