User talk:Yunshui/Archive 26

WHF

 * Not actually me, that time - please direct all vitriol to User:Jimfbleak... You might want to moderate your language a bit if you do so, however. For what it's worth, I'm not convinced that it was necessary to delete the page; it looked to me as though you were making a good-faith effort to draft an article. Whether we need such an article is another matter entirely (consensus regarding One Direction seems to be that the band members aren't individually noteworthy enough for their own articles), but deletion was, arguably, a bit harsh. If you'd like me to talk to Jim and perhaps get the page restored, just ask. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  09:17, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks for acting as human shield, the least I can do on return is to accede to your request especially when i've got it wrong  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  13:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say you got it wrong, per se, just that I myself wouldn't have done the same thing. But hey, if we all thought the same way about stuff we could just delegate all the admin work to ClueBot and twiddle our thumbs instead... I shall see whether Harry reappears and asks for his draft back; if he does, I'll happily restore it to userspace for him. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  13:29, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Copy of a message just posted on mine &mdash;I had checked over that page a couple of times. The user blanks it nearly everyday, then makes random articles about people (e.g. Homer Simpson). Thanks, Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 13:21, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

(Just finished taking a pair of scissors to several empty wrappers) At this point I'd like to put forward this question. Is this user WP:NOTHERE? MM (Report findings)  (Past espionage) 14:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * He's made a couple of mainspace edits, of which were either disruptive or minor. But yeah, probably a WP:NOTHERE case. Thanks, Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 14:55, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

email notice
Daniel Case (talk) 16:37, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

SPI clerk inactivity
Hi! I've moved you to the temporarily inactive section of the clerk's list at WP:SPI/C since you have not made any edits to cases in over a month. But feel free to move yourself back to active when you return! Hope all is well. --Rschen7754 20:17, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

XXYYXX
Hi Yunshui,

It appears you salted the page XXYYXX on 3 October 2012. The page Xxyyxx has since been created; however, I'm not sure if it's about the same thing or not. That aside, the new page should probably be moved to the all-caps title, although I am not entirely sure if having an all-caps title is proper convention. If not, then the all-caps title is useful as a redirect.

Many thanks, Michaelzeng7 (talk) 23:14, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

(The friendly neighbourhood pencil sharpener) Minus two YouTube sources which I've pulled from the article it seems somewhat notable. Unless of course Yun has a different story. The all caps title is used for the name of the band in the article so basically it looks like whoever created it is working around the salting of the original title. MM (Report findings)  (Past espionage) 17:16, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorted. There's probably enough there source-wise now to warrant an article; it's a world away from the version I salted. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  17:38, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

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Given this AfC submission, and concerning the aforementioned users' username, it is a blatant violation of WP:USERNAME, but I am not comfortable with sending him/her to AIV given that his/her edits were only to the AfC submission. Is a block in order? hmssolent \You rang? ship's log 08:52, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

(That guy at the interview every Monday) It would fail UAA that's for sure. You'd get . You may want to see another Admin about this but from my perspective they fail WP:NOTHERE. While I'm not sure how capable of bringing a block this is if you take it to an Admin who's more active then you can find out.

Y'all take care now. MM (Report findings)  (Past espionage) 23:33, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Obvious spam account is obvious. I've blocked them accordingly, and deleted the AFC (a copyvio of the company's website, incidentally; it should have been picked up on and dealt with way back in Feb 2012. Well spotted, HMSS!). Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  12:01, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem. All part of the service :). If only I had been more active last year, I probably would have spotted this one beforehand....oh well. hmssolent \You rang? ship's log 12:09, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

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Townofbluffton
I have unblocked per their request. Sorry I let this one slip a bit ... I went hiking yesterday and wasn't able to spend too much time online afterwards. Daniel Case (talk) 04:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No worries, thanks for picking it up. Hope you enjoyed your hike! Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  10:28, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Rely to your message to Dr. Manoochehri
To Whom It May Concern/ Wikipedia Team:

Thank you for your clarification about the rule and policies of creating a userpage with the Wikipedia. There are, however, a few points that should be brought to the attention of the Wikipedia Team as a defense for the charges that I am using Wikipedia for "self-promotion" or for "Advertising". Although that looks like it, but that is not true, for the following reasons:

