User talk:Wiki Raja/Archive 12

WikiProject Malaysia announcement
Hi there. I just want to announce that this month's collaboration will be ΦЏ Orang Asli ЏΦ. You are encouraged to participate in improving the quality of this article by however means you wish. I would suggest that our target by the end of the month would be for this article to achieve a Good Article status. Happy editing! kawaputra torque 13:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

AN/I
A discussion thread involving you has been started in AN/I. - KNM Talk 17:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Tamil-stub and Dravidian-stub
Hi - I see you have recently created one or more new stub types. As it states at Stub, at the top of most stub categories, and in many other places on Wikipedia, it is recommended that new stub types are proposed prior to creation at WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals, in order to check whether the new stub type is already covered by existing stub types, whether it is named according to stub naming guidelines, whether it is otherwise correctly formatted, whether it reaches the standard threshold for creation of a new stub type, and whether it crosses existing stub type hierarchies. Your new stub type is currently listed at WP:WSS/D - please feel free to make any comments there as to any rationale for this stub type. And please, in future, consider proposing new stub types first! Grutness...wha?  01:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting edit summary comments by Bakasuprman
Here are some interesting comments made by Bakasuprman in his previous edit summaries: . This individual has something against folks who do not belong to the same faith as this user which was also the case with the recent 3RR this person committed. Further, the admin who let him of the hook makes me feel that he also favors editors of the same interests. Wiki Raja (talk)

Oh yeah, BTW, the admin Nishkid64 who blocked me stated that I did not engage in dialog on the page I was reverting. However, I did here. But wait a minute, something odd has occurred. That edit does not show in the history section [here. Something fishy is going on. [[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] (talk) 04:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Nothing fishy is going on. I see the issues you see regarding Bakasuprman, but the edits you mentioned are old. The most recent comes from October 2007, and the least recent date back to July and August 2006. There's nothing I can, or should, do about that now. Your edits do show up in the history of Talk:Bharatanatyam; they are, in fact, among the top-most edits in the history. --  tariq abjotu  05:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You are partially right that I have edits on that page. However, the following edits which show on the talk page do not show in the history. Please look at the dates in bold face below really close.

03:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC):
 * Appears on talk page here.
 * Does not appear in history here.

06:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC):
 * Appears on talk page here.
 * Does not appear in history here.

Wiki Raja (talk) 05:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Um... they do appear in the history. The edit dated 03:10, January 24 (UTC) appears here and the edit dated 06:18, January 24 (UTC) appears here. --  tariq abjotu  06:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Er... Kindly explain the phenomena of having two different dates here. I'll be a little more descriptive. Look carefully above my edit and you will see Revision as of 20:11, 23 January 2008 (edit) (undo) in blue bold face. Next, look inside the green box below and you will see the date 03:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC) right after my username. Please explain that to me since I am getting a headache trying to figure out the marvels of magic here. Wiki Raja (talk) 06:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm going to guess that you live in the Mountain Time Zone. I see Revision as of 22:11, 23 January 2008 because I live in the Eastern Time Zone. The timestamp you see at the end of comments is in UTC (hence the (UTC)). When daylight-saving time is not in effect, the Mountain Time Zone is seven hours behind UTC (UTC-7) and, likewise, the Eastern Time Zone is five hours behind UTC (UTC-5). --  tariq abjotu  06:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright, I see now. Thanks for the explanation and sorry for the inconvenience. Regards. Wiki Raja (talk) 08:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Name change request
Please add your opionion (when you are back) to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tamil_civilization please. Thanks Taprobanus (talk) 15:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Help with Tamil script!
Dear Wiki Raja:

Greetings. How are you? I need your help. Can you type the Tamil name of this political party found here (http://dapmalaysia.org/newenglish/) in this Wiki, Democratic Action Party? I will appreciate it very, very much! Cheers, AppleJuggler (talk) 04:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Template:User South African Tamil
A tag has been placed on Template:User South African Tamil requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it is substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes (&lt;noinclude>&#123;{transclusionless}}&lt;/noinclude>).

Thanks. --MZMcBride (talk) 19:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

user Srirangam99 - hello Sir, need your help with regard to making changes on the Chola page
Sir,

I am new to Wikipedia and was saddened to see vandalization of some history pages related to Tamil Nadu like the Chola page with this great empire being relegated to the level of a Dynasty and miniscule empires which largely remained confined to their own state like Hoysalas etc. being called empires. Also equally misleading and vicious is the act of adding a section called Chalukya Cholas to refer to Chola kings whose only fault it seems was that they hailed from the maternal line of the Cholas. You will agree that in none of their available and verifiable records and inscriptions did the kings from Kulothunga I to Rajendra III ever address themselves as Chalukya Cholas, Chola Chalukyas etc. They even gave themselves only Tamilian names like Rajaja, Rajendra, Kulothunga etc. It seems like the title Chalukya Chola was given by vicious elements to show that the main Chola emperical line came to a close and that this empire depended on survival which it did through take over of the empire by Chalukya kings. In all fairness, even if in ignorance was this act to be done, then also the name that should have been given to these kings should have been the Eastern Chalukya Chola kings and not Chalukya Cholas.

Sir, could you pls. help me with the changing of title of Chalukya Cholas to the Later Cholas (this is something I have done in the Chola dynasty page by changing the heading in the para appearing after the Medieval Cholas). I was the name Chalukya Cholas changed to Later Cholas in the index attachment which gives the chronology on the Chola page.

Also I need your help in changing the title of the page Chola Dynasty to Chola Emperors. (I also saw with regret the irresponsible and insensitive reply given to you by user KNM in justifying the title Chola dynasty instead of Chola empire given to this line of Kings from Tamil Nadu). For your information, I am also pointing out to a lot of controversial insertions, innuendos and attribution of superlatives to the Chalukya and Hoysala kings by user Dinesh Kannambadi.

Could you kindly reply on my talk page, Sir?

Thank you very much.

Srirangam99 (talk) 09:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks Wiki Raja, I'm already there on it. Right now am doing some home work on another project I'm on. I've some material on things related to Tamil history too, especially political history.

WP:INDIA Tagging with TinucherianBot for WikiProject Tamil Nadu
FYI- Your attention and help is requested .You are receiving this note as you are the member of the project --  TinuCherian  (Wanna Talk?) - 09:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Sri Lankan Entries and Bias
Dear Wikiraja

I congratulate you for tagging some entries which have been taken over by overzealous editors who turn the real facts into race based campaigns.

Sri Lankan entries have a Sinhala Buddhist bias, intent on hijacking the sites for their own imperialistic agenda. All the rational people should step in and let the truth prevail.

As this will be an ongoing problem we may have to resort to a committee which should attend to evaluate all Sri Lankan entries for bias and prejudice.

--Nina Leembruggen II (talk) 04:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:INDIA Tagging for WP:Andhra Pradesh with TinucherianBot
Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Andhra_Pradesh. Your attention and help is requested .You are receiving this note as you are the member of the project --  TinuCherian  (Wanna Talk?) - 10:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject India Newsletter Volume III, Issue no. 001 - June 2008
This newsletter is automatically delivered by TinucherianBot (talk) 07:13, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Portal:Andhra Pradesh
I have started Portal:Andhra Pradesh, your contributions will be helpfull.Vijay Sai (talk) 06:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That is awesome! Keep up the good work! Wiki Raja (talk) 07:48, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

tamil people
I was looking at the talk page and wondering where you stood on the issue. Do you believe they are multi-ethnic community or an ethnic group? The sources I have read describe us as an ethnic group.24.21.50.248 (talk) 22:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Saying that Tamils are a multi-ethnic group is just propaganda used by Indo-revisionists in order to discredit us as a whole. If Tamils constitute a multi-ethnic group, then, who are those ethnic groups that would compose the population of Tamils? So, the answer is that Tamils are an ethnic group of its own. Wiki Raja (talk) 09:18, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Response to your response
Hello Raja,

Malay and Tamil

 * If you look at the 27 July 2008 version, you will see that somebody wrote "Vatteluttu is also the earliest writing system used to write early Malay language, which received a lot of Tamil influence." It was much later that Malay borrowed words from Tamil.


 * It was actually on 19 June 2008 that this was added here. I strongly believe that before the introduction of the Vatteluttu or curvey Dravidian scripts, the people of the archipelagos had their own writing. I too share your frustration over statements like this. It would be ridiculous to state that Vatteluttu was their first form of writing, otherwise how did the people communicate? It seems that the Batak script (also found here) may have been the original form of writing. Even though these sites state that they may have originated from the Brhami form of writing or the "Pallava" script, I find that hard to believe. Furthermore, it could be possible that Kawi could be a combination of the indigenous Batak script with the Vatteluttu form of writing. Wiki Raja (talk) 23:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Sriwijaya
Did you know the Sri Vijayan empire travelled as far as Madagascar?
 * O. W. Wolters has demonstrated that Sriwijaya was not an "empire" but a city-state (much like today's Singapore) that from the 7th to the 13th centuries controlled the traffic in the Malacca Strait thanks to an alliance with the so-called Orang Laut who inhabited the islands between Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula. It was located in modern Palembang in southern Sumatra. Its population was hardly 50,000 at that time. As far as Madagascar is concerned, as early as the 9th century Arab authors talk about people they call "Waqwaq" coming from Southeast Asian islands on outrigger boats and calling at harbours on the eastern coast of Africa, bringing spices, forest products and other tropical goods and buying slaves. Some of these Waqwaq sailed also to Madagascar, whose coastal areas where not suited for rice growing, leading them to settle in the central highlands. This is why the Malgache language belongs to the Malayo-Polynesian branch of the Austronesian language family.

