User talk:Zleitzen/Archive 5

Archive 5

Vilma Espin
It strikes me - should we really include her second surname in the article name ? She is normally just referred to as Vilma Espin. -- Beardo 02:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Beardo it is most appropriate to include her last name as it links her to her family history a matter of some importance in Latin America where even the communists have genealogical concerns. As to her betrayal of Frank Pais and if memory serves of others I think that needs to be known. El Jigue 1-2-07


 * EJ - I am not saying exclude her second surname - just don't include it in the title of the article. -- Beardo 02:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Beardo I agree then, Vilma should have an article of her own, for she as much as any other was responsible for Castro's rise to absolute power. In my view a kind of wicked witch of the west type mention. Eva Braun, Dolores Ibárruri (La Pasionaria) and Rosa Luxemburg do so why not Vilma. The article needs balance and to mention the nasty things she did such as her "accidental" phone call that betrayed Frank Pais. This is also said mentioned in Robert Freeman Smith (The Hispanic American Historical Review, Vol. 55, No. 3 (Aug., 1975), pp. 585-586) but as yet I have not read this. Vilma naturally blames someone else. There is also juicy gossip that she seduced somebody and then yelled rape, to get rid of another rival. This is from memory but I will try to get citations. Jose Espin her father hid some of the Moncada attackers in 1953 (The Cuban Insurrection, 1952-1959. by Ramon Bonachea, Marta San Martin p. 52). Nilsa Espin, her sister, was murdered or commited suicide in Raul Castro's office in 1969. Vilma is said to be one of the most corrupt among the Castro elite in Cuba and it is alleged that her brother left Cuba to live the life of a millionaire in Ecuador. El Jigue 1-2-07

In Karol, K. S. (Translated from the French by Arnold Pomerans) 1970 Guerrillas in Power. The Course of the Cuban Revolution. Hill & Wang New York. (A review is available in Hispanic American Historical Review, 51, (4) (Nov., 1971) pp. 670-674. This author was educated as a communist and it shows.  However, Footnote 113 pp. 173-174 demonstrates the struggle for power between Guevara and Frank País, and can be taken to suggest that the Guevara and Raul used Vilma Espín for their purposes.  And this also demonstrates Guevara over weaning ambition in that despite his Argentine accent which would have given him away as soon as he opened his mouth in Santiago de Cuba) he wanted to be Frank País’ s replacement in “El Llano.” Footnote 114 on p. 174 ends with”…On the day of victory the human material was politically immature, even on admission of many veterans, and this explains why so many guerrilleros later defected.” In other words El Llano rebels were not communists nor were most of those in the Sierra; thus by definition sooner or later they would be candidates for purges by Fidel, Guevara and Raul. El Jigue 1-3-06

Z: You might want to look at the topics I have been raising in Vilma Espin discussion. El Jigue 1-6-07

Thanks
Thanks for reverting vandalism on my talk page. --Qyd 14:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Cuba edits
You do a good job keeping up with the Cuba-related edits. Thought I'd tell ya. takethemud 16:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)takethemud

Editor Help
Hi, I've reached an impasse with another editor on the Oliver Kamm page and would appreciate a third party opinion. Thanks.Felix-felix 10:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Will do Felix. But beware. If memory serves me, a friend whose opinion I value discussed a book written by Gilad Atzmon which he described as outrageously anti-semitic, and virtually the rantings of a madman. Incidently, the same friend later provided me with David Edwards and David Cromwell's new book "Guardians of Power", and thus is well versed in all the matters at hand. I'd also be loathe to present anything that showed the odious Socialist Worker Party in an improved light. As for the absurd Kamm, I believe he was banned from editing this site, or at least an editor showing all the hallmarks of Kamm was banned, for repeatedly editing his own article.--Zleitzen 12:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Ambassador to Cuba
See my reply. •DanMS 04:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Christmas Greetings
Merry Christmas my fellow Wikipedian Zleitzen. Yours truly GoodDay 19:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for help
I noticed that you were instrumental in bringing a recent article to FA status. I have been trying to get the Ohio Wesleyan University article to FA status. One of the critical areas for the article that remains an issue is copyediting and prose. I was wondering if you might be willing to help me in this area? I'd greatly appreciate it! Thank you. WikiprojectOWU 22:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Christmas wishes from Miami
And a Merry Christmas, to you too, Z. And all the best for the coming year. -- Beardo 06:04, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Feliz Aňo Nuevo
Hello, Zleitzen. Many thanks for the Christmas greetings! As you may have noticed, I have decided to celebrate the holidays by taking something of a wiki-break. (Must confess I am really enjoying it.) I wish you and your family health, happiness and continued success throughout the new year!! -- Polaris999 07:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I too will be seeking a break from activities, Polaris, perhaps more permanent in nature. I see Jmabel has entered semi-retirement, and the unwelcome return of an editor - whom I am not ashamed to say I believe is the worst and most ungracious editor on wikipedia - to Cuban articles, leaves me with the feeling that I'm too old to be dealing with such people. I just thank the heavens that in the real world I am still able to engage with archivists, historians and people with some nouse about the issues at hand. It seems a lot more preferable than talking turkey with American undergraduates at this place, regardless of how ungracious that may sound itself. I hope I've managed to present a more nuanced and detailed picture of Cuba on various articles and I've put myself to good use. And I'm glad that my pet project reached featured article status. I'll be following developments on citizendium, which if it goes as planned, will hopefully mean an opportunity to re-engage in a generally enjoyable enterprise without having to deal with various lunatics and the plain ignorant on a regular basis. Thanks for all your help and I've very much enjoyed your excellent input which is always of the highest standard.--Zleitzen 15:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I swear, we need some admins that are actually willing to do something about problem editors. We are losing far to many good people because of it. Anyway, I really do hope you decide to stick around for a bit at least. There is so much more work to be done on Cuban-related articles and to be quite honest because of the political situation in Cuba there is extreme partisanship from both sides that tends to make editing such articles a difficult task. I find you to be one of the few rational people whom I find editing such articles and losing that will be a big loss. Anyway, happy new year.--Jersey Devil 08:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Z: One of the best references on the bloody failure of the Guevaran approach to guerrilla warfare in Guatemala is: Le Bot, Yvon 1997 La guerra en tierras mayas (War in Mayan Lands). Fondo de Cultura Económica, Mexico D.F ISBN-10 9681645375, ISBN-13 978-9681645373

or if you prefer it in French: Lebot, Yvon 1992 La guerre en terre maya: Communauté, violence et modernité au Guatemala, 1970-1992 Editions Karthala. Paris ISBN-10 286537369X, ISBN-13 978-2865373697

Although this book gives too much credence to Rigoberta Menchú at the time it was written Menchú's little changes to history were not well known.

El Jigue 1-2-07

ps Happy New Year

Z: You might want to look at some of the topics I have been raising in Vilma Espin discussion page. El Jigue 1-6-07

Charles Magoon
You added the ref to Cuba: The Pursuit of Freedom on this page. I've fleshed it out to use the cite book template and found the ISBN number, but can you check and fill in the edition of the book you have (from which you pulled the page numbers), so that they match up? I assumed first edition, but I could be mistaken. JRP 22:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * ah, ha, Cuba topic, so Zleitzen is involved :-) I think he's taking a bit of a wiki break.  I've also been experimenting lately with Diberri's ISBN finder, and I can't make that ISBN work there - I admit ISBNs are Greek to me, but you can play around with Diberri's tool (click on the ISBN drop down) to see if you can find something.  Saludos, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 22:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The tool may be somewhat borken. It comes up in ISBNdb, which is (according to the text) the data source for that tool. JRP 22:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not surprised - have had many problems with Diberri's tool, but it's helpful with PMIDs. Regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 22:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Z: I have added the following to the discussion of the Escopetero article:

Fabio Grobart
A mayor éminence gris of Cuban history is best known as Fabio Grobart (although his original name is Polish). His importance in founding the Cuban (Stalinist) communist party is/was(:>) recognized by Fidel Castro:

Castro, F. 1965 (accessed 1-9-07) Pursc Central Committ Presentation, Havana's Chaplin Theater -Havana Domestic Radio - Speech Report_Nbr- Fbis - Date- 19651004 -Text- Castro Refers To Cuban Refugees, Guevara ,

the Rand thinktank [www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/2006/RM4994.pdf],

and Jewish History experts: Asís, Moisés 2000 (accessed 1-8-07) Judaism in Cuba 1959-1999 ICCAS Occasional Paper Series,. “By 1925, there were 8,000 Jews in Cuba (some 2,700 sephardic, 5,200 ashkenazic, and 100 Americans). Four ashkenazic Jews were in the small group that founded the first Communist Party of Cuba in 1925: Grimberg, Vasserman, Simjovich aka Grobart, and Gurbich. They opposed the religious and community life of the other Jews.”

Evidence has been presented to link Grobart to the Leon Trotsky assassination, and less strong evidence to the Julio Antonio Mella assassination.

Although the party Grobart helped found was not the first Cuban communist party, it is considered as such by the present Cuban government.

His son(?) Fabio Grobart Sunshine has a number of publications and is highly placed among the Cuban Nomenclatura.

I am preparing a major footnote in my book on Grobart and I am will to share some (but not all (:>) citations) to this major figure in Cuban history. Could somebody be so kind as too open such an article El Jigue 1-12-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 19:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Hello EJ. I'm at present fairly disillusioned with the process, therefore I'm not editing at the prolific levels I was last year. What may interest you is the important role of Spanish anarchists in the period which saw the rise of Grobart and others, many of whom were later deported by Machado. I remember you have written about the lack of coverage of Grobart here in the past, Good luck with your research.--Zleitzen 02:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Z: Thank you. You might also consider Italian Anarquists who were active in Cuba since at least the 1895-1898 war. I have been scanning an Orestes Ferrara book which is on line (Ferrara y Marino, Orestes. 1975 Una mirada sobre tres siglos. Memorias. Playor Madrid ISBN 84-359-0119X)) it is found a site which puts old Cuban books on line (many of which I read with some distaste, but then reading Cuban government produced books is even more distasteful).  The main site is, and the Orestes Ferrara book of interest is found at .  Unfortunately this book is in a pdf form that my computer finds unsearchable, so I must use the index and read it all.  In one of the later chapters Ferrara talks about how he maintained links to his former anarquist coleagues.  The book amazingly enough narrates events up to the 1960s, and although it glosses over the author's ties to Machado, he has a certain view which might be called arrogant independence. The long introduction by CArlos Marquez Sterling is most informative. Thus this books is well worth reading as are others at this site, even if one. as in the case of the Batista volumes, finds the authors views distasteful. El Jigue 1-13-06

Celia Sanchez photo
Wandering through the web a photograph of Celia Sanchez (which I assume given the source is in the public domain) it shows the Che but it also shows a quite different Celia Sanchez profile (my memory of faces is not that good). The interesting thing about this Celia profile is that it shows her clearly to be of a least partial Taina inheritance (whether this is a deliberate propaganda distortion I do not know). this is found at: Martínez Crespo, Xurxo 2004 (last accessed 1-13-07) Manolo Ponte Regueira “Duende”, a sombra galega de Fidel Castro en Caracas en xaneiro de 1959 A Coruña, 15 de marzo de 2004 Still given where Celia was born and grew up this is very possible. El Jigue 1-13-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 16:21, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