1) I am a published author of 12 volumes of pictorial books for which I worked more than 15 years. Pictorial books are usually produced by the sponsorship of a government or a university or financially strong publishing house. For 1 volume of a scholarly produced pictorial book, between 5 to 20 persons should be hired to perform various tasks related to the production of a pictorial book (--before its publication). For the first time, a free-lanced author has started and completed the production of original, pictorial manuscripts as a post-doctoral, academically oriented project, by the investment of the author for all the costs. The resources that I inputted to complete the 12 volumes ( now published with Amazon/ KDP Select), could have well been used to produce between 200 to 500 books in the West by the use of advanced software such as a dicta-phone and an editing software. Just one picture of a castle in the desert of Iran cost about $500 to travel to that spot by a car rental office (-- no bus, train, car or airplane moves to that location; therefore,a car and a driver should be hired from the nearest city and go to that location and return.) This is just 1 example of about 5000 illustrations about the main features of the traditional architecture in Iran for my books. During the years that I worked on my books, I have not been paid a penny by any person, while a janitor is a Western country earns about $1000 a month and about $12,000 a year and about $120,000 for 10 years. The salary for the holder of a Ph.D. is about $5000 a month, and about $60,000 a year. For more than 20 years working on the production and completion of 20 volumes of architectural books ( 12 volumes of which are now published by Amazon and can be reviewed for free by all people of the world), I must have been paid by a sponsor about $1,200,000 just for time. So far, I have not earned even a penny for my works and my works can be used by all people for free. Introducing my books in Wikipedia, is similar to introduce an author and his work in Wikipedia, i.e., Gone With the Wind, by Margaret Mitchell; The Invasion of Body Snatchers by Jack Finny. This, I do not think violates the Wikipedia policy. There is no conceivable financial benefit from the introduction of my books in Wikipedia. Wikipedia has allocated space to even introduce famous pornstars. Does that mean that people that see the picture of a pornstar in a wikipedia page will refer to that pornstar and will offer her money to buy love from her? It is impossible that I sell my book via Wikipedia.

2) I have a personal weblog (www.dr-manoochehri-Phd.co.uk) for two years in which my manuscripts and my resume and a copy of my doctoral degree are presented.

3) 12 volumes of my books are already published by Amazon/ KDP Select.

4) Wikipedia invites all people of the world to create an account. It is written in the top (right) section of the page. When an account is created, the person that creates such account should introduce him/herself. I have created an account, in the userpage of which I have introduced myself and the title of books. It is obvious that people want to know a bit about an author and his/her educational background. I some countries, and I do not mention where, some books are written and published by some interest group that those books are %100 written chatting. They are written by literate people, sometimes with a B.A. degree, to advertise about a topic for their interest. If searched, I am sure that some of this genre of books are also introduced in the Wikipedia. It is very unusual that all the Wikipedia Team become very obsessd to delete my account so that no name of my books appear in the wikipedia.

5) I created the second account so that the articles in the deleted account be transferred to it and be saved.

I hope the above points be read by the team in Wikipedia. If you decide to delete the account, that is fine. I cannot have objection to it. But please make all the review of a person intending to create an account prior to the creation not after the creation. Wikipedia creates accounts for users very freely and easily, but then the team in the Wikipedia exercise the career of deleting accounts and articles.

Sincerely yours, Dr. Hossein Manoochehri — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.103.27.82 (talk) 12:29, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

(On behalf of Mr Yunshui) Formal. Just the way I like what I reply to. Dr Manoo, on behalf of Mr Yunshui I'd like to thank you for taking the time to explain your case, unfortunately though your knowledge still has gaps. If a User Page is deleted under the 'G11' prefix then it reads as something that was nothing but promotional with no intent for it to be encyclopaedic by making it worded in a neutral way. For the user psge to be allowed it would hsve to show some way that you intend to contribute to Wikipedia and your user page failed to do so, otherwise ut would not have been deleted.

As for your indefinite block I would like to point out that your reasoning is completely invalid, accounts cannot be deleted, a block simply stops it from bring able to edit most pages, I am unsure if Mr Yunshui revoked your Talk Page Access however and that should still be possible to edit.

Also it comes to my attention that you may have been attempting to make an article about yourself. Was this the case? In this case I encourage you to read this page which documents out rules on doing so. These policies need to be understood if you want your account to be able to edit again. You must also agree to not use the second account ever, only then do you stand a chance at an unblock, it does not guarantee an unblock though, it merely raises your chances. Your talk page should also have a notice that explains that you are blocked and how to become unblocked. If you read the links provided in that page too then your odds are raised higher.

One more thing. While such a mistake is commonplace in the new members of Wikipedia. Neither myself or Yunshui are actually paid members of a Wikipedia 'team', almost all of our members are volunteers who dedicate free time to Wikipedia.

Just read over the page that I have linked you to and you should be on your way to your target. When you are ready place a request for unblock on your talk page and a completely unrelated administrator will review the case.

Take care. MM (Report findings)  (Past espionage) 12:55, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * @Dr M: replied on your talkpage.
 * @MM: Thanks, but I should point out that User:Dr. Hossein Manoochehri, Ph.D. isn't blocked - I left his main account untouched, since it seemed to me that the alternate account was an honest mistake. There's therefore no need for an unblock request. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  10:27, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Reply to Sept.9, 2013 message
Thank you for the reply to my message. While a novel can be published by a few thousands investment, the physical publication of my architectural books, because they have to be published in the glossy paper, costs between $300,000 to $500,000. Such money is not paid to the author, rather it has to be spent for glossy paper, bindings, lithography, printing, and distribution. Furthermore, it is spent in the location of the sponsoring publishing house. That seems to be very difficult by the present publishing market.

Furthermore, my books are produced by an author that holds the highest academic degree in social sciences (a Ph.D.). Therefore, the main credit for the reliability of my work is the educational background of the author, not the reputation of a publishing house. A sun does not get light from a moon.

Let me thank you for your time to read and to reply to my message.

