User talk:Zazaban/IAF

This is an archive of amusing debates related to Anna Quist, since the article has been deleted. Zazaban (talk) 00:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Scope
NB. This page is only covering the Southern sections of IFA-IAF, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchist_International .I have added a note on this (Anna Quist (talk) 05:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC))
 * Thanks for that Anna. What do you mean by Southern exactly? Southern Europe? Southern Hemisphere? Skomorokh  06:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The Southern IFA-federations are the ones mentioned in the article. The divide between the Northern and Southern sections of IFA-IAF is historical, and there is a conflict between these sections, see and several issues of International Journal of Anarchism. (Anna Quist (talk) 10:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC))

Note on the IFA-IAF-Wiki-page
I have added a small note on the IFA-IAF-Wiki-page about the existence of the Northern sections. It is based on reliable third party sources from the Southern IFA-IAF-federations, and should thus not be deleted. The note is also at my talk page. If anybody should propose changes, it should be discussed here, before any change. I can quote the most relevant texts confirming the affiliation of the Northern sections to IFA-IAF from these sources, if it is requested. To remove my note is history falsification. Wikipedia should not be involved in history falsification. (Anna Quist (talk) 09:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC))
 * While I can agree that Wikipedia should not be involved in history falsification, you should be aware of a couple of things. First, Wikipedia cares more about verification than truth, so, if you are more worried about the "truth", you may want to avoid Wikipedia. Someone may come along, and change or remove material you add, cite relevant Wikipedia policy, and make you angry. Murderbike (talk) 01:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The sources from the organs of the Southern IFA-IAF federations are independent verifiable third party sources, independent of the Northen sections of IFA-IAF and AI, official homepage http://www.anarchy.no. If the IFA-IAF-Wiki-page is changed, I will just repost it, because the page, with my note, is 100% according to the principle of verification at Wikipedia. (Anna Quist (talk) 12:57, 6 August 2008 (UTC))


 * Well, the joke has gone too far already. The AIF-IFA website has a link on its main page to a document where they dennounce all information on anarchy.no to be untrustworthy . The main page makes specific mention of wikipedia entries. In other words, it's easily verifiable that the official site of the federation has a prominent warning rejecting this organization. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

This so called "anorg-warning" at the un-official IFA-IAF page of the Southern IFA-IAF-federations is totally false, see http://www.anarchy.no/anorgwarning.html. (Anna Quist (talk) 14:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC))

RfC: Is anarchy.no a reliable source for IAF?
Is anarchy.no a reliable source for IAF?

It certainly is, see my talk page (Anna Quist (talk) 14:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC))

I think that the source is clearly unreliable. It also appears to be POV-pushed by the person creating the website and is rejected by many many editors, see: --Enric Naval (talk) 14:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * first AFD to delete Anna's article, closed as delete
 * ANI thread complaing of Anna's behaviour, closed as a second AFD has been opened
 * second AFD, closed as delete, decision to resalt the article
 * attempts by Anna Quist to recreate under a different name (speedied several times and finally salted)
 * comments on anarchism task force, titled "Anna Quist: making shit up?", the commenters agree
 * From the AIF website The material from powertech.no & anarchy.no is a combination of fabricated text and some text copied from official web pages., and Anna keeps quoting that material.


 * It is not true that "The material from powertech.no & anarchy.no is a combination of fabricated text and some text copied from official web pages". This wrong postulate is clearly rejected and turned down at http://www.anarchy.no/anorgwarning.html . The other things you mention is not relevant Naval, and it is done by a terrible mistake. It was mob rule. See the next chapter on easily verifiable independent third party sources, meeting the principle of verification of Wikipedia. (Anna Quist (talk) 15:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC))

