User talk:Wesley Wolf/Archive 3

=January 2012=

Celebrity Mastermind
Hello Wesley. Thank you for your constructive criticism. I just wanted to let you in on what I was trying to do.I have been contributing off and on for a few years now. I do approve of the talk pages. I use them a lot when I edit. However different people have different views on talk pages as well as editing. One time I had an official source for an edit I was making to a page, but the self -proclaimed editor in chief of the page kept on reverting my sourced edit even though I wrote messages on his talk page. After I told him to look there in my last edit to explain himself, he responded that he never reads his talk page!!

I wanted to tell you that I do respect the BBC website as an official source. I don't deny that. When I created the grid for the 2011/12 series a few weeks ago off of Digiguide (word for word BBC), the listing said "These are the competitors and these are the topics" They didn't expressly say who had chosen what topic, so I decided to wait until the shows aired before the topics were added to avoid mistakes. That was my personal choice. I believe this is the first year in the past few years that they have added the topics in te Official BBC listings. You have every right to add the topics in, and rearrange them if needed. There's no harm in that, I just wanted to let you know that even if the 1st 4 episodes correlated exactly, it may not be true for every one of the remaining episodes.

I did some cross checking with the Radio Times listings and it looks like out of the remaining 6 episodes, all the celebrity/topic match up with the BBC except for Episode 8 on 5 January which I was talking to you about. They have the topics in a different order that would be more logical: the Film critic with the movie topic, the Canadian with the Canadian sports team topic. I am sending you the link below and letting you decide if you want to change it now or you can always wait until the show airs on Thursday to make the switch. I hope that we are cool. I never meant to undermine your values as an editor. I was just trying to let you understand why I edited the way I did. Happy New Year! http://www.radiotimes.com/episode/n5v9t/celebrity-mastermind--series-9---episode-8 65.92.135.242 (talk) 06:50, 1 January 2012 (UTC)samusek2
 * I was thinking more about this over the last 24 hours, and had an idea which could be a constructive compromise for the article. The idea is to keep the future episodes as blank, but having a short paragraph before the table, stating that a few celebrities that are lined-up to take part in that series, along with a few specialist subjects too.  That way we're informing readers roughly who is taking part, and what subjects they're to expect to see being covered.  Also the episode for November 11, was a Children in Need celebrity special and not part of the current 2011/12 Celebrity series.  It may be worth noting that on the table too.  Wesley Mouse (talk) 17:55, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

How to fix talk page archiving
Hello Wesley Mouse. I happened to see your comment about MiszaBot on another user's talk page. Please see this edit where MiszaBot worked correctly for you, back in September. It seems you have changed your MiszaBot instructions since that time. Your new template is different. The template you used in September can still be seen here. I suggest going back to the previous setup for a while. It is possible that MiszaBot does not want to create entries in a directory that does not exist yet, such as User talk:Wesley Mouse/Archives. Also the actual names of your subfiles don't seem to match the archive string you gave to MiszaBot. Hope you can find a fix! EdJohnston (talk) 16:19, 25 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the help and advice EdJohnston. I have attempted the fix as per your instructions, fingers-crossed it works.  Would it be possible in the event that it doesn't work, that some additional assistance be given, even if it means another editor fixing the issue on my behalf?  Wesley Mouse (talk) 11:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's hope it works. If it does, I might have some further suggestions. EdJohnston (talk) 14:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * MiszaBot just ran successfully, but it put the new stuff into Archive 1. That's because counter = 1 is set in your template. Your archives seem a bit small. Some people set maxarchivesize = 250K. One of your archives is less than 30K. How you organize is up to you, of course. If you set maxarchivesize, the bot will automatically overflow into a new archive whenever the old one fills up. This avoids having to enumerate your archive files manually. See my talk page for how my archive box is set up; I never have to create any new archive or revise the display. EdJohnston (talk) 21:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

