User talk:Xblkx/Marty Munsch

This subpage is for the discussion of the Marty Munsch article.

I have asserted that the article is in need of improvement and that I am going to give some attention to it....

I invite you to comment on what I wrote at User_talk:Gilliam about the Marty Munsch article. Every edit that everyone makes to challenge it is simply reverted by an IP user as vandalism... Xblkx (talk) 07:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Initial comments by SQGibbon regarding my challenges
This is the first time I've really read the article (the one edit I made was pretty easy based on the diffs) and holy crap it needs help. I've only been through a few of the references but so far it doesn't look good for the article. That said, he doesn't appear to be entirely non-notable. I don't know what to say, it will take several hours to go through and excise everything that's OR or is "supported" by bogus references and see what's left (if anything). So here are some ideas as to how to proceed. First (you should create a subpage here for this), let's go through all the references one by one, noting the text in the article, where the reference goes, if the reference says what it's supposed to, and if it's a good reference (i.e., not a blog, forum post, or non-notable site). Once that list is in place post it on the Talk page for the article and let's see if we can build a consensus that A) there is a problem and B) you've outlined the major problems that need fixing. Actually we should just do that and then see where it might lead. Maybe there will be enough left to make a legitimate article or maybe we'll need to go to WP:PROD. In any case, the process needs to be transparent, inclusive, and always assuming good faith on the part of the other editors involved. If things get contentious and outside help is needed (like say WP:ANI) then if you've followed good form it'll be a whole lot easier to make your point. I'll help where I can. SQGibbon (talk) 08:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, go to Talk:Marty Munsch and you can see some of my results. Basically I listed the information that is good enough to keep. SQGibbon (talk) 21:33, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Stuff that could be kept
You can see all this at Talk:Marty Munsch but I thought I'd put it here as well. These are all things where the sources are decent and the information checks out. I'm not saying it should all be included in the article as some of it may be trivial, but it's stuff that could go in.

I just spent 5 hours going through every sentence, link, reference, etc. trying to find what can be included in the article that meets Wikipedia's standards for WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:BLP, WP:NOTE, WP:COI, WP:AUTOBIO, WP:COS and whatever else. Here's what the article could say: Marty Munsch (born August 1967) is an American music producer. Munsch was born in Union County, New Jersey, and raised in the towns of Franklin Lakes and Wyckoff in Bergen County, New Jersey. Munsch is the principal owner of Punk Rock Records.(citation needed for all this but I think it's OK for the article for now).

Career: Manager of US Chaos in early '80s Link: http://www.sugarbuzzmagazine.com/bands/uschaos/uschaos.html

Producer on the album Victory Singles Volume 3 for the songs “Down the Drain” and “Parasite” by L.E.S. Stitches. Link: http://www.discogs.com/release/850465

Contributed video to: Punk's Not Dead: The Movie. Link: http://www.punksnotdeadthemovie.com/links.html

Engineer on the T.S.O.L. song “You've Come Undone” for T.S.O.L. Live 2005 CBGB's Live WFMU .Link:http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/17623 .SQGibbon (talk) 00:47, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I found this link http://allgrownupthemovie.com/whosinit.html which shows MMs involvement with the film All Grown Up. SQGibbon (talk) 21:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Update


 * I saw this movie and it was rather well done and not frivolous. I would support its inclusion in this article.  Xblkx (talk) 02:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Lead paragraph
I already mentioned the stuff that I thought could be kept from the lead paragraph above, so here's the stuff that I don't think belongs and why.

"He is a executive producer and music producer, record producer, recording engineer, talent manager, photographer, videographer" He may be all those things but nothing in the sources supplied support that claim. "Highly involved with production of many influential, as well as groundbreaking, underground and punk albums." Which ones? None that are sourced here. "Post production of factory duplication masters, and many albums with dozens of other seminal acid house and industrial style music, for many record labels and companies. Many releases of the period, along with literally hundreds of other ancillary or unrelated recordings, that had been quality controlled and mastered by him. Most of these releases were for worldwide released material, associated top 40 charting on Billboard Magazine[1]." Again, which albums?


