User talk:WikiFlier

The following is a discussion about the inclusion of three characters (呉廷琰) representing the name of former Vietnamese president Ngo Dinh Diem.

The discussion and the accompanying collective vandalism gives a fascinating view of ethno-centric narrow-mindedness and doctrinaire censorship by Chinese-illiterate "intellectuals" in the U.S. and Europe.

See here for a non-vandalized version of the underlying article.

Chinese Characters for Diem's Name

 * Money Quote from Amore Mio, "academic writer" 
 * First, let me be straight. I don't care about how Chinese write down the name of Diem, or what assumption you got from a Chinese book. Let me be clear again, I don't have time to read all your document ...

Please REFRAIN from deleting the Chinese characters for Diem's name unless (1) you can actually READ them and (2) you can establish that they are wrong. As any Vietnamese - particularly of Diem's generation - appreciates, Chinese characters convey information that is not present in the Roman letter spelling. In addition, there is a sense that only the name in Chinese characters is truly authentic. The Chinese characters constituting the names of Diem and his brothers can be understood as indicating political ambitions (dinh means royal court). WikiFlier (talk) 19:00, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Please REFRAIN from adding Chinese characters for Diem's name unless (1) you can establish that they are ACTUALLY USED. I'm sick and tired of original research indiscriminately adding Chinese characters to Vietnamese names without providing citation that they are the correct characters, or that they appear in any official document.  And no, copying straight from Chinese wiki is not proper citation, there are plenty of cases where the characters they used are just phonetic transliteration.  As anyone who can read Vietnamese appreciates, Chinese characters are no longer in use in Vietnamese for almost a hundred years.  And as someone who's born Catholic, his use of the Chinese characters are even more limited. DHN (talk) 19:11, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

DHN - like many California Vietnamese - seems extremely sensitive about the fact that Vietnam used Chinese writing until quite recently, and that the Communist elite continues to insist on some classical Chinese education for its offspring to the present day. However, please remember that this is Wikipedia, not DHN's personal site. DHN's technical point - that Chinese characters should be valid - is correct as far as it goes, but (1) we are not talking about any odd Nguyen, we are talking about the president of the Republic of Vietnam, who was written about extensively in Chinese (including Chinese papers in South Vietnam) at the time - it is preposterous to suggest that the characters consistently used in Chinese for this particular individual could be wrong; (2) Diem's father was a Vietnamese mandarin and thus had to sit the imperial exam in classical Chinese - notwithstanding their convenient Catholicism, the Ngo family were heavily influenced by Chinese language and culture; (3) if DHN feels doubt about the correctness of Chinese characters, the courteous and proper approach is to insert a query into the article, NOT to slaughter useful and relevant information. WikiFlier (talk) 20:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * " California Vietnamese - seems extremely sensitive about the fact that Vietnam used Chinese writing until quite recently, and that the Communist elite continues to insist on some classical Chinese education for its offspring to the present day" clearly shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. DHN (talk) 21:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * In that case, pray enlighten us! For example, could you remind us what Ho Chi Minh thought about classical Chinese? BTW, can you actually read complex, academic works (e.g. re history) in Vietnamese? Thank you. WikiFlier (talk) 22:00, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You have it backwards. Overseas Vietnamese seem to be the ones more interested in preserving Chinese characters than the government in Vietnam.  The Nom Preservation Foundation has its origins in the US, so is the Institute of Vietnamese studies, and the Han Nom fonts are developed by people outside of Vietnam.  The Vietnamese education system had stopped teaching Chinese characters in school decades ago.  The government had embarked on a program of "Vietnamizing" words with Chinese roots, such as "thủy quân lục chiến" -> "lính thủy đánh bộ", "máy bay trực thăng" -> "máy bay lên thẳng", "phi cơ" -> "máy bay". If I remember correctly, this is a source of ridicule among Vietnamese speakers outside of Vietnam. DHN (talk) 22:21, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That is truly interesting - sincere thanks. However, my remarks were about the actual Chinese language (i.e. classical Chinese), NOT about Vietnamese written in the old Chinese-style Chữ Nôm script. During the later periods of the Nguyen dynasty, the imperial examinations were in three parts: (1) Classical Chinese, i.e. Confucian writings etc.; (2) Vietnamese in Chữ Nôm script; (3) Vietnamese in Romanized script (as at present). Ho Chi Minh's uncle is said to have refused to take (3) on the grounds that romanizing Vietnamese is an abomination. WikiFlier (talk) 22:43, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Please read this book about the efforts to spread quoc ngu, especially the Viet Minh's and Ho Chi Minh's role, in 1945. DHN (talk) 22:51, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting stories in the book, but this is clearly a different cultural world than that inhabited by the mandarin Ngo family. Indeed, to them, Chinese literacy (also French and Latin) was a welcome entrance barrier to keep the majority of illiterate peasants in their place.

