User talk:Xenophrenic/sandbox2

Hello, I JethroBT. Thank you for taking the time to review and close this RfC at the Bernie Sanders article. I am contacting you because I am considering filing a request for a formal review of the closure, but I would rather not launch such a time-consuming process. If you could please review and address the specific concerns I have outlined below, perhaps we can avoid the bureaucratic headaches and additional drama.

Full disclosure: I have edited the 'Religion=' field in the Sanders article exactly twice. The first time, believing much the same way as you, I edited the field so that it displayed: Religion = Jewish. Then after reading more closely what the reliable sources were saying, and paying particular attention to the subject's direct statements of self-identification, I realized my error. That is when I made my second edit to the 'Religion=' field, blanking it to bring it into compliance with Wikipedia policy and also with the subject's self-identification. Wikipedia policy, as detailed below, instructs us to leave that field blank and unused except in very specific and restricted instances. Nowhere in your closure explanation, or in your responses to subsequent questions about it on your Talk page, have you explained your reasoning for using the highly restricted 'Religion=' field. You do link to the WP:BLPCAT restriction in your closing statement, so I know you are aware of it, but you only acknowledge the first half of it (must self-identify in direct speech with the religious beliefs) while completely ignoring the second requirement (relevance to Sanders' notability). Instead, the closing statement dwelled on the lesser tangential arguments (and even an argument that was never advanced), rather than the core dispute.

I've noted a half-dozen problems with the RfC closure below, but "Problem 1" is reason enough to invalidate the closure all by itself, and might be the only issue I raise in the review to keep it succinct. If you still disagree with this concern, it would be great if you could explain your position to me more fully, before a formal review is requested. As evidenced above, I am always open to changing and even reversing my position if new information and reasoning is made available. I also have a second motivation for pushing to remove the policy violations and contradictions from this RfC closure; editors have noted that many other BLP articles use the 'Religion=' field in similar violation of policy without all this commotion. I intend to address that problem in those articles, and would like to be able to confidently reference this RfC closure, among others, in the inevitable discussions that follow. I look forward to working with you on this matter. Best regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 21:12, 19 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Pinging I JethroBT and Guy Macon. If one or both can convince me that a "Close Review" is not warranted in this situation, I would appreciate the input, in whatever venue is most convenient. Xenophrenic (talk) 03:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Although I have purposely chosen not the challenge the close (mainly because I am weary of being called anti-Semitic, threatened with having my reputation trashed in the press, etc.), I support it being challenged and will make a brief statement in favor of overturning the decision.


 * I would suggest the following wording changes:


 * OLD: "He is careful to insist he is spiritual, and says he believes in a higher power when pressed, because to do otherwise in the United States is political suicide"


 * PROPOSED NEW: "He is careful to insist he is spiritual, and says he believes in a higher power when pressed. In the United States. doing otherwise is generality considered to be political suicide."


 * Reason: I am trying to avoid assigning a motive, even though it is probable in this case.


 * OLD: "The word "Jewish" was added to the 'Religion=' field but not cited as required"


 * PROPOSED NEW: "The word "Jewish" was added to the 'Religion=' field but the religious meaning of "Jewish" is not cited in the body as required"


 * Reason: I don't know of a requirement that the citation has to be in the infobox itself. The infobox needs to summarize a key facts found in the body, and the claims made in the body need to be verifiable. Also, we need to make it clear that an "I am Jewish" source (of which there are several) does not support a "Religion: Jewish" claim because "Jewish" can also be a description of culture or ethnicity. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:12, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Issues with the RfC close
Undisputed, uncontroversial general facts:
 * FACT - The RfC asked: Should the infobox in this article include "Religion: Jewish"?  You closed it, stating: Consensus supported inclusion of "Jewish" in the religion parameter of article infobox.
 * FACT - Religious identification is considered by Wikipedia to be a sensitive and often contentious issue, and as such, Wikipedia has set additional specific requirements to be met before a living person's religious beliefs can be highlighted in Categories and Infoboxes.
 * FACT - The terms "Jewish" and "Judaism" have multiple meanings, are sometimes used interchangeably, and are frequently the source of confusion for both our readers and our sources (and now, RfC closers).
 * FACT - This is a controversial issue which has spawned many previous RfCs, noticeboard discussions, Talk page debates, and is already being revisited since the most recent RfC closure: "Placement in the Infobox is clearly inappropriate" — "Something needs to be done about this dispute ... And is this worth mentioning in an infobox?" — "Unsupported close; reverted" — "a person who also disagrees with this particular close". It would be a good idea to resolve any existing issues with this latest RfC, so that it can be referred to with confidence when the inevitable future disputes arise.
 * FACT - This is not about reliably sourced information in the body of the article, which is allowed. This RfC is about taking that reliably sourced information and then accurately summarizing it and further highlighting it in the Infobox because it is a defining characteristic of the person's public notability.