 * material -- SOcal9045
 * Unfortunately that's a primary source. Even so a quick look at the list I don't see any Billboard Top 40 acts or any big name bands (exception Sex Pistols).  Still, we need secondary or tertiary sources. SQGibbon (talk) 06:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Link 1:goes to small image and nothing else. Does not support the claim. http://punkrockrecords.com/images/IMAGES1/notenjoyin.jpg

Munsch directs the overall sound of his recordings with a very involved, hands-on approach during studio production. Some sessions in part or whole, have been known to last weeks behind closed doors generally due to his unrestrained temper, on some of his more noted projects. [6]

Again, no sources. Lots of POV and OR stuff. Link[6]:goes to blog of Punk Rock Records (with some posts by MM). Does not mention any of this stuff but even if it did it's a blog and is not a reliable source.http://www.punkrockrecords.com/info/news.htm "Marty Munsch has sometimes been referred to as The Phil Spector Of Punk Rock because of his particular approach and style, that uses the wall of sound technique, that he has dynamically modified in conjunction with Analog signal processing (ASP) or Digital Signal processing (DSP). [2]" More original research. The link[2]: http://music4production.com/ An essay which does call MM “Phil Spector of Punk” but that's the only thing on the site. No author listed, nothing else on the site. Not a reliable source WP:RS

That's all for the lead paragraph. SQGibbon (talk) 01:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Punk Rock Records Wikipedia article and website
I noticed another article that seems to be related and have the same issues of WP:NPOV as the one I am discussing for the same reasons: Punk Rock Records. It also reads like a resume. The subject of the article is an organization whose website punkrockrecords.com is registered to Martin Munsch himself at his own email address: "prrnetwork@optonline.net" as is the website for a reference for his involvement All Grown Up: The Movie (a site also registered at his address) Punk Rock Records whois:

If one of the things that makes Mr. Munsch notable is owning Punk Rock Records, shouldn't the content of that article be merged into this article?

Xblkx (talk) 02:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I had noticed that connection as well and figured that article would need to be dealt with in good time. I hadn't thought of merging them but given the dearth of objective sources for both of them they might need to be merged.  My suggestion is that we finish the MM article first then plan how to deal with Punk Rock Records.  SQGibbon (talk) 03:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Early career and influences: The analysis
Continuing with the next section of stuff that I don't think should be in the article and why.

"His influences by the early Joe Meek, King Tubby and Phil Spector who he was an assistant to in his early beginnings. He also attributes some influences by Bill Price as well as Sandy Pearlman and guitarist Chris Spedding[3]"

If he really was an assistant to Phil Spector and that could be backed up it would be interesting. Unfortunately the source does not mention nor do any other sources provided. The link [3] mentions MM as manager for the band US Chaos which I suggested putting into the article. Not a terribly good source but perhaps reliable enough. 

"Starting as an assistant live audio engineer and repair technician in the late 1980s at the Capitol Theater, in Passaic New Jersey, then The Downtown Performance Center in Tucson, Arizona, for a brief time, eventually returning to New Jersey. During the 1990s, Munsch had pressed further into recording and producing many well known Punk, Ska and Hardcore punk groups. During the early 1990s; the artist Violent Society, who released the single East Coast Assholes E.P, (1993) and Not Enjoyin' It[4]"

Again, nothing to support these claims therefore no reason to include them in the article.
 * http://evideo.com/album/Violent-Society-Not-Enjoyin-It-MP3-Download/11102743.html supports these claims with name titled as Producer. --SOcal9045
 * Please do not erase comments put here by other editors. Just add to it and sign it.  Looks like a good enough source.  SQGibbon (talk) 07:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The link [4] goes to CDBaby music download company. Does not mention MM's involvement. 

LPCD released in 1994, was quoted by Maximum RocknRoll Magazine as being One of the top 10 best albums of the 1990s.

Even if Maximum RocknRoll Magazine did make this statement, it's not sourced nor is MM's involvement.


 * Is listed in paper print but not digital media on the website. --SOcal9045
 * OK, we need that properly written out. Whether it's notable or not ... SQGibbon (talk) 07:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The link[5]is actually just a footnote "East Coast Assholes E.P, 1993 'Not Enjoyin' It L.P. (1994) that was quoted by MaximumRocknRoll Magazine, As one of the top 10 best albums of the 1990's". However, I searched the magazine's website and could not find this review or any mention of MM.
 * MMR wesite is generalised, and will not have any items related; although the paper periodicals do have it, and will be listed.

"Washington D.C. group, The Suspects, to produce and co-engineer New Dawn In the 21ST Century In 1996 at, Inner Ear Studios.[6]"

The link [6] goes to a blog that supports the claim that MM produced the album but it's a blog post and is therefore not a reliable source. 
 * http://shittypunkblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/suspects-new-dawn-in-21st-century-1996.html --SOcal9045
 * Yes, that's the same source that's already there. Blogs are not considered reliable sources in Wikipedia.  SQGibbon (talk) 07:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

"While in New York City, he had briefly worked with noted producer Lee Perry, on a significant amount of remixed Clash dub material for reissue.[7][7]"

If a strong connection could be made between MM and The Clash (Joe Strummer specifically in this case) this would be notable, however... Link[7] is to Joe Strummmer's WP page and mentions nothing of MM. Reference [7] goes to a Joe Strummer fan site that mentions a connection between MM and Strummer from 1997 where MM worked on some remixes. Not a reliable source unfortunately. 

