User talk:Xompanthy/Archive 3

Thanks!
Rather belated, but... Thanks for the barnstar! I only just realized that I hadn't posted earlier. The internet died just after I noticed it, then when it finally came back, it didn't even dawn on me that I hadn't said something before. Better late than never?

Hope all the chaos of real life is going well! -Bbik 22:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: Pomozi
It seems like you have it under control yourself. ;)

I am well introduced in Medule's history of highly and extremely controversial edit warring. Did you ever think of Request for Comment?

By the way, I have to notify you that Wikipedia's policy permits only writing in English. If you write in Croatian (or any other language for that matter), you'll have to supply a translation below that.

Cheers! --PaxEquilibrium 18:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust which is a collection of information on the entire Holocaust?

Quote: ''Ustasa terrorists killed 500,000 Serbs, expelled 250,000 and forced 250,000 to convert to Catholicism. They murdered thousands of Jews and Gypsies''

Then again, considering that this is to my opinion probably an overestimate "hundreds of thousands" is ambiguous, meaning that the Ustashas could've killed 100,000 Serbs (like Franjo Tudjman said) up to 600,000-700,000 (the most frequently repeated figure). --PaxEquilibrium 22:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

...or the Yad Vashem Center, designated by the Allies to determine the Holocaust victims? It says that 600,000 people were killed, most of whom were Serbs. --PaxEquilibrium 22:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I am speechless. That many? 500 000? HOW? That sounds insane. It can't be that much... we're there even that many Serbs in Croatia then? I... hm... I find myself... troubled... I take it all back. Leave it in. Proof is proof. I need to go and think about what I've been told all these years, and the people who told it...


 * You have my apologies... but Medule doesn't. You're nice, and you cited all your arguments with facts. For that, I thank you. Isn't WP:CIVIL lovely? I love that rule... -- xompanthy 22:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * There were around 2,100,000 Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia when it was formed.
 * Well I said the figures were and are highly controversial; that's why leaving it ambiguous "hundreds of thousands" seems a right thing to do. --PaxEquilibrium 22:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

We had an old rule (endorsed by me) that the History section of the article should have only 15 sentences maximum on Croatia's history and that no individual persons should be mentioned.

One of the reasons was to evade the controversies like this.

I'd like to re-instate that rule. There are separate articles for Medieval Croatia, for the Homeland War, the Holocaust, Jasenovac, Yugoslavia, etc... we don't need one more battlefield. --PaxEquilibrium 22:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

There. You can contribute now. ;)

Consider that I only pressed the "restart" button.

You should hear how Somali and Ethiopean Wikipedians talk to each other... or American and Iraqi. It's just because of the war. In 30 years no one will even remember anything (and the 50 years Yugoslav curse kicks in again).