You highlighted the subject's religious beliefs, or lack thereof, in an infobox when they are not a relevant part of Sanders' public life or notability, according to reliable published sources. In fact, to the contrary, reliable sources overwhelmingly convey that religion is not a defining part of Sanders' public life or notability. Putting something (or anything) in the 'Religion=' field for Sanders goes against:
 * WP:BLPCAT: Categories and Infobox fields on religious beliefs (or lack of such) should not be used unless the subject's beliefs are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources.
 * WP:CATGRS: Avoid categorizing people by non-defining characteristics involving gender/ethnicity/sexuality/disability/religion.
 * WP:NONDEF: A defining characteristic is one that reliable, secondary sources commonly and consistently define, in prose (as opposed to a tabular or list form), the subject as having. If the characteristic would not be appropriate to mention in the lead portion of an article, it is probably not defining. Often, users can become confused between the standards of notability, verifiability, and "definingness". Notability is the test that is used to determine if a person should have their own article. This test, combined with the test of verifiability, is used to determine if particular information should be included in an article about a person. Definingness is the test that is used to determine if a category or infobox field should be created for a particular attribute of a person. In general, it is much easier to verifiably demonstrate that a particular characteristic is notable than to prove that it is a defining characteristic of the person. In cases where a particular attribute about a person is verifiable and notable but not defining, or where doubt exists, an alternative to the Infobox or Category is preferred.
 * WP:OCEGRS: People should only be categorized by ethnicity or religion if this has significant bearing on their career.


 * CSM Breakfast (16:30 mark) When asked specifically about his Jewish heritage, not religion, Sanders responded: "I'm proud to be Jewish ... not particularly religious."

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 * Detroit News The Vermont senator, the candidate who has come closer than any other Jew to being a Democratic or Republican presidential nominee, has mostly avoided discussing his Judaism. ...he described himself as “the son of a Polish immigrant,” not a Jewish one ... he spoke of the historic nature of “somebody with my background” seeking the presidency, but didn’t use the word “Jewish.” A recent headline in the liberal Jewish Daily Forward newspaper read, “We Need To Out Bernie Sanders as a Jew — For His Own Good.” Sanders, during more than three decades in public life as a mayor, congressman and U.S. senator, has developed few relationships with Jewish groups or leaders — on religious issues or on Israel.  “I would say that he has never been one of those in Congress who was active in a Jewish caucus, who turned out for Israel, who was involved in those issues — and he still isn’t,” said Jonathan Sarna, an expert in American Jewish history at Brandeis University ... when Sanders gave his most religiously focused campaign speech, he only seemed to underscore his distance from Judaism.  In the presidential race, he often sums up his religious views with the phrase, “We are in this together.”  “Being Jewish is very important to us,” his brother, Larry, said in an interview in England where he lives. “There was no problem of debate, it was just a given in our lives, just as being Americans was a given in our lives. But Bernard is not particularly religious. He doesn’t go to synagogue often. I think he probably goes to synagogue only for weddings and funerals, rather than to pray.”

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 * The Week - opinion To date, the Vermont senator has largely been able to skirt the issue of his faith. ... He also appeals to secular progressives weary of too much God-talk in presidential politics, a growing segment of the Democratic base. ... Even when Sanders has been asked about his faith, he doesn't invoke God or his own particular religious experiences. He offers no sentimental accounts of his Bar Mitzvah or a revelatory moment with a favorite rabbi. He wasn't even asked to explain what he was doing speaking at Liberty University, an evangelical college, on Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. ... Sanders is an archetype: the passionate, funny, lefty American Jew firmly rooted in Jewish ideals of justice but who doesn't talk much, or at all, about God or the Torah.

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 * People Magazine daughter Carina Driscoll remembers Sanders always being very private about his religion. "Bernie would observe his traditions in a way that we really didn't see very much of. ... Says Sanders: "Spirituality is something I think people should hold generally hold to themselves so it’s not something that I talk about a whole lot. But I’m proud to be Jewish and being Jewish is a very important part of my life."

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 * Washington Post Bernie Sanders: Our first non-religious president? ... while Sanders is culturally Jewish, he has said that he's "not particularly religious" and has been described by some as agnostic. Asked during an appearance on Jimmy Kimmel's show this week whether he believed in God, Sanders demurred. "I am who I am," Sanders said. "And what I believe in and what my spirituality is about, is that we're all in this together. That I think it is not a good thing to believe that as human beings we can turn our backs on the suffering of other people." Sanders added: "This is not Judasim. This is what Pope Francis is talking about -- that we cannot worship just billionaires and the making of more and more money. Life is more than that." In political terms, this is what's known as a dodge. It's an economic and cultural vision that Sanders attempts to shoehorn into a religious conversation by noting that religious people like Pope Francis feel the same way. It's basically saying, 'I'd rather talk about poor people than God.'

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 * The Atlantic Sanders talks so little about his faith ... it’s the lack of attention to Sanders’s Judaism that Jewish leaders find most exciting. “It’s the most wonderful anti-climax in American Jewish history,” said Rabbi Jonah Pesner ... Lieberman’s Judaism was a major part of his political identity. He was closely associated with Jewish causes and his staunch support of Israel, talked openly about his faith, and didn’t campaign on the Sabbath. The same is not true of Sanders. Sanders only discusses his Judaism if asked, “I’m proud to be Jewish,” Sanders said at a breakfast event in Washington. He added that he was “not particularly religious.” When Jimmy Kimmel asked Sanders in October if he believed in God, he didn’t answer directly. “I am who I am,” Sanders replied. ... He struck a similar note a month earlier during his speech at Liberty University in Virginia, the evangelical school founded by Jerry Falwell where he linked himself to the pontiff’s message of social justice but mentioned Judaism only in the context of “the great religions,” and not as his own. (He made his appearance at Liberty on Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year. Sanders’ wife Jane is not Jewish, and he is not known to be involved in the small Jewish community back home in Vermont. “He just doesn’t connect with organized Jewish religion,” said Rabbi James Glazier)

