User talk:Zenadix

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Hi Zenadix, Can you please help me to resolve this issue about the changes that I made on Wikipedia's Catholic Church page? When you created the talk post on this page, I don't think that you were aware of the fifty sources that I had previously cited? Will you please help me to refer this matter to the proper authorities so that we can get a ruling on it?

Please read the updates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_the_Catholic_Church ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.204.252 (talk) 11:08, 7 October 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.204.252 (talk)


 * Hi Zenadix,
 * Thank you for your response.


 * The beginning of the article reads, "According to tradition, the history of the Catholic Church begins with Jesus Christ and his teachings (c. 4 BC – c. AD 30) and the Catholic Church is a continuation of the early Christian community established by Jesus."


 * I made a change by removing the preposition "according to tradition"

thereby allowing the passage to read, "The history of the Catholic Church begins with Jesus Christ and his teachings (c. 4 BC – c. AD 30) and the Catholic Church is a continuation of the early Christian community established by Jesus."


 * This is what the hoopla is all about.


 * Can you please explain to me how this somehow changes the meaning of the first line of the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.204.252 (talk) 05:15, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

72.208.204.252 (talk) 05:34, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * "Tradition" is, by the definition employed here on Wikipedia, "a belief or behavior passed down within a group or society with symbolic meaning or special significance with origins in the past." So the phrase "according to tradition" makes a rather important difference to the meaning. 50 sources seems a little overkill when 5 would have done. You threatened to go through them one-by-one challenging me to show how they do not support the proposed changes, as opposed to it being your responsibility to show that they do. To avoid the bother I suggested that you "go ahead and make those changes again" (I wonder if this wasn't your intention?). I did not mean that I agreed with those changes, I apologise if you were led to that conclusion. Citizen Canine (talk) 06:59, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Citizen Canine, you wrote, "Tradition" is, by the definition employed here on Wikipedia, "a belief or behavior passed down within a group or society with symbolic meaning or special significance with origins in the past."


 * If you quote the passage in it's entirety "Tradition" is, by the definition employed here on Wikipedia, A tradition is a belief or behavior passed down within a group or society with symbolic meaning or special significance with origins in the past.[1][2] Common examples include holidays or impractical but socially meaningful clothes (like lawyers' wigs or military officers' spurs), but the idea has also been applied to social norms such as greetings. Traditions can persist and evolve for thousands of years—the word "tradition" itself derives from the Latin tradere literally meaning to transmit, to hand over, to give for safekeeping. While it is commonly assumed that traditions have ancient history, many traditions have been invented on purpose, whether that be political or cultural, over short periods of time. Various academic disciplines also use the word in a variety of ways."


 * The next paragraph reads: "The phrase "according to tradition," or "by tradition," usually means that whatever information follows is known only by oral tradition, but is not supported, (and perhaps may be refuted) by physical documentation, by a physical artifact, or other quality evidence." Tradition is used to indicate the quality of a piece of information being discussed. For example, "According to tradition, Homer was born on Chios, but many other locales have historically claimed him as theirs." This tradition may never be proven or disproven. In another example, "King Arthur, by tradition a true British king, has inspired many well loved stories." Whether they are documented fact or not does not decrease their value as cultural history and literature.


 * Regarding your answer to the question that I posed to Zenadix:

If the preposition "according to tradition" is absolutely necessary, and apparently it is because each time I tried to delete it someone put it back; then wouldn't it be the responsibility of those who required the preposition to be a part of the sentence in the first place, to document and provide sources that show why this preposition is absolutely necessary in this sentence? Further, how should we go about explaining away what the second paragraph of the "Tradition" article states about tradition in bold letters?


 * I concur with your next comment, "So the phrase "according to tradition" makes a rather important difference to the meaning."


 * If, (the phrase "according to tradition" makes a rather important difference to the meaning) and (The phrase "according to tradition," or "by tradition," usually means that whatever information follows is known only by oral tradition, but is not supported, (and perhaps may be refuted) by physical documentation, by a physical artifact, or other quality evidence), then why is there a consensus by Wikipedia editors to leave it in?


 * I suppose we can edit, censor, obscure, and silence what the Wikipedia articleTradition says about what tradition is, in order to contradict this point that I have raised.


 * I must caution you though, that if we are to embark on such a mission to obscure historical truths and historical facts in order for it to fit our narrative, we will be embarking on a very steep and dangerous slippery slope which will surely arouse indignation for all of Wikipedia and its editors.


 * Hello Citizen Canine,
 * Indeed, it was my intention to,"go ahead and make those changes again", immediately following our dialogue. Unfortunately, because of Wikipedia's WP:EDITWAR policy I was forced to wait the time stipulated in the policy to make the changes. While waiting, I was threatened and bullied not to make the changes (please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ad_Orientem).  As a result, I will continue my dialogue with the hopes that you, or someone else reading this, will make the changes on my behalf.  Additionally, and for the time being, I would accept Zenadix's compromise at the beginning of this thread, "I agree that the original wording is preferable, and would support reverting back to it. Alternatively, a compromise solution would be to change it to something like "The Catholic Church is a continuation of the early Christian community established by Jesus Christ" or "The Catholic Church traces its history to Jesus Christ and the Apostles", which could potentially satisfy everyone. — Zenadix (talk) 05:10, 25 September 2018 (UTC)."


 * What Church is this wikipedia article referring to?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Church

72.208.204.252 (talk) 08:37, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

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