=February 2012=

Eurovision Song Contest
I'm afraid I can't ignore what is happening on Eurovision Song Contest any longer. This I'm afraid was inappropriate use of Twinkle. This is clearly a content dispute, and you should continue discussing it on the talk page, not use anti-vandalism tools. is an established user and is clearly not a vandal; vandalism is very narrowly definied on Wikipedia and being wrong, violating the WP:MOS e.t.c. does not make someone a vandal. See WP:ATWV, WP:DTTR, and WP:VAND for more. CT Cooper · &#32;talk 23:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I do apologise for that. I thought that an act of vandalism had occurred, especially when a notice was issued to the user about the situation to begin with.  And on the contrary, the user had even re-added the content before starting content dispute on the article talk page, and also removed the notification posted on their wall, which apparently should not have been done to begin with.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  23:50, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


 * has only been a member since November 2011. Not really that established, but nevertheless, I still apologise for stating something as vandalism when it may not have been.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  23:56, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your swift response. I understand your point on the reaction from HTML2011, though users do sometimes take offence to having templates left on their talk page, and I would suggest just ignoring any removals and not aggravating the situation further. I must point out that even if he responded in completely the wrong the way to this it still isn't vandalism. Vandalism is a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia; anything which is in good faith isn't vandalism, even if it is disruptive. For example, edit warring is disruptive but it isn't vandalism, as people who edit war think they are helping Wikipedia by doing so, not deliberately damaging it. You are right that he hasn't been around that long, but really it could be said that means you should be even more careful on grounds of the danger of biting. CT Cooper · &#32;talk 00:11, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I understand your points, thank you ever so much. I always thought that if an editor ignored a request and continued to disruptive edit regardless of the advice and reasons issued by others, was an act of vandalism.  I think I need to re-study the vandal laws after my busy day to London tomorrow.  Not sure if you've followed the full outcome with all this though, but here is the story in its fullest... HTML2011 has redirected the following with what appears to be without consensus; ; ; .  They then go on to duplicate a link on article Eurovision Song Contest -, and also add wikilinks for map cooridinates to the redirected pages shown above .  These links got removed  and a general notice issued on user talk page .  User then ignores requests and re-adds content , , ; as well as deleting my notification on their talk page .  He then goes on to re-add previously removed content  before starting a content dispute disucssion on article talk page .  Content then gets re-removed again , and a warning issued, due to previous requests being ignored  - vandalism warning my be incorrectly issued though, not quite sure.  It was at this point I noticed the user had deleted my previous notice; so I re-added the noticed , and posted a comment to inform them that removing warnings shouldn't be done, and archiving is a better and more civil option . If I have done anything wrong, then I'm happy to hold my hand up and apologise to the user.  But I am confused as it does seem that the user may be doing things without following proper guidance.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  00:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I've retracted the vandalism warning (as shown in this diff and also politely added that the user may wish to discuss this matter further on the article talkpage.  Wesley  ☀  Mouse  00:26, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think that is now the correct course of action. I have to go to bed now, so I will review this issue again in the morning. CT Cooper · &#32;talk 00:31, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * OK. I'm off to bed too shortly, got to be in London by 10:30am.  So an early morning is required as I'm travelling from Preston, and won't be back home until after midnight.  Will read your comments on this Sunday.  Good night Cooper, and sweet dreams!  Wesley  ☀  Mouse  00:35, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * In response to reviewing the full incident. Re-directs are normally created without consensus, though anyone who things one is inappropriate can take it to WP:RFD. While it would have been better for HTML2011 to not re-insert the content after it had been removed once, and just gone to the talk page in line with the WP:BRD cycle, he did raise the issue on the talk page within about ten minutes of re-inserting the links. You did respond to his comments, but should have just left it at that for the moment, with the second revert beginning to cross the line into edit warring. Not to mention, the use of anti-vandalism tools resulted in a blanket revert of changes including some which appear to be unrelated to the content dispute.