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 * Washington Post Growing up, Bernie Sanders followed the path of many young American Jews ... But as an adult, Sanders drifted away from Jewish customs. “I am not actively involved with organized religion,” Sanders said in a recent interview. ... Sanders’s religious views, which he has rarely discussed, set him apart from the norm in modern American politics, in which voters have come to expect candidates from both parties to hold traditional views about God and to speak about their faith journeys. ... For Sanders, rejecting the formal trappings of religion adds to the unconventional nature of a candidacy that has energized many liberals ... Sanders has appeared reluctant to delve into discussions about his faith, prompting many to assume on social media that he is more secular than God-fearing. When late-night TV host Jimmy Kimmel asked Sanders in October whether be believes in God and if that matters to the American people, the senator seemed to avoid a direct response ... People who have known Sanders over the four decades of his political ascent in Vermont — say Sanders’s central interest has always been politics, not religion. ... Larry Sanders sums up his brother’s views this way: “He is quite substantially not religious.”  Sanders sought to explain how his approach to political issues, from climate change to income inequality, is grounded in a moral understanding that transcends religious and political partisanship.

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 * Washington Post the faith of the Vermont senator seems largely absent from the public narrative. Sanders has over the decades not spoken often about his Judaism or what he believes or practices, according to profiles of him. ... It’s hard to tell yet what impact Sanders’s faith will have — if any — on his campaign for president, or what impact his apparent lack of affiliation will have. He doesn’t seem to identify with a particular branch of Judaism. Rabbi Jonah Pesner ... said the news is that Sanders’s faith isn’t news. “What’s significant here is that we have a viable candidate for presidency who is not only Jewish but has a Brooklyn accent, and it’s not a big deal,” ... he is not a particularly public candidate about his faith

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 * The New Yorker Sanders’s close friend Richard Sugarman, ... said, “He’s not what you would call rule-observant.” But, Sugarman added, “if you talk about his Jewish identity, it’s strong. It’s certainly more ethnic and cultural than religious—except for his devotion to the ethical part of public life in Judaism, the moral part. He does have a prophetic sensibility.”

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 * Religion News Service Bernie Sanders: Unabashedly irreligious. He’s Jewish — sort of. The presidential candidate, 74, was born to Jewish parents and identifies as culturally Jewish. Although by Jewish law he is Jewish, he has freely acknowledged that he is not a religious person. Sanders has strong appeal with millennials, about a third of whom say they have no religious identity. Conversely, he may have no appeal with evangelicals and other conservative Christians. He scored a solid zero from Ralph Reed’s Faith and Freedom Coalition ... Asked by Jimmy Kimmel whether he believed in God, Sanders glided past the question ... some Jewish critics are offended that he rebuffs his cultural and religious heritage

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 * US News and World Report Bernie's Religion Is the Revolution. Bernie Sanders' belief in Judaism and God may be in question, but his belief in the working class is undisputed. It's safe to say Bernie Sanders is not a practicing Jew. He's never claimed to give much thought to the religion of his youth. Or to spirituality. Or to God. The junior senator from Vermont has been vague on spiritual matters. ... the Torah didn't stick with young Bernie. Instead, Sanders recalled his father showing him an album of family members killed in the Holocaust. "Rather than religious training," he told an interviewer in the mid-1980s, "the fact that my parent's family had been destroyed by a government had an enormous impact on me." Once Sanders left Brooklyn for the University of Chicago, he shed any outward Judaism. When I asked Jane Sanders whether her husband is religious, she said: "We believe in Judeo-Christian teachings." That seemed rather vague. I pressed, but she declined to elaborate. I put the question to Professor Richard Sugarman, who serves as Bernie Sanders' unofficial spiritual adviser. Does Bernie Sanders believe in God? "I would call him an uncertain agnostic," Sugarman told me. He still teaches religion and philosophy. "He's not even sure he's an agnostic." Translation: Sanders is doubly uncertain that God exists. Does it matter that Bernie Sanders doesn't believe God matters? Bernie Sanders might not believe in God, but he does have a steadfast and long-standing belief in the rights of the working class. That's his religion.

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 * The Times of Israel “His affect is very Jewish, but I don’t hear a lot of people talking about it,” said Steven Edelman-Blank ... "It’s significant how little of an issue his Jewishness is." Dennis Goldford, a Drake University political scientist ... said there is little reason for Iowans to associate Sanders’ persona at the microphone with his Jewish identity. Unlike some other prominent Jewish politicians, Sanders does not wear his religion on his sleeve. “His Jewishness is relatively invisible to Iowans at large,” said Goldford, ... “In various venues it just doesn’t come up, and he doesn’t mention it.”

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 * Seven Days News Sanders Is Proud to Be Jewish, Yet Low-Key on Religion. The Republican candidates for president tend to talk about God. In smaller doses, so does Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton. Her chief rival for the Democratic nomination, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), rarely invokes God's name. The playbook that says that if you run for president, you pay public homage to a higher power? Sanders is not using it. Yes, he speaks with pride about his Jewish heritage and how it motivated him to enter politics. But he isn't saying much about his personal beliefs or traditions. Is he a member of a synagogue? Does he believe in God? Sanders' campaign declined to answer ... Their parents were Jewish, but not deeply religious, Larry Sanders said, describing their approach as "basically secular," ... The way Larry Sanders sees it, if his brother becomes the first Jewish president, the religious aspect would be a footnote, and not a terribly big milestone.