Sincerely yours, Dr. Manoochehri — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.71.214.200 (talk) 07:07, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Would you like to OA for a Molecular Biology course project?
Hi,

I and User:Keilana are OAs for this course project. Another professor, teaching another section of the same course, has just decided that she would also like to run this Wikipedia project. This is very last minute -- the course officially starts tomorrow. But as you can see, the course page is already thoroughly documented and very detailed, and so the role you would play would be as a mentor and guide for editing, and as a reviewer for articles as they are written.

Would you be able to help with this? If so, could you please let us know as soon as possible? I will be setting up the new section's course page this evening. Thanks! Klortho (talk) 20:19, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey Klortho. Thanks for thinking of me. Much as I'd like to say yes unconditionally, I'm really not sure that I have enough time at present to do a decent job of it. However, if both you and Keilana are OA-ing as well, and I'm just needed to pick up the slack, then I can probably help out.
 * And that's my five minutes wiki-time for today... Drop me an email and we can hash out the details; I'll try and check my emails later this evening. Cheers, Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  14:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * No worries, it looks like we got two other OAs. Thanks!  Klortho (talk) 01:30, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent, glad to hear it's sorted. Good luck with the course! Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  18:46, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The Paladin Brotherhood
I read the page on reasons for why you deleted a page. That said, what specific reason made you delete the page for The Paladin Brotherhood of Furman University?
 * Odd; the log shows it was deleted under G3 (hoax), whereas the deletion tag that was applied was A7 (no indication of significance). A spot of research shows that there's no evidence for this fraternity's existence available (there's a Paladin Club at the University, but it exists to provide sporting scholarships), so either tag could legitimately apply. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  11:31, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 11 September 2013

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Repetitive, duplicative loading of images
Does Commons have it's own governance separate from the WP? Is this a bit excessive, and who is in charge to prevent abuses over there? Thx, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:20, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Commons, whilst closely allied to Wikipedia, is effectively a different project - different rules, different admins, different processes. That said, I think these are definitely out of scope for their purposes, and so they could be deleted. You can tag them for speedy deletion by adding the text string  to the file pages at Commons; your unified login means that you have an account there as well. one of their admins will then be along to remove the files. Yunshui  雲 &zwj; 水  07:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explain, Yunshui. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:31, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

inre Young Malang
You deleted per the speedy, and the article was recreated as YOUNG MALANG and finally caught my eye when sent to AFD for wider discussion. While the original, apparently written by a newb, lacked sources and used a poor format, it is my conclusion that the topic of that film actually does meet WP:NF through many available sources, even if they were not used. I would ask you to consider returning the original article so we can tag it for improvements. The NEWER version has very little editing history, and far less content.  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 21:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * (Yun's Page's Pet Fish) You mean like a Userfication? MM (Report findings)  (Past espionage) 22:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No... I was asking for its return to mainspace for regular editing as the topic meets inclusion criteria. In the AFD of the second article the nominator, through the best of intentions, is mis-reading WP:NFF (third paragraph there being most applicable). As the film's production meets WP:GNG and  release IS imminent, I am going to undelete it myself and move it to my own userspace to address its lacking sources. And will move it back to mainspace in  couple days.  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 23:22, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * And after moving it to my userspace, I spent some time addressing issues and then simply edited the article now at AFD to fix it up. After an expected keep, the new one with the improper title will simply be moved to the proper title.  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 09:45, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You may want to check for copyvios before going ahead with that... I'm pretty sure that the synopsis existed somewhere else first, and the original article creator was blocked (by me) for repeated copyright violations. If you think it's notable - and I'm not arguing that it isn't - then a rewrite from scratch might be the best way to go.
 * I've also blocked User:Bull18Designs as a self evident sock of User:WeDesis. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  10:31, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough... but they certainly were not experienced editors. Pretty much as I went through the old version to eliminate the sense of advert, I had to eliminate most of its original content due to copyvio, replacing it with new, but happily found enough sources to meet WP:NF. And too, I have enlisted assistance in sourcing and content from Project India and Project Film.  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 15:20, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Did you know...
...that after creating your script to add shortcuts to User:Yunshui/To do and User:Yunshui/Tools in the top bar way back when (and adding it to my own scripts for testing), I decided to keep it because they were so useful? I go to the to-do page pretty much every day. I only just remembered today where those links actually came from. So thanks! Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 23:56, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * They quickly became my most-clicked links too. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds them useful. Did I give you a barnstar for their creation? Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  10:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Probably at some point, but it really wasn't that big a deal; as I recall, those were some of the easier scripts I've written. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 16:53, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.
This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help find a resolution. The thread is "Talk page of the article "Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati", Talk page of the editors themselves in discussion about the subject of the article, NeilN, Yunshui, Ihardlythinkso, Myself, Subject.". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! EarwigBot  operator /  talk  08:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

(Mind me chipping in about this to you Yun?) I may have missed something but at the end of the day I think he managed to boil it all down to two sentences. The personal attack bit has left me as clueless as you but nevertheless the damage and debate has already finished so would it really help now? MM (Report findings)  (Past espionage) 18:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Barnstar

 * I don't do it as much as I used to, but thank you - it's nice to be appreciated. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  10:47, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

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Kiyoshi Shiina
Can you please userfy this page again I would like to continue working on it. I have created a userspace here. CrazyAces489 (talk) 16:40, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

(The Chocolate Bar in the local shop) This one's a pretty round case, moved to user space, put out to an AFC which was then Redirected to the Article space page which is deleted per G4. Since the only concern is sources (sources have come close but they were passing mentions, not significant coverage) i'd say it's worth userfying him it again. Nothing majorly concerning about it.

