User talk:Zargulon/MCB

Discussion with Beowulf312159 about MCB proposal for genocide day

 * I removed the word egalitarian, since it usually refers to parity between people rather parity between genocides. I don't think it's necessary anyway since that sentence is perfectly non-POV without it. There is no implication in that sentence that the Muslim advisors in question had any hidden motives for making the proposal of replacing Holocaust day. It is however POV to suggest that replacing Holocaust day with a Genocide day is intrinsically fair (although that opinion is doubtless genuinely held by those Muslim advisors), so if 'egalitarian' is put back then it should be accompanied by a pov warning (as well as a source that it is the actual alleged reason given by the Muslim advisors).Zargulon 17:09, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Are you claiming that acknowledging genocide in general is intrinsically unfair, and the use of the term egalitarian is inaccurate? Additionally, if it is a view "genuinely held by those Muslim advisers", isn't it's use in that sentence accurate as well? - Beowulf314159


 * I'll try to deal with both those points.
 * My belief is that acknowledging genocide in general is an excellent thing to do and very far from being unfair. Replacing Holocaust day to do so is, in my opinion, unfair.
 * I think the sentence is ambiguous.. somewhere between tacitly acknowledging that having a genocide day instead of holocaust day is fairer, and merely saying that that was the opinion of the Muslim advisors. I would prefer it to be more explicit.
 * I'll be away for about 8 hrs. Feel free to be bold. Zargulon 17:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok - this doesn't really belong anywhere else, as I want to know your opinion. Namely, why the Jewish Holocaust &mdash; while being a horrific and monstrous event which should never be allowed to happen again &mdash; is qualitatively different than other genocides?

I do not think that recognition of the horrors inflicted upon the Jewish people should in any way be downplayed. Rather I think the horrors inflicted upon other peoples should be elevated to that level of recognition. This would, however, make the Jewish holocaust one of several such widely recognized events. This would not be an injustice to the Jewish people, I do not believe, but a restoration of justice to other people whose sufferings have been marginalized.

Do you see the distinction here? Not taking anything away from the recognition the Jewish people deserve, but giving that recognition to others who deserve it as well. - Beowulf314159 17:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't say it was. Many people do say that, but I'm not qualified to judge. What is quite clear to me, as a UK resident, is that the Nazi Holocaust (of Jews, Gypsies, gays, and others) has a qualitatively different significance in British culture to other genocides. Within living memory, a large number of British soldiers, journalists and military nurses saw these things with their own eyes which they shared with their comrades at arms, and the wider population. That is the reason that there is a Holocaust memorial day in Britain. Holocaust memorial day commemorates the victims, but it is not for the sake of the victims, most of whom perished at the time. It is a cultural phenomenon based on collective British emotional experience.


 * Muslims in Britain are mostly post-war immigrants, who did not share this experience either as victims or as liberators. Understandably, Holocaust day may not be particularly meaningful to them. However the attitude of the MCB seems to be that Holocaust day is a commemoration of Jewish emotions, or was instituted at the Jews' request. Nothing could be further from the truth; it is a profoundly British occasion, and commemorates the significance of the Holocaust to British men and women. That is, I suppose, why the MCB's stance has been so widely condemned from every corner of British society. Jewish groups have in fact been relatively forgiving. Zargulon 00:17, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer, and it's pretty much what I thought it would be. It sounds like you're saying that "this genocide over here is personally meaningful to me/us, and this one over here doesn't affect us directly so we don't count it as dearly as the one that does." That's a very human attitude, and I'm not about to say that anyone who has it should be censured for it - but I do think it's wrong. I think all atrocities should be condemned with the same ferocity of loathing. I think the Jewish holocaust should be remembered as it is - but I think so should the Rwandan, and the Cambodian genocides.Beowulf314159 00:38, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I still think you are confusing the moral dimension and the emotional dimension. It would certainly be legitimate to complain if different legal standards were used in punishing different perpetrators for the same crime, or if victims who suffered the same loss were compensated differently. It is unreasonable, however, to complain that a country chooses to commemorate its own history and not to commemorate someone else's. That is a matter of completely free choice for the country concerned. The MCB is entitled to try to influence this choice, but the British are also entitled to reject its influence. Zargulon 01:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I do not think that a general day that views all atrocities as crimes is a bad thing. I do not think that it lessens the impact of the Jewish Holocaust to acknowledge that such crimes have occurred before, and since.

And, frankly, if the particular "emotional impact" of the Jewish Holocaust can only be maintained by claiming that it is somehow "different" or "worse" or "more significant" than other genocides on the same scale (millions of people), then does it deserve that level of impact? If it gains in prominence only at the expense of denying the significance of other crimes of that type, is that just? I don't think so.

It's not an easy issue to come to terms with, but I do not believe in the denial or downplaying of any holocaust, perpetuated against any people. - Beowulf314159 00:38, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The idea that a genocide deserves or does not deserve things seems slightly strange to me. However I don't think anyone is trying to maintain the emotional impact of the Holocaust artifically. Quite the opposite, really, at least in the UK.. Holocaust day is to help people cope with something that had a great impact when it happened, not to create an impact of its own. Zargulon 01:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)