Comment This has gone on long enough. Wikipedia has been very patient, yet no verifiable, reliably sourced coverage of the "Anarchist International" has emerged (listing the Anarchy.no website and offline fringe publications which no-one can check does not count). It is foolish to continue assuming good faith with Anna Quist when she has deliberately introduced obvious lies and falsehoods to Wikipedia articles in an effort to promote her organizations [sic]. Conflict of interest, clearly disruptive behaviour bordering on vandalism and repeated violation of Wikipedia policy and consensus means that we should tolerate no more of this nonsense. Sincerely, Skomorokh  18:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment I agree with Skomorokh, and invoke the anarchist principal of voluntary association in its inverse: the time has come to voluntarily disassociate from Anna Quest. I was patient after she made novice attempts to bend her behavior to the rules of Wikipedia, but the constant vandalism has finally gone too far. I call shenanigans! --Cast (talk) 18:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment I suggest you check out the forums at anarchism.net, which Anna has been harassing for over two years now. She has a total inability to accept anything that contradicts what she says, although she never presents any evidence other than the AI's website (In other words, we're supposed to take AI's word on itself and nobody else'.) She has committed more logical fallacies than the entire neo-conservative movement. Zazaban (talk) 18:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * A.Q.: What a bunch of "anarcho"capitalists and "free"market"anarchists" on the so called "Anarchism.net" says about me are just lies, and totally irrelevant in this context. Per Bylund the boss of "Anarchism.net" calls posts from organizations spam, and delete it. A very strange definition of spam... In the next chapter I have quoted verifiable third party sources, supporting my view, 100% in line with the Wikipedia principle of verification. The Southern IFA, Zazaban, etc have no verification at all for their claims. It is all based on lies and smearstories, rejected at http://www.anarchy.no/anorgwarning.html  (Anna Quist (talk) 19:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC))
 * The references you have provided are not verifiable because they are either hosted on your own website, Anarchy.no, or are in inaccessible offline sources. Skomorokh  19:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You simply prove my point. Where on earth are the verifications for what the AI says? As far as I can tell, the AI seems to think it has the power to verify itself and that anything that contradicts what the AI says is wrong, because the AI says so. That's circular reasoning, a major logical fallacy.  Zazaban (talk) 20:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * A.Q.: So real hardcopy sources are not accessible. You make me laugh. Are you nuts or something??? Have you heard about libraries, and their services? (Anna Quist (talk) 19:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC))


 * The hard copies you're referencing are not available to us by libraries. Libraries operate on budgets, and can't stock every book in the world, much less political tracts and pamphlets.  If you have access to these texts, how about scanning the pages and hosting them on anarchy.no?--Cast (talk) 19:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * A.Q.:The quotes are on anarchy.no, see http://www.anarchy.no/ifadok.html . I have not the possiblity to scan them, but I am sure you can get the CIRA library to confirm that the quotes are correct. Mail them at CIRA cira[at]plusloin.org. I can alternatively take hardcopies of the journals and send them to you by snail mail. Send me your snailmail adress at fb[at]powertech.no . We have the issues mentioned in the IIFOR archives, see http://www.anarchy.no/iifor.html.
 * (Anna Quist (talk) 20:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC))

Comment No, it's not a reliable source because of link from AIF website provided by Enric Naval. -- Vision Thing -- 15:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Quotes from the Southern IFA-IAF's own journals, confirming the Northern Sections of IFA-IAF
Here are the relevant quotes in the Southern IFA-IAF's own journals, confirming the Northern Sections of IFA-IAF. Most large libraries on anarchism, say as the IISG in Amsterdam, and CIRA in Switzerland, have these journals. Thus it is easy verifiable, meeting Wikipedia's principle of verification:

The Northern section(s) of IFA was founded at the first Nordic anarchist congress in Oslo, 15-18 October 1982. The Bulletin C.R.I.F.A no 42 novembre-février 1982 declared :

(There were a Spanish (p. 4) and an English (p. 5) report in this issue of the Bulletin C.R.I.F.A, but the Spanish version seems to be the most correct of the two, compared to the Swedish and Norwegian reports printed in Folkebladet, and other material. Thus we will quote the Spanish version here. Where the English version is more precise, this is noted in [...] brackets):

