User talk:Zaian/Archive03

Your AIV report
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Apartheid infobox
Thank you. I take the point on too many edit summaries. I am presently in compulsive-edit rehab. As long as requests for edit summaries are not an excuse for "contributor hounds" to easily find one's edits and change them for POV reasons; substitute pejoratives for neutral terms; rewrite sentences in grammatically incorrect 2nd language English; and introduce nuances that are factually incorrect, I am happy to insert edit summaries where necessary. Zaian, if you placed your comment for NPOV reasons and are not a confederate of "contributor hounds" then I apologise for making more work for you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suidafrikaan (talk • contribs) 12:16, 27 May 2007
 * You could either assume good faith or judge me on my edits; either way I don't think you'll find I'm hounding you! There are few enough editors on SA topics; I'd hate to scare someone away if they're doing a decent job.Zaian 10:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * lol. Thank you for the assurance. I didn't think you were. Perhaps others that have made similar comments should do some soul searching.Suidafrikaan 10:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I find the Apartheid infobox a bit intrusive and too sketchy to do justice to such a complicated subject. Would a suitable category not suffice?Gregorydavid 20:02, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's rather simplistic at the moment. Hero/villain categorisations like "people for" and "people against" are probably not the best we can come up with for an encyclopedia; however, Wikipedia has a lot of quality articles on apartheid, and an infobox that brings them together seems like a reasonable idea. Zaian 06:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is why I am contributing to it. Can you make it Hide and View ?Gregorydavid 06:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I suppose so, but I don't know how. Zaian 06:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Buthelezi
I'm not at all sure why you are opposed to the label "Supporters of apartheid". He was a proponent of Kwazulu as a bantustan. His forces took part in Third Force atrocities before the 1994 elections. Perhaps the compromise position is to categorize him both as an anti-apartheid activist and as a supporter, as I have done with FW de Klerk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suidafrikaan (talk • contribs) 21:42, 27 May 2007
 * I'm opposed to simplistic and POV categorisations. In Buthelezi's case, it's not something simple which you can put a "pro" or "anti" label on. I'm no apologist for the IFP, and I accept your points, but Buthelezi's refusal to accept "independence" for the KwaZulu homeland was a major factor in the failure grand apartheid. Zaian 06:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

NPA?
Now this? 12:34, 30 May 2007 Person's talk page was in my watchlist from a previous unrelated discussion. I think it would qualify as a personal attack, perhaps I should follow: WP:NPA? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deon Steyn (talk • contribs) 12:52, 30 May 2007
 * Definitely an unpleasant taste. It's up to you if you want to do anything about it, but I would suggest not to. He would almost certainly argue that he was talking generally, not specifically. Zaian 11:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No, the entire episode has already consumed enough time and energy of all parties :-) Thanks. --Deon Steyn 12:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Young Mandela.jpg
Hello Zian, I have put back Image:Young Mandela.jpg to Nelson Mandela. I understand why you removed it, I saw the GA comments in the talk page. The fair-use rationale I have given the image should now be good enough even for GA. --Ezeu 21:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Apartheid
Hi there. I reviewed some of the discussion in the archived talk. Consensus can change. Where can we re-open a discussion on Apartheid. In particular, I would like to see it developed into an article on Apartheid and its different uses and applications that links to other articles. This would replace for example Allegations of apartheid, a ridiculously titled and content poor article. Your suggestions? Thoughts?  T i a m a t  21:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply. I'm aware of the controversy surrounding the Allegations of Israeli apartheid article. Redirecting Apartheid to History of South Africa in the Apartheid era has however, has merely shifted the debate over the meaning of apartheid to the ineptly titled Allegations of apartheid. (There is also currently an ArbComm on the whole affair; see: Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Workshop. Like it or not, there are plenty of reliable sources indicating that the use of the word "apartheid" is not restricted to South Africa. (Indeed, Separate development does not appear to much different from Hafrada.) In any case, thanks for directing me to the appropriate talk page. Enjoy your wiki break.  T i a m a t  21:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikiback
In June I decided to take an indefinite Wikibreak. At the time I was thinking of a complete wikibreak, but it hasn't quite turned out that way; I still pop in and edit occasionally, so it's now more like a long term go-slow. Zaian 21:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Apartheid
No one responded to the inquiry on the Talk page for several days. Anyway, I've looked at the history and it's over whether the article should be named "apartheid" or not. This move isn't to that title, it's just to a more succinct version of the "History of South Africa in the apartheid era" title which is really quite long for a wikipedia title. As the change has been done (and not without asking for input first) let's see if there's any serious objection before reversing it. Reggie Perrin (talk)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Bronzewolf.gif)
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African Scouting
We've been filling in and then coloring the emblems for many of the Girl Guide associations, but we still have gaps, can you think of sources? Thanks, Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 09:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Take a look at User:Kintetsubuffalo/workshop/ScoutProjectthanks for all the ones that have been added recently. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 07:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