P.S. See the following article: Optimism. --PaxEquilibrium 22:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I told you that the figures are highly controversial. For example, two modern Yugoslavian experts have studied a lot on the issue: Bosnian Serb Bogoljub Kočović and Croatian famous analyst Vladimir Žerjavić both have gotten estimates that have entered the Jewish Virtual Library, and their estimate matches the one found at the United States Holocaust Museum - and that is 330,000-390,000 Serbs killed in extermination camps. I'd not say that there's much denial there. If I recall *official Croatia* recognizes that NDH sent to death ca 400,000 Serbs. I won't tell you my personal opinion - because I haven't got one. The whole issue is too much complicated... and besides, see Wikipedia's policy WP:NOR, and you'll get me. Cheers! --PaxEquilibrium 14:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Carefully
Hi, Xomphanthy. Choose your (wiki)-friends carefully. Many of users on wikipedia are "sweet talkers", but play very perfidiously. Be aware of them. Čuvaj se slatkoričivac na Wikipediji. Open your eyes. Those sweettalkers "keep hidden". They hide their true intentions, but in the background they play very dirty game. They really do. It reaches over the edges of your imaginaton.''Slatkoričivci igradu podlo. S tebon govoridu jedno, a u pozadini vodidu skroz drugu, vrlo šporku igru.'' Go on Croatian wiki, there you'll get any info you need. You just have to ask. There you can freely speak in Croat language (in fact, you must speak there in Croat language, wiki-policy). BTW, you don't have to confess anybody your private info, and that includes the data that your father is Serb (as you've said on one talk page). Keep your privacy. And, the last, but not the least... Don't squander with your vote right. This is serious stuff. Sincerely, Kubura 00:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Uhm... all I can say is... what the hell? What are you talking about? What are you trying to say? Be more specific if you can, 'cause right now, you're freaking me out... -- xompanthy 10:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Xompanthy. You'll have to recognize them, I won't tell any names here. So I won't be specific. If you're prone to believe to anyone who has a bunch of edits, go on, every troll has that much edits. But is that the solution? Than, in the section below, you're mentioning my name. And then you say "...the guy seems like he's one of those "they're out to get me" people...". Have you seen what kind of accusation I've got written by a certain user? Such stalinistic rhetoric in the 21. century! Point is, many users channelize, filter or even distort historical info about Croatia on en.wiki. Some do it openly, some do it very perfidiously. If you got them on their way, some of them don't choose means. Any means. They even dare to go to admins and to shamelessly wright heavy accusations against you, without any "sorry" later. And I'm against to giving powers to such persons. If you support persons that spread greaterserbian propaganda, than, our discussion will end wright here. Kubura 15:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * OK... first of all, I will NEVER support anyone spreading "Greater Serbian" propaganda. Never. There is nothing I hate more than nationalists, both theirs and ours. So I will never support anything even remotely connected to NDH beliefs, too. What you say about PaxEquilibrium (and yes, you are quite definitely talking about him) may or may not be true. I doubt that it is. From my perspective, he's been only fair and honest. And I've seen him around on Wikipedia before, and he's always shown himself to be a decent person and a good editor. That's all from my experience. I could be wrong, of course. But I highly doubt I am. I have never seen him utter anything even resembling "Greater Serbian" propaganda. NEVER. If I did, believe me, I would have a completely different opinion about him.


 * Now you show up and start saying he's no good. You use double-speak, cloak & dagger references to "them", and how "they" are up to no good. You give no proof whatsoever to support your claims. Now tell me, would any rational person believe you? Don't get me wrong, you could even be right, but until I see some proof (diffs and the like) to the contrary, I stand firmly by my belief that Pax is a good editor.


 * I must say one more thing. Badmouthing someone like you are doing right now, and not even having the decency to say their name directly, is both dishonest and cowardly. If you believe he's a nationalist, a bad editor, or just plain "evil", come out and say it directly, and support your claims with proof. Don't just go around spreading FUD. Stand by your accusations. Otherwise anyone with half a brain will want to stay away from you, thinking you're just paranoid. -- xompanthy 17:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've been reading your talk archives and I can't believe it how you two can go at it on and on and on... Don't you get BORED? I mean really... why continue? He makes good points, and you make good points. In a majority of your discussions, you are both right. Though for the life of me I can not understand why do you continue to trash out that discussion forever... and frankly, looking at the page... you two seem like friends. At least, you could be, if you both accepted the other's difference of opinion. And start respecting each other more. Both of you are not nationalistic, but patriots fighting about something both of you should be able to just say "OK! I believe in what I believe, you believe in what you believe. We agree to disagree. Let's move on...". He's not a "Greater Serbian" supporter. Seriously, you can't say that; that's just no true, and I know you know this. And you're not an NDH supporter from what I can see. I must admit, I was thinking you were. But reading your discussion...