Talk:Havana Club Question
Thanks for your vote in Talk:Havana Club. However, as I have stated, for a 'support vote there are three options as stated in the poll question, but you didn't answer which option you prefer-- I suppose you'd support option 1 (move away Barcadi only), but if not, plus clarify at your vote, thank you. --Samuel CurtisShinichian-Hirokian-- TALK · CONTRIBS 12:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Fabio Grobart article
Z: Perhaps you have time to glance at the new Fabio Grobart article. El Jigue 1-13-06


 * Good work EJ. That's an article that had been waiting to be written for a long time. Though I was surprised to read mention of Star Trek in the article!--Zleitzen 00:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Z: Thank you. I did quite a bit more then took a rest from Fabio Grobart, to work on something else. You may want to take another look at it. Thank you. BTW If you are not a trekkie you might want to watch re-runs of "Deep Space Nine," the complexity of the tailor-spy Garak tells you that he is a composite character taken from real life. Besides there are quite a number of followers of this program in the computer world and in fiction who recall such, e.g. John LeCarre's "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" El Jigue 1-14-06

Fidel Castro dying
It seems finally clear that Fidel Castro is dying after a series of failed gastro-intestinal operations .El Jigue 1-16-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 14:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

Z: inconditional Castro partisans are attacking on a wide front from Cuba to Che Guevara. l Jigue 1-18-07

Z: Norseman's deletion of Miami Herald sources still stand. Frankly this points out one of the greatest weakness of Wikipedia: contributors with strong feelings and not necessarily the most accurate information prevail. "The good are without will and the bad full of passionate intensity." we are way back to 1917 El Jigue 1-19-07


 * I think the links themselves were actually dead EJ. The Herald archives pages after a few months and the website address changes. Though the concept of not using the Herald at all seems simply impractical.--Zleitzen 00:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Omar Bakri Muhammad
This is English Wikipedia, not British English Wikipedia. KazakhPol 00:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see Manual of Style which states: "'Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the usage and spelling of that country.'"--Zleitzen 00:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The last time I checked Bakri is not in the UK. KazakhPol 00:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Bakri was a British citizen, spent most of his life in Britain, is a known figure in British public life and has had no association with the United States. Which is probably why another user was as surprised as me when the spelling was reverted three times by you to United States spelling from British/International English without any justification and against policy. --Zleitzen 00:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Adminship?
Hi, I've been considering nominating you for adminship on Wikipedia. Would you object if I nominated you for adminship?--Jersey Devil 08:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the endorsement Jersey, though I don't think I have the patience for all the grief that seems to follow the role, and I imagine I've made more enemies than friends at this place to pass the stingent review process! More urgently, having successfully submitted yourself to a peer review, it would seem right that you should be up for adminship.--Zleitzen 23:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh, I actually was up for adminship a while ago (last July) in Requests for adminship/Jersey Devil.--Jersey Devil 02:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Bay of Pigs
I'm curious why you removed the following paragraph from the Bay of Pigs Invasion article?

''The reaction of some of the American combat pilots when Kennedy canceled the planned air attack can be seen in this quote from the book Nicaragua Betrayed by the former President of Nicaragua Anastasio Somoza Debayle. "In the meantime, the U.S. aircraft carriers stood off Cuba and never launched their fighters. One fighter squadron, VA-34, known as the 'Blue Blasters,' did get airborne but was prohibited from engaging the enemy. It has been reported that some of those American combat pilots were actually in tears. All was in readiness, but at the last moment, orders came from the White House to cancel fighter support for the invading [exiled] Cubans. Only President Kennedy and his brother, Bobby, knew why this decision was made. It was a U.S.-planned and U.S.-financed operation and, in the end, it was a U.S. decision that led to disaster for the invasion force and permitted Castro to remain in power." '' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Misbach (Misbach)

Therefore I consider the quote to be misleading to readers. Bear in mind that I have no interest in protecting the reputation of the Kennedy administration, but rather, would prefer the article to reflect the multitude of research by leading historians. --Zleitzen 08:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Not cited.
 * 2) Contrary to popular thinking, Kennedy didn't cancel air strikes. The option of airstrikes and direct US involvement was not on the table and had been dismissed long before the invasion - see extensive writing on the Kennedy administration, Bay of Pigs invasion and declassified records.
 * 3) Somoza is simply not an appropriate source. A brutal figure bitterly resentful of both the United States for apparently betraying Nicaragua, and Cuba. His statement "Only President Kennedy and his brother, Bobby, knew why this decision was made" is hopelessly ahistorical. Records which would show this to be hollow and false rhetoric are freely available from all sides.


 * Anastasio Somoza was a staunch anti-communist, a graduate of West Point, a General, and a President. He was not bitter towards the U.S., he was bitter towards the President.  He was a friend of America, educated in our schools, who spoke perfect English, and had helped with the Bay of Pigs invasion, but who was betrayed by the Jimmy Carter administration during his country's bloody fight with the Communist Sandinista invaders, armed and trained by Castro. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Misbach (talk • contribs) 20:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Right, OK. Whether the charming Mr Somoza was betrayed by Jimmy Carter and was therefore unable to protect Nicaragua from those "communist invaders" as you call them - the Sandinistas - or not, his claims concerning the Bay of Pigs invasion were erroneous and are not really serious enough to be on the page. Again, Somoza's analysis "Only President Kennedy and his brother, Bobby, knew why this decision was made" contradicts extensive coverage of the detailed decision making process in Washington, where numerous advisors, planners and analysts were involved. Consider that Bobby Kennedy was barely involved in any decision making regarding the Bay of Pigs, only after its failure did he adopt the central role he was to have during the missile crisis. Which is why, alongside the fact that his quote is not sourced anyway, the section was removed from the article. I suggest rexamining the period, reading established historians, and examining the declassified records to establish the story of Washington and the Bay of Pigs. All should be freely available. --Zleitzen 00:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Z: I have heard this before from sources far more savory than Somoza, when I run into a citation will place it here. El Jigue 1-27-06

Charles Magoon
Thanks for your kind words. I'm happy this is over and have been working on some other Spanish-American War-era articles that I can try and advance to FA. So many wonderful stories and biographies of people very important and notable in their day, but someone forgotten. If you have some suggestions, please let me know. JRP 06:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Purges
The article states; "Guevara conducted a series of purges of those he viewed as unreliable or not appropriately ideological" The source provided is Jon Lee Anderson. Checking the appropriate pages of his book, it seems to me that it would take a leap of logic to describe Anderson's description in the terms laid out above. For instance, one of the page numbers given in the our reference list (p.279) refers to the murder of René Cuervo. He was executed by Guevara's forces for "victimizing an entire section of the population of the Sierra, perhaps in collusion with the army. In view of his status as a deserter, the trial was speedy". This case is typical. I have read nothing in those citations that imply that people were executed for being "unreliable or not appropriately ideological". --Zleitzen 15:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Of the other page citations given, p264 doesn't refer to executions, p269 refers to Guevara sending his men out to track a deserter with orders "to kill him if they found him". p269 refers to an attack on enemy chivatos and Guevara's orders to kill Cuervo if found. --Zleitzen 15:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Z: the orders were carried out and Rene Cuervo was killed. The motive behind this killing was apparently to take the money Cuervo was bringing in from the folowers of the now dead Frank Pais and from Cuervo's parents. As to Cuervo and the others being "bandits, chivatos etc, etc." all we have as evidence are the Che Guevara's words, repeated by Anderson. In the Sierra the word was that Guevara had killed Cuervo,"por que el le hacia sombra." You are just going to have to await the documentation in my book El Jigue 1-21-07

There is an academic reference at which supports at least in part what I stated previously about the Che's purges in the Sierra. El Jigue 1-21-07


 * I have read Julia Sweig's book and used it as a reference before, EJ. I highly recommend it if you haven’t seen it, as it covers a lot of the Frank País arena. Though I don't remember reading anything about Guevara murdering the non-ideological in the Sierra, nor does she detail any of the rumors you have discussed concerning País's death. Given that Julia E. Sweig is one of the leading historical authorities on the Cuban revolution anywhere, and has written and spoken about events in much detail many times, perhaps you could contact her with these revelations and perhaps, oversights.--Zleitzen 14:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Z:What Sweig does mention as I have repeatedly is the tension between Frank Pais and the Che was serious, a number of others (such as Huber Matos) have commented on this. However, the most revealing details are from verbal histories, which will appear in my own book, as will other views of betrayal of Frank Pais. Dunno if it is useful to filter personal memories through the mind of an academic who was not there. Still it is not scholarly to take without reservation words of accusation from the Che's own writings. El Jigue 1-22-06


 * Indeed EJ. If you take a look at this paragraph I added to Che Guevara's involvement in the Cuban Revolution here I have attempted to convey both the differences between Guevara and the other groups, and some of the self-serving issues with Guevara's memoirs. This is taken from Swieg.--Zleitzen 16:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Z: The one who really knows is Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo (El Mejicano, El Mexicano, The Mexican, there are others who also use this knickname) who served with Guevara. Jon Anderson mentions Guevara, pardoning Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo, but this seemed to be because Guevara could not field a fighting force without him after these purges. Perhaps I owe my life to El Mejicano. However, he is hard to get hold of (I believe he contacted me under a pseudonym but refused to go into further detail since then I could have identified him). He crops up in unexpected places on the web, such as in the endless discussions on plots to kill JFK (I think that accusation is invalid and may have been fabricated by Fabian Escalante and that against Rolando Masferrer (El Mejicano defected instead, somebody else got El Tigre).  The last I heard of him was years ago something to do with gambling and gamecocks and possible involvement in crime in south Florida. Anybody who makes contact has access to a goldmine of information.  Sporadically I keep trying to find him but given what I owe him do not want to place him in jeopardy.  El Jigue 1-22-07

One should keep in mind that Sweig had access to Cuban government sources, a privilege only given to those who favor the Castro government (see

Inside the Cuban Revolution: Fidel Castro and the Urban Underground.(Book Review) The Historian - June 22, 2004 Luis Martinez-Fernandez

Word count: 924. citation details

Inside the Cuban Revolution: Fidel Castro and the Urban Underground. By Julia E. Sweig. (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2002. Pp. xv, 254. $29.95.)