"Munsch is currently in protracted studio sessions with powerpop groups The Stun Gunz..." Not sure whether The Stun Gunz are notable but it doesn't matter since this link does not say anything about MM being connected with them. Link [8] goes to splash page for The Stun Gunz. Nothing else at the site. No mention of MM being connected with them. I just noticed that it's hosted on Punk Rock Records so maybe there's other information there relating the two. 

"...who were recently ranted about by Teenage Bottle Rocket.[8]" Not even sure why this part is relevant. Who cares what Teenage Bottle Rocket says about The Stun Gunz? Reference [8] is an irrelevant link to an interview that mentions The Stun Gunz. Does not mention MM at all. 

"The Flare Up's, for multiple recordings. He currently boasts a roster of over 1000 registered album compilation inclusions, and at least 35 known full LP productions, 16 full EP productions and about a dozen full production 45 RPM singles, by national as well as international artists. The bulk of his recent recordings and productions, are recorded with Bob Both, formerly of James Brown and Polygram Records. Munsch has also had several motion picture appearances in internationally acclaimed films. Marty (Martin) Munsch is listed in the Marquis Who's Who in Entertainment."

None of this is sourced. Appearing in Marquis Who's Who in Entertainment is not notable as anyone can appear in it.

That's it for this section. SQGibbon (talk) 08:01, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Content of user talk page User talk:68.193.213.46 has been deleted
At 00:08, 20 February 2010 this IP user reverted all of the 06:34, 17 February 2010 edits including the content by Gilliam advising against disruptive editing and vandalism. The user talk page is blanked (again).

I submit that there is continued vandalism from this IP address and that the IP address belongs to Marty Munsch. Is there a way to lock this IP user from editing Wikipedia?

Some evidence is presented:

Martin Munsch is the registrant of punkrockrecords.com and a whois lookup for that domain indicates the following:

Domain Name: PUNKROCKRECORDS.COM

Maybe they should call this person and do some interviews, I can get the office number.

This IP is listed in Atlanta GA? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SOcal9045 (talk • contribs) 06:50, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Clicking on the Whois link that Wikipedia offers for the IP user 68.193.213.46 indicates the IP user is on the same domain as the registrant's email address (optonline.net): Data from whois.arin.net: Optimum Online NETBLK-OOL-5BLK (NET-68-192-0-0-1) 68.192.0.0 - 68.199.255.255	Optimum Online (Cablevision Systems) OOL-CPE-WRWKNY-68-193-208-0-20 (NET-68-193-208-0-1) 68.193.208.0 - 68.193.223.255

Furthermore, the contributions for this IP user are nearly all exactly the same articles that are being examined including User talk:68.193.213.46, Marty Munsch, bands he produced U.S. Chaos, The_Freeze, article about the Stun Gunz (nominated for deletion: result - deletion), unsourced article Violent_Society_(band), ; also adding self (02:59, 2 May 200) as a "notable resident of Wyckoff,_New_Jersey.

It will be difficult to make progress on these articles while facing vandalism from this IP user. Xblkx (talk) 09:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I understand your frustration and concerns but it's a little early to call for a block/ban. Technically anyone can edit their own use talk pages however they want, including deleting content.  It's their talk page.  See User talk page.  I agree that it seems likely that this editor is Marty Munsch and that this could create problems in dealing with the article, however, I think we're handling things correctly and unless he blanks the Marty Munsch talk page or vandalizes this page there's really not much to do.  I'm going to upload more of my research in a little while (after breakfast), then we can discuss any points of interest/contention, create the new article in this space, propose that article at the Talk page for MM, give it time to see if anyone responds, maybe alert a friendly admin what we're doing (and ask for advice to make sure we've dotted all 'i's and crossed all 't's), and then change the article itself.  I'm thinking this entire process should take at least a week since we're proposing a major change to the article.  If Marty (assuming he's the anon IP) deletes these efforts, reverts without discussion, and so on, then we can bring it to the attention of the admins. Till then, I think everything's going as it should. SQGibbon (talk) 19:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I see your point about a user owning their own talk page. On thinking about it more, I was more concerned that the effort that we (and especially you recently) were doing could be much more difficult, but it does make more sense to wait until that happens and deal with it then if it does. I was also somewhat concerned that someone coming in late in our discussion may not be aware that the 'anonymous IP user' had been previously advised against disruptive editing and vandalism. But again, based on the procedural knowledge and other information I am learning from you and your detailed analysis, it doesn't matter.  The analysis of the content and the references will stand on its own.  Thank you again for all of your help.  This is very educational!  Xblkx (talk) 02:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Full Production discography:
Straight to the discussion of the references since this is otherwise just a list of stuff. Three claims from this section are included in my stuff that could be in the article so I won't mention them here.