Oh and CrazyAces, you wouldn't need to worry about creating the user space draft, Yunshui would most likely have checked the deletion log and moved it to the same name as it had previously been userfied to, it was a good thing to do though and i'm sure it will help him. MM (Report findings)  (Past espionage) 17:18, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * After the page was previously userfied some months ago, you added a single source (Judotree) which failed to provide the requisite in-depth, reliable, independent coverage that the AFD discussion concluded was lacking. I'm not averse to re-userfying the page, but I would first need to know that you had located suitable sources to address the notability issue. If you can provide me with at least one suitable source (that is to say, an independent, reliably published piece that discusses Shiina in some depth) I will happily recreate the page. However, userfication is not an automatic alternative to deletion - you don't get to keep a deleted article indefinitely in userspace on the pretext that it might theoretically be fixable. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  19:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

✅ MM (Report findings)  (Past espionage) 19:13, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * To be honest. Judo isn't big in the United States, so it would be hard to major coverage even of Olympic level athletes.  In the Judo world though, there are a number of people who are significant.  In this link you will see him with 2 other people who each have articles on wikipedia.   .  Shiina was brought to the USA with the help of Jerome Mackey (one of the first people to franchise martial arts) in order to spread Judo.   .  Rank by itself does not signify notability but Shiina is an 8th degree black belt in Judo who created a large lineage of Judo/BJJ schools including the ones listed and this one   and trained national champions and olynpic level cahmpions.  He is also an official representative of the USJF   . CrazyAces489 (talk) 20:07, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Believe me, I know what it's like trying to write about martial artists on Wikipedia - aikido presents similar problems (there are numerous top-flight aikidoka who are household (dojohold?) names in the aikido community, but who simply haven't had the coverage required for an article here). It's no slight on Shiina's ability, rank or legacy; it's just how Wikipedia's inclusion criteria work: ironically his protege Joe Wanag has been written about fairly extensively and so makes the cut. As before, there's nothing in the above sources that meets the requirements ofWP:GNG - I've done my own searches to try and turn up anything that might fit, but I'm afraid I've had no more luck than you. Without at least one in-depth source on Shiina, I can't see this article surviving here, sorry. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  20:19, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I totally understand what you're saying. I am not asking at this point to recreate the article. In fact all I wanted was to userfy it and this will allow me to put in more sources as they came along. Additionally, I don't keep articles in userspace for a long while. I am working on a number of articles to prevent automatic deletion. I brought the article to articles for creation because I thought there would be some sort of discussion like there was with articles for deletion. I didn't know it would automatically be put up. You're right about Joe Wanag but he was also an olympian so was already notable even if no article was written about him. CrazyAces489 (talk) 20:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Ah, what the hell - there's no great harm done by userfying the page, and there's really no need for me to be a dick about it. I've put it back in your userspace for you - just make sure it's got appropriate sources before putting it back. If I find anything suitable, I'll send it your way. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  21:46, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * thank you! :D  CrazyAces489 (talk) 22:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Any opinons on this source? CrazyAces489 (talk) 21:16, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a passing mention in a student newspaper (The Oswegonian has a high circulation for such a publication, at around 3500, but it's still nowhere near close to a mainstream media source). I can't see any way that it meets the WP:GNG requirements, I'm afraid. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  09:09, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Bhati allegations
As you know, as volunteer editors at Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati, we (you, NeilN, and me) have been accused repeatedly of "degrading" both Hridayeshwar (a disabled boy) and his father, "insulting" them, "humiliating" them, "making fun of" them, and even "abusing" them. The accusations have come from the presumed self-identified father (User:Sarower Sigh Bhati) and several were reinforced by the presumed subject (User:Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati). Many of these false attacking allegations have been personally directed at me. I don't take that kind of blatant and baseless slander lightly ("degrading/making fun of/abusing" a disabled boy). What I'm wondering is, the Wikipedia appears to take it lightly, and I'm wondering why that is. (In my mind, that kind of thing should be stomped on at once, via sanction[s].) p.s. In an unrelated incident, but along this same line of thought, I was also accused by an administrator, User:Drmies, of having a "User page filled with lies". I don't take that kind of slander lightly either, and the fact it came from a WP admin, says something. In general I'm wondering why the WP tolerates this kind of aggressive crap. It's defaming, slanderous, and very not nice. (I'm supposed to let it roll off my back like a duck? These false allegations are a permanent public record here, and anyone with any amount of savvy could track down and associate a RL name to my WP userid.) Thanks for any your thoughts. Sincere, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:25, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Civility's a tough one to call - one editor's friendly banter is another's grievous insult - and I think that may well be why the community tends to overlook anything but the most obvious and egregious incivility. The anonymity of the internet doesn't help; people feel free to say stuff online that they'd never utter face-to-face, and as a result one seems to be expected to suck up online abuse that would get you into fistcuffs or worse in the real world. Here, we also have WP:AGF as the continual counter to WP:CIV, which I think increases the leeway available to abusive editors (not that I disagree with the principle of AGF; it's one of the most important policies we have). Thus, historically, Wikipedia has always been fairly tolerant of insults (both overt and subtle) and you usually need at least an ANI thread to see any sanctions imposed for such behaviour.