South Africa under apartheid
As a previous contributor the discussion, please have a look at Talk:South Africa under apartheid. We need to build consensus on how to split it up, or otherwise shorten it, and your input would be appreciated. 9Nak (talk) 10:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate Image:ZimbabweScoutLogo.jpg
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Chartlon Heston image
No I have not met her. Permission was granted to use this image in the public domain. Teatreez (talk) 11:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thankyou for the help. Teatreez (talk) 15:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Nelson Mandela WP:INDIA Tagging
Thanks for reverting the WP India tag to Nelson Mandela. The reason for the Auto tagging by TinucherianBot is that the article is within an India related category of Category:Bharat Ratna recipients. Hope you dont mind our small mistakes. With such massive tagging, mistakes do happen. If you happen notice any other such errors, Kindly let me know so that we take care of it in future. Sorry for the incovieanance --  TinuCherian  (Wanna Talk?) - 13:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem at all! Regards, Zaian (talk) 13:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

South African Scout Association GA Sweeps Review: On Hold
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria and I'm specifically going over all of the "Culture and Society" articles. I have reviewed South African Scout Association and believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed, and I'll leave the article on hold for seven days for them to be fixed. I have left this message on your talk page since you have significantly edited the article (based on using this article history tool). Please consider helping address the several points that I listed on the talk page of the article, which shouldn't take too long to fix with the assistance of multiple editors. I have also left messages on the talk pages for other editors and a related WikiProject to spread the workload around some. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 00:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you
for posting the link to Lyall Watson's obituary. A small army of us has been unsuccessfully scouring the world's obituaries for days now, searching for confirmation of the initial posting and hoping that we would not find it. You have put the matter, as well as several of us, to rest. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 14:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Nelson Mandela article
First, this was not drive by tagging. What are the reasons for not including Mandela in the wiki project on Terrorism. Is the Terrorism project limited to international terrorism or post Sept 11th. Do you have a sense? If this is a broad category, I feel Mandela should be included. thanks It is me i think (talk) 15:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It was drive by tagging, in the sense that AFAIK you haven't edited the Mandela article before, and you didn't leave any commentary as to why you added this article to the project. "Terrorist" is a word to avoid, except when you can attribute it, e.g. by saying "X calls Y a terrorist".  Adding the project banner to the Mandela page appears to endorse the POV that Mandela was a terrorist.  This is simplistic and POV, and that is what I was objecting to. Zaian (talk) 18:19, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If adding someone to the terrorism wiki project implies someone is a terrorist and calling some a terrists is view as POV, then maybe the entire project is against NPOV and should be considered for removal. My take on adding someone to a particular project would allow for better collaboration on a particular article and thus improve the article.  Madela was a designated terrorists according to the US government and thus I feel should be added to the wiki project for terrorists.  It is me i think (talk) 20:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I would expect to run into opposition if there was a "Paedophilia" project and I attached its label onto biographical articles which I felt were within its scope, e.g. John Doe who was once accused of paedophilia. The Terrorist label is no different. Zaian (talk) 06:45, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I know the ANC was classified as a terrorist organization until a few months ago, and all its members (vast majority of the post 1994 South African government, and most politically active South Africans) therefore needed special permission to go to the USA (other than UN HQ in NY). I'll try to find some quotes about sabotage vs terrorism vs full out war from Mandela's Illustrated autobio. -- Jeandré, 2008-08-22t15:04z