 * Why can't you two just get along? Seriously now. You must have some respect for him, and I know he has some for you. Come on. Bury the hatchet. You disagree, and you both make good points. Have some mutual respect people, for crying out loud... Još samo fali da izvadite oružja i poubijate se, jel tako? Baš vam to treba. Pa u KURAC, završite tu prokletu diskusiju već jednom i nastavite dalje svojim putevima! Jebo vas ja, i onda se ljudi pitaju zašto se mi međusobno svi i dalje ne možemo smisliti... obojica ste panjevi... -- xompanthy 18:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

OK. First, it's not the matter of FUD, but the matter of nice behaviour. In fact, wiki-policy disagrees with naming people. That's why I avoid naming. Second, you've asked me for some proofs about Pax's (you've mentioned him, I didn't) behaviour. OK... Oh, in the meantime you've sent me the message. Look what has he done. I had no idea what was going on. I've discovered that almost two months later. Sasvim slučajno sam naletia na ovu njegovu podvalu. Look at those heavy accusations. Without "sorry" later. Stalinistic. Udba-style. Here's my answer to the admin who worked on the case (at least I thought so). You'll get some explanations there. About the discussion... He's insisting on the discussion, not me. In fact, that's what he mentioned in his shamelessly written charge. Kubura 18:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You convinced me. You're BOTH idiots. Learn to move on. He screwed up. He should have apologized, that I do agree with. But frankly... you are both too petty and stubborn to accept each other's differences. Work it out. Stop fighting. WHAT'S THE POINT? Honestly, tell me. Why do you still argue? WHY?


 * You should go to his talk page and say "I'm sorry for acting like an idiot". Then he should go to yours and do the same. If you really want to show neutrality, reason and some God damn sense, be the first one to apologize so we can all move on. Is that hard? Start behaving like adults, and stop behaving like kindergarten children. -- xompanthy 19:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

When you've written "..., the guy seems like he's one of those "they're out to get me" people..."... maybe you get me now? About more links... here. Someone was four times nominated for adminship (under the name of HolyRomanEmperor; he claims to be him... there's a whole comical story about his "death" and "renaming"). You'll find lot of arguments there (and there's a lot more). Here they are:, , , , ... And then he "dissappeared"... exactly when I've argumented him all the sources that confirmed organized evacuations of rebelled Serbs from Croatia. I'm not happy to have any person as admin. Especially the one that shamelessly falsely accused me in front of admins. However, that's why I'm telling you - don't run. Ne daj se zavest. Ne žuri s pridlaganjen admina. Uvik dobro proviri koga pridlažeš i kome daješ glas. About going along with that person... no chance. He's persistently pushing his story, with channelized, filtered and/or distorted data. In his contributions, he's contributing that way to perfidiously minimalize or even deny the Croathood of some parts of Croatia, like Dalmatia, History of Dalmatia, Lika (if I remember well) or articles linked with Croatia (also the article that Medule vandalized, if I remember well). He tries to present the completely different picture of Croatia-linked topics on en.wiki in a sneaking ways. Oh, don't forget the famous article Serb lands.... And whenever he plans to organized his candidacy for adminship, he begans to "play nice". At the end, don't use our domestic... pošćapalicu... the copulative one. It degrades you. Man begins to think... who you really are. You know, the reader doesn't see your face nor hears your intonation; he has to estimate your intentions. Kubura 19:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Please, don't use capitals. It gives the picture of shouting. Don't use expressions "j* vas ja". Why should I apologize? Maybe I accused him? Maybe I distort the history of Croatia? And again. I'm not the one who's "pushing the discussion". Somebody else is. If that means something to you, some other users also have complained about someones behaviour. Kubura 19:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Continuation...

 * The K word is an expletive that slipped out because you two frustrated me (and continue to do so) to no end. Now, to continue... will you get over that whole sockpuppet thing? Yes, he was wrong. Yes, he admitted his mistake. I read his rationalization in the checkuser request. To be honest, it makes sense. Made me wonder, really. But in the end, it was just an unlucky stream of coincidences. These things happen. And you have to understand, Afrika Paprika pissed him off immensely. I know, I read those talk logs too. And Afrika just keeps coming back. He just wanted to finally get rid of someone very annoying, and he thought that at last, he could get to the bottom of that. He was wrong. And now he apologized. What more do you want man? Come on, be reasonable now. We're all human. We make mistakes. And it's both stupid and childish to hold a grudge against someone forever.