Link 9: Footnote claiming involvement but no source supplied

Link 10: Footnote claiming involvement but no source supplied

Link 11: Link to WP article for Blanks_77 which makes same claim (unsourced in both places)

Link 12: Link to WP Article for Bob Both mentions MM as producer at Punk Rock Records and nothing else

Link 13: Same as #11

Links 14-29: Footnote claiming involvement but no source supplied

Basically just a lot of footnotes in this section. SQGibbon (talk) 21:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Studio post-production manufacturing
Sources are not supplied for anything listed in this section. SQGibbon (talk) 21:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Motion Picture
The Punk's Not Dead stuff is mentioned in the stuff to keep section. Another list so here are the references:

Link 31: Footnote, not useful. However MM was involved with movie (see above)

Link 32: IMDB page for Pariah. Does not mention MM.

Link 33: This one is better than I had originally thought. The link doesn't take you directly to MM's involvement but after searching deeper at the site I found this which indicates his involvement. The movie hasn't been released yet. I will update the stuff that can be used section with this information.

Link 34: Footnote

Reference 4: IMDB for The Pariah. Does not mention MM. Same as Link 32 above. SQGibbon (talk) 21:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Live Sound engineer
Another list. No sources supplied. Shouldn't use anything. SQGibbon (talk) 21:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Other
This entire section is problematical for various reasons. The first two parts are just MM talking about himself

"Although seen as generating music, steeped with heavy political undertones, Munsch tended to steer away from political ideology and tried to distance himself from political conversation during his recording sessions. He said that it caused him to become easily antagonistic toward his clients. His views on political ideology were generally slanted toward Survival of the Fittest. In the brutal music world, it reflected directly upon the total outcome of a live performance and the attitudes of musicians, their ability to concentrate and adhere to his strict production requirements as was documented, in out-takes, and unreleased rare footage, from the 2008 film. All Grown Up, directed by Andrea Witting.[35]"

It's all OR and the link goes to an interesting article about punk subculture. Mentions MM in bibliography but not in the article as a whole. No reason for link. .

"Munsch quoted: 'Music tends to be one of the most powerful tools and mediums in the human evolution. When someone wants to cause civil unrest, peace, calm or confusion, even stressing an enemy encampment to its limit. It changes views, in society overnight. It's as innocuous as elevator music and also can be insidious. It's omnipresent and it's not. It's a communication tool, as old as evolution or creation. A tool to shut the world down, as well as bringing someone back from a coma. Also, used to simply say hello'."

No source supplied for quote.

"Martin Munsch was the engineer who rendered duplication masters and quality control aspects for all Sugarhill Gang's music from 1989 to 1991 in Hillsdale, New Jersey at Master Duplications Inc (RIAA 1991). Munsch also coins the new genre mockingly as Trailer Metal, the term takes on its own life, due to his severe hatred for the new music style. It is soon to be called called 'death metal'. It later turns up years later as very popular form of Jazz influenced Speed metal."

No source for claims.

"IMDB Listing for films 1990-2007[36]"

Here's the link to the IMDB page showing search results for "Munsch" which shows his name isn't used anywhere on IMDB.

"He was also responsible for KLF recording QC; 'What Time Is Love?' alongside Einstürzende Neubauten[37] and a multitude of other final Master QC for recordings, as well as a massive catalog of that era. He was also known for inside QC master work, for over 100 selections for Musical Heritage Society classical compositions under the same agency. RIAA, ASCAP, BMI"

No source for most of this. The one link goes to davidicke.com forum where a post does mention MM's involvement with KLF. Not a reliable source. 

"Marty Munsch had met the punk band Violent Society at the prominent underground club The Pipeline in Newark, New Jersey in 1993 while he was employed as a regular sound engineer."

No source, but even if true why would it belong in an encyclopedia article?

"He also currently manages first-wave hardcore punk band U.S. Chaos along with a consistently new stream of groups, which include The Rilladiks, The Flare Ups and The Stun Gunz who appeared on the Vans Warped Tour. They are known for their Roots Rock approach, to rock and roll, who stride alongside forefathers Eddie Cochran and Canadian punk legends Teenage Head (band)."