This review starts “Few, if any, t.....”

but the critical part of this review is:

"The bulk of the documentary evidence sustaining the book consists of hundreds of documents housed at the Cuban Council of State’s Office of Historic Affairs, which the Cuban government made available to Sweig while keeping the archive’s doors closed to other researchers. This valuable and fascinating collection of documents allowed the author to paint a well-documented and nuanced perspective on llano- sierra relations as well as on how the leaders of the 26th of July Movement related to other anti-Batista figures. These sources are complimented by much of the extant historiography on the insurrection and around twenty interviews that Sweig conducted in Cuba. Although the able use of the Council of State’s documents stands as one of the book’s most salient contributions, the admittedly sanitized nature of the document collection and the author’s failure to interview voices beyond those loyal to the Castro regime produces a somewhat distorted picture of the events and a more favorable portrayal of Castro. The correspondence between Castro and former president Carlos Prío Socarrás, for example, which was withheld from the author, would have most likely exposed the politiquero (politically opportunistic) side of Castro. Contrary to Sweig’s conclusion that Castro was opposed to politiquería, while scolding Hart and others for overtures to Cuba’s politicians, three years earlier he had maneuvered to secure for himself Havana’s mayoralty in exchange for supporting Justo Carrillo, leader of the Agrupación Montecristi, who at the time appeared most likely to emerge as the post-Batista leading figure. Likewise, had Sweig interviewed and/or used sources written by key protagonists who are not Castro supporters such as Colonel Ramón Barquín, Eloy Gutiérrez Menoyo, Carlos Franqui, Huber Matos, and Gustavo Arcos, to name only five, she would have produced a more accurate and balanced view of the Cuban insurrection. Unfortunately, such manifestations of Miami-phobia plague much of the scholarship on Cuba. Despite these problems in terms of the selection of sources, Sweig’s book is an important and useful contribution for the understanding of the struggle against Batista.

Rutgers University Luis Martínez-Fernández "

El Jigue 1-22-07


 * Very good EJ. By the way, I've been meaning to read Carlos Franqui's book for a while. Do you recommend it? One major consideration that I have to bring up concerning various rumours is this: Guevara's animosity towards certain individuals and groups is well known, but would Celia Sanchez and others really continue to show such genuine affection for Guevara, if it was the case that Guevara had been involved in the death of various underground figures including País? It seems unlikely. Likewise the old Camilo rumours. If Castro was somehow responsible for his death, Guevara - who worshipped Camilo - certainly never thought so, as is evident from his continued devotion to the old fox after the events. Occam's razor seems appropriate to apply to these matters and it seems simpler than these rumours imply, I fear that we are heading too far into the murky world of George Smiley :>)--Zleitzen 00:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Z: The trouble with that argument is that Vilma Espin's telephone call was the trigger for Frank Pais's killing. As to the argument that Celia would have objected does not consider how deeply she was in love with Fidel Castro. Besides it would not be Fidel, but Raul and the Che...... Fidel Castro has always "hid his hand" when murder was done,he learned to do that when a student at Havana University. Then there is the mystery as to why did Vilma's sister kill herself in Raul's office. One has to look at the series of betrayals of rivals of Castro to Batista killers, even though the only one I know to be extremely well documented is the betrayal of the palace attackers in Humbolt 7 by the high level communist Marquito..... One should be aware that most historians do not have a history of involvement in these bloody details and often, unconsciously view the actions of revolutionaries as if it were a mere faculty  fight over office space or such. A far more realistic and rational approach would be to consider that murder and betrayal are a "Modus Vivendi" (sarcasm intended) among hardened revolutionaries and only those who have gone through such (e.g. "George Orwell) really understand that. Thus it is equally erroneous to assume innocence as to postulate guilt in these matters.  All hardened revolutionaries involved in the Frank Pais matter, especially Raul and Guevara are known to have killed openly on other occasions.  One can get and idea of what this means considering the case of Universo Sanchez shooting and killing a communist bureaucrat who refused him a milk ration, and only getting house arrest. BTW I will get to Franqui later.  El Jigüe 1-23-07

A most useful reference in his regard is:

Grossman, Dave 1996 On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society. Back Bay Books (Little, Brown and Company) New York ISBN 0316330116

El Jigüe 1-23-07

An even more critical review is found at El Jigüe 1-23-07

Recent minor rebellion
Illustrating the point of the difficulty of obtaining information from Cuba is the following matter I recieved by e-mail today:

"It is common to read that nothing is happening in Cuba, as Fidel Castro, seems to be dying. However, this is not exactly true, what is more appropriate is to say no news of rebellion reaches the outside world. For instance here is a description (footnote 1) of a minor rebellion among army recruits, which involved an escape and a relatively large military operation to capture them. The rebels are expected to be shot......." [16] El Jigue 1-24-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 20:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

Religion in Cuba
I inserted this note in the Cuban article discussion:

The present article is so bland and kind to the past and present circumstance of religion in Cuba, that it bears revision. A good starting point might well be: Super, John C., 2003 Interpretations of church and state in cuba, 1959-1961. Catholic Historical Review, Jul 003, 89 (3)511-529.

A friend of mine excerpted the following from this article: “ Then in the fall of 1959 Raúl Castro disbanded the Comandos Rurales (Rural Comandos), a group formed in February, 1959, to promote community development in the Sierra Maestra.( n26) By the end of the year, the regime also made efforts to control the Central de Trabajadores de Cuba (Cuban Labor Confederation), purging from its ranks members of Acción Católica.( n27)” “The Church took the offensive when it organized the Primer Congreso Católico Nacional (First National Catholic Congress) in Havana on November 29, 1959. Some one million Cubans crowded the Plaza of the Revolution to attend Mass and to hear denunciations of communism.” “As resistance to the revolution became more difficult within Cuba, forces organized outside of it, culminating in the Bay of Pigs invasion of April 17, 1961. Much attention has been given to the three Catholic chaplains who accompanied the expeditionary force, which lent it the air of a crusade. Castro's reaction could be interpreted as a counter crusade. Widespread arrests, imprisonments, and expulsions followed on the heels of the invasion. The government arrested bishops, shut down La Quincena, the last Catholic publication, closed the offices of Acción Católica, and created a general climate of intolerance. More Catholics now believed that the struggle went beyond politics and involved the very survival of their faith.( n49)” Increasing confrontations hardened the relationship between the church and state, and contributed to discrimination, intimidation, insuits, sabotage, and much more.( n50) Even Cubans returning to Cuba from the United States in 1961 were filled with propaganda against the Church. In the summer of 1961, the widely read Spanish author José Maria Gironella sat on the deck of the Guadalupe as it steamed toward Havana and watched Cubans reading in Cuba Nueva stories about "nuns who killed children, about cardinals given over to orgies, and every time it referred to Spanish priests in Cuba, it called them 'Falangist clergy.'"( n51) Stories such as these fit very well with the government's emphasis on popular education to mold attitudes and beliefs. This was the education of home and office, of ballfield and beach, and it was an education that criticized religion and the Church.” “) The final blow came in May, 1961, when the government took over all remaining private schools, both parochial and non-parochial, and then closed them, displacing some 100,000 students.( n54)” ’ Events surrounding the feast day of the Virgen de la Caridad del Cobre in 1961 also help to explain the historiography of the revolution. The Virgin of Charity of Copper, a figure as celebrated in Cuban history as the Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexican history, continues to influence Cuban identity, despite the efforts of the revolution to minimize her importance. Castro refused to allow the Church to celebrate the feast day on September 8, but did grant permission for September 10. When the procession left the church, the police and their supporters attacked it, wounding ten and killing Arnaldo Socorro, a young student. The following day the government claimed that Socorro had been killed by "falangist priests" bent on destroying the revolution. The government buried him as a hero, claiming that "reactionary priests" continued to serve the interests of "Yankee imperialists."( n57) The war of violence and propaganda would continue.” El Jigue 1-26-06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 19:31, 26 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Great quotes and sources EJ, certainly should be incorporated into the Religion in Cuba page.--Zleitzen 14:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Signing Posts
Hello, Zleitzen. I've noticed 'Little Joe/EJ's IP address page, is being peppered with 'sign your posts' advice from HagermanBot. Hope 'Little Joe' agrees to those instructions. Hopefully his 'not signing posts' doesn't lead to blocks. GoodDay 22:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Aureliano, thanks for your concern. In my view the "robots" attention is kind of touching. BTW I left at note on the Che Guevara page discussion which reads:

Guevara and executions
Fuentes, Norberto 2004 La Autobiografía de Fidel Castro. Destino Ediciones. Barcelona, Editora Planeta Mexicana, Mexico D.F. ISBN 8423336042. ISBN 9707490012 pp. 695-696 Lists four "traitors" secretly executed before the Granma left Mexico these were Jesus Bello Melgarejo, Arturo Avalos Marcos, Cirilio Guerra plus a fourth unnamed individual. One was said executed by Raul Castro. This leaves three who could have been executed by the Che. Now I do not completely trust Fuentes as a source, not because he does not know, but because he follows "line" that is suspiciously closer to the present Cuban government official dogma than I would like. BTW on page 692 Joaquin Ordoqui, is quoted as saying the Antonio Blanco Rico, Batista's chief of Military Intelligence (who was assassinated in Havana before Castro landed in 1956) was a member of the Cuban Communist Party. This can be taken to suggest that the Cuban communist party as usual was playing both sides of the fence. On page 696 this author states that Guevara was in Mexico for two years and three months which is sufficient time for quite a lot of things. El Jigue 1-27-07


 * Thanks again EJ, more food for thought and this information has been noted. Apparently, the graves of those executed in Mexico remain to this day. I understood those executions to be the responsibility of Fidel's "council" and I might be wrong but at least one of these men was executed by Fidel himself. I'm not sure if Guevara, who was not yet an integral figure at that time was directly involved. This would be an area that I imagine Polaris would have some further details on.--Zleitzen 19:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

It would seem that Fidel Castro has never been reported to carry out a murder personally, attempted murder yes in his student days, but not successful killings. Thus if this could be documented it would be of singular interest. Now Raul had no problems with this and neither did Guevara. One must be aware that at the present time Raul according to some reports is trying to shift all blame on Guevara, and thus present himself as "clean." Raul could be expected to have difficulty with this since his killings are well documented. One wonders if the bodies in Mexico can be dug up, bodies buried on beaches might be "lost." Still the present Mexican Government might be interested... According to word of mouth (oral tradition) Guevara had a grave yard, which was called "La Hortaliza" which could be anywhere along the main ridge of the Sierra Maestra, and from below the heights of El Oro on the upper Bayamo River to perhaps at la Pata de Mesa below Las Minas de Frio. At least some of Fidel Castro ordered execution were said carried out in a small valley labeled "Puerto Malanga" near the heights of La Plata (Castro's main "Comandancia"). Other reported execution sites include the Universo Sanchez's comandancia at Pe~na Prieta, and some at Fidel Castro's last rebel headquarters at the sugar mill "Central Oriente." El Jigue 1-27-07.