EL PRIMER CONGRESO ANARQUISTA NÓRDICO

El primer congreso anarquista nordico se ha celebrado del 15 al 17 de octubre del [19]82 en Oslo (Folkets Hus, Youngstorget). Ha estado organizado por la ANORG/IFA (Federación anarquista noruega afiliada a la IFA). Este congreso se ha celebrado según el deseo de Umberto Marzocchi, secretario de la [IFA/]CRIFA, siendo expressado en una carta el 12 de mayo del [19]82 a la ANORG. Estaban presentes los delegados de varios paises nórdicos así que los observadores de la SAC (Sveriges Arbetares Centralorganisation) ... y un representante de la Federación anarquista francesa [a delegate from the French Anarchist Federation (FAF/IFA), was also present].

El principal tema de este congreso ha sido la cooperación anarquista nórdica. El acuerdo se ha hecho sobre la aceptación de una cooperación muy ampllia. La cooperación ideológica [political] económica y cultural ha sido enfocada sobre los ountos siguientes: la acción de los anarquistas en los sindicatos, el movimiento colectivista, cooperativista, el movimiento ecologista, feminista, el apoyo a los jovenes... [politic solidarity work (for instance the Anarchist Black Cross)] y a los movimientos que luchan contra el alcoholismo y la droga. Ha sido abordado tambien todo el trabajo a efectuar concerniendo la documentación y el análisis... La meta a alcanzar es la adhesión de los anarquistas a una sección nórdica de la IFA a través de sus propios Federaciones nacionales. A este fin el congreso unánime decide la puesta en marcha de un secretariado nórdico de la IFA. Por el momento ese papel será tenido por el secretarioado administrativo [the expeditionary group] de la ANORG.... Los anarquistas que quieran adherir a la IFA podrán hacerio teniendo como intermediario el secretariado nórdico de la IFA. Estos anarquistas se encontrarán en la misma situación con respecto a la IFA que los miembros de la ANORG (decidiones, cotisaciones, etc.)

El secretariado nórdico publicará ocho bolitinos al año que serán adjuntos a Folkebladet ... o sea al boletin interior, o bién según el caso, un sepacio será reservado en sus publicaciones para las informaciones procedentes del secretariodo...

El secretariado nórdico a través del boletin deberá contribuir a organizar actividas comunes, entre otras, congresos, conferencieas, tribunas anarquistas, simposios, seminarios, encuentros estivales y actividades culturales... El secretariado deberá encargase de la coordinación de las actividades [direct actions of different kinds] nórdicas. ____ El primer número del "Boletin Nórdico" editado por el congreso, ha sido publicado en suplement del número 4 de Folkebladet (año 1982). Su título es "IFA-Solidaritet" (órgano de las secciones nórdicas de la IFA).

(The reports were signed by the COMMISION DE REDACTION DU BULLETIN CRIFA. Editors note)



The Northern sections of IFA-IAF's, and the Nordic IFA-IAF-secretariate's affiliation the IFA-IAF is also confirmed in:

Congrès anarchiste nordique et camp d'été 83, The second congress , Le Monde Libertaire, no 509 1983 p 9, French

Folkebladet, The creation of IIFOR in Norway , Le Monde Libertaire, no 591 1985 p 9, French Sacchetti ed. , The second Nordic anarchist congress, Bulletin CRIFA, no 46 1983 The relevant quotes, confirming the Northern sections affiliation to IFA-IAF are:

1. From Le Monde Libertaire p 9 no 509: "Le second congrès anarchiste nordique s'est déroulé du 10 au 16 juillet 1983 à Oslo... Cette rencontre organisée conjointement par 'A.N.O.R.G., l'I.F.A. et le secrétariat de l'I.F.A. nordique... Après un résumé, la résolution suivante fut approuvée à l'unanimité: "Les sections nordiques de l'I.F.A. adoptent comme projets: * Les résolutions du 1er Congrès anarchiste nordique, qui, sont bâtis sur les principes de l'I.F.A., et les rèsolutions contenues dans le présent rapport du IIe Congrès nordique...".