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 * New York Times Sanders Is Jewish, but he doesn’t like to talk about it. Mr. Sanders, those who know him say, exemplifies a distinct strain of Jewish identity, a secular offshoot ... focused less on observance than on economic justice and repairing a broken world. Indeed, he seems more comfortable speaking about Pope Francis, whose views on income inequality he admires, than about his own religious beliefs. Rabbi Paley, ...recalled once talking with Mr. Sanders about “non-Jewish Jews,” a term ... to describe those who express Jewish values through their “solidarity with the persecuted.” Mr. Sanders seemed to acknowledge that the term described him, Rabbi Paley said. The family did not observe much more than Passover seders with neighbors. “They were very pleased to be Jews, but didn’t have a strong belief in God,” Larry Sanders said. Unlike Mrs. Clinton, who states emphatically that she is a Methodist “person of faith,” Mr. Sanders responds to questions about his beliefs by turning the conversation toward political ideals. Sanders “does not have to wear his Judaism on his sleeve in Vermont or anywhere else to be a Jew.” But Rabbi Chasan said there was probably another reason Mr. Sanders avoided discussion of his religion. Like John F. Kennedy, who had to overcome anti-Catholic sentiment, “he’s a good politician and he knows what he’s up against,” he said. Still, Mr. Sanders’s Jewishness, even in its secular style, may not be much of an issue.

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 * Forward - Opinion what’s described as Sanders’ unwillingness to discuss his Jewish heritage. The New Republic had a lengthy essay that very morning, titled “Bernie’s complaint — the reluctant roots of his radicalism,” discussing Sanders’ presumed alienation from his Jewish heritage. The New York Times carried a news story the day before titled, “Bernie Sanders Is Jewish, but He Doesn’t Like to Talk About It.” The Times, in turn, referred to a JTA story that appeared February 12, headlined “People are confused why Bernie Sanders won’t own his Jewishness.” “We Need To Out Bernie Sanders as a Jew — for His Own Good.” The Tablet weighed in, “Judaism — On Background”

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 * Boston Globe Much has been made – in news outlets, including the Washington Post – of Sanders being the first Jew and first openly secular candidate to get so far. But as an unaffiliated person who talks about faith in spiritual terms and seems reticent about the explicit blend of religion and politics, Sanders is a very common American. Princeton University Professor Kevin Kruse, a historian who focuses on religion, said the “lack of discussion” so far about Sanders’s non-Christian, non-affiliated faith “is kind of amazing. This is certainly a milestone.” The unaffiliated – often called “the Nones” – are “almost to a characteristic a Sanders voter,” he said. Aside from Sanders being unaffiliated, Berlinerblau said the candidate “has to figure out now what type of Jew he wants to be.” The unaffiliated, cultural Jew who talks about spirituality “is on safe ground” in the primary season, he said, but what happens in a general election?

As reliable sources make abundantly clear, religious beliefs are not a relevant part of Sanders' public life; to the contrary, he keeps them private, and when forced to address them publicly, he speaks in generalities about faith and spirituality common to all major religions until he can steer the discussion back to political ideals. He is careful to insist he is spiritual, and says he believes in a higher power when pressed. In the United States. doing otherwise is generality considered to be political suicide.

Wikipedia demands that we use extraordinary care when handling sensitive issues such as describing a person's religious beliefs, and insists that we reflect the subject's self-identification over the characterizations of secondary sources. When a living person tells us in his own words that he is, "not actively involved with organized religion", and he is "not particularly religious", and he feels "Spirituality is something I think people should generally hold to themselves so it’s not something that I talk about a whole lot" - we, as Wikipedia editors, should respect that, rather than demand that he be publicly pigeonholed under an insufficient label which is then highlighted in our infobox as if his religious beliefs are a defining characteristic of his notability. I'm with Sanders and Wikipedia on this, and against the RfC close decision. When Sanders self-identifies in his public life, he doesn't mention religion as having a role in it; see his Official House of Reps Bio, or his Official Senate Bio, or his two autobiographical books he published -- religion plays no part. Why do you suppose Sanders doesn't trumpet his religious beliefs in his bios and books, while most of his colleagues do? The people who know him best confirm this. His daughter ("very private about his religion. Bernie would observe his traditions in a way that we really didn't see very much of"), his brother ("Bernard is not particularly religious. He doesn’t go to synagogue", "quite substantially not religious"), his wife ("I think, just like gender, I don't think [faith] matters, and I don't think it should matter in terms of determining who is the best person [in this campaign]", "neither of us are active in organized religion"), his long-time friend and advisor ("I would call him an uncertain agnostic"), his biographer ("Sanders is not a practicing Jew. He's never claimed to give much thought to the religion"). But at Wikipedia we know better, don't we; we're going to make him publicly, relevantly, religiously Jewish whether he likes it or not? We have policies which protect against that, when we abide by them.