Health care redux
There are two articles in the Miami Herald to day on heathcare in Cuba, one of them takes the official data as approximately true placed on the "front page," while the other more carefully examines this data. It might be wise to accesss them now. "Un dia sin sol naci..." Marti's birthdate. El Jigue 1-28-06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 15:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Thanks yet again EJ, good articles indeed. I'm limiting my activities at the moment (though I am tempted to improve the article on the Cabildos where your help would be invaluable). But as per usual all your sources and comments remain on record and will be incorporated in some fashion. I know that the Health stats are a regular bug bear of yours. Of course, the stats are massaged (as they are everywhere in the world) and there appears to be some serious issues that the government are obviously reluctant to export. Also, I like the authenticity of Hilda Molina and have quoted her on a few articles on wikipedia. As far as I'm concerned, she is the essential, credible, critical voice to counter the official stories that pour out. I tried to base criticisms of the healthcare system around her writings on the healthcare page, but it got bogged down and submerged by a load of silly baloney from the US government that an editor repeatedly foisted on the page, which stank to high heaven and actually detracted from the key specific criticisms. It left me disillusioned with the whole process. Of course, Hilda will always be remembered for being at the centre of the storm that sent Castro into that one rage too far!!!! I recall your words having viewed the infamous balconey clip, noting that Fidel had finally lost all control of his senses. Only a few days later he had lost control of his bowels. Eek!--Zleitzen 04:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Z: Thank you for your kind words, will visit Cabildos article soon. Just to keep you in the loop the item below was posted previously to the Guevara discussion:

new details on Guevara
There is a new reference (unfortunately for some in Spanish):

Arzuaga, Javier 2006 (accessed 1-29-07) Complete Radio interview on executions in la Cabaña in 1959 and related topics interviewed by Guillermo Toledo and others on El Programa Radial Magazine Cubano on 12-17-06. Transcript from ContactCuba. Com

This reference has a number of odd spellings (e.g. Autilio instead of Eutimio) however, it contains novel information such as the execution of the killers in the Humbolt 7 murders, an event we know now to have been triggered by a communist party informant ("Marquito" I think). While the death of Ariel Lima a 16 year old, and anti-Batista resistance activist, who had turned informer to avoid the rape of his mother, was immediate. This together with such known Guevara acts as keeping BRAC files secret, strongly suggests that the Che was interested in "whitewashing" communist party's colaboration with Batista by informing on other resistance leaders. In addition the previously cited attribution of communist party affiliation (by Fuentes) of Colonel Blanco Rico the head of Batista Military Intelligence (SIM), also detracts from the credibility of details in Guevara's accounts of the war against Batista, and can be taken to suggest the possibility of bias beyond that of an expected military leader's self-serving statements. Another interesting statement found in this reference is the suggestion that partisans of Raul Castro are at present trying (as mentioned before) to burden Guevara with Raul's own actions. There is reference to Arzuaga's new book "Cuba 1959: La Galera de muerte" which I have not yet read. El Jigue 1-29-0617:54, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (most odd all I did was put in tildes)

Manuel Artime Buesa
Filled in a little on Manuel Artime page

Manuel Artime Buesa (29 January 1932 - 18 November 1977) , joined with Castro rebels in late 1958; was a Cuban soldier in the United States. He led the Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961.

Hunt (p. 47) places Artime in 1958 with as a member of Castro forces at Guisa, Maffo and Palma Soriano actions. This is credible since he acted in military capacity during the Bay of Pigs Invasion. He had a degree in Medicine and perhaps served as a medic since rebel losses in those actions were not negligible. After the war against Batista was over he became an official in the INRA (Instituto National de Reforma Agraria), in the Ciro Redondo (that would include Agua Reves where Ciro Redondo was killed on the main ridge of the Sierra Maestra) and as such implies what Hunt says is true. A devout Catholic apparently he was involved in an early (January 26) agrarian rebellion of Catholics (Comandos Rurales)in that area where he met Comandante Sori Marin and Rogelio Gonzalez Corso (see Pedro Corso p. 14).

Corzo, Pedro 2003 Cuba Cronología de la lucha contra el totalitarismo. Ediciones Memorias, Miami. ISBN 1890829242

Hunt, E. Howard 1973 Give us this day. Arlington House, New Rochelle, N.Y. ISBN-10 0870002287 ISBN-13: 978-0870002281 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 23:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

El Jigue 1-29-07

Z this is a revised version, I would appreciate it if you addressed the obvious flaws in my writing El Jigue 2-1-07\:

Wikipedia revised

Manuel Artime Buesa (29 January 1932 - 18 November 1977), joined with Castro rebels in late 1958; was a Cuban soldier in the United States. He led the Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961. Hunt (p. 47) places Artime in 1958 with as a member of Castro forces at Guisa, Maffo and Palma Soriano actions. This action at Maffo may well have placed him in contact with Rebel Lieutenant Cipriano Beatón Martínez (see last plate in the Dickey Chapelle’s 1962 book labeled “La Maya Oriente Province Cuba, December 1958 Lt. Cypriano…” Cipriano was executed for rebellion against Castro June 15th 1960, Corzo p. 36).

After the war against Batista was over Artime became an official in the INRA (Instituto Nacional de Reforma Agraria), in the Ciro Redondo district (that would include Agua Revés where Ciro Redondo was killed on the main ridge of the Sierra Maestra) this was agrarian Zone then under the direction of of Comandante René “Bujero” Vallejo and as such implies what Hunt says is true. A devout Catholic apparently he was involved in an early (January 26) promoting Catholic style (e.g. small holdings) agrarian reform (Comandos Rurales) in that area where he was in contract with Comandante Humberto Sorí Marin and Rogelio Gonzalez Corzo (see Pedro Corzo p. 14). Both Sorí Marin and Rogelio Gonzalez were captured on the eve of the Bay of Pigs Invasion and executed on the 20th (Corzo p. 92; Ros pp. 181-185 and others).

Hunt’s assertion that Artime participated in actions against Batista is credible (although denigrated by Cuban government partisans ), since he showed courage during the Bay of Pigs actions,. He had a degree in Medicine and perhaps served as a medic during the war against Batista since rebel losses in the above mentioned actions were not negligible.

Artime was said to have been the civilian leader of Cuba if the Bay of Pigs Invasion had succeeded was not among the civilian leadership held incommunicado 17th to 20th of April 1961 at Opalocka Florida until the invasion failed (Ros, pp. 252-253). He landed as leader with the expedition and was captured after two weeks, and is maligned by Cuban government supporters e.g.. He lead several expeditions against Castro after that. He died of cancer November 18th 1977, he was 45. The circumstances of his premature death are considered unusual on both sides of the Florida e.g. Straits, , , but to date such comments are commonly considered speculative.


 * Good work EJ. I've put it on my watchlist and will hopefully put some additional work in when time allows. The page has reminded me that there is no article yet on Manuel Ray who seems to be a character most worthy of inclusion. --Zleitzen 00:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the editing of Manuel Artime article
Z: Thank you perhaps a Humberto Sori Marin might take precedence over Manolo Ray. What are your thoughts on the matter. BTW an appendix to this Enrique Ros book pp. 287-298 gives the names of Bay of Pigs veterans who became officers in the US Army in Vietnam, these names include 6 colonels, 19 Lt Colonels, 9 Majors, and 29 Captains. El Jigüe 2-2-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

Ultramarine.
I see that you too have come across him and his systematic botchering of articles. As a fairly inactive member on the English Wikipedia I do not know what ways there are to reach a consensus, such as a mediation group as on other language versions. Do you know of any ways to prevent him from deleting any content he dislikes else than restoring it and continuing the endless circle that almost can be seen as edit warring? --Nyp 16:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Sexual objectificcation
I submitted a photo to sexual objectification of women in panties heels and nothing else vacuuming; it's of a fashion show by Imitation of Christ, a well-known label. Several editors want NO images on the page, but I think this one is pretty clear: at a fashion show, these topless models vacuuming in heels shows women objectified sexually. Could you interject with your opinion please? Talk:Sexual_objectification--DavidShankBone 04:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Soviet Advisors to Cuban forces
Z: I have added this section to Bay of Pigs Invasion

(Saw some comments that might be inferred to sully my El Jigue persona (:>), wish people who write them would have experienced those days in Cuba and/or had read more Cuban history.)

Castro militia, artillery, and intelligence service were trained and directed by Spanish speaking Hispano-Russian officers, by Raul Castro's admission these were necessary to field a regular army ; the most senior of these were Francisco Ciutat de Miguel, Enrique Lister, and Alberto Bayo (Paz, 2001, pp 189-199). Ciutat de Miguel (Masonic name: Algazel; Russian name: Pavel Pablovich Stepanov; Cuban alias: Ángel Martínez Riosola) is said to have arrived the same day as La Coubre explosion and was wounded in the foot during the War Against the Bandits, the type of wound that is common to senior officers observing combat at the edge of effective rifle range. Date of wound is not given in references cited,. This wound may have been received during the action blocking the Escambray mountains during the Invasion.

Since the Raul cite is from 2006 it could be taken to suggest that Raul is trying to diminish his elder brother's habit of taking all the credit. After all it was Raul who brought the Hispano- russians into Cuba in 1959-1960.

Che Guevara was in Oriente Province lured away by Nino Diaz’s feints. El Jigue 2-5-07