As regards the importance of Chinese culture, the government of the Republic of China (Taiwan) sought to flatter Diem at a state banquet (see cite in article) by saying: 三民主義與貴國的人本主義，皆淵源於固有的孔孟儒家仁民愛物的思想，實為現代自由民主精義之所在. (Roughly: the Three People's Principles and your nation's humanism both have their origins in the ideas of Confucius, Mencius and the Confucians of love for the people and for things, and the spirit of liberal democracy of our age is truly present [in both].) The speech takes it for granted that Diem (the guest of honor) sees Vietnam's ideological culture as rooted in Chinese Confucian precepts. WikiFlier (talk) 22:00, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * WF, you're a waste of time. Aside from the fact that Western political observers deemed NDD to be "Confucian" because of his nepotism, are they religiously learned? Well I wonder if he still partakes in ancestor worship, given that he once told an interviewer that the French aren't Catholic enough and he likes to model himself on a Spanish inquisitioner. This is nonsense and your OR is irrelevant.  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll )  23:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * YellowMonkey: Let's go a little easy on the ad hominems here. If you think WikiFlier is "a waste of time", please at least articulate the argument. To begin with, Confucianism being as much a secular tradition as a religion, it is quite possible and indeed common to be (sincerely) Confucian and Catholic at the same time - neither tradition seriously regards the other as incompatible. The broad question here is whether Diem (and his parents) were literate in classical Chinese (answer: emphatically yes). The narrower question is whether the specific characters chosen for Diem's name were regarded as being of relevance by the Ngo family. The article is clear that Ngo's father was a high-ranking mandarin. This means (as noted above) that he must have taken the rigorous mandarin examination which required in-depth familiarity with Chinese classics which he would have read in classical Chinese. We have now established that Diem's given name in Chinese characters was of profound relevance to his father (who presumably named him). This is more than amply sufficient to justify inclusion in Wikipedia. As for Diem himself, the article states "Diệm ... later entered a private school started by his father. Aged fifteen, he followed his elder brother ... into a monastery." It is reasonable to assume that Diem was instructed in literary Chinese by his father both at home and at his father's school until he turned 15, probably starting at a very early age, perhaps 4. Bottom line: the Chinese characters are correct, verifiable and relevant, so let's keep them in the article for those readers who understand Chinese and/or want to connect the dots. WP is a site for the public, not a private sandbox, and the established policy is to err on the side of providing verifiable information as far as possible.
 * Look, Diem and his brothers went to Quoc Hoc in hue, which was run by their father, and the school then used Quoc ngu. he then went to a French-run uni in Vietnam, which did not use Chinese, and he didn't use Chinese in the French bureaucracy, he did not pass a Confucian mandarin test/system. Then in 1945 and onwards, he did not use Chinese either  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll )  00:23, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
 * We seem to be losing track of the question at hand - is there a significant reason NOT to include the Chinese characters in the article. Given the width of WP's inclusion criteria, opponents bear the burden of proving that the characters are either not verifiable (verification has been provided), or that there is a fundamental reason NOT to include relevant information.
 * The fact that some editors fiercely oppose the inclusion militates in favor of inclusion. "Information is what someone does not want you to know". Frankly, a large part of the problem is that WikiFlier is apparently the only participant in the discussion who reads Chinese, and now finds himself in the position of having to explain the color of milk to a blind man. It is highly significant that the JAPANESE WP page naturally includes the Chinese characters, even though Diem's name was written phonetically in Japan. Clearly, the Japanese - who are regularly exposed to Chinese characters - are alive to the fact that Chinese characters convey significant information that phonetic representations do not.
 * As regards YellowMonkey's specific points: we have no evidence as to what was taught at Ngo's father's school, but there can be little doubt that Vietnamese was taught in Quoc ngu there. But it is also highly likely that the students were taught classical Chinese, just as private schools in the West teach Latin and Greek to this day.