 * Naturally I'm not too happy either about being accused of heaping insults and abuse on a disabled kid, especially when I've gone out of my way on a number of occasions to try and help him and his father out as editors (you'll note that I actually created the current iteration of the article, after deleting the unacceptable puff-piece that preceded it - trust me, you'd have had conniptions at that one!). Were I an outsider in this case, I'd probably be reaching for the block button (I can't, of course), but since it seems the editor in question has taken voluntary retirement it may not be necessary to do anything after all. However, as the fellow-recipient of his allegations (which, as any reviewer will have spotted, are not backed up by diffs of any sort), my response is a resounding "meh" - I've come to the conclusion that I can't help these people, and I want nothing more to do with the whole silly fiasco. I accept that you don't want to go down that route yourself, and I'm honestly not sure what the best course of action to suggest might be - you could file an ANI report, but I strongly suspect it would get closed without action (we don't often block for what many editors will see as a very mild personal attack, and the Bhati's appear to have abandoned Wikipedia anyway). The other option's an RCU, but frankly, I think that would be a huge time sink to file - I'm sure you have better things to do. As I said, I'm not sure I can suggest anything that will result in you getting satisfaction, although the DRN report might close with some sort of sanctions, depending on which admin gets to it first.
 * I know that you're dissatisfied with the admin community here, and at this point I doubt there's much I can say to restore your faith in it. I can't immediately see anything on your userpage that would prompt Drmies accusation, although I guess he might have taken offence at your list of quotes (which I personally see nothing wrong with, but hey, I'm just some guy). Again, I suspect that you won't get much satisfaction from ANI or other avenues of redress, if for no other reason than that you have, to put it bluntly, pissed off a fairly sizable section of the admin corps by now (I don't include myself in that section, by the way).
 * In conclusion, yes, crap like this is par for the course on Wikipedia. You should see my email inbox someday; a death threat a month is about par for the course for your average admin. Everyone's a dick on the internet. I sympathise, but - on Wikipedia at least - accusing someone of lies or malice isn't going to result in sanctions. Whether it should or not is a whole other debate, and one that should take place at the Village Pump or at WT:CIV; the state of play at present, however, is simply that the community is fairly tolerant. I know that's not the way you'd prefer it, but it's like that, and that's the way it is. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  12:12, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your inputs. I s/ have pointed out I lost faith in ANI a long time ago, and would never open any incident there under any circumstance. I have equal distaste for RFCU after perusing a couple examples there. (These matters of slanderous and baseless allegations, IMO, are too serious for the likes of ANI or RFCU (where "anyone can edit"), which are basically run without standards or protocols and create their own new problems of false allegation and smear, which I've seen and experienced too.) As far as your receiving death threats in Emails, if I were you, I'd contact the local police. (That is a felony.) I wish you wouldn't have wrote that I'm "dissatisfied with the admin community" at WP since that is not true. I do not disparage in groups or think that way. If I've written something to an admin that has pissed them off, then it was a one-to-one thing and I spoke my mind about over a specific point(s) vis-a-vis that admin. The fact admins have admin friends on the WP is well-known without my saying, they often are seen coalescing in their friends-groups planning/talking it up against lowly content contributors like me that have ruffled their God-almighty feathers. That is part of the sick, abusive culture at WP that pre-existed before my arrival here. I'd like to see it gone but of course one person cannot change a culture. So I limit myself to telling an admin what I think if an incident warrants. The fact there is already a thick culture of abuse and admin-friend networks at play guarantees like you said, that I've "pissed off a sizeable [...]". But that is an exaggeration too counting the total number of admins on WP. (I think I can count on two hands the number I've had clashes with.) Thanks again for your candid responses, I appreciate, I really do. Sincere, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:48, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * p.s. It never occurred to me that Drimies may have been referring to my list of collected quotes. (I guess because those quotes are others' not mine, and, several are by Malleus, whom Drmies is friendly with.) If that is what he was referring to then I can feel a whole lot better about his remark (since it doesn't equate to a personal accusation then of "telling lies"). Thanks for that. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:14, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it couldn't have been my list of quotes, because Drmies wrote "Your talk page is full of your lies", and the list of quotes is on my User page, not my Talk. So this is still an accusation from Drmies that I have "told lies", and I can't tell you how much I resent that. (He wrote that without any intent to back up in any objective discussion, so, it amounts to a simple malicious smear. This is the kind of "acceptable culture" WP tolerates in its admins? I guess you have already answered that. But this is admin stuff. I've also been treated ruthlessly by a couple other admins, but, believe it or not I have received distinct apologies from said admins over said treatments. That's at least something.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:40, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * p.p.s. You'll notice if you go to that Drmies post, he invites me to leave WP. This is typical response from over-sensitive admins who cannot seem to tolerate someone questioning them, it is not the first time I've gotten that prickly response from an admin. Another popular prickly response to questioning or criticism: "If you feel that way, take me to ANI then and get me desysopped. Otherwise beat it." This in lieu of contemplating the veracity of the complaint, and a little reflection how they might do better in their adminship. (Two admins, User:Kudpung and User:Ched, basically told me in separate incidents that if I had complaints about any admin, then I should either go for RfA myself, or shut up. This kind of knee-jerk responses, inviting users to leave WP if they "don't like it", rather than do their part to change the culture by one of the drops in the bucket of an individual situation and their individual response, is as they say on WP "not helpful" and falls into some kind of degraded argumentation tier on the color chart of good arguments. That is elementary. So why these defensive responses from adims? Maybe they are burnt out!? Maybe they get all immature when questioned because they are not used to being questioned? We hear all the time how the admin staff feel they are the ones "abused", but, how often do you see one turn over their bit to escape that environment into the fold of a common content editor, if it is even true at all?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry for misrepresenting your views on admins - I should have remembered that you're not the type to lump editors (or anything else) together in a homogeneous group.