 * The warning issued to HTML2011's talk page was not necessary, and "Welcome to Wikipedia" messages are not appropriate for someone who has been on Wikipedia for three months. If a note needed to be left, then it should have been personalized and explained exactly what part of the WP:MOS HTML2011 was going against. The further templated messages were also not appropriate, as HTML2011 was not a vandal, and they would only serve to escalate things, not resolve the dispute. Removing warnings is outdated and is from the time in which removing warnings left on talk pages was prohibited. However, policy on the issue changed several years ago and can now be found at WP:BLANKING - in short, editors are allowed to remove content from their user talk page, but archiving is preferred. CT Cooper · &#32;talk 12:20, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * On the side note, since Removing warnings is at quite a generic title and the historical template doesn't make clear that this is no longer current practice, I have added an additional warning. CT Cooper · &#32;talk 17:02, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Page protection of Eurovision Song Contest
I hope you had fun at the Games Maker Training session. For when you return, as you will see at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest, I have protected the Eurovision Song Contest article to prevent any further edit warring. For fairness and as permitted under WP:PREFER, I have protected the article to the version which existed before the dispute began, barring a few small changes. has responded to the points you have raised on the talk page, and when you return, it would be best if you responded back and made clear what changes you want to the article to keep the discussion going. I will prod HTML2011 if necessary, if it appears things are going stale after you reply. Failing that, if agreement can not be reached and there is no outside output, a third opinion might be the way to go. CT Cooper · &#32;talk 17:46, 5 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the response to the above thread, and also for posting this one. The training session was fun, and surprisingly I walked around London as if I've lived there all my life - and it has been 28 years since I was last there (I was 4 then, and 32 now), so that I found very freaky really.  Anyhow, the show must go on, and so back to business at hand.  I shall read through the comments in-depth, and reply in due course.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  18:22, 5 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Welcome back, I'm glad you had fun. Thank you for responding on the talk page of the Eurovision Song Contest article. I will keep an eye on how things go for a while yet. CT Cooper · &#32;talk 19:40, 5 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the warm welcome back... and I emphasize on the warm - as it is bitterly cold outside LOL. I hope my response on the talk page of ESC is clear and precise, and that I haven't made myself sound muffled in what I wrote.  Anyhow, like you said, we shall now wait for a response.  On a different note, I would like to check something if I may.  I've been scouring the userboxes, to see if there is one for London 2012 Games Makers; but I cannot find any whatsoever.  Would I be fine to make one, or would someone for "senior" (admin level) need to make one?  Although, I'm not sure who I'd make one myself really.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  19:47, 5 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Anyone can create a userbox, the general instructions can be found at WP:UBX. Although some userboxes are hosted in the template space, it is often preferred if userboxes are hosted in the userspace (either in that of the author or of User:UBX), particularly if it is unrelated to Wikimedia Projects or in anyway advocates religious or political opinions - only the former really applies in this case. I personally host all my userboxes in the userspace. CT Cooper · &#32;talk 21:12, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Non-free files in your user space
Hey there Wesley Mouse, thank you for your contributions! I am a bot, alerting you that non-free files are not allowed in user or talk space. I removed some files I found on User:Wesley Mouse.


 * See a log of files removed today here.
 * Shut off the bot here.
 * Report errors here.
 * If you have any questions, place a template, along with your question, beneath this message.

Thank you, -- DASHBot (talk) 05:15, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Eurovision Selecţia Naţională 2012
Why do you say that the logo that I posted for Romania in the ESC 2012 must be deleted? The logo that now stands for Romania in Eurovision Song Contest is not the official one. I saw other pictures that are the same as mine, in the ˝Source˝ field it stands only ˝Own work˝. And it's completely my work, why should I mention another source for it?! I want a good explanation!

