User talk:Wikiferdi/Archive Apr 2007

Regained territories and history of Poland
First, read up on NPOV - you should avoid opinions ('it is wrong'). Second, read up on Manual of style - capitalise/link 'soviet', 'polish', etc. Third: provide sources for your arguments - see Cite sources. Fourth: the History of Poland is no place for detailed description of this event, you should discuss it at Expulsion of Germans after World War II. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I admit your new entry (This happened without the agreement of the...) is much better. However, it is not perfect - I will reply at Talk:History of Poland soon. It is good you gave a source - next time, when inserting sourced material into articles, add the source to 'reference' section and link it with relevant para via Footnotes so there is no doubt it comes from a source. It is much less likely that a sourced addition will be reverted/removed. However, I don't understand why do you think that any source to the contrary must come from 'polish communists or nationalists'. This statement reeks to much of How to deal with Poles - please be more careful what you write and avoid personal attacks. And do remember to do your edits as a registered user (otherwise I have no way of knowing they were done by you or some anon), and sign your posts in talk using --~. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:36, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Davies that the 'Regained Territories' were mostly a 'war loot', which victorious powers divided between themselves. One can argue how much Polish or German those territories were and never reach a clear answer - it is a grey line. I am not sure about Pomerania/Pomorze, but I live in Silesia and have read much about this region, and this is definetly a grey area: this region was (and partially, still is) a unique mixture of German and Polish people's and cultures, one that could never be described as 'purerely Polish' or 'purely German'. The very fact that there was and is the 'Silesian culture' is a proof that there is something more here then just Polish and Germans influences. And yes, you are right saying that what expelled Germans suffered was close to what they did to the Slavs living there. Again, quoting Davies: '[the expulsions] put for the first time the normal German civilians in the same situations that most Slavic inhabitans of Eastern Europe had lived in and considered 'normal' for many years now'. I am not sure about your arguments on legality - my sources don't cover this. However, again, Davies stresses and I agree that Poles had nothing to say regarding the creation of those policies - it was agreed upon by the Allies and SU, and carried out by SU and its puppets. Poland had no say on the making of those policies, it only had a part in carrying them out (administration of the expulsion/resettlement and such). While there was a definite Polish involvment in this, which I won't deny, I would like to note that a) majority of Poles in that time were opposed to the Communist government b) many opposed to the border change and thus the related expulsion of Germans, and none except the few Polish communists had any say in this (and Polish Communists were Stalin's puppets). See Polish people's referenda, 1946: communist government had only 27% support, and border change 66% (it was strongly advocated as the 'peace forever' and was carried out in the situation were Poland's former eastern territory, the Kresy, was already annexed by the Soviet Union, so millions of people expelled from there and already settled by Soviets in the Regained territories had the choice 'vote yes and stay in the Regained Territories' or 'vote no and settle in tiny 'middle' central Poland/risk some Soviet wrath/live in Germany/SU' - not much of a choice, I think). If Poland was able to shape its own borders, I am sure it would prefer for them to stay as they were pre-1939. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:00, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Hello Piotrus,
take a look on the talk about history of Poland!

For you the history about Silesia is a grey area because the communists ... after WWII demolished the German culture there. As I said Upper Silesia had a Polish-speaking minority, Lower Silesia a Polish-Speaking minority was negligible. Please, read my texts exactly and don´t distort! Not the expelled Germans assaulted the Polish people. This had been the German soldiers, the Gestapo, the SS ... Well, I understand, it would be nicer for the Polish concience to have expelled guilty people - but the German expellees were mainly innocent. The Soldiers ... were fallen in the war or they were prisoners of war. The expelled Germans were mainly women, children, elderly. Well I have the impression you don´t have much knowledge about Germany in times of Hitler. Here a crash course: Hitler was Austrian from the frontier to Germany. He chose Munich to live. He fought in the WWI for the Germans. Maybe he went totally mad during this time (beginning of "modern warfare" - mustard gas ...). The Nazi party was founded in Bavaria. But in Silesia, there was one of the most important christian anti-Fascist center: The "Kreisauer Kreis" (P. Alfred Delp SJ ...). My opinion is, that you shouldn´t generalize people. In each people there are perpetrators and victims.

Wikiferdi


 * Of course generalisations will always contain mistakes. I am reminded of the story I once read of the two brothers from Polish part of Silesia before the IIWW. The older one was drafted into Polish army and after the September Campaign he escaped to join Polish army forming in France and later UK. The younger one was drafted into Wehrmacht. Both fought the war to the very end in their respecitive armies. Was their family German or Polish? Another interesting fact: many Silesians were drafted into German army, yet they deserted and join the Allies, usually, the Polish forces in the West. By the end of the war, 89,300 of such deserters made 35.8% of Polish army in the West (source - Polish contribution to World War II, referenced to ). I am not sure why are we talking about this - I think we mostly agree on related points. Or is there some specific thing I wrote that you disagree with? PS. Please learn to sign with date. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Explain reverts
See: Talk:History of Poland--Witkacy 14:10, 8 August 2005 (UTC)