 * Move on. Forgive him. He's sorry, I hope you can see that. And you have my personal apologies for thinking you were a paranoid nationalist. You're just an angry man with a long grudge and a bad way with words (stemming from your honestly, bad English).


 * In the end, I like you. I like him too. Can you move on, like he's trying to? Show us you're the big man I think you are. -- xompanthy 19:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know about capitals meaning shouting. That's exactly why I used them. And you should apologize for acting like an ass, the same thing he has done. Don't try to tell me otherwise, I've seen all the logs. He's an ass, you're an ass. You both behaved like little children. It's time to stop this. -- xompanthy 19:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

''Poučak o brokvi i dasci. Brokvu koju si zabia moreš izvadit, ali rupa ostaje.'' Theorem about the nail and the plank. You can remove the nail, but the hole remains. Second. Poučak o vuku i ćudi. The teorem about the wolf's hair and character. That's why I don't trust him. Despite all, I find my English excellent. But to describe some feelings, English can't match Croat language. You may write a whole page in English and that still won't describe it as good as only one sentence in Croat language. Third,you seriously don't get it. He wrote lies about history of my country, I didn't write such things about his country. Priko nikih stvari se ne more prić. Regarding him, daleko mu kuća. Away from me. At the end, watch your language. Kubura 20:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Adminship
As much as I'm flattered by your nomination; I'm going to have to refuse.

Since you won't take *no* for an answer (I don't want to offend you, lol ;), I'm not gonna say it - but I really feel that I'm not yet competent to become an administrator right now.

Cheers. --PaxEquilibrium 15:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm... sorry, Xompanthy, I don't get it. Yeah, he's obviously talking about me (but not for the first time, he talked the same way to some of the many community-banned internet trolls with whom I had to deal: User:Afrika paprika and User:CroDome).


 * Well at least not right now (referring to the Adminship), OK? :) --PaxEquilibrium 16:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * To be frank, the main reason of my skepticism is the possibility of a hack. About a year ago I've passed through a most traumatic experience in which I was hacked by a very, very intelligent - yet bad-faith-spreading user (most probably User:Ferrick). Then again since that day I've installed every possible protection software imaginable (and update them on a regular bases).


 * So I'll tell you what - if you truly (not 99.99%, but 100%) think I am compatible enough to be an administrator, nominate me some time in the future (I want some more time to study further Wikipedia's policy; and I'll be quite busy in the following several days).


 * Regards. --PaxEquilibrium 22:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

If you think we lack administrators - how about your contribution? You have been very little active on Wikipedia - but with such attitude you could easily became an administrator yourself in the near future. Regards. --PaxEquilibrium 23:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * On second thought I'm not sure I'm willing to accept adminship nomination... --PaxEquilibrium 16:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You cannot be right more... --PaxEquilibrium 19:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * What to say other than guilty as charged...? --PaxEquilibrium 19:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Although, I'd not consider myself a patriot - I do not have a homeland (or motherland, whatever).
 * I was cast out from one (as you might conclude with war refugee bit on my user-page) and not accepted several other *fake* ones. --PaxEquilibrium 19:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

My articles - what do ya think?
What do you think of User:PaxEquilibrium/History - my articles? I have contributed greatly to early Croatian medieval rulers (because Croatia was under King Tomislav the greatest South Slavic country) and then I mostly concentrate on my specialty - Duklja. (Croatia is my birthplace, but I am "from" Montenegro) I have also contributed to Bosnian medieval history - check out Stephen II of Bosnia; and on Serbian medieval history Stefan Nemanja is mine. I've also vastly written Petar Petrović-Njegoš, but got tired over there.
 * However when it comes to "specialty" about medieval ages, I mostly contribute Doclean and Bosnian medieval (late; early is Croatian important) history (all rulers articles are my creations). --PaxEquilibrium 19:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I've also done (alone) Demographic history of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

BTW see this for insanity. :))) --PaxEquilibrium 19:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

History is not all I edit. :) I edit 'bout countries, musicians, people, nations - Stevan Hristić is my article...