As you have provided on the definition of "empire", it states that:

"An empire is a state that extends dominion over populations culturally and ethnically from the culture or center of power."

Sri Vijaya, though starting from Sumatra, has expanded its dominion as far north as to Southern Thailand, to as far east as Southern Philippines. Thus, Sri Vijaya was an empire at one point in time.

As for the definition you have provided on "city-state", it states that:

"A city-state is a region controlled exclusively by a city, usually having sovereinty."

Therefore, Sri Vijay may have started off as a city state, but expanded its kingdom to contain numerous city-states, like that of Greece containing city-states of Athens, Sparta, and Corinth, just to name a few. Wiki Raja (talk) 23:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello Raja, Sriwijaya did not "(extend) dominion over populations culturally and ethnically from the culture or center of power". I repeat, it was a mere city, with a small hinterland. It controlled the traffic in the Malacca Strait, that was it. So it was a city-state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djoehana (talk • contribs) 06:01, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Would you then say that the areas of its domain were vassal states as shown on ? Wiki Raja (talk) 06:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This map seems to be pure fantasy. The myth of a "Sriwijayan empire" stems from Coedes' assumption that the kingdom mentioned in ancient Arab and Chinese texts may have controlled a vast territory. This myth was then used by Indonesian nationalism to support the argument that there was a unified polity that controlled the archipelago before the Dutch came. But since then no evidence that Sriwijaya ever controlled the territories mentioned in the map has been found. In fact the Chola's attack of Sriwijaya in 1025 may not have been a difficult job since Sriwijaya was just a city of maybe only 50,000 inhabitants. Djoehana (talk) 06:37, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Could you kindly provide me some reference sources where I can read up on this? Wiki Raja (talk) 06:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The Fall of Srivijaya in Malay History, O. W Wolters, Cornell University Press, 1970 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djoehana (talk • contribs) 09:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for all the questions, but I actually have that book in front of me. Would you happen to know which page or under which "key word" I can look it up in the index? Wiki Raja (talk) 11:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I plan to consult the book back in Paris but am still in Jakarta... :-) Djoehana (talk) 15:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Malay and the Polynesian languages
I've learned from reading that there are Malay words in the Polynesian languages such as Tonga, Samoa, and Tahiti.
 * Actually, Malay and Polynesian languages are part of the so-called "Malayo-Polynesian" branch of the Austronesian family, which linguists have precisely named for this reason. This branch also includes the various languages of the Philippines, Indonesia and the Pacific. The other branches of the family are only found in Taiwan.

Very interesting. Would you be interested in joining with me to form a WikiProject Malayo-Polynesian civilizations? There is already a WikiPoject for Polynesia and Indonesia. However, with forming such a WikiProject, this would go beyond borders and expand into areas not covered by the present WikiProjects. Let me know what you think. Wiki Raja (talk) 23:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as a "Malayo-Polynesian civilisation". What you have is Malayo-Polynesian languages. You do find many cultural traits common to the various Malayo-Polynesian and Austronesian speaking people. But then some of them have adopted cultural elements from other people. For example western Indonesia has adopted many cultural elements from southern India, the earliest known proof of which being dated circa 450 AD.

That was actually stated as "Malayo-Polynesian civilizations" with an (s) denoting multiple civilizations sharing a commonality. So then you say that Malayo-Polynesian only relates to language and not ethnicity? Wiki Raja (talk) 06:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I missed the "s". However, "Malayo-Polynesian" is a linguistic concept, not an ethnic one, let alone a genetic one. A research was conducted in 2002 by a team including biologist, showing that there was a gradient regarding the presence of a genetic marker amongst modern Indonesians, with a growing presence of a "Taiwan" marker when going from eastern to western Indonesia, eastern Indonesia showing a larger presence of a "Melanesian" marker found amongst Pacific people. As Christian Pelras, a French anthropologist on southern Celebes likes to repeat, people can change their cultures and languages! One proof of that are the French, who descend from Celtic-speaking people and speak a Latin language, Djoehana (talk) 09:42, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Very true about how people can change their cultures and languages (by being conquered, through marriage, or just on their own). However, people cannot change their ethnic makeup physically. Also, since we are on the Malayo-Polynesian topic, I did wonder about Melanesians and Micronesians, and as to where they may fall under linguistically and/or ethnically. Wiki Raja (talk) 11:44, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The Austronesians
One of my interests is in cultural diffusion, or the history of cultures communicating and sharing influences with one another.
 * Circa 5,000 years before present, people started to migrate from the coastal areas of southern China to Taiwan. Some 1,000 years later, some of their descendants started to sail to the Philippines. A bit later, their own descendants in turn started to sail southwards to Eastern Indonesia and eastwards to the Pacific. These people were obviously sailors. Outrigger boats are their contribution to marine technology... :-)


 * More interesting information. Could you perhaps provide a reference source, so I can read more about this? Also, I believe that not all the people of China are related to the Malayo-Polynesians as there are also numerous ethno/linguistic groups in China. This may sound controversial to a Chinese nationalist, likewise an Indian or a Indonesian nationalist, but I am here to promote and maintain historical truths. You could be right on the relations with Taiwan and Southern China, which I shall read more about. :) Wiki Raja (talk) 23:57, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose the best reference would be The Austronesians by Peter Bellwood, James Fox and Darrell Tryon of the Australian National University (1995). You can read abstracts of it at books.google.co.id. As for Austronesian languages in today's southern China, there is no evidence. The theory that places the origin of Austronesians in southern China is based on a number of evidences but not on the current existence of Austronesian languages there. An Austronesian language, the Tsat language, is spoken on Hainan island, but its speakers have settled in a period more recent to the ancient migrations from the mainland to Taiwan 5,000 years BPE.

Javanese script and Balinese script
wasn't the original name for Jawa Kawi, and Bali script Carakan?
 * Kawi (from Sanskrit kavya) is the name given to the old Javanese language used in the inscriptions and texts up to the 15th century. The word carakan comes from the first line of five letters of the Javanese alphabet (of which the Balinese script is a variant) "ha na ca ra ka" to which the suffix "-n" has been added. Djoehana (talk) 12:49, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the info. Wikipedia is indeed a place to learn and exchange knowledge, while editing at the same time. Wiki Raja (talk) 23:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Melanesia and Micronesia
I did wonder about Melanesians and Micronesians, and as to where they may fall under linguistically and/or ethnically.
 * It was French navigator and explorer Dumont d'Urville who coined these words. "Melanesia" is formed on two ancient Greek words and means "islands of the black people" while "Micronesia" means "small islands". These distinctions are no longer considered as relevant. The people of these regions speak languages belonging to the Malayo-Polynesian branch of the Austronesian languages, Djoehana (talk) 15:20, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Tsat language
Never heard of the Tsat language, other than Hokkien, Fukkien, Cantonese, and Mandarin, but shall further research that. Thanks. Wiki Raja (talk) 06:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please have a look at ethnologue.com article on Tsat, Djoehana (talk) 15:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Indigenous Australians and Melanesians
Do you think there may be a connection between Melanesia and the indigenous people of Australia (aborigines) ethnically. Wiki Raja (talk) 21:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If you refer to the fact that both are "black", you are certainly aware that phenotype i. e. physical appearance, especially skin, hair and eye colour is determined by only a very small number of genes. However, the settlement of Australia being the result of migrations from the Asian mainland at a time when the sea level was much lower, allowing for landbridges, these people have certainly common ancestors. However, linguistically speaking, there is no connection between the Austronesian languages spoken by the Melanesians, the indigenous Australian languages and by the way, the Papuan languages spoken by the people of New Guinea highlands, who are also "black". Skin colour is not the best notion to understand things! :-) Djoehana (talk) 00:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You're correct by stating that "skin color is not the best notion to understand things". I've seen very dark skinned Chinese fishermen in Malaysia. However, we can go by physical features such as the skull, and body structure, including facial features. Having seen some people from Palao, they have extremely dark skin, but with somewhat Malay looking faces, similar to those from Southern Philippines. I've also seen folks from Papua New Guinea which do not resemble the Malay face, but of the indigenous peoples of Northestern Australia, Eastern Africa, and even some Tamilians of Southern India and Sri Lanka. It is agreeable when you state that there may have been some migrations when the sea level was much lower. It is possible that migrations from Southeast Asia, South Asia, and even East Africa may have taken place thousands of years ago. Wiki Raja (talk) 10:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)