The US Chaos bit is mentioned in the stuff to keep section. The rest of this is fluff.

"Marty Munsch, American producer, philanthropist and noted talent manager and owner of Punk Rock Records, had worked with Joe Strummer; on a final dub version mix of Revolution Rock. The mechanical version was acknowledged in 2002. [38]"

It seems pretty certain that he is the owner of Punk Rock Records but I haven't found a direct source to support this. Still, it's in the stuff to keep. The Joe Strummer bit is discussed elsewhere. The link [38] is a Footnote that claims an AP source but I could find nothing after searching the internet and AP.

"Records first ever American band version, of England's top 40 charting punk group The Boys, 'Fist Time' played and recorded by The Stun Gunz."

No source supplied.

"Recent appearance in Fort Bend Herald Newspaper with The Minnesota Twins, Shooter Hunt, Dennis Hopper, Tampa Bay Buccaneers quarterback. Chris Simms.[39]"

Link to newspaper site of Fort Bend Herald where an article by Don Munsch (no relation presumably) says this about MM “I also discovered, while doing research on Wikipedia, that Ramapo was the alma mater of one Marty Munsch, who works as a producer (among many ventures) in the music industry, particularly punk music.” That's it. Use of this line is horribly misleading because nothing at all connects MM to those people thus demonstrating bad faith on the part of the editor who included it. 


 * I almost commented earlier today on that same reference. This was simply a sports article that has no content regarding MM except that the author shared the same last name and happened to discover on Wikipedia that MM works as a producer etc., which is a circular link.  You just made that point by quoting the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xblkx (talk • contribs) 03:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That was the last link I audited so by the time I got to it I was tired and frustrated. When I read the newspaper article I was both laughing out loud and seething with rage.  Whereas the rest of the article was primarily peacock feathering this statement was a clear attempt to mislead the reader and rather cynically at that.  It did renew my interest in seeing this through to the end. SQGibbon (talk) 05:10, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

"The sources of the discographical information, may be slightly questionable on their own, all the information found from these sources were only included if they could be confirmed by two or more physical sources, as well as their true verification, by legitimate recording industry interactions as well as legal information acquisition services."

Sorry, not good enough. Fine for a resume perhaps but not an encyclopedia. SQGibbon (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

First attempt at rewrite
SQGibbon here, the lead paragraph needs sources for the personal stuff and the connection to Punk Rock Records but I think we can use it anyway and just put the facts tag there. The "Career highlights" and "References" obviously will need to be formatted as headings but we can do that if this goes up on the article. And wow, this is a whole lot shorter than the original article. After whatever changes you want to make we can put this on the Talk page for MM, give it a week to see if anyone comments, then move it on over. I'm going to try to find a friendly admin to get involved to make sure we're doing everything correctly. So, here it is: Page 348,Publisher:Sterling; illustrated edition edition (November 9, 2008)English,ISBN-10: 1402759606,ISBN-13: 978-1402759604

Marty Munsch (born August 1967) is an American music producer. Munsch was born in Union County, New Jersey, and raised in the towns of Franklin Lakes and Wyckoff in Bergen County, New Jersey. Munsch is the principal owner of Punk Rock Records.

Career highlights


 * Manager of American punk band US Chaos in early '80s.


 * Producer on the album Victory Singles Volume 3 for the songs “Down the Drain” and “Parasite” by L.E.S. Stitches.


 * Engineer on the T.S.O.L. song “You've Come Undone” for T.S.O.L. Live 2005 CBGB's Live WFMU.


 * Contributed to and/or appeared in the films All Grown Up and Punk's Not Dead.

References

SQGibbon (talk) 05:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll be taking a look soon, I just got busy with some work obligations. By no means have I forgotten.  Xblkx (talk) 08:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone added a citation for the first line on the MM article page so I copied it over here. SQGibbon (talk) 01:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * As I said a year ago - good luck with that!! :) I think he's incorrigible, but again there's no malice. As long as he sticks to his own couple of pages and doesn't insert himself in, say, The Clash, maybe one should just sit back and admire it as a grand construct of exactly what an article shouldn't be!! I mean who else is even reading that stuff except for his personal crew and some huffing and puffing deletionists? But I'll certainly follow and can be called upon for support if needed. Wwwhatsup (talk) 01:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * In fact his most notable achievement might be the consistent maintenance of this lengthy wikipedia article for so many years despite all other's efforts to curtail its excesses!!! Marty Munsch is a notable wikipedia vanity article editor, who has also ... etc etc. :P Wwwhatsup (talk) 01:45, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I came across the page during normal RCP duties or otherwise would never have known about it. I saw how bad the article was but was going to just let it go.  Then Xblkx asked me to help out and I realized that it was the right thing to do so here we are.  Anyway, I do have some questions for you, what's the next step?  I have an article ready to go, as you can see, but there hasn't been any contribution or comments from other editors (except Xblkx) and certainly not Marty or his pals (except deleting stuff on the talk page).  I don't know how long we should wait or if we should put the new version on the Marty Munsch talk page first or what?  I know it's going to cause a major commotion when it does happen (given how much shorter this version is) so I just want to make sure we've done everything in good faith on this side.  Any advice? Also, he did insert himself into the Joe Strummer article. SQGibbon (talk) 01:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I think the next step is get semi-protection - blocking anonymous edits - perhaps using WP:DDE. Talk page comments of established editors have been consistently removed by anon editors, making it impossible to reach consensus on changes. This will force him to come out of the bushes. Then the WP:COI, notability, and verifiability issues can be worked out without the constant disruption. If it does continue, he'll fall foul of admins. Wwwhatsup (talk) 20:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)


 * OK. He's here now. See diff. Adding references to things he probably wrote himself, as usual. In fact if you look at The Stun Gunz link right now you can see a "&lt;/ref&gt;" that he accidentally pasted in! I still suggest semi-protect. Wwwhatsup (talk) 20:57, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "&lt;/ref&gt;" wow. OK, so are you saying to try to get this page semi-protected, the MM talk page, the actual MM page or all of 'em?  Also he contacted me he here.  I responded on his Talk page here but haven't heard back. SQGibbon (talk) 21:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I recall there was an article here on The Stun Gunz but it was deleted on four separate occasions by four different editors. I think that we all agree that the statement that he is a music producer (of the more notable band U.S. Chaos) is true and verifiably sourced.  I'm not sure why this reference would be of any use to substantiate anything else that had been in the article, even if were not hosted on MM's personal site.  I also agree with Wwwhatsup that there probably are not very many watchers of this page.  We've had this up for discussion since Feb. 20.  I would make a motion to commit the edit as proposed by SQGibbon, semiprotect the article (in fact,an argument could be made that MM would agree with that, given that he has a login name and has implied when he contacted you inviting help and that the anonymous edits were unwelcome and related to "dealing with punk music").  Or if you want to wait another week, I won't disagree, but your analysis is neutral, fair, and accurate.  Later at such point if/when a non-anonymous user comes in to discuss it (or makes edits), we can continue the discussion, if warranted, where it left off without the constant disruptions of editing that MM denied doing despite my half-decent evidence to the contrary.  I certainly volunteer to keep an eye on it, and now that I know what to look for, understand the proper process (thank you SQGibbon), and am aware that MM's vanity- or advertising-related edits, while not malicious, are also not good faith, and worse yet, it dilutes the quality of this resource.  I've already made comments on other articles (and in many cases, contributors responded with a genuine interest in improving them) and I've done the same with articles I contribute to.  He can advertise or put his resume up nearly anywhere - on his own sites, on free music sites, etc.; it's just not appropriate here.  That's really why I asked for help, because an issue that has gone on for more than a year has gone on long enough.  I really don't expect any more constructive input here, unless an admin cares to comment on whether we went about this procedurally exact.  It's not like we're trying to set or change the rules.  They work, no one is exempt.  I say commit the edit.  What was replied to MM is truthful, to the point, and fair.  Following this, I would really like to address the same issues with Punk Rock Records, in particular that this content (if there is any -- it just looks like a resume to me) be consolidated into the MM article.  I'll go through it line by line with an analysis just like this one (just not this week....).  Xblkx (talk) 02:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

The beat goes on
I note that, after an unusually quiescent week, there was a flurry of activity on the MM page over the last two day. First an anon IP (Arizona Military) blanked the entire article, bringing down the wrath of cluebot, then a brand new user Pxc3580 took everything but the list of credits down to it's bare bones. diff Wwwhatsup (talk) 00:47, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Strange that the user left in all the discography stuff. Well, I guess this might be a sign to switch out the version I suggested then. SQGibbon (talk) 04:05, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm kind of interested to see what happens next, if we do nothing :) Maybe leave it for a day. Or do it and massively pare down the credit list - "Notable credits" ?? Wwwhatsup (talk) 05:06, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I added comments here.