 * I really don't know the history between Drmies and yourself - if it's advice you're after, then I'd suggest simply steering clear of him. It's a big wiki, after all. I've generally been on pretty good terms with Drmies myself (leastways I can't remember getting into any spats with him), but he's got a fairly no-nonsense attitude and I can see how that may have escalated things. Sometimes, folk just happen to rub each other up the wrong way, especially on the internet: chances are that if you two met in person you might get on fairly well.
 * Don't leave Wikipedia, though; there are only a few other editors with the same dedication to the board games project, and it would be a great shame to lose you. I'd say you might benefit from dropping out of discussions a little sooner sometimes, but then we wouldn't have your voice in the Bhati furore (despite dewatchlisting the page, I got a ping from an old SPI and saw that yet another account - Hridayeshwar's mother? - seems to have stepped into the fray, making the same silly claims as previous incarnations), and that would have meant more pressure on NeilN and yours truly to refute the broken record of child prodigy-ness. (Just NeilN, now, of course; I've no patience for pursuing that particular mess any further). If you'd have an easier time in discussions (I don't class the Bhati thing as a discussion, it's just an SPA pile-on), then I'd recommend taking time to try and look through any insults or insinuations to discern the other editor's actual arguments, and addressing only those. However, whilst that's my own approach I realise that not everyone is willing or able to mentally edit out any vitriol directed their way. I'm sad that these events decrease your enjoyment of Wikipedia, and I hope that you'll continue to contribute regardless. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  09:36, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thx for your comments. It's not a matter of my steering clear of Drmies, that's easy enough to do, it is just that the accusation of me lying is something I won't find easy to forget, so if he wanted to create a Wiki-lifetime adversarial relationship, he's shown how efficient he can be about it. (What a baby. There was nothing preventing him from answering my Q w/ honest answer, except himself. You say he has "no-nonsense attitude", as WP editor I'd trim that to simply "attitude".) I understand your dropping out of Bhati article, I felt the same too, but did you know Bbb23 made some blocks!? (It made me feel better about contributing, since as you know I thought sanctions were overdue. Your and Neil's and Abecedare's objective participations have also impressed me and made me feel quite good about being WP editor, at least more than before. So thx again for that.) Cheers, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC) p.s. One thing about collecting enemies around here I've observed, is that depending who you are, if you have a clash w/ admin 'A', and admin 'A' has admin friends 'B', 'C', and 'D', you start to receive shit-treatment from 'B', 'C', and 'D' even though you've never had any direct contact w/ them. Smart people don't do that. (For example, take Malleus. He has an open mind with anyone and if he judges someone, it's based on his experience with them. He reminds me of George Carlin in that respect, who personalized every autograph he ever gave. Carlin distrusted institutions and groups, but adored an individual, unless they'd give him reason otherwise. Everyone should be like Malleus and Carlin -- the baddies would get their due, the civil people would live in harmony, and the world would make more sense [e.g. there would ergo be no mob rule or lynchings possible]. But these are advanced people. But everyone should endeavor to be that same way.) Cheers, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Good to know Bbb23's on the case - hopefully the whole thing can be put to bed in the not too distant future. And I agree with you wholeheartedly as regards Eric and George (that sounds rather like a 1950s comedy pairing... I for one would have paid to see The Eric and George Show) - for myself, I try to deal with everyone based on what I see them doing, rather than who I see them doing it with. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  11:54, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess I'm looking for advice at this point ... I was able to flesh out the rules to the Bhati 6-player game based on (primary source) info from Bhati's website. So that changes things for me, in the respect that mention of the game might no longer be inappriopriate in Chess variant article, which I initially opposed. (It's still true there are no source refs with focus on the game itself, only its inventor and the associated human-interest story of a young, disabled boy inventing and receiving patent. But in fleshing out the rules it's given me a grip on the fact the variant is legitimate and playable, and I guess I'd like to see it included in the Chess variant article list at this point on that basis, and I'm wondering if all the media coverage on the human interest end might suffice for or equate to "attention on [his] game", even though the coverage of the game itself (rules) is lite, but then again not totally non-existent. (A recent ref gave at least some part of the rules, which I guess stimulated me to filling in the blanks from the primary source website.) I'm thinking a stand-alone article on the game is still not justified (insufficient notability refs on the game itself), but inclusion in Chess variant list is, with a wlink to the rules section of the BLP. (In fact I dunno even if developing the rules section in the BLP was appropriate or not ... but I did it anyway.) Let me know what you think. Ok, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 07:47, 26 September 2013 (UTC) p.s. I could also see a "See also" ref in article Circular chess to the Game rules section of the Bhati BLP, for same reasons.
 * A "See also" section in Circular chess would make sense to me. I'm a little more hesitant about adding 6-way chess to the Chess variants list, purely because to the best of my awareness, there's no record of anyone actually playing it. The design is patented, but it doesn't seem to have been put into production, as far as I can tell. That said, if you feel it's worth including there then I'm not going to argue; I'd consider the articles about Bhati himself to be at least potential sources for the game as well.
 * Nice work expanding the ruleset; I see you also had some good advice for the designer as well! Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  07:57, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you're right ... the game is too new to have any real experience base or writeups re playing it (or it having been played). So it's in that sense "theoretical" really, and in fact they (father & son) may find they have some rule adjustments needing to be made. (What's there is pretty good though, and shows significant thought.) I'll add the "See also" at the Circular article pointing to the "Game rules" section of Bhati's BLP, I think that's good like you suggested. Thx & sincere, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:08, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

CVA Student?
Hey, I noticed you were a "tutor" at the CVA. Would you be willing to accept me? I have used STiki for a while, but I'd just like the extra reinforcement of having a more experienced editor help me learn about vandalism. Thanks! Miszatomic &#124; Leave a message 20:54, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Can do. If you want to take the formal route, I suggest you kick off by going here, creating a copy a copy for yourself by following the instructions under "Your first task", and then removing all the sections apart from "Vandals" from your copy. You've then got a stripped down version of my adoption school which relates only to vandalism; completing the tasks there will qualify you as a CVUA graduate. It's not obligatory, though; if you're just after some advice and pointers we can do that too. From a (necessarily) brief glance at your talkpage it looks as though you've made one or two errors with STiki in the past; we can take those as a starting point for discussion if you'd like. Welcome on board; I look forward to seeing you trouncing vandalism with the best of them before very long. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  21:08, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you
Thanks for reviewing my first substantive edit on Wikipedia. Augur NZ &#x2710;  &#x2315;  04:34, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

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Bonkers
I've endorsed your proposal to unblock. Did you think I was an admin? ;-) Ritchie333  (talk)  (cont)   08:20, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I did, actually. Why aren't you? We need all the help we can get! Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  12:10, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I wanted to wait until I had a very obvious chance of passing an RfA. While (AFAIK) I've never deliberately personally attacked anyone, I occasionally do straight and blunt talking to people (example from today, example from a month or two ago), and in an RfA I would mention that up-front, which could cause some people to oppose due to being incivil. Still, I know one other admin who's asked me, so if you feel it's a goer and you can find a co-nominator (I'd suggest Huon), I don't see what harm there is giving it a go. Ritchie333  (talk)  (cont)   15:20, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Richie's not an admin? Ho well this is my first bit of learning for the day (12:25AM). MM (Report findings)  (Past espionage) 23:27, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Sandbox Advice / Copyrights
Hello, Thank you for raising the issue of copyright infringement, but I was in the process of reworking the Vogue article for a class project. The unsourced reference was as I had copied it from the existing article, and I had not yet rooted out all of the unsourced content. I was under the impression that the sandbox was a safe place to construct material in progress, but if not, could you direct me the best way to continue to work on content? Thank you Hec44 (talk) 22:23, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Hec44. I think I may have done you a disservice - I've since realised that the text in your sandbox that I found to be a copyright violation was in fact entirely the text taken from the Vogue (magazine) article. I'll restore your sandbox page after writing this message, and my apologies for freaking you out like that. Technically you are committing a copyright violation of sorts (see Copying within Wikipedia), but we're fairly lenient about that (attribution is fairly easy to fix after the fact). Now, of course, I have to work out whether the book has been copied from Wikipedia or the other way round... going to be a fun evening. Sorry again for the inconvenience. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  22:38, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that didn't take long; turns out Hombach's book copied text from Wikipedia, rather than the other way around (the section in question appeared in Wikipedia back in 2009, before his book was printed). And that, ladies and gents, is why self-publishers are not reliable sources. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  22:54, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * That is really interesting, I was all ready to source the book. Thanks for searching that out, and the cupcake =) Is there a program you might be familiar with to run the rest of the article through to look for missing sources? I'd like to try to catch any sneaky ones that may not have gotten their due diligence. Also thanks for bringing up Copying within Wikipedia, I'll be sure to reference back to the original article to keep the page up to snuff. Best, Hec44 (talk) 01:29, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
 * To the best of my knowledge we don't have an automated tool that will check for missing sources, although you can locate all articles that have been tagged as needing referencing at Category:Articles lacking sources. The verifiability policy, if you haven't already seen it, explains what sort of statements specifically need sources; that might help you a bit. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  12:59, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Sandbox moves
Hello again. I'm feeling really old and Alzheimery these days. But I can't remember how to move my articles out of my Userspace OR out of my Sandbox. "John Esten Park" is stuck in my Sandbox and I'm afraid to leave the page. Can you just Publish for me and then I can easily edit it, mostly added the references. And "Texas FM 466" is stuck in my User space. I hit " Save page" but that doesn't Publish, it just saves. Let me out of here! (I find Wizard to be gobbledygook.) Well, right now I'm gonna smoke some therapeutic weed and go to sleep. Well, go to sleep for sure. Thanks for your help. WoodyinNYC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WoodyinNYC (talk • contribs) 03:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Moving pages is actually pretty straightforward (instructions are here, though I'm happy to do it for you if you aren't comfortable going it alone). I'd shift both of these for you, but to be perfectly honest the sandbox draft isn't quite ready for mainspace yet, and would almost certainly be deleted in short order if it was found there. It's in critical need of references - it currently doesn't have any, and without them, Dr Park's not going to be considered notable enough for an article. You need a minimum of two - preferably more - reliable sources which discuss the man in detail, and which verify statements made within the article. If you can find these, let me know the URLs and I'll be happy to do the work of formatting them into the draft for you.
 * To be honest, the Texas FM 466 entry could use more references as well, but it's probably got enough to save it from speedy deletion. I'll move it to Texas FM 466; let me know if you'd prefer a different title. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  12:59, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Maissiat (singer)
Thanks for what you do for our encyclopaedia. I created the page Maissiat (singer) ; and I would really appreciate if you could restore it, so that I can add on it more information and make it meet the required criteria. Thanks! Sepal V. Gamet (talk) 09:27, 29 September 2013 (UTC).
 * Given that the only text on the page was, "Amandine Maissiat (1982-), known under the artist name of Maissiat, is a French singer", and referencing only the artist's website, there honestly doesn't seem much point in restoring it. If you can find a few independent sources that provide some in-depth coverage of Maissiat, then I'll happily put it back, but I see no immediate indications that she meets our guidelines for inclusion for musicians. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  12:59, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Please would you take a moment...
to look at Special:Contributions/Nivedita_tiwari where a newish user is creating articles within the topic Advertising that appear to be created so fast and in such detail that I suspect copyright violations. The editor appears to come form a part of the world where such styles of addition to Wikipedia are more common. I feel you may have the corrects skills to help them understand our policies. Fiddle  Faddle  11:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks worrying similar to the works created by User:Deesha.chheda and User:Disha.c, whom I assumed to be sockpuppets. Either we've got a more prolific socker on our hands than I at first thought, or we've got yet another influx of ill-prepared students whose teacher hasn't taken the time to prepare them properly. Oh joy... Yunshui  雲 &zwj; 水  12:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It looks like the latter. Do you have a template that you use on their talk pages? Nice wording off the top of your head otherwise :) Fiddle   Faddle  13:01, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've left a similar message for all the students that I've identified so far - if you see any more new articles like this pop up, feel free to use my wording to leave the creators a message (not a template; I've just seen this sort of thing before - more times than I'd care to). And if you do happen to find out or work out their tutor's account name, let me know; I'd like a word with them... Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  13:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

You deleted Leopold's of london as a hoax g3
Im sorry. But I can put the "legend of" in the title. It is a tale that has been passed down. I have no references on it. But it is there you know. I dont know why you would delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imfindi (talk • contribs) 12:45, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Because, as you so correctly point out, you have no references for it. You cannot create pages on Wikipedia which are not supported by reliable, third-party references. Unless you can provide such references, you may not recreate the article. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  12:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Librello deleted
Dear Yunshui, you have deleted the entry of Librello publishing with out reviewing previous talks where information is provided on the Legitimacy of the company and the importance of the new model of business to open access publishing companies. I will greatly appreciate if next time, more feedback is provided on how to write a proper Wikipedia entry instead of just deleting new information, just to mention that a good feedback is more than just a link to a rule, a good feedback can include examples and good practices. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Josille1 (talk • contribs) 13:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * you have the information already at the head of your talk page in the welcome message. Perhaps you missed it? Please allow me to point you at it. The welcome message is there to guide you in all matters about Wikipedia. I hope you find it useful and read it before attempting to create further articles. We want articles here, we really do, and we wan them to be of a high standard.  Fiddle   Faddle  13:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I did in fact review the "previous talks" (I assume you're referring to your comments on earlier versions of the article's talkpage), but in both those statements and the ones on the present version of the page you have yet to demonstrate that Librello is notable by Wikipedia's standards. This requires - as you have already been told - multiple, independent, reliable sources that discuss the topic. In this case, you have only one non-independent source (CLOCKSS) and one unreliable one (a forum thread); neither of these is suitable. Much as you may dislike being pointed at rules and policies, they exist for a reason; please take the time to read at least the basic content and sourcing policies (verifiability, notability and reliability) before contributing further. If you can't manage even that, then please take thirty seconds to read WP:42, which concisely explains exactly what is needed to disqualify an article from speedy deletion under Criterion A7: Non-notable subject. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  21:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)