de Paz-Sánchez, Manuel 2001 Zona de Guerra, España y la revolución Cubana (1960-1962), Taller de Historia, Tenerife Gran Canaria ISBN 8479263644 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 22:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Z: remember no good deed goes unpunished, the deed itself is its own reward. El Jigue 2-5-07208.65.188.149 00:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Cuban Healthcare
I see that this article seems to be being mangled by ultramarine again-should we organise more resistance against this again?Felix-felix 14:31, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It's just a mess, Felix. Even small things like the editor in question repeatedly stubbing the lead down to 1-2 sentences against style guidelines - without any explanation - grates. I find collaborating with this editor to be by far the single most depressing and demeaning experience I have had at wikipedia. And I'm far from alone in thinking this, virtually all collaborators appear to come away with the same sense it seems. As I have stated before, one of the worst aspects of that article is it actively obscures the serious criticisms of Cuban doctors who have sacrificed their careers and more to highlight specific issues with the system.
 * I don't think organising resistance is really in the spirit of the process, but then, this editor's whole demeanour appears to be one long edit war over many pages for years and is itself the antithesis of the wikpedia process. Recently a link on the page, which informed the readers of the advances made in Cuba during the 19th century against yellow fever, went dead. So the editor arbitarily removed a whole uncontroversial paragraph which detailed this. With no discussion, without even adding "source needed", and with no attempts to find alternative sources for the well covered topic. It's typical and unsurprising. Numerous articles have been choked into a collection of badly worded arguments and incoherent fragments by this editor, with eccentric POV forks and bad writing all over the place. By the way, when editors point out the failings of these methods, they are accused of conducting an "ad hominem attack" and of having "lost the argument"! I'm too old to debate on the level this user inhabits in the first place, that I have done so leaves me with no sense of pride. But its a shame to see work go down the pan at the hands of such relentless counter-productive editing and wilful belligerence. --Zleitzen 15:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Z: this kind of nonsense is one of the main weaknesses of Wikipedia. Just today an uniformed contributor removed all mention of Hispano/Soviet involvement in the Bay of Pigs Invasion article; I and apparently others restored it; however, I am sure that this restoration will not last. El Jigue 2-7-07208.65.188.149 19:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Francisco Ciutat de Miguel
Z: Working on Francisco Ciutat de Miguel former officer in the Spanish Civil War, who when to Russia and was trained and apparently fought as a general in WW II, in Cuba he was responsible for repressing the resistance he named bandits in the War Against the Bandits he was wounded there, and also was the top hispano/soviet officer during the Bay of Pigs Invasion. There are a number of citations I left at the Bay of Pigs Invasion site. Apparently most have not heard of him but he played an extremely important role in Cuba, as confirmed even by Raul Castro. Could you start a stub on him..... El Jigue 2-7-07208.65.188.149 19:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Good work EJ. Be careful with those citations though, and try to apply them as per Citing sources and then you'll have nothing to worry about. This is something I haven't heard before so I will be interested to read what you have discovered. By the way, I've found a link to watch segments of Andy Garcia's movie The lost City set in Havana 1958. Take a look before it gets pulled if you have a moment, I haven't watched it myself yet, but it caused a storm and was banned in parts of Latin America for its anti-Castro and particuarly anti-Guevara stance, so it may be a movie that you could enjoy with relish!--Zleitzen 06:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Z: Yes that is a most interesting movie. although the locations chosen, diminish its impact, for instance the Dominican Presidential Palace is much smaller than the one in Cuba. Thus the intensity of the assault on the palace is diminished by the loss of scale. Given the complexity of the Cuban circumstance the characters are from composites taken from real life. As to the banning that is most interesting. Which LA countries' governments did that? In reference to the sources for Francisco Ciutat de Miguel the most complete was the scholarly 2001 book by Paz-Sanchez "Zona de Guerra", and since his role in Cuba was diminished in official circles until FC passed from power in the last six months, I was forced to balance that with recent web citations from Cuba, and left wing cites of Spanish origins e.g. Staff of Memoria Republicana (accessed 2-4-07) Francisco Ciutat de Miguel. 2.1- Galería de militares republicanos en la GCE (I) Memoria republicana, these sources frequently do not mention his role in Cuba, although his military training in the USSR is well documented. Now I am working on Francisco Ciutat de Miguel's role during the "War of the Bandits." As you are probably aware, this would be a synopsis of part of a larger work of mine in preparation and this may be the first detailed mention of Ciutat de Miguel's role in English. I was also intrigued by Pavlov's use of tanks durante the Spanish Civil War and his untimely end in 1941 during one of Stalin's purges. El Jigue 2-8-07208.65.188.149 20:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Reports say the movie was simply banned in "South American countries" . I added the fact to the Guevara page some time ago, alongside some quotes from Andy Garcia about his views on Guevara's darker side. Regarding the ban, I smell a rat though, and have a feeling that the movie simply wasn't released in the region - and that factoid is misleading or false. It got little coverage in the US, and no release at all in Europe. The portrayals were more sympathetic than I anticipated. And the historical overview seemed fairly reasonable, particuarly by Hollywood standards. But I was confused by the implication that the attack on the Palace was a noble assault by Cuban liberals, whilst M-26-7 was an organisation of meddling ideologues. That would seem to be perhaps too broad and misleading a generalisation. Although the narrative was very much Garcia's POV, it seemed to be the best effort to depict these events from a genuine historical perspective I have seen in a movie. I believe the Dominican Presidential Palace was also used in Godfather 2.--Zleitzen 23:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Z: You may well be correct since at that time El LLano part of M-26-07 was essentially liberal and middle class, historians are beginning to view that it was not the ideologues who did most of the action..... One of the interesting obscure matters surrounding the attack on the palace (perhaps the subject deserves its own article) is the presence in the palace of a US citizen bodyguard/telegraph operator (I know this first hand since he told me, still so far my memory refuses to yield up his name). However, Batista does acknowledge his presence as do several other sources but his name is never given. The person in question, was tall, and lean and thus although also a judoka could not be Morgan. El Jigue 2-10-07208.65.188.149 20:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)208.65.188.149 20:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Bay of Pigs air support
Here it comes again

Ruy Lopez writes in discussion of Fidel Castro:

"I removed the sentence "President Kennedy had withdrawn support for the invasion at the last minute by canceling several bombing sorties that could have crippled the entire Cuban Air Force" and someone re-inserted it with a reference to a rambling article on a far-right wing web site. An article which of course gives no references to first-hand accounts, documents etc. about this, we just have to take the word of a conservative named Humberto Fontova.  But beyond this, Fontova doesn't say anything that supports the idea that Kennedy withdrew support that had been pledged, canceled sorties that had been scheduled and so forth.  Fontova's article does not fall under the Reliable sources category, but more importantly, Fontova is not even a source for the allegations made.  This is being remove again. Ruy Lopez 12:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)"

This my response to Ruy Lopez:

"Wow!!! First you label Fontanova as "far-right" then you remove any reference to his cite. Following that reasoning, all the material from the Cuban government, which by definition is "way far left" must be deleted also.  Please reverse your actions.  If you prefer other references use participant/author Lynch, Grayston L. 2000 Decision for Disaster: Betrayal at the Bay of Pigs. Brassey’s Dulles, Virginia ISBN 1574882376 pp. 75-81, El Jigue 2-10-07 208.65.188.149 16:57, 10 February 2007 (UTC)"

One can be reasonably sure that "Ruy Lopez" will not reverse his actions, even if I present a dozen references to President Kennedy's actions as Commander in Chief. Any suggestions as to course of action. El Jigue 2-10-07208.65.188.149 20:11, 10 February 2007 (UTC)208.65.188.149 20:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Z: Thank you very much. Still I do not know how long this correctoion will hold. Inserted the following in the discussion:

Z: Thank you. However, Arthur Schlesinger was a strong partisan of Kennedy, and it is clear that the US Naval forces at the scene were prepared to fight, only the Commander in Chief could give the order to countermand the planned secondary strikes (see Lynch reference above). Additional extremely well documented information with photographic evidence is provided by Enrique Ros (Ros, Enrique 1994 (1998) Giron la verdadera historia. Ediciones Universales (Colección Cuba y sus jueces) third edition Miami ISBN 0-89729-738-5 pp. 190-193) in which the US Coast Guard is shown cutting out the weaponry of independent exile support boats in Miami at the time of the invasion. In addition, the Nicaraguan airforce was denied refueling facilities in the US to support the invasion (Somoza-Debayle, Anastasio and Jack Cox 1980 Nicaragua Betrayed Western Islands Publishers, pp. 169-180 ISBN 088279235), knowing Somoza, as suspect as Castro in this regard, one worries about veracity. However, first hand witnesses on both sides point out that was a defecting Nicaraguan fighter pilot Carlos Ulloa Rauz, flying for Castro was killed after sinking the supply ship Rio Escondido, at the time (Lagas, Jacques 1964 Memorias de un capitán rebelde. Editorial del Pácifico. Santiago, Chile, p. 104 and Somoza-Debayle, and Cox p.177). Thus the Lynch and Ros postulate that Kennedy deceived and dumped the exile force seem inescapable. One proof of Lagas authenticity is his note that Orlando Lara Batista the famous escopetero who supported Cienfuego en “el llano” was then sidelined as a “interventor” in a panty factory (Uloa p. 146) El Jigue 2-11-07208.65.188.149 16:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Combat pilots during Bay of Pigs Invasion
Z: Thinking of as section on pilots who flew combat during Bay of Pigs Invasion

Aviation is commonly considered the deciding factor in this battle. Although Cuban pilots fought combat missions as early as WWII most Cuban pilots from the Batista era were in jail or in exile. Some Castro pilots Alvaro Galo (fired his rockets into the water p. 93)and Willy Figueroa were jailed for cowardice (see also p. 04), for not flying B-26 (Lagas p. 60); Evans was accused of poisoning and also jailed p. 89. There were the Alabama National Guard pilots that died (have the list somewhere). The Castro force pilots included Carlos Ulloa Rauz who was Nicaraguan (see above), Jaques Lagas (B-26, from Chile), Alfredo Noa died in battle in a plane piloted by Luis A. Silva Tablada (ibid p. 61) who was also killed (ibid p. 63). Of course Rafael del Pino (p. 64); de Varens died in a B-26 accident in Camaguey (p. 90). Laga p. 78 lists dead fliers as: Noa, Silva, Ulloa, Martin Torres (killed p. 97), Reinaldo Gonzalez Calainada (killed p. 97), and Orestes Acosta (Santiago T-33). On page 81 Lagas mentions Enrique Carrera Rola (T-33) and Gustavo Borzac (Seafury, who did not fire his rockets p. 98). On page 82 mentions 16 enemy planes, presumably B-26; p. 88 mentions Castro pilot Alberto Fernandez (T-33). Juan Suarez Plaza (B-26 p. 109) Ernesto Carrera is mentioned as flying a Seafury (p. 108),and as an Nicaraguan (p.137); seafuries were also flown by Castro pilots including Douglas Rood and Sanchez de Mola see Lagas p. 59). Lagas (p. 121) mentions he is the only B-26 pilot left on the 19th of April. Eight Castro pilots survived, only one from the B-26 (p. 141). El Jigue 2-13-07 208.65.188.149 22:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/KazakhPol
Hi - my reading of RfC is that you have to choose EITHER "Response" OR "Outside view". Please check the lead paragraph for "Outside view" for confirmation. SmithBlue 22:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Omar Bakri Muhammad
Thanks for the last edit - the wording was a remnant of an earlier version I reverted to before I began rewriting. The current introduction is much better than anything previously, and more of the article is cited. Unfortunately, I hope you realize, the article still violates WP:BLP in three or four places. I am trying to fix this right now. Regards, KazakhPol 23:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Garion96's RFA
Thank you for your support in my request for adminship which closed successfully last night. Feel free to let me know if I can help you with something or if I have made a mistake. I would also like to encourage you to vote often (just in case you don't) on other candidates since we need more admins. Happy editing, Garion96 (talk) 23:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Insertion of Air Action
I have inserted Air Action== which although it provides much greater detail does overlap with some of the other sections. Is it wise to make this a separate section and just provide a link? El Jigue 2-15-07208.65.188.149 20:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Air action
Aviation is commonly considered the deciding factor during the Bay of Pigs Invasion. The first airplane of the Cuban Armed forces was obtained in 1913; Cuban pilots, such as Francisco Terry Sánchez and Santiago Campuzano fought combat missions as early as WW I. The 1931 Gibara landing against Machado was defeated in great part by Cuban Aviation. However, by the end of January 1959 most Cuban pilots and support technicians from the Batista era were in jail or in exile.

During the Bay of Pigs invasion, the first Cuban exile attack with B-26 left Castro forces with "two B-26C, two Sea Furies, and two T-33A at San Antonio de los Baños Airbase, and only one Sea Fury at the Antonio Maceo Airport" and two of the attacking bombers were damaged

Some Castro pilots Alvaro Galo (fired his rockets into the water Lagas p. 93) and Willy Figueroa were jailed for cowardice (see also ibid p. 04), for not flying B-26 (Lagas p. 60); Captain Evans was accused of poisoning crews and also jailed (Lagas, p. 89).

Castro force pilots included Carlos Ulloa Rauz who was Nicaraguan; Jaques Lagas who flew a B-26 and survived is from Chile'  Alfredo Noa died in battle in a plane piloted by Luis A. Silva Tablada (ibid p. 61) also killed (ibid p. 63). Of course Rafael del Pino (ibid p. 64). de Varens died in a B-26 accident in Camaguey (ibid p. 90). Laga (ibid p. 78) lists dead Castro fliers as: Noa, Silva, Ulloa (also p. 104), Martin Torres (ibid p. 97), Reinaldo Gonzalez Calainada (ibid p. 97), and Orestes Acosta (in Santiago flying a T-33). On page 81 Lagas mentions Enrique Carrera Rola (T-33) and Gustavo Borzac (a Seafury pilot, who did not fire his rockets, ibid p. 98).