I did apologize to him, but not on his talk page.

I'll do so over there if it'll fix up things. ;) --PaxEquilibrium 20:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

See WP:OWN. Of course I approve. The only thing I'd dare not approve is vandalism. When I say "my" I most certainly do not refer to "my" article, but the articles I edit - this a free place, and we all own it. ;)

Cheers! --PaxEquilibrium 22:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh for the love of God :)... that "hope you approve" was more tongue-in-cheek. I know how to be bold, and I think high enough of you to know you wouldn't call anything on wikipedia yours. -- xompanthy 22:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Lol, I know. I just like joking a lot. ;)
 * BTW don't force Kubura, now you're not being nice to him! I think you owe him an apology. :D


 * I can understand why Kubura is furious (he ignored most of my recent posts by archiving them), and I do not expect an apology for him for the same reason.
 * It'll most likely heal over time, just cool off. In several months we'll die laughing 'bout this (you included)!


 * Best wishes. --PaxEquilibrium 23:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

...maybe you've just be reading wrong books?

The amount of lies propagated, especially now after the 1990s, is immensely horrible - but one can always differ and find out a difference between truth, bended truth and a lie. Such is with history books. The most important thing about objectivity regarding this is diversity of sources.

My definitely most favorite historian is Croatian historian Ferdo Šišić, then there's also Bosnian-Yugoslav-Serbian historian Vladimir Ćorović - but one must note this: 80%-90% of what Vladimir Corovic writes are impossibly correct and wonderfully and neutrally written things - but 10%-20% of his sentences (especially those dealing with Bosnians) are very harshly POV-written. Konstantin Jireček is also a genius historian.

So we should first read/hear before we judge. around 95% of the things told by Vojislav Šešelj are utter idiocies and foolish claptraps for low IQ people - but 5% of his many books contain real, I won't dare-say-though-wise facts.

Just open the Serbian History schoolbook for say, High school. Such nationalist clap-traps presented are hardly imaginable. The book presents the Partisans as the worst bad guys, the Chetniks as the OK but still not fully good guys and glorifies the Nazi collaborators!.

In the end, it's all about how you view it. I myself am writing "Povijest hrvatskoga naroda"; later I had also started "Istorija srpskog naroda" and am also starting the "History of Bulgarians". In doing so, I intend to make 3 separate, but inter-connected balanced works, so that there will be no contradicting. I'm also thinking about writing a "History of Albanians", but that shall probably remain a dream... This way, I shall not present inter-conflicting historical viewpoints.

So: 1) History is nice, '''but you have to learn how to study it. 2) Your claims on how we're all bad (including that you hate all of us) are ergo, completely unfounded - it's just that many are blinded by bad things, so that they concentrate on them and completely ignore the good things. If you asked anyone (Croat or Serb) in 1848 about conflicts between Serbs & Croats, they'll think you're an insane lunatic - and say that it's practically the same people!

Did you get my point (I think I stranded a little too far from my point to philosophy, lol).


 * All the best!!! --PaxEquilibrium 12:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You know when I said I hated us all I wasn't being all that serious... The moment got me. The way we can still battle it out over the most insignificant things amazes me. Playing the blame game forever I would say should get tiring. But that doesn't seem to be the issue.


 * I just see it and feel so sick of it. Bottom line, I like us all (of course I do), I just find it that we, as a collection of neighboring peoples, act like morons 90% of the time. And there's no need for it. We're better than that.


 * And now that's enough of that :) -- xompanthy 17:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)