User talk:Zbrabs

August 2016
Hello, I'm Naraht. I noticed that you recently removed some content from Kappa Sigma without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. Naraht (talk) 21:09, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Ownership
The page on Wikipedia is a page *about* Kappa Sigma, not owned by Kappa Sigma, please read the Wikipedia page on Ownership: WP:OWN and Conflict of Interest WP:COI. I appreciate that there may be areas like the chapter listings and the current policies where your knowledge may exceed almost anyone who may edit Wikipedia, but wikipedia goes based on what is referencable, with a very definite preference toward Secondary sources (Though Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities, a tertiary source is also very useful).

I am a member of a Collegiate Fraternity as well (Alpha Phi Omega), and both declare it on my user page User:Naraht and admit to a conflict of interest when it comes to editing pages related to the Fraternity. I still have managed to add a *great* deal which is non controversial such as dates of activity and inactivity and notable members. I've also dealt with my own fraternity's PR representative. Naraht (talk) 15:35, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I am only editing it to ensure that those who do reference it receive the correct information. Not declaring ownership.  I think that as a member of a fraternity you can understand why it is important that this page is up to date.  None of the edits I am providing are a conflict of interest except the "controversies" which are incorrect and that is why I removed them.  I would appreciate if you stopped undoing my edits.
 * Regardless, you still have a Conflict of interest, whether as an elected/appointed national officer or an employee. The appropriate thing to do given this Conflict of interest is to suggest changes on the talk page for the article Talk:Kappa Sigma and have another editor unrelated to the subject, make the changes. This would be similar to if the person in charge of PR (or for that matter any employee) of K-mart wished to change the article.
 * As for the controversies, they are referenced to mainstream newspapers and make easily verifiable claims. For example, in the death of Nolan Burch, what do you disagree with in the statement made in the article?
 * As for Social, the categories for the Type entry in the Infobox were decided on in discussion a while ago. More or less any group in the first two sections of the most recent copy of Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities would be simply listed as Social, putting Kappa Sigma, Delta Gamma and Delta Upsilon, for example, in the same category. See Template:Infobox_fraternity Naraht (talk) 16:17, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but I know for a fact that many users edit pages that they are interested in. I am going to keep making edits to the page to reflect the most accurate information.  I have mostly just changed branding elements such as the crest and colors, etc because I'm not just an employee, I'm a brother and it's offensive when the wrong crest, colors are used.
 * The article is wrong because it was not during an initiation or any other fraternity function. We had already closed the chapter prior to his death.
 * And if that's the case, then why is Pi Kappa Alpha listed as Secret/Social?
 * Yes, they do. They declare that there is a conflict of interest *and* if reverted, allow for a third party to look at it. What was wrong with the Crest? For the colors, does the Fraternity have an offical RGB value for the colors? (That definitely counts as non-controversial). Do you have a reference for the date of the closure (something like a fraternity magazine would be fine). Did the news organization that it is referenced to ever do a retraction? Pi Kappa Alpha also should be fixed.Naraht (talk) 18:43, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The Crest was updated in 2015 and has a number of corrections. It is the only version that is supposed to be used. And yes, the fraternity does have an official RGB value for the colors and that is what I changed them to. And no we don't publish that information.
 * That's fine. While descriptions of the changes to the Crest/Coat of Arms might be appropriate, unfortunately, including a Crest that isn't currently the representation of the group doesn't meet the Non-Free rules for images. I missed the change to the RGB, a reference there to a style guide would be appropriate. How is a brother at a chapter in California supposed to find out that a chapter in Maryland has been declared inactive/closed etc.?


 * The crest I uploaded is currently the representation of the group. And we didn't announce it, nor do we publish our branding guide.  We have always had official colors and the branding guide and other elements of our branding are available to our members through an app where they can also check on chapter statuses.
 * That's fine, Alpha Phi Omega changed our Coat of Arms pretty early in our history. While references which require travel to see or payment are still acceptable, I don't see how the Kappa Sigma app would be useful in giving a contrary reference. I take it that also means that the list of Kappa Sigma chapters (or at least their statuses) would also be unreferenced? (See WP:REF)


 * It isn't useful, I was simply saying that because that is the only place that information is published. As for the Nolan Burch case, here is an article that cites us revoking the chapter on November 10, his incident occured Nov 12, and he died Nov 14. It also cites it as a "Big/little event" not an initiation ceremony.
 * http://www.wvgazettemail.com/article/20150211/DM01/150219833/1277
 * Excellent. I need to head home now, but that's about as good as you are going to get, I think. Let me think about it...Naraht (talk) 21:47, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm changing University of West Virginia to West Virginia University.Naraht (talk) 15:31, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Motto & the discussion.
I'm also curious as to the fraternity's position on the Mottos. Based on various sources, two mottos are included: Bononia Docet ("Bologna Teaches") and A.E.K.Δ.B. there was a user about 3 years ago would deliberately took a username equal to what he said A.E.K.Δ.B. stood for. He was *quite* annoying, continuing to try to add that information to the article, until I believe he was eventually banned. So while that supposed information does still exist in the Wikipedia user talk archives, the location is certainly not obvious. As I said, I'm also a member of a Greek Letter Organization that does have private information, so I understand exactly how far it can be stuffed away within Wikipedia's rules.Naraht (talk) 16:06, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Kirjath Sepher
See Talk:Kappa_Sigma for previous research on this. (Yes, I was the one to do the research, I admit). The 1898 Baird's is one of the places to start (https://books.google.com/books?id=SVMPNd0AefUC&pg=PA143) I can see tweeking the description of this slightly, but I don't have a clue what would be an appropriate opposing reference to *the* reference for Fraternities published 100 years ago.Naraht (talk) 18:57, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


 * That reference is not to be used and I would appreciate if you kept it that way. It violates our secrets.
 * I don't see any way under the rules that Wikipedia operates under to do that. You may want to ask on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities or one of the options on Dispute resolution, but I don't think you are going to have much luck given both the reference to Baird's and to the Fraternity's own newsletter (The Kappa Sigma Quarterly, volume II, issue 2, page 45-47 History of Zeta chapter by S.A. Jackson). I'll help you with the options, even though I don't think that you'll have much success.

Orphaned non-free image File:Kappa Sigma Fraternity Crest.png
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Orphaned non-free image File:Kappa Sigma AGC Logo.png
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Orphaned non-free image File:Kappa Sigma Fraternity&#39;s Champion Quest program.png
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Orphaned non-free image File:Kappa Sigma Fraternity&#39;s Military Heroes Campaign.png
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