 * Handled on the article talk page. In illustrated see from page 91. -- Jeandré, 2008-08-23t06:57z

Thanks
Hello Thanks for the heads-up. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you for opening up that discussion. I suspect it's the first time that the matter has ever been discussed, but I despair to think how few people will even know that the discussion is taking place. HuskyHuskie (talk) 13:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Nobel icon
Template:Nobel icon has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Eustress (talk) 16:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey Zaian, Thanks for letting me know about the discussion at Template talk:Nobel icon. As you may have found out, the template was deleted, but that does not prohibit the use of the icon outside of the template.  I have started a discussion at WT:MOS on this matter.  You might want to check it out.  Cheers, «  Diligent Terrier    [talk]   21:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Origin of Nelson Mandela's first name
Re being named after Horatio Nelson, Illustrated says that Mandela doesn't know why he was called "Nelson" - I'll post the full quote tonight. It may well be true that he was named after Horatio (who isn't mentioned in Illustrated), but that what he meant was that he didn't know why he was named after him. Either way, we'll need a good ref before we put the Horatio back. I'll also check for the age when he first went to school. -- Jeandré, 2008-08-22t15:04z


 * "On the first day of school my teacher, Miss Mdingane, gave each of us an English name. This was the custom among Africans in those days and was undoubtedly due to the British bias of our education. That day, Miss Mdingane told me that my new name was Nelson. Why this particular name I have no idea." - The illustrated Long walk to freedom. p. 9

Thanks for that. The full 1994 edition of Long Walk to Freedom has a slightly different text: "On the first day of school my teacher, Miss Mdingane, gave each of us an English name and said that thenceforth this was the name we would answer to in school. This was the custom among Africans in those days and was undoubtedly due to the British bias of our education." The "why this particular name I have no idea" must havebeen added in more recent editions. Anthony Sampson's biography says "Many mission-educated children of Mandela's generation were named after British imperial heroes and heroines like Wellington, Kitchener, Adelaide or Victoria, and at the age of seven Mandela acquired a new first name, Nelson, to precede Rolihlahla. 'From now on you will be Nelson,' said his new teacher. His mother pronounced it 'Nelisile'..." Zaian (talk) 20:20, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Award
Hi I wrote that sentence since I saw this in Frederik Willem de Klerk "He shared the Prince of Asturias Awards in 1992 and the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 along with Nelson Mandela for his role in the ending of apartheid.". Apparently the one who wrote that thought it was important enough to name both awards together. Still, I leave it up to you.--Jaimevelasco (talk) 12:23, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't a lot about the Prince of Asturias Award, but Mandela has won so many awards that there is a lengthy separate article listing them, and it would require some justifcation before this award could be singled out and put into the article lead. Zaian (talk) 14:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Found this:
 * September 2006 – UNICEF has been awarded the ‘Nobel Prize’ of the Latin world for its 60 years of working to save and improve children’s lives. The Prince of Asturias Award for Concord is one of the most prestigious recognitions of humanitarian achievement
 * http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/spain_35915.html


 * The ceremony attracts extensive international press, radio and television coverage and is considered one of the principal events in the European and Latin American cultural calendar.
 * http://www.scar.org/awards/asturias/


