User talk:Wiki-psyc

About me
Education

Writing experience

Wiki-psyc (logged out IP 97.99.90.245)
 * Occupation: Medical, Life sciences
 * Other interests: Psychology, Philosophy, Technology
 * Editing objectives:
 * Improving usefulness - writing in clear and understandable language for the reader
 * Improving cohesion - organizing sentences, paragraphs, sections together to so that the overall message is clear/logical to the reader.
 * Improving accuracy - prioritizing content that represents the state-of-the-art and/or expert consensus
 * Age: 68

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November 2021
Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you tried to give a page a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into Megalomania. This is known as a "cut-and-paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is legally required for attribution. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases for registered users, once your account is four days old and has ten edits, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page (the tab may be hidden in a dropdown menu for you). This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Requests for history merge. '' Please seek consensus in the Requested moves process for these kind of disambiguation situations. '' LittleWink (talk) 20:02, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

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!Voting
You said at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 October 28‎ "This is a voting process." Allow me to point out WP:VOTE: Paradoctor (talk) 01:51, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

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Plot Summary
Hi, Let's talk about "citations needed" on the plot summary section of a film. I saw your comment on your reversion of my removal of that tag. Thanks for the explanation. I still don't agree, but maybe you can convince me.

This plot summary doesn't contain any quotes, so that case doesn't apply here.

Anyway, if the reference is to a primary source, what would that be for a film? A plot summary has, by its nature, only the original work as its reference. I guess it could for a distributor's page for the film (when available), but what would that accomplish? And would you suggest references to specific timestamps in the film? I suppose you could for some plot points (he died in a car accident - a specific moment in the film, perhaps), but not others (she lives with her mother - a general condition of her life).

If you require citations, it seems that every sentence of the summary would require one. It just doesn't seem practical.

Secondly, I just checked WP plot summaries on a half dozen popular films, and none of them had citations. It really doesn't seem to be a thing. If you find counter examples, let me know.

P.S., Villanova long ago, M.A. in Computer Science. Regards, Leotohill (talk) 01:24, 19 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your constructive comments. To answer your question, in my opinion the screen play (primary, but allowable), or a third party plot summary would be valuable additions to the article. In the interest of resolution, I added both. A reader with interest will now have a reference for the plot without watching the film. Let me know if you are good with that.


 * As per WP:MOSFILM, I see that it says "provided the film is publicly available, citing the film explicitly in the plot summary's section is not necessary, since the film is the primary source and the infobox provides details about the film". So I am convinced that a citation is optional.


 * I lived in O'Dwyer Hall (house section) for 4 years... great campus.


 * Thanks. Wiki-psyc (talk) 15:42, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Leotohill (talk) 20:19, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

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Gaslighting
In the reference to The Archers, the nation shocked was the United Kingdom, not England. The Archers is also popular in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C0:5301:87F0:CD56:D49F:4D97:119E (talk) 02:42, 6 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Thankyou Wiki-psyc (talk) 02:58, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

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Copying within Wikipedia
Hi Wiki-psyc! Thank you for your edits to Narcissistic personality disorder. It looks like you've copied or moved text from Narcissism into that page, and while you are welcome to re-use the content, Wikipedia's licensing requires that you provide attribution to the original contributor(s). When copying within Wikipedia, this is supplied in an edit summary at the page into which you've copied content, disclosing the copying and linking to the copied page, e.g.,. If you've copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, please provide attribution for this duplication if it has not already been supplied by another editor. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at Copying within Wikipedia. Thanks! DanCherek (talk) 22:31, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for showing me how to do that. Wiki-psyc (talk) 23:34, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia and copyright
Hello Wiki-psyc! Your additions to Narcissism have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the public domain or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a suitably-free and compatible copyright license. (To request such a release, see Requesting copyright permission.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from sources to avoid copyright and plagiarism issues.


 * You can only copy/translate a small amount of a source, and you must mark what you take as a direct quotation with double quotation marks (") and cite the source using an inline citation. You can read about this at Non-free content in the sections on "text". See also Help:Referencing for beginners, for how to cite sources here.
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It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be blocked from editing. If you have any questions about this, you are welcome to leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. — Diannaa (talk) 15:51, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

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Making bolded recommendations in AFD discussions
If you are the nominator of an AFD, the nomination itself amounts to a delete recommendation. You should not insert a bolded recommendation later in the discussion (unless you have changed your mind). That amounts to a double !vote and confuses automated tallying processes. This is covered by one of the bullets at WP:AFDFORMAT. This is not the first time I have seen you do this, or been told about it. Please desist with this practice. SpinningSpark 16:48, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input, I was not aware of WP:AFDFORMAT. As for prior warning, you may have me confused with someone else. Thanks, nonetheless.Wiki-psyc (talk) 20:41, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

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Killing of Patrick Lyoya
Please do not introduce incorrect information into articles, as you did to Killing of Patrick Lyoya. Your edits could be interpreted as vandalism and have been reverted. If you believe the information you added was correct, please cite references or sources or discuss the changes on the article's talk page before making them again. If you would like to experiment, use your sandbox.

In your edit here, you incorrectly add that the officer shot Lyoya "[a]fter losing control of the taser". This was not found in any of the included sources and is borderline vandalism. Please be careful with further edits on controversial articles.--WMrapids (talk) 21:10, 20 April 2022 (UTC)


 * WMrapids, I have tried to engage you on the talk page in an effort to bring a more Neutral point of view to the above article and to encourage you to stay focused on the incident at hand and not make the article about "social justice".
 * I backed away when you engaged in WP:EDITWARING as you repeatedly reverted my edits and the edits of others. At the time of your posting above, you edits made up 85% of the article content.
 * When the investigative reports come out (and I'll wait for that),
 * we will know if your claim was correct: the officer is seen pushing Lyoya face-down with his knee and then shooting Lyoya in the back of the head
 * or if my claim my was correct After losing control of the taser, the officer draws his service weapon which discharges as the two are scuffling.
 * If there are videos recording an incident in an article, we certainly have a practical obligation to consider challenges to content that are obviously inconstant with the video.Wiki-psyc (talk) 17:06, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Copyright violation
One of your recent edits has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images&mdash;you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Copying text from other sources for more information.

In this edit, you added:

"A May 2016 letter from then-Chief David Rahinksy applauded Schurr for chasing and apprehending someone he pulled over that was driving without a license"

From the source, it says:

A May 2016 letter from then-Chief David Rahinksy applauded Schurr for chasing and catching someone he pulled over that was driving without a license

This doesn't appear to be your first warning regarding copyright violations and given my previous warning regarding the entry of false information into the article, your edits performed on the project are concerning. Please use more attention when editing in the future to avoid potential blocks.--WMrapids (talk) 22:09, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

A message from Darcyisverycute
Hello Wiki-psyc. Thank you for your recent edit and feedback on Manipulation. I want to discuss this change with you. I have also noticed you around on psychology articles and I want to thank you for contributing to psychology on Wikipedia.

So, about the edit message:

This article is an broad article on manipulation, a common, normal human behavior. Any discussion of extreme manipulation as it relates to very rare mental conditions is best handled in an article discussing the rare mental condition (e.g., Machiavellianism). Note - human behaviors are generally not consicered to have been designed by anyone or to be skills..

I agree that manipulation is a behavior exhibited subclinically (ie. "normally") and clinically, for which it is well documented in three personality disorders and possibly other mental disorders. (My experience lies in personality disorders.) However, when I was rewriting the article, I could not find any distinction between "extreme" manipulation and "normal" manipulation. Also, PDs chronically exhibiting manipulation are not "very rare mental conditions": ASPD, HPD and NPD have estimated prevalence rates of 2.10–4.16%, 0.36–1.48% and 0.43–2.40% in the general population[1]. Machiavellianism is a personality trait, not a mental condition, and thus cannot be diagnosed - I am not aware of its prevalence in the general population.

A major reason why I changed the lead section is because the current definition does not line up with its sources. use of devious means is not in either sources, and peer reviewed material I have found does not ascribe a motivation to the definition of the term. The second source for the definition used, [2], I consider to be an unreliable source as it does not list an author, does not cite any sources, and does not mention etiology.

The next sentence In the extreme it is a stratagem of tricksters, swindlers, and impostors who disrespect moral principles, deceive and take advantage of others’ frailty and gullibility. cites [3] which is explicitly about Machiavellianism and not manipulative behaviors in the presence or absence of Machiavellianism - I consider this citation and claim to better belong on the Mach page, and perhaps go into more detail than rearranging the wording of the first two sentences of the abstract.

The EMS and MEOS assessment tools I covered go into more detail about the claim I made, and cited, that Skills necessary for manipulation can be used for both prosocial and antisocial purposes. This is a key feature of the behavior that I demonstrated with my added citations is a key part of the behavior, in both subclinical and clinical settings. (These assessment tools are not used exclusively in those with ASPD, NPD or HPD.)