2. From Le Monde Libertaire no 591 1985 p 9: " L'I.F.O.R. (institut de recherche sur le mouvement anarchiste) a été créé comme la résultante d'une décision unanime de la N.I.F.A (secrétariat nordique de l'I.F.A.) et de la Fédération anarchiste universitaire le 15 août 1985 à Oslo. L'origine de ce projet s'inspire des principes de l'Internationale des fédérations anarchistes et du manifeste de l'A.N.O.R.G... Ce nouvel institut se situe dans la lignée du travail sur le "projet de recherches économique et sociale" mené par un groupe de l'A.N.O.R.G. (fédération anarchiste nordique)*... L'I.F.O.R. effectue également des recherches dans les secteurs de la documentation, de l'information et de l'éducation. L'institut publie un "Bulletin international de recherche sur l'organisation" et le "Séminaire d'économie politique" organise des cours d'étude à l'université et dans les grandes écoles, en collaboration étroite avec d'autres secteurs de l'A.N.O.R.G., tel le N.I.F.A., "Folkebladet" (journal de l'A.N.O.R.G.), les éditions de l'A.N.O.R.G..." *) The Northern Anarchist Confederation, NAC.

3. From Bulletin CRIFA no 46 1983 pp 9-12: The second Nordic Anarchist Congress. The second nordic anarchist congres took place on July 10th-16th, 1983. The organizer was the ANORG/IFA, associated with the International of the Federations of Anarchists and the NIFA, the Nordic IFA-secretariat... After summing up the following was unanimously approved of: The nordic sections of the IFA take as their program of further efforts: a) the resolutions from the 1st nordic anarchist congress, which in their turn are build on the principles of the IFA and the programm and decision of ANORG/IFA: b) the reported resolutions from the 2nd nordic congress. The report was read aloud and approved of on Saturday july 16th 1983.

The affiliation of the Northern sections/federations to IFA-IAF is also confirmed in a circular sent to the Northern sections: Circ. no 14, 18.12.1985, To all sections of IFA - About the IV congress - France, November 1986, from CRIFA/Sacchetti (in Italian). This was a formal, official, invitation to the IFA-IAF congress in Paris, sent to the affiliated sections of IFA-IAF, including the Northern sections, i.e. Anarkistenes organisasjon i Norden (ANORG) - The Northern Anarchist Confederation (NAC), with its four national federations, all affiliated to IFA-IAF. More information about the Northern Anarchist Confederation, NAC, Anarkistenes organisasjon i Norden, ANORG, is published on http://www.anarchy.no/anorg.html. From the most reliable source: The history of IFA-IAF etc http://www.anarchy.no/ifadok.html. There are more reliable sources... By the way the website of the Southern section of IFA-IAF is not the official website of IFA-IAF. It does not call itself official. The official website of IFA-IAF, with the original copyrighted IFA-logo on the links-page, is http://www.anarchy.no (Anna Quist (talk) 14:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC))

I have been blocked
Some ochlarchist/unscientifical administrator has blocked my account. This is a severe blow to libertarian research on wikipedia! Unblock me this instant we will be forced to try you at the International Anarchist Tribunal and you will be issued a brown card and be removed from the anarchist movement. The information I am adding is based on reliable independent third party sources, easily verifiable, and 100% according to Wikipedia's principle about verification. It confirms that the Northern sections of IFA-IAF exists 100%. This is no joke. The so called "anorg-warning you are linking to is totally unreliable and 100% a hoax, and is 100% rejected and turned down by IIFOR at http://www.anarchy.no/anorgwarning.html . If my account is blocked, it is an attack on the truth and verification

~ Anna Quist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.208.16.12 (talk) 23:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)