On page 82 Lagas mentions 16 exile planes in first attack, presumable B-26 bombers. Kraus mentions eight B-26 piloted by Cuban exiles. Lagas (p. 88) mentions Castro pilot Alberto Fernandez (T-33). Juan Suarez Plaza (B-26 ibid p. 109) Ernesto Carrera is mentioned as flying a Seafury (ibid p. 108), and another Nicaraguan (ibid p.137); Seafuries were also flown by Castro pilots including Douglas Rood and Sanchez de Mola (Lagas p. 59). Lagas (p. 121) states he was the only B-26 pilot left on the 19th of April. By April 21 ten of twelve exile B-26B had been destroyed, this seems to have been when the four US pilots (Alabama National Guard pilots?). replacing exhausted Cuban exile pilots were killed. Eight Castro pilots survived, only one from the B-26 (Lagas p. 141).

There are problems, for instance the reference:

Klaus, Erich 2003 (accessed 2-15-07) Cuba Air Force History. Aeroflight Countries of the World. http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/americas/cuba/Cuba-af-history.htm

mentions Mirage Jet fighter in Angola where there were apparently none:

e.g. "The MiG-23MLs consider that the first Mirage has been shot down and attempt to pursue the fleeing Mirage, but they had already reached the limit of their fuel supply, and had to head back to base"

this and other material in his paper suggest that he is uncritically accepting Cuban Government material. However, the material on this matter is difficult to obtain, El Jigue 2-15-07208.65.188.149 21:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

South African army veterans of this action state that this source vastly exaggerates events. They talk about air strikes on one buffel and several ratel armored cars, not tanks, a few dead but losses light and very little damage to the area. Ground troops did not reach area for several weeks El Jigue 2-16-07208.65.188.149 15:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Z: More material added today to this and other sections. Please check. El Jigue 2-16-07208.65.188.149 19:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Administrator
Are you an adminastrator? if not could you ask an admin what happens if no one votes for you as an admin if you are running for one? Do they automatically become one? For some reason there are techical problems with the list of admin page. my computer locks up every time i try to look at it. thanks, Quinlanfan2 20:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry but if you need to ask that question, your request is likely to fail. Admins are expected to have made 1000s of contributions to key articles, participate in policy discussions and have a full knowledge of the process etc.-- Z leitzen (talk)  14:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Germanic culture
Hi, thanks for your note on the talk page. But you are wrong. Czech people are of Slavic origin and have nothing to do with Germanic culture. See Slavic peoples. Due to the historical context it might sound very offensive. So please remove it from that category.  ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 13:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey. I didn't add it, I'm trying to get it removed! We've already had to remove a load of Caribbean islands and even Brazil from the "Germanic culture" category! Now we're at Europe I thought I'd ask for more consensus.-- Z leitzen (talk)  13:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh then sorry :) I understand to your note wrongly.  ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 14:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * But, how to ?  ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 14:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Done :)  ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 14:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks.-- Z leitzen (talk)  14:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Bay of Pigs Invasion redoux
Z: made some additions to Bay of Pigs Invasion page. Hope you like them. Here are some of the additional references inserted:


 * Franqui, Carlos 1984 (foreword by G. Cabrera Infante and translated by Alfred MacAdam from Spanish 1981 version) Family portrait with Fidel. 1985 edition Random House First Vintage Books, New York. ISBN 0394726200 p. 56 Guevara ”surrenders” to Camilo during la ofensiva.  p. 123 “We lost a lot of men. This frontal attack of men against machines (the enemy tanks) had nothing to do with guerrilla war; in fact it was a Russian tactic, probably the idea of the two Soviet generals, both of Spanish origin (they fought for the Republic in the Spanish Civil War and fled to the Soviet Union to later fight in World War II. One of them was a veteran, a fox named Ciutah* (*p. 182 a.k.a. Ángel Martínez).  He was sent by the Red Army and the Party as an advisor and was the father of the new Cuban army.  He was the only person who could have taken charge of the Girón campaign.  The other Hispano-Russian general was an expert in antiguerrilla war who ran the Escambray cleanup. But the real factor in our favor at Girón was the militias: Almejeira’s column embarked on a suicide mission, they were massacred but they reached the beach.”


 * de Paz-Sánchez, Manuel 2001 Zona de Guerra, España y la revolución Cubana (1960-1962), Taller de Historia, Tenerife Gran Canaria ISBN 8479263644 pp.198-203, analyzes the career of Francisco Ciutat de Miguel (correct spelling).

El Jigue 2-21-07208.65.188.149 15:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks EJ. I am very interested in the material, however, you really need to source your additions as per WP:CITE. Where the citations are placed in the correct format. Please abide by this or we'll find that someone will come along, tear your work apart or remove it as it doesn't match the Manual of Style. There are plenty of examples, see the Che article for how to cite material in the correct format using refs etc.-- Z leitzen (talk)  16:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Z: following my training I am using what is referred to as the Harvard referencing system, a book is cited in the text in parentheses, after the section, sentence, or paragraph for which the book was used as a source, using the surname of the author and the year of publication only, with the parentheses closing before the period, as in (Author 2005). A complete citation is then placed at the end of the text in an alphabetized list of "References".

Intelligent design
Hey there! Hate to be a bother, but would you mind throwing up a tag whereever a missing source is? It'd make sure everything got cited up faster. Adam Cuerden talk 04:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks! It's much easier to cite things up when others point it out: If you do it yourself, next thing you know you've gotten paranoid and added sixty-seven references to one paragraph, but missed that huge expanse of uncited work three sections lower =) Adam Cuerden talk 04:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi. One thing I noticed, having read the article in more detail, is that it is very dense in patches. Particuarly lower down the page. Others like me who know next to nothing about the topic - or the controversy - may find it difficult to follow. And it does tend to read like a defensive argument against "Intelligent design", when I'm still not entirely sure what Intelligent design is. I could have done with more quotes from proponents as to what they believe and why. However, my only concern in relation to FAC was those handful of citations. Once they've been addressed I'll change to support. -- Z leitzen (talk)  04:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * But that's half the problem - no one knows what intelligent design is...that's part of the strategy behind it. Guettarda 06:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * ...That was fast. I just set down to cite anything left, and found all the tags had been cited already (with the exception of one or two where it was pointed out the cite was in the sentence, e.g. one where an interwiki link to the relevant section of Kitzmiller was given instead. Any other places? Adam Cuerden talk 07:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Meat for thought
Z: that source is more than that, the "libreta" the ration book only allows beef twice a year (if a person can find it) in Cuba almost all cattle are property of government and slaughtering cattle is forbidden even if a guajiro is lucky enough to own one. This leads to ludicrous and cruel matters such as pushing a cow over a cliff, followed by an official investigation, and confiscation of the meat by local authorities. The problem is such, although "common knowledge" on the Island it is difficult to get data in a closed society. Let me see if I can find a reference more to your taste. El Jigue 2-22-07208.65.188.149 18:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Eaton, Tracey 2004 (accessed 2-22-07_Drought and slaughter hurt Cuba's once-rich beef, milk industries. The Kansas City Star July 08, 2004 “That's because a person can get more jail time for killing a cow than killing a human, under Cuban law. Cow killers can get four to 10 years in prison under a toughened crime law adopted in January. Those who transport or sell the meat from an illegally slaughtered cow can get three to eight years. Providing beef at an unauthorized restaurant or workplace can fetch two to five years. And buying contraband beef is punishable by three months to one year in jail or a steep fine. Authorities also have the power to confiscate all or part of the property of anyone involved in black-market cattle dealings.”

Z: Thank you somehow I missed the Cuban Cusine and Rations sections, thus I added this reference there. As to the Gott's work you that you mention, it is in my quite extensive library on Cuba. However, this book strikes me as quite biased and incomplete. In addition Gott is frequently referred to as an "Agent of Influence." El Jigue 2-22-07208.65.188.149 18:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know about "agent of influence" (I think that's a smear job) - but Gott is certainly incomplete. Massive ommissions througout. Although he is quite good on the very early period - the Taino experience etc. I use him very sparingly on later issues and only on something that is non-controversial or perhaps anti-revolution. -- Z leitzen (talk)  19:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Z: Another reference to beef rationing in Cuba is:

Goering, Laurie 2001 (accessed 1-13-07) Cuba's Jews Fight Isolation. The Baltimore Sun, August 5, 2001 *available from archives  who states:

"Jews are the only Cubans who can buy beef in government-run peso stores, a nod to religious restrictions on pork, the island's staple meat."

El Jigue 2-24=07208.65.188.149 19:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

re Fabio Grobart

 * Vivés, Juan (Translated to Spanish from 1981 Les Maîtres de Cuba. Opera Mundi, Paris by Zoraida Valcarcel) 1982 Los Amos de Cuba. EMCÉ Editores, Buenos Aires.  ISBN 9500400758.

Among other novel information this author places Fabio Grobart in Cuba in 1959 and as traveling to the Eastern block with Raul Castro p. 46. Even more intriguing it states on p. 46 that Vittorio Vidale was present in 1927 Cuba said to be one year prior to Grobart, this is at variance with other sources. And yet my reading suggests that the material is quite accurate within the influence of the circumstances of the author’s milieu. El Jigue 2-22-07 208.65.188.149 19:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Carlos Franqui
Z: did I mention?:


 * Franqui, Carlos 1984 (foreword by G. Cabrera Infante and translated by Alfred MacAdam from Spanish 1981 version) Family portrait with Fidel. 1985 edition Random House First Vintage Books, New York. ISBN 0394726200 p. 56 Guevara ”surrenders” to Camilo during la ofensiva.  p. 123 “We lost a lot of men. This frontal attack of men against machines (the enemy tanks) had nothing to do with guerrilla war; in fact it was a Russian tactic, probably the idea of the two Soviet generals, both of Spanish origin (they fought for the Republic in the Spanish Civil War and fled to the Soviet Union to later fight in World War II. One of them was a veteran, a fox named Ciutah* (*p. 182 a.k.a. Ángel Martínez).  He was sent by the Red Army and the Party as an advisor and was the father of the new Cuban army.  He was the only person who could have taken charge of the Girón campaign.  The other Hispano-Russian general was an expert in antiguerrilla war who ran the Escambray cleanup. But the real factor in our favor at Girón was the militias: Almejeira’s column embarked on a suicide mission, they were massacred but they reached the beach.”

and did I also call to your attention?:


 * de Paz-Sánchez, Manuel 2001 Zona de Guerra, España y la revolución Cubana (1960-1962), Taller de Historia, Tenerife Gran Canaria ISBN 8479263644 pp.198-203, analyzes the career of Francisco Ciutat de Miguel (correct spelling).

