User talk:Zargulon/Discussion on Stephen Hawking peacock tag

You placed the tag on the Stephen Hawking here, but you didn't make any notes in the text or remarks on the talk page. Is there something in particular you don't like? It has been a week and evidently nobody is able to figure out what the tag is referring to. I'd be happy to fix it if you have something specific in mind. Kafziel Talk 15:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Kafziel, I most object to "He is considered by many as one of the greatest scientists of the modern age.", which I find peacock, weasel (the ".. by many"), and non-NPOV. Also problematic is "he has had a successful career for many years, and has achieved status as an academic celebrity" which is a little bit peacock and the terms "successful career" and "achieved status" are a little vague and don't seem to add much much to the sentence. If something was done about all of those I'd be happy to remove the tag. Zargulon 15:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I agree with you on the first one. It's absolutely true, but it's unsourced, unlikely to ever be adequately sourced, and therefore weaselly.
 * As for the other two, though, there's a difference between peacock wording and simple adjectives. His career has been successful. There's nothing wrong with describing it as such. In fact, I don't think I could name a more successful physicist alive today. "Achieved status" is accurate in the context of the sentence; it's not saying simply that he achieved status, but that he achieved status as an academic celebrity. That sort of thing is noteworthy, as the vast majority of scholars are never heard of by the masses, let alone have their voices featured in a Pink Floyd song. He has an entire article devoted to his celebrity status. The sentence could be rewritten slightly, but I don't see that it's necessary.
 * By the way, I should point out that I'm quite a neutral party; I never even took physics in high school and I haven't written any part of the article. I only saw the tag in the course of reverting vandalism. Kafziel Talk 16:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no question that he *is* an academic celebrity; I never said otherwise. But it is bizarre to describe celebrityhood as something which is "achieved".. a lot of people don't want it, and there is no particular evidence that Hawking does either! And "successful career".. successful with regard to which objectives.. his own? Do we know what they are? If not his own, whose? Zargulon 17:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * For an academic, celebrity status is absolutely something that is achieved. Academics don't write books in the hope that noone will read them and they'll never be heard of; they seek celebrity for any number of reasons, first and foremost of which is to have the resources to continue their work. And he is successful by any standard you choose: ground breaking singularity proofs, bestselling books, CBE, Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at Cambridge...
 * Those examples simply aren't peacock terms; if you take issue with the semantics, that's another story. If you really want to split hairs you can always rewrite the sentences as you like, but I really don't think they call for a maintenance tag. Kafziel Talk 17:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree those examples aren't peacock terms, again, I never said they were! I was simply responding to a separate point you raised. I guess we will have to remain in disagreement on whether it is likely, let alone proven, that Hawking desires celebrity status and whether or not it is reasonable to refer on wikipedia to supposedly universal criteria for a successful career. Anyway I am removing the peacock tag now that the first sentence is gone and rewriting somewhat, feel free to revert if you don't like it. Zargulon 18:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, you placed a peacock tag and you gave me three examples. You said, "If something was done about all of those I'd be happy to remove the tag." (My emphasis.) Saying you won't take the peacock tag off until they are changed is pretty much the same as saying they are peacock words, isn't it? What am I missing?
 * Changing the "achieve" bit was okay. However, replacing "successful career" with "has been able to undertake a scientific career spanning over forty years" treads dangerously close to WP:TRITE and, in fact, is more like a peacock phrase than the original version. It's a little overblown. I'm going to pare it down a little; let me know what you think. Kafziel Talk 19:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't understand any of that but I feel the text as it stands after your most recent edit is good enough. Zargulon 19:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I know I can ramble at times. Good working with you, and happy editing! Kafziel Talk 19:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Likewise. Zargulon 19:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)