Please help me to understand why the closure of this RfC shouldn't be challenged and overturned for this reason alone. You added a Wiki-linked Jewish instead of just the word "Jewish" without the hyperlink, as specified in the RfC wording. The Wikipedia hyperlink to that word is a major point of contention. (See the many instances where the link was added and removed in the list of edits 'hatted' below.) Please be aware that the Wikilinked Jewish is problematic because it redirects our readers to the Jews article and states, ''This article is about the Jewish people. For their religion, see Judaism.'' The field is for religions, not people. Was consensus for the un-wiki-linked word "Jewish", as asked, or for the linked word "Jewish"? Please make the decision clear in the close statement.

The word "Jewish" does not accurately summarize a simple key fact about Sanders' religious beliefs, as conveyed in the body of the article. In addition, the meaning of the word "Jewish" in this instance is not consistent with its use in other infoboxes. The word "Jewish" as a religious belief is not supported in the body of the article as an assertion of fact; there is only an attributed mention (attributed to a press kit of unknown origin), and zero reliable sources saying he self-identifies as religiously 'Jewish'. This goes against the following rules:
 * MOS:INFOBOX: The purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article.
 * WP:INFOBOXUSE: The meaning given to each infobox part should be the same across instances of that type of infobox.
 * H:IB: Infobox templates are like fact sheets, or sidebars, in magazine articles. They quickly summarize important points in an easy-to-read format. The information should still be present in the main text.

The 'Religion=' field is for organized religions specifically, or religious beliefs more generally, according to Wikipedia convention. It is not for cultural ethnicity or "a people", as the RfC close appears to have implemented. Having "Judaism" in the field in most instances, while inserting "Jewish" in other instances goes against the requirement for consistent use across infoboxes. And neither "Judaism" nor "Jewish" correctly summarizes the nuanced religious beliefs, or lack thereof, of the article subject as conveyed by the "Religion and heritage" section of the article. Inserting 'Jewish' in the 'Religion=' field for Sanders tells our readers that such religious beliefs are as relevant to Sanders' public notability as they are to Samuel Schafler, for example. That is misleading.

Sanders has not unambiguously self-identified through direct speech as being religiously Jewish, as required by policy. Your closing statement concludes, "However, in this case, there are multiple sources, both primary and reliable independent ones, that very clearly refer to Sanders' religion as Jewish. Sources that merely "refer to Sanders' religion" do not meet policy requirements.  Basic primary and secondary reliable sources are fine for factoids such as place of birth or what school is their alma mater, but for religious beliefs, we need self-identification in direct speech from the subject of the article.  The RfC close does not acknowledge these additional policy requirements.  Since you did not specify exactly which sources you claim support your close decision, we cannot verify the quotes wherein Sanders declares that he practices a "Jewish religion".  This goes against our policies:
 * WP:CAT/R: religious beliefs or lack of such beliefs of a living person should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief in question (see WP:BLPCAT), either through direct speech or through actions like serving in an official clerical position for the religion.
 * WP:CATGRS: Avoid categorizing people by non-defining characteristics involving gender/ethnicity/sexuality/disability/religion.
 * WP:NONDEF: A defining characteristic is one that reliable, secondary sources commonly and consistently define, in prose (as opposed to a tabular or list form), the subject as having. If the characteristic would not be appropriate to mention in the lead portion of an article, it is probably not defining.

I am aware that some editors point to a .PDF file Press Kit of unknown origin (or the Roll Call CQ copy of it) as a potential source. That is not a valid source for Wikipedia. That source does not contain a self-identification in direct speech as required (see WP:CAT/R), and furthermore, it only has the words "Religion: Jewish" in tabular form instead of a description of his religious identification in the required descriptive prose (see WP:NONDEF). The word "Jewish" was added to the 'Religion=' field but not cited anywhere in the article as required. It absolutely needs to be accompanied by a citation, since it has already been challenged many times. This goes against our core policies, and is a major violation:
 * WP:V: any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material.
 * WP:BLP: Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
 * WP:MINREF: Wikipedia's content policies require an inline citation to a reliable source.

You said in your closing statement, "Many individuals also pointed out that some arguments opposed to inclusion ... simply asserted that he isn't really Jewish without any substantiation. Such views were, of course, discounted." There appears to be a misunderstanding here. Please cite just one such argument, along with the name of the editor who posted it. Please point to just one stated view of that type that you "discounted". That you weighed imaginary arguments that were never advanced, while completely ignoring the strongest policy-based arguments, demonstrates to me a possible lack of understanding of the core issue. Were comments "for the closer" completely ignored, like those (one by editor Anythingyouwant comes to mind) which pre-emptively warned closers against being distracted by nonexistent, fake arguments?