In Franqui's book "The Twelve" he reports Universo Sanchez's statement that they used "vitamin" pills aboard the Granma. Now vitamin pills do not have enough mass to provide caloric content, and thus, they were probably amphetamines, (I heard an account by a participant of the Bay of Pigs landing that they also used the same stimulant, Efiginio Almeijeras use of such was legendary, and accounts of Castro's use as a student seem to come to mind). Were this true this could explain the unnecessary confusion during the Granma landing. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Cuba is going to absolute lockdown
The current expulsion of Gary Marx, Chicago Tribune reporter in Cuba since 2002 can be taken to suggest that Raul Castro, facing internal resistance, is taking the country into absolute  lockdown. Things may happen fast from now on. El Jigue 2-22-07208.65.188.149 21:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * If they do that to several reporters it is significant. To one, it's not that unusual. The article indicates that he was planning to leave in the summer anyway - the government may have decided they didn't want him feeling that with his impending departure he could be more forthright than usual. -- Beardo 03:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Beardo: Perhaps you are correct, but this is an unwise move Marx will merely report far more frankly on his return, and whatever he does soon Raul will be in the "dust bin of history." El Jigue 2-22-07208.65.188.149 05:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Beardo: unfortunately it seems that the expulsion of journalists is spreading, the count is three now. It really looks as if Raul is preparing for increased repression; and does not wish tohave witnesses. el Jigue 2-23-07 208.65.188.149 16:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It certainly looks like a pattern, though I think you can only claim "absolute lockdown" when they stop people posting to Wikipedia ! -- Beardo 05:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Mantelpiece
Pretty impressive - thanks. -- Beardo 03:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

PS I am sure that we could get some useful stuff from this article on US-Cuba relations - http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070101faessay86104/julia-e-sweig/fidel-s-final-victory.html?

Dunno Sweig is an admirer....El Jigue 2-22-07 208.65.188.149 05:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Bay of Pigs Invasion
Thank you, wonder why this article is attracting so much attention from vandals, must be just the luck of the draw. El Jigue 2-24-07208.65.188.149 19:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Over-eager search-and-replace
I think your bot/script to assess articles might be a bit over-zealous, it's capitalizing "Low" on talk pages, even when in a subset of a word. ("fLow", "folLow", etc.) See this link. JRP 04:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops. Thanks for the tip Jrp.-- Z leitzen (talk)  04:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Moncada, Granma survivor and political prisoner dies
Thirty years to the date of his imprisonment, he was released and reunited with his four sisters in Miami.Bustos, Sergio 2007 (accessed 2-25-07) Cuban political prisoner dies (Mario Chanes de Armas) Miami Herald, Sun, Feb. 25, 2007 “Considered one of the founders of the Revolution, Chanes de Armas survived the Moncada attack, trained in Mexico, came over on the yacht Gramma and lived to greet Castro in Havana on Jan. 9, 1959, when the conquering heroes arrived on top of a U.S. Sherman tank. … Thirty years to the date of his imprisonment, he was released and reunited with his four sisters in Miami.” El Jigue 2-25-07208.65.188.149 00:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi EJ. Perhaps an article is required? What do you think?-- Z leitzen (talk)  00:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Z:

I thinks so there already is an article on Gustavo Arcos, who led a quite parallel life. By the way there is grudging recognition of the Escambray Rebellion against Castro in several places of the Cuban governments Escambray series e.g. ("Osvaldo Ramírez: oficial del Ejército Rebelde, quien más tarde traicionó y se convirtió en el jefe de la banda que asesinó a Conrado Benítez en el Escambray"); thus, in view of all the material available from exile sources, it might be appropriated to also have, an article on Osvaldo Ramírez, In another section of this series there is a note attaching the label (Traidor)to a reference to Jaime Vega who led the third column into the middle provinces in 1958. El Jigue 2-27-07208.65.188.149 21:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Z: See
 * Staff of Escambray circa 1988 to 2007 (accessed 2-27-07) Che entre nosotros. Supplement to Escambray http://www.escambray.cu/che/indice.html The critical role of escopeteros is even repeatedly mentioned in historical hagiographies on the Che. And yet out of Cuba, Guevara unlike Raul Castro, never seemed to recognize the essential role of these poorly armed auxiliaries.

Here are extracts from that source that readily support this:

“Además de estos dos grupos armados, en la zona en la que habría de operar el Che existía un destacamento de escopeteros del Movimiento 26 de Julio dirigido por el Comandante Víctor Bordón que se había alzado definitivamente tras los sucesos de abril.” “El 7 de noviembre el Che se dirigió por escrito a la dirección del Directorio Revolucionario señalando que las relaciones con el segundo Frente habían hecho crisis, por lo tanto no había posibilidad de acuerdo con ellos, lo cual “abría la vía de entendimiento con el Directorio”. En la misma nota informaba de la actitud unitaria del PSP que había puesto a disposición de la comandancia del 26 en Las Villas su organización en el llano y la guerrilla de escopeteros, que se mantenía activa en la zona de operaciones de Camilo, y pedía a Chomón que fijara cita para celebrar “conversaciones concretas”. El día 13, el Directorio contestaba formalmente aceptando iniciar las conversaciones y días más tarde estas se produjeron en La Gloria.” “El grupo de unos 40 escopeteros es sorprendido y cercado por fuerzas del ejército que matan a tres de sus integrantes. En el lugar conocido por Nuevo Mundo se reúnen para proseguir la lucha (This is on the Cauto Plains below and north of the Sierra Maestra and may well be the events described by Massetti Sr. in his book). Allí piden voluntarios con destino a la escuela de reclutas de Minas de Frío y el bisoño de la zona de Guasimal da el paso al frente.” Camilo bluffs “Camilo: “ ... En cuanto al problema ese de Santa Clara, Ok, muy bien, vamos a trazar planes para más adelante, para hacerlo en comunidad, yo quiero repartirme esa gloria contigo, así es que yo no soy ambicioso. Te voy a dar un chancecito en el anillo de hierro ese, pues vamos a poner 7 mil escopeteros al ataque. Esos escopeteros están locos por entrar en acción y en estos días han desarmado a todos los soldados en los centrales, en las tropas; es una cosa espantosa lo que hacen los muchachos por conseguir fusiles...”” However, the Batista army forces believe this e.g. “El Che por poco lo suena en Güinía de Miranda. "El ordenó el alto al fuego, pero yo estaba encendi'o contra los guardias porque nos gritaban escopeteros y una pila de palabrotas más, y seguí tirando de abajo de una alcantarilla. Al lado mío se encontraba Joel Iglesias, y cuando de reojo vi que el Che venía como una bala para arriba de nosotros hice así y salí echando, y él le dijo a Joel: '¡No te dije que alto al fuego!', y le metió dos chuchazos por el lomo. 'Fue Lázaro', le dijo Joel, pero ya yo estaba perdido y él tenía los dos palos sona'os. "”

El Jigue 2-27-07208.65.188.149 00:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Great work EJ. That is the source we need for the Escopeteros page. Will look into it in more detail at some point in the future. At present I am trying to limit myself to administrative tasks involving the 1,256 pages that are part of the Cuba project, so we have some consistency of format and good access around the site etc. Also, good sourcing on the Che page using the system - well done.-- Z leitzen (talk)  02:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

This point has been made by a number of others previously e.g. Prieres, Manuel (accessed 2-28-07) ¡Pioneros por el comunismo, seremos como El Che! Guaracabuya El Jigue 2-28-07208.65.188.149 20:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Death of the escopeteros de Contramaestre
This is the Massetti cite I referred to previously, whih does not seem to refer to the same incident:

Masetti, Jorge Ricardo 2005 (first accessed 6-17-06) Los que luchan y los que lloran. Equipo de Investigaciones 'Rodolfo Walsh' Published in digital form June 8, 2005 http://www.rodolfowalsh.org/article.php3?id_article=839


 * “El automóvil avanzaba balanceándose sobre la tierra blanda, hasta que se detuvo lentamente. El guía descendió, y lanzó una especie de chistido, como un beso a lo lejos. Enseguida tuvo contestación y de inmediato vi a los primeros “alzados”. Tres muchachos que estaban ocultos en la manigua abandonaron su posición y nos escoltaron cuando el coche siguió su camino. Estaban barbudos y la melena les llegaba hasta los hombros. Entre las camisas de los tres reunirían cuatro botones y los pantalones estaban pesados de barro y grasa. Uno llevaba un enorme revólver en la cintura y los otros dos estaban armados con escopetas de caza antiquísimas. El más pertrechado llevaba una canana de lona con tres cartuchos. Al notar cómo los observaba, el chofer aclaró:

Estos son los escopeteros, se quedan haciendo emboscadas cerca de la carretera, para poder conseguir un arma buena. Después se van a incorporar a las tropas rebeldes. En cinco minutos de marcha lentísima llegamos al campamento. De un bohío aparentemente desierto surgieron unos veinte hombres. En su mayoría jóvenes y en su mayoría tan desastrosamente armados y vestidos como los que nos escoltaban. Todos me saludaron con efusión.

¿Argentino?

¿Usted es el hermano del Che?

Oye, chico, que has llegado de lejos... Los que habían venido conmigo en el auto, comenzaron a levantar la tapa que ocultaba mis botas, la grabadora y la cámara y los rollos fotográficos. Había arribado a la primera etapa. Se despidieron de mí con un apretón de manos. El que me condujo desde Santiago me sonrió:

Ahora vamos a ver si tengo la misma suerte que para venir. Sería una muerte poco heroica el que me atraviesen a tiros estos escopeteros... Yo respondí con otra sonrisa y un “Chau, che”, que provocó la risa general. El agente que habíamos recogido en Contramaestre, me recomendó desde el auto:

Si ve a mi hijo, déle un abrazo. No sé si está con Fidel o con la tropa de Camilo... El coche se fue alejando con la misma lentitud que había llegado, esquivando las ramas bajas de los cafetos. Y yo me quedé parado entre el grupo de escopeteros curiosos y risueños. Un teniente con ropas de guajiro me invitó a pasar al interior del bohío…. No imaginaba que una semana después, un batallón batistiano iba a exterminar a los “escopeteros” con los que había charlado en las cercanías de Contramaestre, porque no tuvieron armas para defenderse” Once I walked near the Contramaestre River as an escopetero and believe me it was a relatively open area and thus scary. El Jigue 2-28-07208.65.188.149 20:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Procastro editing underguise of removing vandalism
In the Cuba article under cover of limiting vandalism, procastro editing continues. Deletions include: Education section "However, access to higher education apparently requires party membership since such is "a de facto prerequisite for high-level official positions and professional advancement in most areas.""