 * The question at hand is different and much more limited, and can perhaps be put as follows: was Diem himself aware of the Chinese characters constituting his name? Could he write his name in Chinese characters? Given his background, and the evidence of the Republic of China speech cited in the article, both questions must emphatically be answered in the affirmative. The Chinese characters must stay in keeping with WP's mission to inform.WikiFlier (talk) 03:08, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a diplomatic document which ROV sent to Taiwan so it is should be written in Chinese following international relationship standard. Moreover, this is not the original document thus I highly doubt that this is an transcription into Chinese from a Vietnamese document. What make you use this document as an evidence proving that Diem have used Han Tu or his father gave him a Han Tu version of his name? I don't think it is solid enough to use in this circumstance. If you really want to add Han Tu to his name, please give an other citation.--AM (talk) 03:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * AM is obviously illiterate in Chinese and English. If he had troubled to read WikiFlier's comments, he would have realized that the document is not "a diplomatic document which ROV sent to Taiwan so it is should be written in Chinese following international relationship standard [sic]." AM and Yellow Monkey have been working hand in glove on a Khmer Rouge type mission to keep out information that conflicts with their narrow world view - see note to AM from Yellow Monkey (reposted from AM's user page), and WikiFlier's response (below). WikiFlier (talk) 03:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * [Post by YellowMonkey on AM's user page, AM promptly obliged by vandalizing WikiFlier's edits again] Some guy flooding Diem and family with Chinese again  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll )  23:45, 4 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, I'm sorry. I read this piece of text too quick so that I think this is a diplomatic document because of its last sentence and the way Diem used "On behalf of ROV's people". Now I read this again and I think it is even harder to use it as an evidence to prove that Diem officially has a Han Tu version of his name since the original document which this site gave has no national seal of ROV. You know, I'm a so-called academic writer, I respect the fact not the opinion. If you can give me a right citation, I would like to protect your addition. If you can not, I would like to revert it because it is nothing than an OR of you. You need not to cry or give me false charge like above.--AM (talk) 07:44, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * First things first - this is Wikipedia, not academic writing. The standard for inclusion of information in Wikipedia is verifiability, not authenticity or primary source status. For example, a newspaper account or a book is an appropriate source. So the reference to the "national seal of ROV" is a red herring and is irrelevant. Obviously, AM has not read the original document in Chinese (presumably AM is not literate in Chinese). Also, edits based on a cited source are not "original research". Original research would be, e.g. contacting Ngo's family for information, or looking up records in a government office in Vietnam.
 * The document cited by WikiFlier is an official document published by the Republic of China (ROC), NOT the Republic of Vietnam. It is reasonable to expect that the ROC diplomats - who must have been dealing with Diem on a near-daily basis - knew the correct characters for his name. Getting the name of the guest of honor on an official state visit wrong would be a major faux pas in Asia (and even among "sophisticated" Europeans). The ROC document is ample verification. It is also highly relevant that the speech assumes that Ngo - the guest of honor - is familiar with Mencius. AM/YellowMonkey - did you know who Mencius is? What is he called in Vietnamese?
 * All secondary sources in Chinese (e.g. contemporary newspaper accounts etc.) are in accord, and the name has remained in the public eye to Chinese readers to the present day. Furthermore, the names for Diem's siblings are consistent in character usage, thus providing internal verification in addition to the individual sourcing. Wikipedia verification requirements are amply satisfied. WikiFlier (talk) 15:37, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
 * First, let me be straight. I don't care about how Chinese write down the name of Diem, or what assumption you got from a Chinese book. Let me be clear again, I don't have time to read all your document because I'm not expert and I'm not interested in reading Chinese ANY MORE. All I would like to do is a quick read and I could draw out a fact that this is not an offical document from ROV to ROC. So I can't accept that document as an envidence to prove that Ngo Dinh Diem used to use Chinese characters for his name. Moreover, if you keep charging me falsely, I will report you to WP:ANI as you are personally attacking me.--AM (talk) 03:18, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, everyone here totally believes that Amore Mio could previously read sophisticated Chinese, but now "doesn't have the time". (At least, your friend YellowMonkey will surely back you on this - right?) Of course, despite his lack of "time" to read a simple supporting document, Amore Mio the "academic writer" shows no hesitation in deleting edits that he obviously CANNOT READ.


 * Sadly, after repeated explanations, Amore Mio still claims to misapprehend Wikipedia's sole criterion for inclusion of information - verification (see discussion above). The fact is that Diem was consistently referred to as 吳廷琰 since at least 1957 (see e.g. | here and numerous other sources | here.


 * The fact that Diem was referred to as 吳廷琰 in verifiable sources is ALL that is required under applicable Wikipedia standards. There is absolutely no requirement that the document in question be "official" or originate with the Republic of Vietnam. As for any residual doubt regarding the possibility of the characters being merely phonetic stand-ins, the fact that the characters were used by the Republic of China during an official visit by Diem, in conjunction with the fact that Diem's father was a Vietnamese mandarin who must have been educated in classical Chinese serves to negate this hypothesis resoundingly. WikiFlier (talk) 04:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * YellowMonkey and friends evidently have a hard time dealing with the real story of Vietnam. Classical Chinese traditions and, yes, the actual language has been and remains a significant factor among the Vietnamese elite. For example, the article on Sun_Tzu specifically notes the following (emphasis added):


 * Ho Chi Minh translated the work for his Vietnamese officers to study.


 * Let's have the courage to look at Vietnam in context, instead of airbrushing out the facts that do not fit into the mass-propaganda picture created by Vietnam's intellectuals since the late 1800s. WikiFlier (talk) 03:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * What the hell a Ho Chi Minh's action has to do with Ngo Dinh Diem? Ho Chi Minh was a son of a mandarin and he had spent a significant portion of his life in China, so what make it so different when he knew Chinese?--AM (talk) 07:44, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah - "Ho Chi Minh was a son of a mandarin...". So was Diem, as we have established. AM may not be cognizant of the difference between modern and classical Chinese - the bottom line is that learning to read classical Chinese takes years of study (key part of Vietnamese mandarin's curriculum), and cannot be picked up on the street. Again, the issue here is whether Diem or his father were at least fleetingly cognizant of the relevance and meaning of the characters. More importantly, of course, the governments of Vietnam and of the Republic of China were profoundly aware of the characters, as was and is the entire Chinese-reading world. But perhaps the views of a billion plus Chinese don't count to AM because they are not sophisticated Europeans and Americans who read books written by college profs in English. This is known as an "ethno-centric world view". WikiFlier (talk) 15:20, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * How does a document from the ROC government prove that Diem ever wrote his name in Chinese? It's ridiculous to suggest that just because the CPV wrote Nong Duc Manh's name in Chinese in the Chinese-language portion of their website that the Chinese characters are relevant, or just because in Vietnamese Hu Jintao's name is rendered as Hồ Cẩm Đào that it's relevant to include it in the article about him. DHN (talk) 22:14, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * To begin with - all we need to establish is that Diem was generally known by the Chinese characters 吳廷琰. Over and above this Wikipedia requirement, WikiFlier has shown that 吳廷琰 was the name used during Diem's state visit to the Republic of China.


 * The seeming symmetry in DHN's argument is a fallacy. The point is that the Chinese characters carry information that the romanized spelling does not. The relationship between Chinese characters to Vietnames reading is many-to-one - different Chinese characters may be read identically in Vietnamese (including tones). Conversely, a given word such as Đình or Diệm could generally be written with different Chinese characters. The choice of specific characters is of great significance and remains so among the educated elite in Vietnam.


 * Wikipedia versions elsewhere in the Sinosphere - Japan and Korea - include the Chinese characters in the Diem article as a matter of course even though they normally write his name phonetically. But of course, for the English version we should all be guided by the superior insights (or unseeing inspiration?) of "Amore Mio" who is, after all, an "academic writer" which, of course, puts his pronouncement and vandalism beyond criticism by mere literate mortals. WikiFlier (talk) 04:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Eurabia
I suggest that you use the talk page to discuss the edits you want to make the article on Eurabia. You have had three goes at essentially the same edit, and each time they have been reverted. As far as I can tell from your edit summaries, you believe that your edits are necessary to give the article a neutral point of view and anyone who disagrees with you is a vandal. This is not very persuasive.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:35, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

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