In the second paragraph, I removed the unreliable source [4]. The author of the Forbes article is "Rodger Dean Duncan. Contributor. I cover leadership issues that make or break your workplace experience". This is a person with claimed experience in business, not psychology, and no citations or peer review. I would go further to say the statement Influence and persuasion are neither positive nor negative is more confusing than anything, as "positive" and "negative" have very unclear meanings in the context of this article - does it mean "prosocial" and "antisocial", or "beneficial to those using manipulative behavior" and not?

To summarise, when I came across the article I found a poorly sourced, misattributed lead section which I brought up to the current state of academic consensus in the field, and added relevant definitions of antisocial and prosocial behavior which are central to the concept. I added a source to the largest and most recent (and possibly only) meta-analysis of the field[5] and used that secondary source as a foundation for the definitions I edited in.

I will put a disclaimer, that like you, I am trying to improve the quality of psychology articles. I expect to make mistakes as a newcomer to Wikipedia, including when writing about contentious article topics -- manipulation in particular I think is pretty contentious due to its stigma. So I do appreciate this opportunity for discussion.

[1] Volkert, Jana, Thorsten-Christian Gablonski, and Sven Rabung. "Prevalence of personality disorders in the general adult population in Western countries: systematic review and meta-analysis." The British Journal of Psychiatry 213.6 (2018): 709-715.

[2] Brennan, MD, Dan. "Signs of Emotional Manipulation". www.webmd.com. WebMD. Retrieved 23 November 2020. https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/signs-emotional-manipulation

[3] Bereczkei, Tamás (2017). Machiavellianism The Psychology of Manipulation (First ed.). London: Taylor and Francis Group. ISBN 9781315106922.

[4] Duncan, Rodger Dean. "Influence Versus Manipulation: Understand The Difference". www.forbes.com. Forbes. Retrieved 21 December 2018. https://www.forbes.com/sites/gradsoflife/2022/02/24/3-myths-youve-heard-about-skills-based-hiring/?sh=3427109411a1

[5] Ngoc, Nguyen Nhu; Tuan, Nham Phong; Takahashi, Yoshi (October 2020). "A Meta-Analytic Investigation of the Relationship Between Emotional Intelligence and Emotional Manipulation". SAGE Open. 10 (4): 215824402097161. doi:10.1177/2158244020971615. ISSN 2158-2440.

Darcyisverycute (talk) 00:40, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi Darcy. Thanks for the note. I appreciate your thoughts. I am reasonably versed on personality disorders and am well networked with opinion leaders in the clinical community. There is a concern in the psychology portal that popular social media topics like psychopathy and personality disorders are over represented in articles; to the point of being imbalanced at best, misleading at worst. Most of this content has been added by amateur psychologists. And while its reasonable, for example, that an article on Borderline personalty disorder might explore "rage", an article on rage that that leads with a large discussion on BPD projects and imbalanced perspective on the topic. Most rage, of course, is unrelated to BPD. There are lots of these articles - here is one example Exaggeration


 * With respect to reliable sources, Wikipedia is not a scientific organization and the highest standard for sources are notable secondary sources (BBC, New York Times, etc). Research studies are usually considered tentative and may change in the light of further academic research. If the isolated study is a primary source, it should generally not be used if there are secondary sources that cover the same content. The reliability of a single study depends on the field. Avoid undue weight when using single studies in such fields. Studies relating to complex and abstruse fields, such as medicine, are less definitive and should be avoided. Secondary sources, such as meta-analyses, textbooks, and scholarly review articles are preferred when available, so as to provide proper context. For a broad "introductory" article like Manipulation, WebMd and Forbes are preferred sources.


 * With respect quotations, is a bit of a mine-field. Wikipedia editors will militantly pull direct quotes for fear of copyright violations, and at the same time paraphrasing must be done carefully so as not be biased or synthesize information.


 * I've noticed that the Manipulation article has had a few bad edits since May 4th that need to be cleaned up. One thing (among others) that was the removal of the section on Mental Illness, which is a directory of sort to find associated mental illness discussions. I will re-add it.


 * ==Mental illness== (refernces removed for simple formatting)
 * While manipulation is a common human behavior, individuals with the following mental health issues are prone to manipulate:


 * Antisocial personality disorder,
 * Borderline personality disorder,
 * Conduct Disorder,
 * Factitious disorder,
 * Histrionic personality disorder,
 * Narcissistic personality disorder.


 * I plan to take time in the next day to recover parts of where it the Manipulation article was on May 4 so that there is a more conventional base to work with.


 * I liked your additions to Personality disorder, btw.Wiki-psyc (talk) 20:45, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Wiki-psyc This gives me a lot to think about. Unlike you I don't personally know many people involved in clinical psychology - I am doing a phd in an unrelated field. I almost certainly fit your definition of "amateur psychologist".
 * There is a concern in the psychology portal that popular social media topics like psychopathy and personality disorders are over represented in articles; to the point of being imbalanced at best, misleading at worst. Could you provide some links to conversations/archives on Wikipedia about this? Or if there are bots that look at statistics for this sort of thing within a wikiproject? I would be interested in reading them.
 * And while its reasonable, for example, that an article on Borderline personalty disorder might explore "rage", an article on rage that that leads with a large discussion on BPD projects and imbalanced perspective on the topic. Most rage, of course, is unrelated to BPD. There are lots of these articles - here is one example Exaggeration I am a little confused reading this. The example link you gave to an old revision has no mention of rage or BPD. I'd appreciate you sending me a few of them if you feel like it; making language neutral and non-stigmatising is important to me (within the wiki editing guidelines -- please call me out if I don't follow them). So far, I have tried to direct my editing efforts on wikipedia towards adding neutrality and updating sources to existing articles which clearly have long histories. The use of the phrase use of devious means on the Manipulation page caught my eye as one such example that wasn't backed by a citation and I think it unduly stigmatises those exhibiting manipulative behavior. I have found a handful of similar cases on PD articles which inappropriately ascribe motivation to behavior -- to my best knowledge, PDs and mental disorders in general tend to be very heterogenous.
 * With respect to reliable sources, [...] Secondary sources, such as meta-analyses, textbooks, and scholarly review articles are preferred when available, so as to provide proper context. For a broad "introductory" article like Manipulation, WebMd and Forbes are preferred sources. About the WebMD and Forbes citations, according to your quote, I would think that a meta-analysis such as the 2020 one I mentioned in the previous comment would be more appropriate to rely on for a definition of the term and for writing the lead section. I will also point out that the current page name is "Manipulation (psychology)", which I considered a sufficient specialisation to not merit the use of business articles. The disambiguation page for Manipulation is already pretty big, maybe the Forbes citation better belongs on one of the more business or marketing related disambiguated pages.
 * With respect quotations, is a bit of a mine-field. I believe I only added two quotes in the lead section, both pretty short and not a full sentence. I think the length of the quotes I used was fine, although having another look at WP:QUOTE it would have been better for me to add in-text attribution.
 * I've noticed that the Manipulation article has had a few bad edits since May 4th that need to be cleaned up. I think you are referring to my edit, which is fine, judging by the sparse edit history on the page. And I understand that my edit was a rewrite of the whole article, in my efforts to WP:BOLD as per my previous comment, which I can expect to at least occasionally stir up trouble. If you object to most or all of the edit content, I am fine for you to revert it, in which case I kindly ask to move this comment thread to Manipulation's talk page. Maybe it would also be useful to hear the opinions of other editors about what direction the Manipulation article should take, and if there exists consensus to split it into a non-clinical and clinical page.
 * the removal of the section on Mental Illness I did not remove the section. Since it was fairly short after verifying that manipulation is not part of conduct disorder, I decided it was more appropriate to rewrite it into a few paragraphs especially to clarify the scientific consensus how BPD is associated with manipulation.
 * I liked your additions to Personality disorder, btw. Thank you! I'm glad you liked it. Wish you a happy week ~ Darcyisverycute (talk) 12:30, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi again. The Nguyen paper is a good selection and well done. A section such as "Emotional intelligence and manipulation" would be a good place to share her conclusions - preceding the "Mental illness" section.
 * Other quick comments:
 * 1. Lying and manipulation are common in Conduct Disorder.
 * 2. Manipulation (Physchology) was chosen to differentiate from the many entries on the Manipulation (disambiguation. Manipulation was not an option.
 * 3. I was giving two examples - one theoretical, one actual - they are not related.
 * 4. I was defending the Forbes and WebMD references - not addressing any other references.
 * 5. My comment regarding quotations was explaining why content often does not always reflect the exact wording found in the citation.Wiki-psyc (talk) 20:32, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Wiki-psyc Lying and manipulation are common in Conduct Disorder. I agree that lying is common in conduct disorder. I have looked on the wikipedia page for conduct disorder, the DSM-5, and reviews of the disorder and I could not find a reliable source citing that manipulation is a symptom or criteria of conduct disorder. In the DSM-5, manipulation is only an optional subtype specification "With limited prosocial emotions" -> "Shallow or deficient affect". Lying is a form of manipulation, and it seems to be the only form of manipulation codified in the disorder. Based on this I think it is misleading to call this manipulation as opposed to just lying.
 * Manipulation in factitious disorder is mentioned in the DSM-5 only in the context of changing blood test results, which is not psychological manipulation. I am unable to find any citation supporting the claim that factitious disorder is manipulative. Please find appropriate citations for these two disorders.
 * The current section "Characteristics of manipulators" cites a single source which is included in the 2020 Nguyen meta-analysis, with the meta-analysis drawing different conclusions. I had rewrote the section for this reason.
 * I had summarised as according to the existing citation in the BPD paragraph, that Manipulation in BPD is more often used as a stigmatising label, than to accurately describe its symptoms. This was replacing the old statement, which was using the same citation: Borderline Personality Disorder is unique in the grouping as "borderline" manipulation is characterized as unintentional and dysfunctional manipulation. - this claim was not supported by its source.[1] I don't understand why my rewrite of this was removed. I also considered the use of "manipulator" as opposed to "individuals exhibiting manipulation" to be stigmatising. This is in line with WP:MOSMED: "Many patient groups, particularly those that have been stigmatised, prefer person-first terminology—arguing, for example, that seizures are epileptic, people are not."
 * I was giving two examples - one theoretical, one actual - they are not related. If I understand this correctly, the issue you are describing is undue weight. I don't see how undue weight is related to the Manipulation article or its recent edits, except perhaps to pejoratively cast those exhibiting manipulative behavior - which is what I set out to improve to meet scientific consensus, and which appears to me to be an ongoing issue with the article.
 * This article is starting to stress me out, so I am going to give it a break and look at it in a month or so to revisit it.
 * [1] Aguirre, Blaise (2016). "Borderline Personality Disorder: From Stigma to Compassionate Care". Stigma and Prejudice. Current Clinical Psychiatry. Humana Press, Cham. pp. 133–143. doi:10.1007/978-3-319-27580-2_8. ISBN 9783319275789 . Darcyisverycute (talk) 08:33, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Psychological manipulation/Archives/2019


Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice that the page you created, Psychological manipulation/Archives/2019, was tagged as a test page under section G2 of the criteria for speedy deletion and has been or soon may be deleted. Please use the sandbox for any other test edits you may want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.

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 * I could use your help. I created Talk:Psychological manipulation/Archives/2020 and it is not showing up as an archive page in the main talk page. I then forwarded the page to Talk:Manipulation (psychology)/Archives/2020, that also was not picked up in the archive menu. I also created Talk:Psychological manipulation/archives/2018 and Talk:Psychological manipulation/archives/2019 think the software may have been looking for those dates. Bottomline, I just wanted to add a 2020 archive page and can't seem to sort out the problem. Can you help and also tell me what the problem is so I will know for future archiving.Wiki-psyc (talk)

Notification of third opinion request
Hey wiki-psyc, letting you know of my request for a third opinion at Third opinion about the manipulation article discussion. I hope this can lead to more clear resolution. Darcyisverycute (talk) 07:34, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Notification of dispute resolution noticeboard request
Hey wiki-psyc, since the third opinion didn't get picked up I've made a post on the dispute resolution noticeboard: Dispute resolution noticeboard. There's a section where you can write a summary of the dispute there. Thanks Darcyisverycute (talk) 05:16, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

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Article on NPD
Hello, I would be happy to contribute to the discussions relative to the article 'NPD' on which you have been working (not sure whether you still do). I am sorry for the angry comment I left long time ago. I find your discussions with Grufo interesting. I haven't checked the history section. You might be done.

I just wrote my offer to collaborate in 'Talk'. I can enlighten on some questions. But that will be to show the problems in the way PDs are treated. There won't be any source, that's the problem. How to prove vagueness and approximations in the absence of a study proving thes aspects? Actually we have no choice but fill in gaps because Even some experts from the field of psychoanalysis come upe with their homemade theories to make mattters even worse. Also, Kernberg calls BPD a first defense mechanism, I realized he meant 'trauma' (making the event about yourself sp as tp jave an illusion of control). NPD is the 2nd. (retrieval to grandiosity). But making things about oneself is already grandiosity...

Actually the vulnerable NPD is the mmost common (D.Ettensohn) I hope you'll read me, bye! Leaving Neveland (talk) 21:56, 30 December 2023 (UTC)