 * One of the most prestigious global recognitions of humanitarian achievement
 * http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/spain_36282.html--Jaimevelasco (talk) 20:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Nkwenkwe Nkomo
Thanks for the pic! You really took that? Cool! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 00:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What angle should I DYK? Want to help? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 11:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Done, thanks! Template_talk:Did_you_know Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 12:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Province categories renaming
The CfD has been closed, so I can't comment there, but I've made a list of all the South African province-related categories I think ought to be renamed, at User:Htonl/South Africa provincial category renaming. I've also made some comments about the tricky case of the North West on the talk page there. Please feel free to edit the list if you can think of anything I've missed! - htonl (talk) 15:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

... and I answered further, in the same section of my talk page. ☺ Coppertwig(talk) 00:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Tags
If you think that something can be added then help me improve the tags, dont just erase them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Umkhontto (talk • contribs) 07:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you read the warning notices that have been added to the images, you'll see instructions on how to respond to the concerns that I've raised. Since most or all of the images you uploaded are copyright, there isn't much chance that they qualify for inclusion on Wikipedia. Zaian (talk) 07:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

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Well done
Thanks for patrolling all the South Africa-related articles so assiduously. In particular, South Africa under apartheid, is what it is largely thanks to your efforts.---PJHaseldine (talk) 21:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Happy 's Day!
For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:Rlevse/Today/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it. — Rlevse • Talk  • 00:05, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Your comments on my proposed article
Zaian, you seem to be knowledgeable in both Wikipedia matters and South African historical/political matters, and you seem to be fairly neutral in your editorial approach. I would appreciate your comments on a possible proposed article about a survey of 100 most influential South Africans. The draft of the draft is here (combined with discussion): User:Leuce/They_shaped_our_century. -- leuce (talk) 12:05, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Matsepe Casaburri
I have seen that you have removed Matsepe Casaberri from the list of South African Presidents. Your argument was that there have been dozens of other vice presidents. But Matsepe-Casaburri and Chris Heunis are the only Acting Presidents who are included in both Rulers.org and World Statesmen.org. You have not removed Chris Heunes from the list.

I guess that the other acting presidents you are thinking about served as presidents when the ordinary president was ill or temporarily abroad. Matsepe Casaburri, however, served as president from the resignation of Thabko Mbeki on September 24, 2008 until Kgaleri Motlanthe took over the following day. I think that should qualify for a place on the list. It is an indisputable fact that Matsepe Casaburri has served as President of South Africa, although it was for a few hours, as you put it. What is your opinion?

Mbakkel2 (talk) 19:30, 2 May, 2009.


 * Thanks for discussing this. To be honest I didn't notice Chris Heunis on the list.  I suppose his acting presidency was notable because of its length (nearly 2 months) and the fact that Botha was seriously indisposed at the time due to a stroke. As you say, most of the other acting presidents have been ministers who served for a day or two while the serving president and deputy or deputies were out of the country, which is really a pro forma role and not particularly notable. In one case, the acting president (Buthelezi) wasn't even a member of the ruling party.   However, you make a valid point about Matsepe-Casaburri, backed by a reliable source :-) so I have restored her to the President of South Africa page. However I don't think she should be included in the succession order, i.e. Mbeki was succeeded by the next full president, Motlanthe, not by a pro-forma acting president. Zaian (talk) 21:28, 2 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much!

Best wishes! Mbakkel2 (Mbakel2) 8:12, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

M.J. Mahlangu
is not outgoing - see - "the National Council of Provinces, where incumbent Mninwa Mahlangu will remain at the helm as chairperson". Just thought I should let you know. - htonl (talk) 13:47, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
Wuhwuzdat (talk) 19:44, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Good job!
Good call reverting this "Erik Norgaard" and his self-promotion~ I caught him on several other sites relating to Southern Africa + California -> []Seb az86556 (talk) 13:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's almost certainly not malicious - just a new editor who isn't aware of the rules / policy / etiquette. Zaian (talk) 13:06, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

CFD
--Soman (talk) 14:19, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Numbering the presidents
I think your latest edits are the best solution. Roger (talk) 18:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)