Luciann Moșescu (talk) 00:20, 10 February 2012 (CET)


 * A full explanation has been given on your talk page, if you care to read it carefully.  Wesley  ☀  Mouse  11:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)


 * You actually created the logo yourself, as there is no evidence to show that the logo is of official capacity. Creating your own logos for the purpose of inclusion on Wikipedia articles isn't permitted.  You had been warned about this several times in the last 12 months; and everytime your work has been nominated by other editors for deletion.  If I hadn't of flagged up this latest creation, then no doubt another editor would have nominated in due course.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  12:50, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Olympics Userboxes
Would you like me to publish the one you checked for you? I could theoretically publish more than one, but when I browse the userbox gallery, there usually are not more than two or three different types of the same userbox, so I think we should be careful and discerning about how many get published.  Red Sox Fan274  (leave a message ~contribs)  02:21, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh yes please, that would be fantastic.  Wesley  ☀  Mouse  02:23, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Please use this code:

I will save the other userboxes I made just in case you or anybody else might want them published. :)  Red Sox Fan274  (leave a message ~contribs)  02:28, 12 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I see that it's up! If you need anything more, don't hesitate to ask.  Red Sox Fan274  (leave a message ~contribs)  02:31, 12 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Too right yeah! I really, really love it so much - you've made my day feel special now in creating a masterpiece. I promise I shall never forget this moment, and if I get chance, I'll make sure I hold a banner with your Wiki-name on it, at the games to say "thanks".   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  02:38, 12 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Ha! Was a very small thing, really, took me maybe 20 or 30 minutes (then again if you had posted that message, say, in the middle of the night over here, would've taken considerably longer!). Once you learn how to make your own userboxes you can do the same favor for other Wikipedians, too. :)  Red Sox Fan274   (leave a message ~contribs)  02:40, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * By the way, if you want the "will be" to be changed to "was" after the Olympics, just remind me at that time; then again, whether or not you'd still display it after the fact is up to you.  Red Sox Fan274  (leave a message ~contribs)  02:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Another Olympic userbox
This one can be used to replace the other one I made, since you expressed dislike with the use of the word plans in that one.  Red Sox Fan274  (leave a message ~contribs)  02:48, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Oooo thank you. Now I am being spoilt.  I'm adding the Games Maker one to the top of my user page - give it pride of place.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  03:03, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Strike you remarkes
I have already asked at the ANI page but I will repeat myself here just to be safe. Can you please strike you incorrect comments regarding me. Thanks. Bjmullan (talk) 21:45, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I did say "forgive me" immediately afterwards - that is just as good as striking through. I'm pretty sure others will see that statement too; otherwise they'd have said something by now.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  21:47, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * P.S. Remarks is spelt without the E. Apologies for my OCD-ness on spelling.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  21:48, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Again I will request that you strike your false accusations regarding me. Bjmullan (talk) 21:50, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If I remember correctly, an editor can either strike a comment, or add an additional comment of retracting/apologetic nature - to which I did. Other editors and admins will see that I apologised and retracted the mistake immediately afterwards.  I don't see any problem in the fact that I chose to post a short sentence of apology, rather than the option of striking through.  And I am starting to find your tone towards me on the verge of threatening, which is most disturbing.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  21:53, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It's considered 'good taste', when one grants such a request. GoodDay (talk) 22:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * @GoodDay; Please see my further comment at ANI. Thank you -  Wesley  ☀  Mouse  22:03, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if you find my tone threatening as it wasn't meant to be but I have NEVER been blocked or banned. To strike your comments all your have to be is using at the start and < / s > at the end of the strike (no spaces of course). Next time maybe either edit or watch TV not both ... Bjmullan (talk) 22:05, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've done it for'em. Always ready to assist 'sometimes' ;) GoodDay (talk) 22:06, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * @Bjmullan; Apology accepted regarding the threatening tone. I'm normally on the ball at multitasking with edits and watching TV.  A gripping part on CSI caused a minor blip of distraction.
 * @GoodDay; thank you ever so kindly for doing that. Wesley  ☀  Mouse  22:08, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Apology accepted. Bjmullan (talk) 22:10, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Re: Luciann Mosescu strikes again
Yeah I've seen it. How it can be his own work is confusing to me? But their is another image I've removed from an article (File:Malta Eurovision Song Contest 2012.PNG), also tagged as own work, the image(s) could of come from any online site. All these images use the ESC logo, which on here is tagged as Non-free logo --  [[ axg  ◉  talk   ]] 19:44, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I hate to say this, but I think something needs to be done as a matter of urgency, especially if he is continuing to upload 'fake' logos. It is highly disruptive, not to forget a huge breach of copyright on EBU logos.  I'm surprised he hasn't been banned from uploading images before now if this is what he is doing regularly.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  19:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The File:Malta Eurovision Song Contest 2012.PNG has now been removed from commons under the reasoning "copyright violation". Considering this recent one, and the copyvios of the last 12 months from the user, isn't it time that someone stepped in and either issued a final warning, or ban them from uploading further images?  Their talk page is full of copyvio warnings for the same thing of uploading 'fake/mocked' imagery.  With a history like that, I pretty much doubt they would ever learn.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  23:21, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It is a problem, although it is hard to issue warnings (1, 2 and Final) when the user vandals over a long period of time. But is the second annoying thing on Wikipedia to me (the first being the constant vandalism on the The Children's Channel). --  [[ axg  ◉  talk   ]] 23:32, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Re: Recent edit on European Broadcasting Union article
'Russian Federation' is indeed the official name of the country (this I found out from a certain TV programme called Pointless (along with the United Republic of Tanzania)), but have no idea why it's listed in full, considering the other nations. Vatican City is listed as 'Vatican State' their. But we do not follow the naming convention on Macedonia (although yes, this did go through WP:MOSMAC). I just don't see the point really, they both mean the same thing, link to the same article (Russia). Also the UN lists the full name on Russia and some others, but not all. :)

As for the Luciann situation, that's good, the user is already in my watchlist.:)--  [[ axg  ◉  talk   ]] 19:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

 * Sluuuuurrrrp! Ahhhhhh! Thank you for the coffee, it came at a perfect time, and its black coffee too which has certainly woken me up. I soon hit the pillow with tiredness after doing all those changes.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  12:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

=March 2012=

Re: Alteration of Finnish Television details on various Eurovision articles
Hi Wesley I receved the infomation of the YLE broadcast of the Eurovision from a Finnish ESC fan, who gave me which years TV1 and TV2 took turns in broadcasting the contest. I could give you his contact, if you wish to double check. Regards Mrluke485 (talk) 17:11,(UTC)
 * Unfortunately that is going against no original research, as the information has been sent privately to yourself from a fan, and not from a reliable source.  Therefore the information cannot be used, sorry!   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  17:14, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay I see your point, is there anyway I could get the infomation reliable if possible please? Regards - Mrluke485 (talk) 17:20,(UTC)
 * You could always check other reliable websites such as the national broadcaster itself, or Eurovision.tv. There is a list of reliable sources at the WP:ESC page.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  17:23, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * If I put the source as Ojala, Ilari (OGAE Finland), would that be a reliable source? Ilari Ojala is the contact name where I recieved the infomation from Regards - Mrluke485 (talk) 17:38,(UTC)
 * Sorry no, that cannot be done. You obtained the information privately from that person, so to cite their name would still be classified as original research, as you already admitted to obtaining it originally from them.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  17:40, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Re: Engelbert Humperdinck for UK
I didn't add it, but have edited it, there is still bound to be some similarities. --  [[ axg  ◉  talk   ]] 22:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Its OK, I've managed to re-write it better, avoiding copyvio - Wesley  ☀  Mouse  22:09, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * 'staged'* :D --  [[ axg  ◉  talk   ]] 22:13, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well spotted - the shock of the Humpmeister is just unbelievable that I can't focus on what I'm typing LOL Wesley  ☀  Mouse  22:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I was too young (in other words, yet born) to remember his heyday, but It'll be different, would be nice to hear the song. --  [[ axg  ◉  talk   ]] 22:25, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Re: nominations of various Eurovision Representatives Templates
Why did you remove all the templates I have made?? A. There is NO such templates, I made a template for ARTISTS and you mentioned the template for YEARS, I know it is very usefull because not everyone want information about years. B. There are not templates connected to artists, you can check every artist and see that after what you have done you can't go through sevral artists from the same country. C. Most important - besides adding templates I made changes because there are couple of formats for the bottom list of the artist before and after, so I wanted to go over all the artists to have the SAME format, why ruin that? Please fix this issue, I can't find any reason why not let me do job, and as I said, I wanted to do it for ALL the Eurovision artists (Hundreds of them!). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123o (talk • contribs) 22:26, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * As discussed with another editor (which can be seen here) we need to keep the number of template navboxes to a minimal as possible. The mass creation of such templates like the ones you created without consensus is problematic, and you should have checked with the project first before going on your own back and making them.  9 times out of 10, you'll find there are templates already in existence which cover what you expected.  Currently your created templates overlap with "Country in the Eurovision Song Contest", and really either these new templates should list purely the contestants for each country (in perhaps the same style as Template:Venues of the Eurovision Song Contest).   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  22:34, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * So why didn't you remove the previous templates? There is fewer information in those one (there is NO information on the artists!), and again as I said, I made several changes besides this one and you removed them also...--123o (talk) 22:38, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The other templates have been created a long time before your by another editor. To delete theirs and allow yours to take presidency is highly wrong, and not cooperative in any form whatsoever.  You should have sought consensus from the project talk page before going ahead and creating templates that are no required.  If duplication or overlapping articles ever occur, then any editor would take into account the one made first, and the duplication would get deleted.  There are templates for artists, templates for years, templates for host cities - so why create one covering all of them, it is pointless - and they will look very messy as more and more details become added to them.  Plus you overkilled the templates by adding too many pictorial items to them.  As the saying goes, "Less is more".  Wesley  ☀  Mouse  23:28, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It seems you don't read what I write, because you keep writing the same things without referring to what I write, but I would like to get an example for a Eurovision Artists template you say is on place--123o (talk) 00:06, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Please don't be rude and presume that I am not "reading what you write". I have read clearly and understandably what you have written, and replied politely as can be.  Maybe you're misunderstanding what I have tried to politely point out?  Anyhow, in response to your request, I provided examples of templates currently in use, as well as provide an example with "Country in Eurovision Song Contest".  All you need to do is change the word "Country" for the name of the nation you wish to view.  That will direct you to an article for that nation, which contains full details of participation, artists, and points awarded/gained.  For example, you created Template:Armenian Eurovision Representatives.  An article for Armenia in the Eurovision Song Contest and a template Template:Armenia in the Eurovision Song Contest already exists which provides the same information as your template.  However, you are failing to see that the other articles and templates have been created long before yours, and have had many hours/days/weeks/months/years work put into them by other editors who have taken time to create and maintain them - deleting their work so that yours can remain is an insult to the other people.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  00:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It may also be worth noting the following pages too, which cover exactly what your templates are doing Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants by year and Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants by country.  Wesley  ☀  Mouse  02:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * As I thought, you gave an example for something completely different (And as I said, if you would read what I have written you would understand...). Take care. --123o (talk) 14:05, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Please avoid being uncivil. I have asked politely that you cease the rude statements aimed at me. Your behaviour towards myself is becoming disruptive and unacceptable. I have read everything you have written - if I hadn't read them, then I wouldn't have replied would I? You asked for examples everytime, and each time I have provided examples. Perhaps you are failing to read what I have provided? As CT Cooper mentioned on his own talk page, he spent all summer fixing templates so that they are easy to use, and worded appropriately. To delete his hours and hours of work would be wrong. Take for example if it was your work that had been around for a long time, and someone else came along demanding their newest version take priority - you would get very upset. So to be fair, I shall explain things one final time, in more simple terminology. I shall use Albania as the example. Wesley ☀  Mouse  14:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Original Article: Albania in the Eurovision Song Contest - Created 6 June 2005
 * This provides insight into representatives for Albania by year.
 * Original Template: Template:Albania in the Eurovision Song Contest - Created 27 July 2008
 * This provide shortcut links to Albania by year
 * Your creation: Template:Albanian Eurovision Representatives - Created 3 March 2012
 * This is covering all of the originals, which would effectively make the article obsolete; and an adverse effect of having your own created template redundant as there would be no article for it to be used on.


 * I believe this argument should not be based on a personal level, but I would like to say that a dialogue is usually based on hearing the two sides and not just one side giving his arguments without referring to the opinion of the other (a good example is what wrote in the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision page, referring to my notes). I suggest we conclude this discussion here and let the editors give their professional opinions from now on. --123o (talk) 03:05, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

My change
I'm sorry about my change, I didn't mean anything by it. I just noticed that Diggiloo Thrush has the extra lyrics for Norway 1973 down as "Serbo-Croat". In my mind I was doing what we had agreed upon, but if you wanna change it back then I understand. It is your work like, shouldn't have stepped on your toes. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 23:53, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah I noticed those too. But Bosnian was already included in the original article.  What I found untidy was the language column for Norway was listing 10 different languages, so I left the ones that Diggiloo quoted, and moved the rest to a footnote; just for the fact that a previous consensus could have been reached to list it as Bosnian, that we're not aware of.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  23:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Right I agree that 10 languages in the column wouldn't work at all, but I didn't see Bosnian listed before your changes were made. Sorry again. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 23:58, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * They where hidden within a  - very sneaky I thought, but the ref listed the other 10 languages at the reflist section.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  00:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Ah okay, fair enough then. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I've just thought Sims. All these changes now could affect List of languages in the Eurovision Song Contest.  Would you like to alter the table in there to reflect what is held on all the articles?  Keeps things tied-together and looking consistent.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  00:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Well it should be all okay since it's basically already what we're putting in now, but I'll have a look. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 00:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well not really. I've have literally gone off what Diggiloo have languages listed as.  So Serbo-Croatian may now have been first used later than listed.  Seeing as the compromise was to list exactly how they have them listed, with exception to dialects, which get footnoted.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  00:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, so in each year's article take the first occurence of each language used and place it in the table. Simple enough Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 00:46, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Sounds about right yeah. I'll even go shares with you on a barnstar :-) Wesley  ☀  Mouse  00:48, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * How can I say no to that?! :D Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 00:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * P.S. I've made it to the year 2000 - watch out Doctor Who, I can travel faster than you LOL Wesley  ☀  Mouse  00:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Haha. Quick question, should I list "Serbo-Croatian" from 1984 as seperate from Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian. Before all this the three languages were already listed as seperate entries from 1961, 1963 and 1964 respectively, which is what we have right now, but there was a footnote explaining the whole Serbo-Croatian thing and how the first entries for each of the three languages could be their first independent entries. My opinion would be to just leave it as it is, since it seems to have worked in the past without any difficulties. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 00:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm good question. Keeping it as it is would take away consistency and may confuse readers - especially when the 1984 article states first use, and the list contradicts with by saying 1961.  Saying that, we are now going off Diggiloo's facts - so I doubt anyone would argue too much about it if we did change things, when we've sourced the facts now. I'm in the year 2004 - yikes!   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  00:58, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It would shorten the table length down too, going off the new diggiloo list.  Wesley  ☀  Mouse  00:59, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, are we listing Styrian as a language, or a dialect? Diggiloo have it as language, but we did establish it as dialect.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  01:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * My thought would be that it'd be a dialect of Bavarian, so the way you're doing it is probably right. Guess that would mean I would take it off the first languages page since it's now not a language! Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 01:08, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I checked the lyrics article itself on Diggiloo, and they have it as Styrian (a dialect of German); similar to the way they have 2012 listed. Also, the list of languages article, I'm dubious about the footnote for Yugoslav songs.  It uses the phrase "strictly speaking"... which is something a person would say to stress a point of view, and we're suppose to be WP:NPOV.  We could always list Yugoslavia's first usage of Serbian/Bosnian/Slovene/Croatian etc and then also list the first time Serbia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Croatia, used them in their own right as independent nations; and footnoting all, and rewording the explanation.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  01:12, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Slovene is a different situation, as it has always been seperate from Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian and there are key differences between their languages, in a similar way as Swedish/Norwegian/Danish are different from each other. I'm not sure how I feel about listing the same languages twice, since it is suppose to be "first languages", but I'll have a go at rewording the footnote. I have also taken Styrian and Mühlviertlerisch out of the list and added them to a footnote for German. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 01:16, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I've had a go at rewording the Yugoslav footnote. Tell me what you think. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 01:23, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Will do. I'm almost done myself. Taking a stroll into 2011, and then wham bam into 2012, and job done! Wesley ☀  Mouse  01:33, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