 * 19:15, 14 March 2016 - Tagged as needing a citation
 * 13:17, 13 March 2016 - Jewish added
 * 18:07, 12 March 2016 - Field blanked, RfC close unsupported
 * 09:51, 7 March 2016 - Jewish added (by RfC closer)
 * 18:58, 5 March 2016 - Field blanked
 * 17:17, 5 March 2016 - Jewish added
 * 18:28, 29 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 16:46, 29 February 2016 - Added Press Kit citation
 * 16:44, 29 February 2016 - Jewish added with HuffPo citation
 * 16:42, 29 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 16:23, 29 February 2016 - Jewish added with HuffPo citation
 * 08:14, 27 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 08:00, 27 February 2016 - Jewish added with HuffPo citation
 * 07:42, 27 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 07:04, 27 February 2016 - Jewish added with HuffPo citation
 * 07:00, 27 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 06:20, 27 February 2016 - Jewish added with Press Kit citation
 * 06:01, 27 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 02:25, 27 February 2016 - Jewish added with Press Kit citation
 * 04:54, 26 February 2016 - Added a custom field: Ethnicity = Jewish secularism Jewish
 * 20:39, 24 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 06:59, 22 February 2016 - Judaism replaced with Jewish
 * 03:25, 19 February 2016 - Judaism added with Press Kit citation
 * 02:58, 19 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 20:22, 18 February 2016 - Comment markup removed, now displaying Judaism with Press Kit citation
 * 20:19, 18 February 2016 - Commented out the field
 * 20:07, 18 February 2016 - Comment markup removed, now displaying Judaism with Press Kit citation
 * 18:51, 18 February 2016 - Commented out the field
 * 17:50, 18 February 2016 - Comment markup removed, now displaying Judaism with Press Kit citation
 * 15:15, 18 February 2016 - Commented out the field
 * 14:29, 18 February 2016 - Judaism added with Press Kit citation
 * 14:15, 18 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 07:43, 18 February 2016 - Judaism added with Press Kit citation
 * 07:35, 18 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 06:37, 18 February 2016 - Removed "dubious - discuss" tag from field
 * 05:56, 18 February 2016 - Added Press Kit citation to existing Judaism
 * 03:07, 18 February 2016 - Tagged as Dubious
 * 22:50, 17 February 2016 - Judaism added
 * 14:09, 9 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 02:02, 4 February 2016‎ - (inactive) and WaPo citation added to field, but whole field commented out
 * 01:38, 4 February 2016 - removed (inactive) and comment markup leaving just Jewish with Press Kit citation
 * 01:36, 4 February 2016 - (inactive) and WaPo citation added to field, but whole field commented out
 * 01:30, 4 February 2016 - removed (inactive) and comment markup leaving just Jewish with Press Kit citation
 * 07:42, 2 February 2016 - (inactive) and WaPo citation added to field, but whole field commented out
 * 02:24, 2 February 2016 - removed (Inactive) with citation to WaPo
 * 23:48, 1 February 2016 - Adds "(inactive)" with citations to Press Kit and WaPo
 * 23:23, 1 February 2016 - Jewish added
 * 23:10, 1 February 2016 - Field blanked
 * 22:41, 1 February 2016 - Jewish added (no wikilinks or cites)
 * 22:42, 31 January 2016 - Field blanked
 * 22:37, 31 January 2016 - Jewish added with citation to Press Kit
 * 22:21, 31 January 2016 - Field blanked
 * 21:43, 31 January 2016 - Jewish added with citation to Press Kit
 * 09:34, 28 January 2016 - Field blanked
 * 09:08, 28 January 2016 - Jewish added with citation to Press Kit
 * 07:56, 28 January 2016 - Field blanked
 * 15:40, 3 November 2015 - Jewish added with citation to Press Kit
 * 06:43, 3 November 2015 - Field blanked
 * 22:16, 2 November 2015 - Universalist and cite added
 * 21:41, 2 November 2015 - Universalist and cite removed, Jewish left in
 * 11:08, 29 October 2015 - Universalist added to Jewish, plus citation
 * 14:44, 21 October 2015 - Judaism changed to Jewish
 * 16:10, 20 October 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism
 * 12:23, 20 October 2015 - Left as Jewish, but added hidden message
 * 11:39, 20 October 2015 - Jewish added with citation to Press Kit and CNN
 * 11:19, 20 October 2015 - Removed Nonreligious Judaism
 * 17:45, 19 October 2015 - Judaism changed to Secular Judaism (nonreligious)
 * 11:29, 19 October 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism
 * 10:05, 19 October 2015 - Jewish added with two citations
 * 18:20, 18 October 2015 - Religion field blanked per RfC
 * 10:48, 16 October 2015 - Judaism changed to Jewish
 * 10:22, 16 October 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism
 * 14:42, 15 October 2015 - Judaism changed to Jewish
 * 06:15, 8 October 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism
 * 06:06, 8 October 2015 - Judaism changed to Jewish
 * 17:52, 6 October 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism
 * 17:23, 5 October 2015 - Judaism changed to Jewish
 * 16:32, 5 October 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism
 * 13:04, 5 October 2015 - Judaism changed to Jewish
 * 21:26, 4 October 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism
 * 20:57, 14 September 2015 - Cite to CSM re-added
 * 19:31, 14 September 2015 - Citation to CSM deleted, citation to Press Kit remains
 * 19:23, 14 September 2015 - Judaism changed to Jewish
 * 08:29, 14 September 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism
 * 02:24, 11 September 2015 - Judaism changed to Jewish
 * 02:00, 11 September 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism
 * 11:55, 10 September 2015 - Jewish added with citation to Press Kit and CSM
 * 07:59, 10 September 2015 - Religion field blanked (and hidden comment added)
 * 03:42, 10 September 2015 - Cite to CSM added, CN tag removed
 * 06:20, 2 September 2015 - Citation-Needed tag added
 * 01:51, 1 September 2015 - Citation-Needed tag removed
 * 08:26, 31 August 2015 - Citation-Needed tag added to Judaism
 * 21:42, 23 August 2015 - Judaism added to field
 * 20:47, 23 August 2015 - Field blanked
 * 19:54, 23 August 2015 - Judaism remains, but both citations stripped out
 * 02:58, 22 August 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism
 * 02:28, 22 August 2015 - Judaism changed to Jewish
 * 20:43, 20 August 2015 - Juadism changed to Judaism
 * 20:41, 20 August 2015 - Jewish changed to Juadism (sic)
 * 04:49, 16 August 2015 - Jewish added
 * 04:31, 16 August 2015 - Field blanked
 * 04:17, 16 August 2015 - Jewish added with 2 citations
 * 03:32, 16 August 2015 - Field blanked
 * 02:55, 16 August 2015 - Jewish added
 * 22:21, 15 August 2015 - Field blanked
 * 01:44, 15 August 2015 - Judiasm changed to Judaism
 * 01:39, 15 August 2015 - Jewish changed to Judiasm
 * 01:37, 15 August 2015 - Judaism changed to Jewish
 * 21:16, 10 August 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism
 * 05:19, 10 August 2015 - Jewish added to blank field
 * 16:01, 9 August 2015 - Field blanked
 * 10:26, 18 July 2015 - Judaism changed to Jewish
 * 08:03, 16 July 2015 - Jewish changed to Judaism