 * Looks like someone reverted Pxc3580's edit. If there are no objections then I guess I'll copy over my rewritten version (above) on Tuesday Monday. SQGibbon (talk) 16:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yep. User:68.193.208.158 from Chester, NY - a single purpose anon editor. I say go ahead with ref to here. Then we'll see. Wwwhatsup (talk) 18:34, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, I went ahead and moved my version over. Don't want to see an edit war between Pxc3580 and 68.193.208.158 break out (since it's already looking pretty ugly). SQGibbon (talk) 21:34, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Now that my project ended and I had some time, I just came to commit SQGibbon's version to the page, and you already did it. Much better.  I guess we shall see what happens.  Happy 23rd to all.  Xblkx (talk) 22:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I see today that same AZ IP went round Wikipedia knocking out further Marty Munsch and US Chaos insertions in other articles, not entirely without justification IMO. See Contributions. (He missed this one - which actually appears a good faith edit, albeit based on dubious sourcing.) Also Pxc3580 wrote here calling for deletion of MM entirely, and then thought better of it. Wwwhatsup (talk) 01:03, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * One can see there is some conflict between the two positions. If Munsch is notable enough to merit a Wikipedia article, while his role in the careers of Joe Strummer etc are debatable and not that important, nevertheless he still does merit inclusion in List of people from New Jersey, Ramapo High School (New Jersey), & Summit, New Jersey. Wwwhatsup (talk) 01:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I took a few more vanity entries out myself: New Jersey hardcore, Played, MM, List of dub artists, and the particularly egregious Record producer.Wwwhatsup (talk) 01:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Very good, the entry on MM was bugging me but then so did a lot of entries on that page. Xblkx has mentioned that he wants to tackle Punk Rock Records and US Chaos also.  These don't seem as bad though once again are full of non-notable credits.


 * I saw Pxc3580's redacted edit. I wouldn't be surprised if the article did fail Wikipedia's standards.  Personally I think he's notable but then I take a fairly liberal view of things.  Anyway, I'm surprised he didn't go through with it. SQGibbon (talk) 03:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I actually already removed his entry from MM as he was listed under the Music section. I guess I missed the part where he inserted himself into ORGANIZATION as well!!!  Do you really think the insertion into "Producer" was egregious, you should have also seen how he inserted himself into "Audio Mastering" once again claiming to be the Phil Spector of punk.  None of these articles site Jim Dickenson, Butch Vig, SPOT, etc but they have Marty Munsch inserted... that makes a lot of sense.  I also removed him from about 6 different lists of "notable people" including the entire state of NJ, Wycoff, Ramapo, Ramapo High, Summit, NJ, etc.  Also he inserted his name into the production of a Sex Pistols single which I can't find references for on all music, discography.org, etc.  How did I find all these insane injections?  Simple, I just looked at the IP that edited the Marty Munsch page and followed every edit that was ever done.  99% of the edits were to inject either Mary Munsch or U.S. Chaos into an article.  Some of the U.S. Chaos stuff was pretty outrageous as well.  One highlight included injection U.S. Chaos into the "Operation Chaos" article.  WTF?  Also, my personal favorite was injecting U.S. Chaos into the City Gardens Article.  Did you know that bands that played city gardens included "Bands that have played there have included Nirvana, R.E.M., Soundgarden, Jane's Addiction, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, The Ramones, The Rollins Band, Sonic Youth, Nine Inch Nails, Green Day... AND U.S. CHAOS.  Of course U.S. Chaos is clearly as notables as Nirvana and the Red Hot Chili peppers.  I think the only notable thing this person ever did was manage U.S. Chaos who were from what I can tell a barely notable local band.  I do not think he should have a page, at best he should be mentioned in the U.S. Chaos article which really needs to be cleaned up as well.  I rely on this wiki to get a lot of information on punk and hardcore music which unfortunately was a poorly documented movement at best.  Allowing this person to inject himself all over the place destroys the credibility of the punk movement and Wikipedia and it should really be put to a stop.  Not every single person who ever played in/managed/released a record for a local punk band should have an entry, especially not if they created it themselves, and they certainly should not be injecting themselves into legit articles.  It makes me aggravated as someone who grew up in the 80's punk seen to see so many people who deserve a wiki page and a place in history and know they will be forgotten while this obviously troubled individual gets to run amuck and re-write history at will.  From what I can see there are at least 3 or 4 others who are in agreement and many other people have tried to blank his page in the past, etc.  Anyway this is my vote and I am done wasting time on this article, I am going to start looking around at other punk related articles and see if I can add to them in any way.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.172.8.13 (talk) 14:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Peace in the valley
Well. Let's see what happens now. If things are running according to form, after a little break some fresh editor will appear and start to steadily re-insert the previous material :) Wwwhatsup (talk) 07:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * As predicted, diff - new anon IP is User:173.70.153.3 out of Hazlet NJ. I've reversed and left a note on the user's talk. Wwwhatsup (talk) 05:26, 29 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Another shot, diff - just one album, but I've shot it down - demanding discussion. This time from old friend User:68.193.213.46. On the talk page I questioned whether any of the credits are that notable. Were any of these records notable? Wwwhatsup (talk) 00:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yesterday User:68.193.213.46 blanked the MM article - despite revert and warning from Cluebot, which he removed from his user talk. User:Allen3, who appears to be an unblanking specialist, restored the MM article. Wwwhatsup (talk) 05:32, 5 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah I saw that. Odd response from 68.  I guess if he can't have the article the way he wants it he doesn't want it there at all?  Anyway, so far the actions from 68 and others has been pretty mild.  Less contentious than other pages in my watchlist. SQGibbon (talk) 06:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I suspect after our scrutiny of this subject ends, the Wikipedia pollution will start up in full force again; ironic since MM said he couldn't be bothered to waste time on this. I can't even imagine there is anyone else who finds him notable enough to make such edits but who hasn't come in and participated in this discussion....  anyway, as soon as I get an opportunity, I'll start going through the Punk Rock Records article.  It probably should (at best) be a redirect to this article but we'll see after I analyze it.  Unfortunately an obligation came up and my availability has gone to zero and probably will remain so for another week.  Xblkx (talk) 17:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Rastaman say: "The race is not for the swift, but for he who can endure it." Wwwhatsup (talk) 19:18, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * He just inserted himself into OIL RIGS!!! WTF??? Please ban —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.105.85.163 (talk) 01:34, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