Requested references in History section were also deleted:

However, it is thought that, as in much of Latin America, the country's aboriginal heritage survives in part via the rise of a significant Mestizo population - El Jigue 2-28-07208.65.188.149 19:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Z: Agree with suggestions, however, as is my thesis such corrections will not stand for long (:>). BTW I inserted the following added discussion "Z: thank you sounds good...even if I find it odd that Gott would go against official Cuban government line. Two items struck me  (1), the end of the last sentence of the second lead paragraph "and its location between water bodies also make Cuba prone to frequent hurricanes." seems to be taken from an extremely bad translation of a Cuban geography text (see modified text in article now removed "The island has a tropical climate that is moderated by the surrounding waters; however, the warm temperatures of the Caribbean Sea and its location which almost completely blocks access to the Gulf of Mexico make Cuba prone to frequent (passage of) hurricanes.")   (2) Moderated the pro-Cuban government claims of free access to education with the following (However, access to higher education apparently requires party membership since such is "a de facto prerequisite for high-level official positions and professional advancement in most areas.". In addition requirements for part time child labor weaken  the Cuban Government's claim of free education for all). El Jigue 3-6-07208.65.188.149 15:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)"

Request Protection
If the problem is becoming to difficult to handle you might want to ask for page protection at Requests for page protection. Not much I can do if there is not outright vandalism or personal attacks.--Jersey Devil 05:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

portals
So, TT next? Guettarda 17:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Re:MagicKirin Sockpuppet
Not very sure about this one but I fixed you checkuser request anyway. I agree this user has a similar pov but not as many typos as usual for MagicKirin. JRSP 22:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You were right, sock is already blocked. JRSP 13:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for the barnstar!
Cheers Zleitzen! Much appreciated! SGGH 17:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Article on "Che"
Why do you belive that it is necessary for "Argentine-Born" to be linked to argentina in the article on Che? I reviewed it and determined that a. Being Argentine-born should not neccesarily be linked to the Argentina page b. there are 5 Blue words in a row for that section, this looks just plain bad and I have also realized that there are far too many blue words in the article as a whole.

Please give my suggestions some thought 71.210.125.55 03:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: MagicKirin Sockpuppet
Took me awhile, but finally getting around the replying. Two checkuser blocks later, I see we're still not finished with this whole affair. Guy doesn't take a hint, does he? You may get some use out of User:Luna Santin/Sockwatch/Decato (if you see pages that should be added to the list, feel free, although some like GwB I'm leaving out on purpose, since I know it'll flood the recent changes). Glad to have been of service, even belated service. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. – Luna Santin  (talk) 04:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

One party Socialist state?
Although we all know that Cuba is considered "communist" by most westerners, the Cuban government following marxist dogma claims that a communist society has not been achieved. This is a religious concept in other context it could be called heaven on earth. Of course this is nonsense, however it seems insulting to multiparty democratic socialist countries to call Cuba a socialist state. Arguments on this matter are equivalent to calculating the number of angels who can dance on the head of pin (by my calculations infinity since angels occupy no space, and I am not a Baptists so I believe angeles if they exist can dance). Thus I modified socialist to one party socialist state. What modifier do you prefer. Authoritarian, rigid, controlled, while far more fitting are only going to cause trouble. My preference would be socialist absolute monarchy (>). El Jigue 3-6-07208.65.188.149 23:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Z: If the word socialist, a word with many meanings, is deemed the appropriate word to describe the government of Cuba then there is need to alert the naive reader by some means or other that Cuba is a one party totalitarian system. El Jigue 3-7-07208.65.188.149 18:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity and popular nomenclature
Z: Perhaps the problem of delition of indigenous roots is in part rooted in the usage of the word "Mestizo" this word is mainly continental, in Cuba the word "Indio" or "Siboney" (note the S) is usually used. Thus, Mestizo is not commonly applied in Cuba or Puerto Rico for that matter (note the character Indio in "Westside Story.)" For instance the indigenous members of "El Regimiento de Guantanamo", or Mambi General Jesus Rabi are called "Indio." Unfortunately there is a tendency among some non-Cuban historians to refer to "Indios" as "Black". Indio, in Cuba. is generally applied to an individual with dark complexion but straight hair (perhaps derived from the ethnic mix in the Palenques of the Cimarron). Another problem is an apparent confusion between genetic inheritance and acceptance of European derived culture, this seems to make all the difference in places such as Guatemala where "Ladino" (a word used in other contexts to describe Jewish descent, and the Sephardic version of Spanish; or in yet still another context to mean thief) is used to characterize a European style culture (as opposed to the Mayan traditionalist "Indio)." El Jigue 3-7-07208.65.188.149 14:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Infoboxes
Hello my fellow WikiProject Cuba colleague! New infobox for administrative subdivisions is available and I am planning to implement it on Provinces of Cuba. Would you like to help me with adding it ? You can see new infobox in use e.g. in Midtjylland article. P.S. Only negative thing is that a clickable map of Cuban provinces can't be implemented to the infobox. - Darwinek 21:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Continued efforts on the Mozambican War of Independence

 * Brilliantly helpful work that is continuing! If it makes FA you will have a big chunk of the credit :) SGGH 11:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, it wouldn't have happened without your work. How long does it take for discussion to become decision? Or is there not a set time? SGGH 13:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello SGGH. There isn't a set time. Though unless activity continues whilst issues remain, then it does eventually come off the list. But I think only a few more scans of the article to check for any anomalies should suffice. Raul tends to promote articles once a week so there may be a few days, unless further opposes are lodged.-- Z leitzen (talk)  13:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Mozambican War of Independence
Hey Joe. Here's an invitation to take a look at this article we're tweaking for featured article status. It's one of those articles that hopefully addresses your systemic bias concerns back in 2004. We're nearly there on this article I think! So take a look if it catches your fancy.-- Z leitzen (talk)  14:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I did what I believe was a fairly good copy edit. I also raised some issues both on the talk page and in HTML comments in line. - Jmabel | Talk 17:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Re:congrats
thanks for the congrats, make sure you take some of the credit yourself, wouldn't have been FA without your work, and if you were referring to widening my talk page then please feel free, considering I'm pretty sure I stole the design from your page :D SGGH 16:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Fascism and Nazism as representative forms of socialism
I am sorry to bother you again, but I really need some help. There is an ongoing campaign by a few editors to portray Fascism and Nazism as representative forms of socialism. As part of this effort (a debate that stretches back to 2004), there are a tiny handful of editors who revert and redirect National Socialism to Nazism. I believe a majority of editors support redirecting National Socialism to National Socialism (disambiguation). I realize we just had a poll on the Nazism page where I thought this issue was settled, but apparently the struggle is not over. Please consider voting in the new poll, or adding a comment at: Talk:Nazism. Also consider notifying other editors with an interest in this matter. I am doing the best I can, but need assistance. Thanks.--Cberlet 17:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Raul Castro, Ernesto Guevara and Camilo Cienfuegos' views on escopeteros
Raul Castro recognizes the presence of escopeteros in his Diario de Campa~na. He divides escopeteros into two categories: (1)"escopeteros por la libre" and (2) "escopeteros" under the control of the Castro comandancias. During the "opening" of La Segunda Frente Raul admits the prior presence of "500" escopeteros in the area and talks about executing some he accuses of banditry. Then and this is the surprising thing he incorporates the rest into his own forces. This generates the largest group of anti-Batista guerrillas in existence at that time.

Guevara's approach is far more self serving, he accuses the escopeteros of crimes and executes a good number of them (see Jon Anderson). This action drastically decreases the resistance to Batista in the Sierra Maestra zone ("Primera Frente"). The credit for the military actions of these guerrillas is then assumed by Guevara. For instance at the second action at Hombrito, much of the credit goes to El Mejicano (Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo) but this is not mentioned. Anderson refers only to Guevara pardoning of Rodriguez Tamayo. Of course later one finds on the web reports of the defection of Rodriguez Tamayo who had been sent to Miami to kill Rolando Masferrer, leaving one with puzzling thought that if Rodriguez Tamayo was considered such a skilled assassin (he is also reported by Cuban government sources as involved in the JFK assassination), what did he do to earn that reputation, become second in command of Universo Sanchez's forces, and then be completely written out of Cuban government official histories.

Camilo Cienfuego's first Llanos campaign's success is readily attributed to support of Orlando Lara Batista group (Los Muchachos de Lara). Cienfuegos, a more generous soul, readily admits this support, and after Lara Batista is wounded the support of the July 26 Movement towards the central provinces by the Muchachos de Lara is also recognized. However, Orlando Lara Batista did something to offend the powers that be and sometimes in official Cuban sources there are hints of such. El Jigue 1-11-07 00:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Havana's international book fair
00:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC) Thanks for your contributions to the Havana's book fair page. I hope that you can dedicate few more minutes to enlarge that poor content that I launch. Thanks again... and regards from  Z o r p h Dark  &lt;talk&gt;

Felipe Pazos
(not for insertion because it is complete source)

Z: Re article on Felipe Pazos (sometimes Felipe Pasos) ran across this item

Lewis, Paul 2001 (accessed 3-17-07) Felipe Pazos, Economist Who Split With Castro, Dies at 88. The New York Times. March 9, 2001from CubaNet http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/mar01/09e7.htm

CUBANET ... CUBANEWS

March 9, 2001

Felipe Pazos, Economist Who Split With Castro, Dies at 88

By Paul Lewis. The New York Times. March 9, 2001

Felipe Pazos, a Cuban economist who initially supported Fidel Castro because he said he believed that he would restore democracy but broke with him in 1959, died on Feb. 26 in exile at Puerto Ordaz, Venezuela. He was 88.

In February 1957, Dr. Pazos and his son Xavier arranged for a correspondent from The New York Times, Herbert L. Matthews, to interview and photograph Mr. Castro and his guerrillas at their hideaway in the southern Sierra Maestra.

The interviews belied the contentions by the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista that Mr. Castro had been killed and propelled him and his revolutionaries into the international limelight.

In July 1957, Dr. Pazos met Mr. Castro in the mountains. With Raúl Chibas, another Batista opponent, they issued a manifesto intended to reassure the middle classes about the revolutionaries' intentions.

The revolutionaries committed themselves to "the fine ideal of a Cuba free, democratic and just," pledging to restore the democratic Constitution of 1940 that had been abrogated after the Batista coup in 1952.

They promised a free press and free elections in all unions. Uncultivated land was to be redistributed among landless peasants.

Immediately after the manifesto, Dr. Pazos and his family were forced to flee the country.

When Mr. Castro seized power two years later, Dr. Pazos was reappointed president of the Banco Nacional de Cuba, Cuba's central bank, which he had headed in the early 50's, resigning after Batista took over.

But the two quickly fell out, with Dr. Pazos increasingly disillusioned by Mr. Castro's confrontational attitude toward the United States, his failure to make good on his pledge to restore democracy and the growing power of Communists.

Accompanying Mr. Castro on a visit to the United States in April 1959, Dr. Pazos was annoyed at being forbidden to discuss economic aid for Cuba.

In October, he was further disillusioned by the arrest and imprisonment for treason of Maj. Hubert Matos, the former military governor of Camagüey and a leading anti-Communist in the army.

Later that month, when the former air force commander, Díaz Lanz, flew a B-25 bomber from Florida over Havana to drop anti- Castro leaflets, Mr. Castro denounced the United States for complicity in the raid.

On Oct. 23, 1959, Dr. Pazos told President Osvaldo Dorticós that he wanted to resign, saying Mr. Castro had overreacted to the raid and that if Major Matos had been arrested for opposing Communism, he should be, too.

"He realized then that the revolution would be taken over by the Communists and the 1940 Constitution would never be restored as Castro had promised," said Ernesto Betancourt, another former Castro supporter who also fell out with Mr. Castro and went into exile.

Mr. Castro's brother Raúl proposed executing Dr. Pazos and Major Matos immediately.

But Dr. