User talk:Z2qc1

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Please use preview
You did 19 edits in 15 minutes to one article Faith Freedom International. Mistakes can happen and an important block of text was dropped. Please use the Show Preview and Show Changes button to verify that the text is what you want and please use Edit Summaries. What happens if you don't use Edit Summaries is that your changes will get reverted if they are contentious. On some articles it is best to use Talk first before removing any text (Faith Freedom International is probably one of those); no edit summary and no talk on difficult subjects usually gets reverted. Ttiotsw 06:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Please dont delete content from Faith Freedom International
Hello Z2, in this edit you removed the fact that FFI was banned by some Muslim countries. Can you explain why you did this? As you can see, every edit is recorded so its hard to get away with stuff here. --Matt57 19:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

_____ I had no idea what i was doing that made the "FFI banned in some muslim countries" dissappear. What was happening was that i edited and provided a list of countries that view the FFI site according to % based on site meter. Then when i began inserting it somehow the references after ref no. 21 was being messed up. I understood that it was due to my recent edit on the countries... topic.

You see thats how  you will see i had 15 edits in like 15 minutes kind of. I am new and plus i was not aware how to use the discussion page and get answers. so i did my best to restore the page. I could not. Surprisingly someone else was also editing the same page. I thought he may help or he may restore the page properly. But that did not happen. I am pleased that user Titsow and you have spoken about it. Again i have no idea how to message you guys so i am using this page to type me response. I dont know if you or anyone will read this. If you can let me know how to send messages to users. so next time i can bring it to someonelses attention when i go wrong.
 * Thats ok, just be careful when you delete stuff in one edit, keep track of it where it goes, also as the above user pointed out, use "Preview" if you are going to do lots of editing, its helpful. Thanks for letting me know.--Matt57 04:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

oh come on matt, i am not apologizing to you. "Thats ok" sounds like i did something against you that hurt you. What do you mean by "its hard to get away". get away from what?. Honestly ! i am still reading stuff on the wiki to find how to edit pages better and i am yet be to sure of exactly how to. I used preview, but he problem was the references. They were getting messed up. and i thought it prehaps is only a particlar tag like or / kind of thing.

I dont understand this particular article anyways. It is more of a advertisement than information. I mean just look at the references majority of them are from FFI website itself. I thought putting some references from outside the FFI website would help.
 * That would be great, if you can find more outside references. We have some, look at the bottom, but we need more. If you see your edits getting messed up, you can always revert. See the last version of a good edit, hit Edit and then save - that reverts. You can also click Undo. Ok and another thing: you put in the information about Views and countries, thats good, but really its sort of petty information as compared to what the article is really about. You know, every website has that sort of information. I think the fact that we gave a link to the Site meter there is sufficient. You could try maybe improving the "Views on Islam" section. Anyway, edit as you feel is appropriate and useful for the article. --Matt57 05:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Emm. guess what i was messing up on the tags "ref (begining) and ref ending i did not use </ for the ending. Anyways, The problem is there are no outside references Matt. You should know that better. Intellectuals do not use internet as a source material. I have written thesis and stuff trust me i know what i was talking about when i said this article is only a peice of advertisement and not information. About my edits: Views and countries. There 'is/was' (wiki remember) a statement where it says banned in Saudi,had a reference, good. Followed by a sentence saying that it was banned in 'some'muslim countries(a generalized statement stereotyping many countries that may be muslim) without a reference Ah An !!not good at all. Then it stated its own website claim that pakistan too had it banned. This reference was from the website itself of course not good enough.

So there was information being sent out.
 * 1) Website is notorious/famous for being banned thats is called negative publicity.
 * 2) I assume the article is present only because it proved its notability by showing the number of visitors it had and the number of cross links it had. However the truth is that it has 1200 members only. Any silly christian, muslim, jew, forumn/blog has more members that that.
 * 3) I would think that a website is notable by what services it provides and what benifits its users.
 * 4) your comment "edit as you feel is appropriate and useful for the 'ARTICLE'. Matt you may be a veteran at wiki. I am not. BUT i do know that wiki is here not for promoting websites rather its here to be an encyclo'pedia' which is for the benefit for the readers and useful for the readers. So theusefulness should be looked at frmo the point of view of the reader and not the veiws and ideas of someone.
 * 5) i dont think that my edit was petty. If a link for site meter is sufficient to tell about the sites rankings  etc. Then in that logic why have such a long article about FFI. Just have its  mission statement and the challange and give a link to FFI. Thats it and would save a lot of time for all of us.
 * Hello Z, the reference for the website being banned in Pakistan, is all we have right now. We have to use the best reference. I wish there was some way we can confirm the banning Iran too. Its obvious they are banning anything ani-Islamic. Can you beleive they banned the Persian version of BBC and Amazon.com? Surely FFI must have been banned too. Also if we now mention that fact on BBC's page that its banned in Iran, that doesnt mean its negative publicity. This is important information about BCC. Please look at this whole issue objectively. 1200 members is not true. There's no "membership" of the website anyway - thats irrelevant. You should also say that 100 of those members are actually automatic spammers (for example). This membership is just those people who registered in the forum. There's no official membership - thats the main point. Your (3) is incorrect. You should read WP:N. The article was deleted before and the complaint then was it was not notable enough. After the article was revived, notability was established by the external links. You can read the last page deletion discussion here. The external links establish notability and you can read many of the reasons in that discussion why the article is notable. If Wiki is not here for promoting websites, then are you saying its wrong to have CNN ? Its not. I think you are only against the idealogy of the website, thats the only reason you're speaking against it. If you say its alright to have the Challenge of the website in the article, then why is it not okay to have other information on the site? So I'll suggest you to read the above Deletion discussion and notability. If you want to work on a criticism section, maybe that would be a good choice for you. Saying stuff like 3% of the website's visitors were from China is much less important than what the website actually says. Your edit actually prompted me to move all that less important stuff down. Websites Ranking and Disambiguation is not as important as the actual views, the challenge and the Debates on the site - makes sense. You can also sign your comments using the Signature button. And I'm not a vetaran here, I'm just an editor like everyone else. Actually you cant beleive how much time admins spend on WP here. Yesterday I saw this Persian Poet Gal, she was constantly editing for 7 hours and they do that everyday. Now THOSE are veterans. I'm just a little foot solder. Its been a long battle for this article. Its been deleted 2 times by now, I think. It wont go away this time because there are external links and thats part of what establishes notability. I've had a hard time with some articles critical of Islam. Some people basically dont like the presense of anything critical of Islam and thats wrong, obviously and doesnt achieve anything. So if you know of any external references for FFI, please put them in,thank you.--Matt57 18:30, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Man!!! The first things i read about wiki on its tutorial is this "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia incorporating elements of general encyclopedias, specialized encyclopedias, and almanacs. All articles must follow our no original research policy and strive for accuracy; Wikipedia is not the place to insert personal opinions, experiences, or arguments." Can you read the last line ??? Now read your statement "Saying stuff like 3% of the website's visitors were from China is much less important than what the website actually says". What the website says is what the owner of the website says in this article correct. Now recollect the last line of the first pillar of Wiki."Wikipedia is not the place to insert personal opinions, experiences, or arguments" wiki article on FFI is mostly indicates personal opinion, experiences and arguments of Mr. Sina.

I dont have an inclination to waste your time Matt. You know well that your motive is only to promote the website. My motive is to provide readers with adequate information to enable them to understand what the enclyclopedia says about a particular topic. Giving readers information that the website has 20,000,000 visitors sends an extraordinary signal. But telling readers that inspite of 20,000,000 visitors the site has 1200 members who post and write on its pages. The emails it receives has been red 5000 times balances the scale. I believe i should give two views of the same thing (not pro nor anti just pure fact)and a user/reader decides what it is worth. Matt these are not my ideological arguments. these are facts posted by the site (members and readings) and the sitemeter.com (country veiwership) Its silly to think everyone who edits is against FFI or against you. You are perhaps trying to advertise the site 'only' and any views which you think is against its advertisement should be deleted or sent to thebottom page. THATS ideological i think! Be happy matt.Be positive. Hate only kills our soul. Hate only helps us think irrationaly. Same goes with excessive love. BBC and FFI (wrong analogy). 3% of China is 30 million thats a lot, wrong example. CNN ? again, a wrong example.Z2qc1 20:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Z2, can you explain your edit here? Why did you delete the interwiki link? (Sorry I didnt know you had responded to my query here. I'll respond some time). --Matt57 00:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont understand ?? its still there as it was isnt it ? i did not delete anything. Z2qc1

Oh ok i get it i think it was a mistake i happened to delete '|' between the words. I hope its ok now. Let me know if it isnt. I had no idea how to respond to you better. So i assumed that if you raised the issue here i will respond here itself. This way the issue to which i am responding stays in focus and responses stay organized and in order rather than some stray paragraph written after another. Z2qc1 02:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok. For your other post: I dont know why you're so focused on 1200 members. How many "members" does Google have? We dont know. Is that important? FFI has no defination of a member. A member of a site is someone who pays monthly dues and their name is included somewhere on a member list. This is just a FORUM. Its not a membership. If you registered in the forum, are going to be a member of FFI? No you are not. So why are you saying 1200 members? If this is the logic you're using, your whole post can be refuted likewise.

Of course the number of members are important. That shows how many people actually register with the website to comment on something. a member on the site does not have to pay monthly dues. its not a membership for some aces club. Its a membership of people who register with the site. See, when you say that the site has 400,000 visitors means 400,000 people read the stuff on there. NO IT DOES NOT. Stats show that peolpe spend less than 5 secs on the page. around 5 minutes on the site. Who can in 5 minutes read the rattle that the debates have in them? FOR ISLAM OR ANTI islam doesnt bother me. BUT Have some common sense and see with open eyes and look at the rubbish the site has. Mr. Sina constantly contradicts herself.(look at the sentence carefully). The site is playing a number game. Cross linking etc. But some numbers cant be played with. nearly 60 % of visitors are from the USA next is Europe which is like 5 or 10%, then there are only 1 or less than 1% of people in the rest of the wolrd who vsit the site.Z2qc1


 * "article on FFI is mostly indicates personal opinion, experiences and arguments of Mr. Sina." -- you've misunderstood Wikipedia. An article on Chris Hansen can have opinions of Chris and so on. FFI can have opinions of FFI likewise. But I or YOU cant have our opinions on Wikipedia because we are just civilians, no one knows us. Thats what the policy meant, get it now?--Matt57 12:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

LOOK what should be included in wiki is not someones personal comments or opinions said by himself. You wont want the entire sayings etc of Muhammedin Muhammed's article. For example tha last edit i did on threats. as per your standards you allow 20 sentences while i sumarised it in 2. Thats a scholarly article on a particular issue. I dont need to say what Mr. Sina said, felt, cried, hailed in extasy then went to his mom and his mom said such and such then his lawyer said....then he did this etc etc. i just need say that he alleged he was threated by a lawsuit. The law suit never took place.END. THATS enclyopedia or wikipedia. whereas the first one which you may like is his own biography OR AND ADVERTISEMENT GIMMICK. Imagine 37 -40 links in an article referring to his own site??? i mean open your eyes. Have you ever seen a paper published with 20 references of the same author and his own works, any article article or a comment which gives references of its ownself.Z2qc1

Imagine an article on myself. "Z2qc1 is a great man (ref:1)Z2qc1 says Mr Sina was abused when he was a child by a Mullah(ref:2) Z2qc1 thinks Mr. Sina is headed to form a cult and become rich like benny hinn, de Jesus, Osho rajneesh, Bahaullah etc.(ref:3) Z2qc1 feels matt is being gullibel and may loose his money etc (ref: 4) Z2qc1 claims that Mr. Sina sent him an email asking for a donation not for himself but for the great cause of saving humanity (ref: 5). Z2qc1 received an email from FFI stating tha Mr. Sina personally wishes to meet him. When they did meet, Mr. Sina laid out the plan of how to best use people's hatred and drive it towards Islam and make money. The maximum donataion from each person should be 10 cents and thus in a year the total amount we both can make is more than 40 million.(ref:6)

1 z2qc1.com 2 z2qc1.com 3 z2qc1.com 4 z2qc1.com 5 z2qc1.com 6 z2qc1.com Would you like such an article on wikipedia?????Z2qc1
 * Are you saying that if FFI is the only website which mentions the 1 million Rs. Fatwa, then that statement cant be mentioned in the article? What is the exact policy of Wikipedia which prohibits this? and while you "summarized" the Fatwa issue, why did you delete the fact that a mullah was offering a 1 million Rs. award to kill Ali Sina? Can I go to the article Islam and delete things from there and call it "summazrizing". Nah, you dont have to summarize. Wikipedia is for EXPANDING infact, providing as much detail on the subject as POSSIBLE. You're trying to just censor everything and its not gonna work and dont tell me about the 3RR, I didnt do any RR thing on that article recently. I see what you're trying to do, what your motivations are and I can see very clearly, sorry it wont happen unless you support it by Wikipedia policy. And do you know much time I spend on CNN every day? 5 minutes too. Does it mean CNN is also a non-notabl website? I dont think so. And again, membership of the forum, is not memebership of the site. FFI doesnt HAVE a membership. Can you tell me where FFI says "Become a member" ? Then please dont talk about its membership. You should coordinate your efforts with User:Itaqallah who has similiar views as you and see what you guys can come up with.--Matt57 21:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Wikipedia is for EXPANDING infact, providing as much detail on the subject as POSSIBLE" - yes, and that means covering what has been mentioned by third party, independent, reliable sources. currently, the FFI article has very little of such sources, which we are supposed to be using in order to determine what exactly about FFI, if anything, is notable enough to mention. i don't know what your final comment is supposed to mean, by the way.  ITAQALLAH   03:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Rants!!!!!and rants!!!!!!! All i asked was to give a page number or at least a few words in quotes from that peice where the death threat and the money is stated. If you can good include it. I said i could not find the ref and the debate was so lengthy and rambles thati cant go and read the entire debate. Imagine the plight of others. So all i asked was to include the very page where it says so about the reward as a reference. Is it so difficult for you? It was for me and so i deleted it and asked people to correct it if can. NOT REVERT IT. Dear Matt. If in a books shop 4 million people view the cover page or the midle page of the book then does that book become a best seller??? No it doesnt. Does that author become a great author?? no he doest. Mr. Sina's medium is like a book. PEOPLE HAVE TO READ !!!!! not just click enter exit. click enter exit makes 4, million visitors. click enter stay read and then exit makes only 1000. Yes FFI says that to contribute in forumns we have to register. That registeration makes members. Have you not noticed FFI only advertises about how many visits it had. Does it ever say like other fourmns about how many registered people it has. May be now that you are aware of this you may help in boosting their registrations. Just likeat the end of a month the site visit goes its nadir then suddendly next week it zooms to its zenith.

Please show me the wiki policy of providing DETAIL !! and include the explanation of detail. The allegations againt Muhammed are in detail or in a summary form on the article ??? will you go ahead and provide the details ??? then it would be just like the endless rambling on FFI debates and counter debates. What censor ship you are refering to?? My edit still says that he claims to have received death threat and that he claims to have received a law suit threat. What was censored from the original?? about he 20,000 $ reward, well i again say go ahead and include it only give a sutiable reference page or since its on the internet at least give something like a ".....mullah so and so said ....20,000 $ etc etc......" so readers can at leats find it by using ctrl+F and thenfinding the words.

Last but not the least why do have this "me against them" attitude??? Its like the muslims that Mr. Sina refers too. How can you change humanity when you cant even pactice wht you preach.Z2qc1

Please sign your posts
Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you!--Sefringle 17:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Always good to remind me. thanks.Z2qc1

Wikipedia has many articles.
Since you started on Wikipedia a few months ago you have only done edits related to one article !. I never actually checked until today. There are over 1.7 Million articles on Wikipedia including numerous Muslim and Islam related articles. Consider your contributions with say, Special:Contributions/Itaqallah who I have in high regard and who contributes across a wide variety of articles. It helps kudos IMHO. Ttiotsw 17:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. I appreciate it. Good we dont have rules to bann editors who show interest in only one article. Else Matt have banned me by now. Cool huh!! Titsow do you remember i had told you a few months ago that beware FF i and ali may soon begin asking for donations. Have you checked? HE has actually been asking for donations now!!! The other surprise is that i had also said that the # of members/registered user are appalling low and that after house keeping it may change drastically and guess what THAT TOO HAPPENED.......Mr. Sina has a quality of picking qoutes up from here and pasted there and say vola i am the saver of humanity. I find that very disturbing. More that that i find readers and user being beguiled by such men very very disturbing. Check some earlier one like, Osho, De jesus, Benny Hinn, Aum shriniyoko or something etc. Mr. Sina is showing 3,000 $ raised in like a week.

Well if i have become attached to this article its because of the right left and center abuse of info Mr. Sina and the worthiness of wiki being sabotaged by a few. I used wiki for a lot of initial research and to find more info via its links. All subjects i studied have had something about it on wiki. I believe such an open source for dessimination of info should not be absued like the way its been happening on the Faith F I article. Come on, its a no brainer to see that the article is only an advertisement, cross linking etc. Some editors are very naive. If given a chance they would go ahead and add a heading such as ==" Mulim dont allow Mr. Sina to defecate peacefully==" Today Ali sina sat on the toilet seat and said ugggg its tough when i am constipated. He claims that he had received email from mslims saying they wish he suffers from diarrhea. However he again proved the inexistence of god of mslims because he suffered from constipation and not diarrhea. their prayers were not answered. dear friend we can spread this far and wide so please donate to this website. (actually far and wide means 60% in the US only and the rest in europe).

I find that most of ff ayee article is filled with such information. I MEAN just compare rober spencer's article. you will see.

Next: What makes you think i am here for kudos, or earning your high regards :). Just as when i opened wiki and always found something useful to being my search with. I want others all over the world to have the same. not something like i just gave an example above.Z2qc1 20:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)