That looks good - well done! Although the Austrian footnote appears to be tagged to Switzerland. I've managed to travel through 57 years of Eurovision - phew! Wesley ☀  Mouse  01:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It's tagged to the German language and it just happens that the first entry sung in German was by Switzerland. Can't help that I'm afraid. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 01:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Problem solved - tagged it (twice) next to the name Austria, in the countries column instead- less confusing now.  Wesley  ☀  Mouse  01:59, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Suppose that's as good a solution as any. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 02:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!
Ooooo that one is more colourful than the one I issued. Where did you find the jazzed-up version? Thank you BTW, I shall add it to my wall of fame. Wesley ☀  Mouse  02:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It's the one that came with the barnstar when I used the "thank user" button at the top of the page :P Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 02:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I've always wondered what that heart thing did - wasn't brave enough to click it myself in case I broke something - very accident prone me! Wesley  ☀  Mouse  03:35, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Another fake JESC 2012 logo uploaded
Thanks! Good luck at your darts match by the way. – Kosm  1  fent  17:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The user has also managed to upload another copy of the 2012 ESC logo, after the other was deleted just days ago. I am making progress with discussion on that issue btw. CT Cooper · &#32;talk
 * It's a good job some people can't make good fakes. The edges, font etc are all awful --  [[ axg  ◉  talk   ]] 18:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Here again, a couple of things, 1. JESC logos don't bear the heart and flag, and 2. Both of those images are not correct SVG formats. Anyway I placed File:Eurojunior2012.svg for deletion and removed it from Wikis that were using it. --  [[ axg  ◉  talk   ]] 18:19, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * So true AxG. Thanks guys. – Kosm  1  fent  04:36, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delay in replying. Virgin Media been down in the area for almost 24 hours :-(  I was starting to get withdrawal symptoms.  Wesley  ☀  Mouse  21:49, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Approving truce
 Hello. I fully accept your offer. I would like to say that this issue got totally out of proportions, since I actually never meant to provoke you, and as you said before some supported you and others didn't. I guess it is a part of cultural differences that made me see something different than you do, but I believe we both learned a thing or two in this episode. Cheers, take care! (By the way, a good example of this cultural differences is that when I write something in CAPITAL LETTERS it means I want to emphasize something (good or bad), and now I know that some see it as sort of "virtual yelling"... It's good to know that now...)

Spread the peace of doves by adding {{subst:Peace dove}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message!


 * Thank you for reciprocating the offer of a truce. The use of capital letters in a way of shouting is a known fact on the internet, and SMS text messaging.  Caps shouldn't be used as a form of emphasis whatsoever, details on this can be found at on this Wiki guideline and at WP:SHOUT.  In any written format, putting word(s) in italics is the general way to show emphasis.  It is a common mistake that I stumbled on once or twice, but then was pointed in the direction of policies.  That has made me think actually, a user told me about a quick-guide template for policies, which I now have on the bottom of my main page.  Feel free to obtain a copy of that for your page and reference guide.  Comes in very handy indeed - I classify it as my Wiki-Bible of the dos and don't's.   Wesley  ☀  Mouse  13:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Message Reply
Thanks for your help! I've joined the Eurovision WikiProject, and I'm welcome to help you any way I can too. --Davidcolombia96eng (talk) 00:39, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision: Discussion on the use of navigation templates
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