User talk:Zahra122

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Clear Lake, Iowa
Hi Zahra122, I've read your email. I dont believe i've ever read Clear Lake, Iowa, let alone commented on it so you've probably send the email to the wrong person. multichill (talk) 14:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

PM Park, Clear Lake, Iowa
Hi Zahra, I don't know much about the subject - I just copyedited the Oddfellows article. Generally it's better to send messages like this in public to article and WikiProject talk pages.

It's getting late here, but I've gone through the first section to identify any issues and do a bit of editing. The following issues spring to mind:
 * 1) Overlinking: Only link a word once. For more information on this, see Manual of Style (links).
 * 2) Heading titles: Heading titles should not contain the name of the article subject. You can probably merge the two history sections together, or if there is much more content, make subheadings. For more info, see the Manual of Style on headings.
 * 3) Formality, like "kids" instead of "children".
 * 4) Reliable sources: An interview is not a reliable source unless it has been published and available to anyone who makes a reasonable effort to find it. It's better to cite print sources.

I hope this helps. Graham 87 15:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Request for feedback
Sure. Happy to help, though I'm not sure quite what you're looking for feedback towards, so this is probably overkill, but here goes anyway:

Most of my comments refer to the structure of the article, and the content of the "History" section


 * Structure of the article
 * What is the aim (or aims) of your project?
 * What is the aim (or aims) of your wikipage?
 * You are covering at least six topics: Odd Fellows in general; IOOF in particular; Patriarchs Militant; PM Parks in general; PM Park in Iowa and its history; PM Park in Iowa and its current use. Hence, your article needs to have at least six sections.
 * The first four topics are separate topics in their own right, and deserve their own pages. There are already Oddfellows, Odd Fellows and IOOF articles, so you can refer to them, but unfortunately no articles for Patriarchs Militant or PM Parks, so you need to supply a bit more information about them.


 * One suggestion for a possible structure might want to consider
 * Opening sentence/paragraph
 * History
 * Oddfellows
 * IOOF
 * Patriarch Militants
 * PM Parks
 * PM Park, Clear Lake, Iowa
 * Current use of PM Park, Clear Lake, Iowa
 * Current owners (which also mentions their aims and use)
 * Current leaseholders (which also mentions their aims and use)
 * References and notes
 * See also

You seem to have missed quite a few things, and got some others wrong:
 * Accuracy & completeness of History section
 * Oddfellows (one word) had its origins in England (not Britain, not Europe).
 * Its origins were about workers banding together into a fraternal organisation to protect and support their "community". As a consequence, this involved taking care of the sick, the orphaned, the widowed, the aged and the less fortunate. But this was just one of the things they did as part of their fraternal goals - it wasn't their only priority.
 * As you said, "The Patriarch Militants are the uniform (uniformed?) branch of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows". However:
 * The IOOF is a 19th century American offshoot of the Oddfellows
 * Patriarch Militants are an American phenomenum; they didn't and don't exist outside of America
 * So your statement "Occasionally, a war would erupt and the men would be summoned to fight, but someone would have to stay behind to take care of the children, the orphans, women who were left alone, and the elderly who still needed care. These people were called the Patriarch Militants" is not quite accurate on a number of levels.
 * The Oddfellows looked/look after the orphans and widows all the time, not just in time of war.
 * There were/are no Patriarch Militants in England, nor am I aware of them in other countries than USA.
 * You say: "The IOOF is one of the oldest and largest fraternal orders in the world today". First, that's a rather vague statement, and second, if you are going to make statements like that on Wikipedia, WP "requires" that you back them up with references/citations. I see that you get that statement from one of the web pages you cite. So, they should have backed it up!! I think the safest thing to do is avoid sweeping generalisations altogether.

With the exception of the "History" section, I think you've done a good job. In the "History" section you seem to have missed quite a few things. Before you start editing, have a look at Oddfellows, Odd Fellows and IOOF, think about what the aim and scope of your article is, and plan a structure that helps you achieve your aims. Also, think about what level of detail you want to go to. If the aim is to talk about a park in Iowa, you would write a different article with different emphasis than if your aim was to write about the history of a park in Iowa.
 * Summary

By-the-way: I think the fact that you interviewed Cristine Bragger was an excellent idea. The current lease holder is obviously an excellent source of information about the current leaseholders and their plans. Perhaps you might wish to emphasise who she is by citing her something like: "Personal interview with Cristine Bragger, current leaseholder of PM Park, 10 Feb 2008."? Note, however, that although she's an excellent source of information about current and planned future use of the park, she's not necessarily an accurate or good source of information about Odd Fellows and Patriarch Militants, so quoting her as a source on those two topics is not necessarily a good idea (unless you supply information as to how and why she is an expert on Odd Fellows and Patriarch Militants).

Good luck, and best wishes, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

More feedback
As you can see, I don't entirely agree with slaveishly following some of the guidelines in the Manual of Style. Despite what some editors may tell you, they are not iron-cast rules, they are guidelines.

For example, in general I would agree with the general statement quoted by Graham87 - viz: ''Reliable sources: An interview is not a reliable source unless it has been published and available to anyone who makes a reasonable effort to find it. It's better to cite print sources.'' However, in this case, for information about current and planned future use of the park, you have specifically interviewed the most reliable source. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

More feedback
Hi Zahra,

I don't have much time at the moment, so I didn't check the article in depth. One major thing I found while reading the article is its use of euphemisms like "less fortunate" for poor people, and  descriptions like "in a life that didn’t offer much luck". Also, the interview you use as a source must be published somewhere, so it becomes available to anyone who wants to follow it up. All sources in Wikipedia must be verifiable, so an unpublished interview is not a valid source. Graham 87 13:52, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe for the interview, you could quote a relevant portion in the footnote. Graham 87 13:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Whoops, you had not made another request for feedback! I was checking for new email, and I'd forgotten that I had sorted my email by the name of the sender, rather than by the date it was received! Your email appeared last in the list, so I thought it was a new message. It's all good though. Graham 87 13:58, 19 March 2010 (UTC)