Changed Hindu to Jewish  03:04, 14 July 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=671346324&oldid=671345479

Changed Jewish to Hindu   02:54, 14 July 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=671345479&oldid=671343527

Jewish wikilinked  20:11, 29 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=669233183&oldid=669224963

Jewish de-wikilinked 18:27, 29 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=669220121&oldid=669218222

Judaism changed to Jewish   01:50, 28 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=668982535&oldid=668977089

Jewish changed to Judaism 00:48, 28 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=668977089&oldid=668973351

Judaism changed to Jewish 00:06, 28 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=668973351&oldid=668960902

Jewish changed to Judaism  22:06, 27 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=668960902&oldid=668960736

Judaism changed to Jewish  00:24, 16 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=667123305&oldid=667109016

Jewish changed to Judaism 21:26, 15 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=667105443&oldid=667102372

Jewish identity changed back to Jewish  01:41, 14 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=666839224&oldid=666838955

Jewish linked instead to Jewish identity, and CSM Breakfast cite added https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=666836158&oldid=666835461

changed Judaism to Jewish 00:56, 14 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=next&oldid=666832280

None and "by birth" removed, leaving just Judaism 16:57, 7 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665912402&oldid=665906349

added "by birth" to Judaism 16:13, 7 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=next&oldid=665906218

Added None before Judaism  16:09, 7 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665905826&oldid=prev

Judaism and press kit cite added 20:24, 6 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665801415&oldid=665801296

Religion field blanked 20:23, 6 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665801296&oldid=665800843

added (Judaism by birth) to none  20:19, 6 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=next&oldid=665800783

Religion = none  20:18, 6 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665800783&oldid=665800374

Religion field blanked  20:15, 6 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665800374&oldid=665695239

removed "by birth" and added cite to press kit 01:01, 6 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665694801&oldid=665673834

"by birth" added to Judaism 21:26, 5 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665673834&oldid=665672692

Reduced to just Judaism 21:20, 5 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665672692&oldid=665568365

Remains Judaism by birth, non-religious but citation removed 04:06, 5 June 2015‎ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665568365&oldid=665568188

Changed back to Judaism by birth, non-religious 00:50, 5 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665548536&oldid=665535198

Changed to Secular Jew linked to Jewish Secularism  22:42, 4 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665535198&oldid=665529702

Judaism by birth, non-religions (with cites to 2 articles)  21:48, 4 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665529702&oldid=665527999

Adds Judaism to field   21:32, 4 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665527918&oldid=665516879

Field blanked  18:06, 4 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665502133&oldid=665501810

Judaism added to field  18:01, 4 June 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=665501557&oldid=665501424

Field blanked   20:16, 23 May 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=663711324&oldid=663711197

Jewish secularism and link to religionnews added to field  20:14, 23 May 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=663711011&oldid=663710881

Judaism removed from infobox   20:06, 7 May 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=661299772&oldid=661299751

Inserts Judaism, but in wrong field  20:06, 7 May 2015‎ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=prev&oldid=661299751

Blanked the field  13:09, 5 May 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=660942486&oldid=660942119

Wikilinked Judaism  00:45, 2 May 2015 (edit) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=660343197&oldid=660343131

Added Judaism without cite or wikilink  00:45, 2 May 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=660343131&oldid=660342975

Blanked the field 00:43, 2 May 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=660342975&oldid=660342835

added (non-practicing) and a WaPo cite 00:42, 2 May 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=660342835&oldid=660341119

Removed citation supporting Judaism in field 02:03, 2 February 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=prev&oldid=645244799

Judaism added to field with cite to Pew Forum CQ Roll Call 22:03, 31 December 2012‎ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=530671034&oldid=530667223

Judaism removed and field blanked  21:30, 31 December 2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=530667223&oldid=530140441

Wikilinks Judaism 16:20, 4 August 2011  16:20, 4 August 2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=443035771&oldid=443035605

Satanism, Rastafarian changed to Judaism  15:03, 3 August 2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=442854768&oldid=442851545

Judaism changed to Satanism, Rastafarian 14:41, 3 August 2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=442851545&oldid=442510427

Judaism de-wikilinked to Judaism 09:43, 13 July 2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=439235945&oldid=438849820

Inserted Religion=Judaism   05:30, 1 October 2009 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=317230062&oldid=317228921