That would be this - Isee the IP also vandalized a couple more articles  and. I've left a warning on his talk. Wwwhatsup (talk) 06:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I wonder what all this "CHMODE:sys:ERROR:ROUTE/BLOCKED 404" is about? Culprits are old friend 173.70.153.3 and Slugmobile - a new alias? Wwwhatsup (talk) 23:39, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * and I see they've both been blocked - slugmobile indefinitely and 173.70.153.3 for 48 hours. Wwwhatsup (talk) 23:48, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * As the whole thing was going down I couldn't figure out what the "CHMODE" stuff was supposed to mean. Oh well, a mystery.  It was obvious that sluggy was the same as 173.70 so when that one was blocked I mentioned it to the blocking admin who indeffed slugmobile. SQGibbon (talk) 00:01, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

So we are back to 68.193.213.46. This edit diff is a redo of the original one that brought MM to my attention years ago diff, repeated at diff and diff. It would seem that his placing of db-author tag on MM would be an indication that it is MM himself - poor guy can't win - first he gets grief for writing his own article, then after other people rewrite it, he can't take it down on the grounds of being the author. Wwwhatsup (talk) 22:11, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


 * He left me a note here. I haven't responded yet.  There's seems to be a lot he doesn't understand but I'm not sure where to begin.  SQGibbon (talk) 23:06, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Notability
User:Hekerui has today left a notability tag on the Marty Munsch article. I think we had consensus that MM merited notability as a producer/mover in the NJ punk scene, but only just - and that the many individual minor credits individually did not merit inclusion.. It's dangerous ground because we could be back into the situation where all the many credits, now removed, could be justified in being re-added, just to establish notability of the body of work as a producer. Should we remove the tag and let sleeping dogs lie? Wwwhatsup (talk) 05:38, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Truthfully I'm not fully convinced that he is notable. I'm perfectly fine with the article being here as I believe there is a big enough gray area to include it but if the article were deleted I wouldn't make a fuss over it. So my feeling is to not add any of the stuff that was deleted before unless we find good sources (remember, none of those credits had anything to back them up) and at the same time I say we should leave the notability tag up for a while at least and see if anyone else in Wikipedia world wants to get involved or has an opinion.  Clearly the article needs help so whether that means adding to it or deleting it the overall situation will be improved. SQGibbon (talk) 06:14, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

He is not noteable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.238.145.115 (talk) 14:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Cease and Desist!
Ah. I haven't been keeping such a close eye, but I see that 68.193.213.46 (talk) has added notice of a C&D on the MM talk and on the main article. Promptly removed by an admin and the page semi-protected. Wwwhatsup (talk) 08:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparently the C&D was about the creepy image of MM that was in the article (that he might have uploaded anyway). Good riddance to that thing! SQGibbon (talk) 22:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Punk Rock Records article
I went ahead and rewrote the Punk Rock Records using the same approach used for the MM article but without all the work (heh). It's a stub but well-sourced (without making any effort to find any sources other than what was already there). Now we should discuss merging/deleting the articles. SQGibbon (talk) 23:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)