Removed Judaism from infobox  03:23, 29 September 2009 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=316817875&oldid=313741943

Changed Jewish in infobox to Judaism  01:08, 8 January 2009 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=262655765&oldid=262503240

Religion changed from linked to Judaism to linked to Jewish 23:36, 6 July 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=142998530&oldid=142075767

Atheist removed from infobox; Jewish remains 20:18, 18 April 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=123898136&oldid=123770879

Added Atheist to already edisting Jewish in infobox 09:39, 18 April 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=123770773&oldid=123624835

WikiLink Jewish to Judaism 05:01, 12 April 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=122148298&oldid=122148204

Jewish added to infobox with Votesmark ref  05:00, 12 April 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=122148204&oldid=121214345

Judaism removed  22:11, 16 January 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=101189909&oldid=100600744

Judaism returned 05:19, 14 January 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=100600744&oldid=100597780

Judaism removed   04:59, 14 January 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=100597780&oldid=100583810

Judaism restored  05:25, 13 January 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=100387043&oldid=100364496

Judaism removed 02:52, 13 January 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=100364496&oldid=100070254

Relaced Undeclared with Judaism 20:47, 11 January 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=100065661&oldid=99898888

Jewish replaced with Undeclared Ethnic Jew 05:30, 8 January 2007‎ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=99263840&oldid=98912863

Jewish re-added 02:39, 11 November 2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=prev&oldid=87069316

Just Jewish removed 02:33, 11 November 2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=87068445&oldid=87066293

Infobox & Jewish returned  02:19, 11 November 2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=87066293&oldid=87065124

Whole infobox (Jewish included) removed https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=87065092&oldid=87064934

Infobox returned  02:05, 11 November 2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=87064261&oldid=87063578

Whole infobox removed because it contained misleading info 02:00, 11 November 2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=87063478&oldid=87059541

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernie_Sanders&diff=next&oldid=86796853 first intro of Jewish 22:27, 9 November 2006


 * 9 November 2003 through 9 November 2006 - 36 months of no 'Religion =' field


 * OBSERVATIONS
 * → On the matter of the Press Kit .PDF file (and the Roll Call -CQ profile copied from it) ←

I've seen Wikipedians point to this .PDF file of unknown origin as if it were the answer to all sourcing requirements for information regarding the religious beliefs of Bernie Sanders. Like a solitary life-raft in a tumultuous sea of contradictory sources claiming otherwise, editors have clung to this source. Since the .PDF file can be accessed through a link to Sanders' Senate biography page, it is arguably reliable enough for uncontroversial facts like occupation and date of birth. It does not, however, meet Wikipedia's additional requirements as a source for information on religious beliefs:
 * it is not public self-identification in direct speech, as required
 * the source presents the information in tabular form, instead of in prose as required
 * the source does not say this religious belief is a defining characteristic of Sanders' public notability as required
 * this source is contradicted by actual public, direct-speech self-identifications that Sanders is not a member of any organized religion and isn't particularly religious
 * the source is of unknown origin, and was more likely to have been produced by a well-meaning campaign staffer than by Sanders
 * this same .PDF file has other errors in it, reducing the expectation of reliability
 * every word in the .PDF file is also in Sanders' Official Senate Bio, except for, suspiciously, the mention of religion


 * → Motivations for editing the religion field ←

The following motivations for adding a religion field to the Sanders biography, against Wikipedia policy, have been expressed by one or more Wikipedia editors. The reasoning ranges from merely poor through very offensive. I predict many of these editors will be less motivated after the election season passes.
 * Some editors who proudly share an ethnic identity with Sanders wish to shoehorn the word "Jewish" into the article wherever possible, even where inappropriate. Some passionate editors even suggest resistance to such efforts is anti-Semitism.
 * Some detractors of Sanders (including anti-Semites) see a stigma associated with Jewish identity, and wish to shoehorn the word "Jewish" into the article wherever possible, even where inappropriate. See this edit summary.
 * Some political supporters of Sanders add a religion parameter and religious references to deflect criticisms that he may be non-religious and therefore unelectable in the United States.
 * Some political detractors of Sanders add a religion "Jewish" to indicate that he is not "Christian", and therefore spur criticism that he is likely unelectable in the United States. (See this comment.)


 * → Straw man, imaginary and irrelevant logical fallacy arguments introduced at the RfC ←


 * Quit saying he's not Jewish! (No one argued that he wasn't. The discussion was about religion.)
 * Show me a source which says he is not Jewish! (No need; no one ever suggested that be entered in the article.)
 * You are trying to hide or minimize his Jewish affiliation! (No one did that. All of that information is perfectly allowable in the body of the article.  No one proposed to hide or delete it.)
 * You are trying to say he's not "Jewish enough" or "religious enough to be Jewish"! (No one did that. We must, however, determine if reliable sources say that a person is notable because of their religion. We're required to, in fact, before we can highlight that information in the neon-lighted billboard known as an Infobox.)


 * → Interesting and astute assessments on the religion issue ←

Two Jewish commentators discuss Sanders - David Pakman show A Secular Clinton supporter discusses Sanders' lack of religion


 * → More questions for the RfC closer ←

Does "supported inclusion of 'Jewish' in the religion parameter" mean all other additions to that same field are to be excluded? Such as (secular), (non-religious), (inactive), (Universalist), (Revolution), all of which have been added or suggested in the past?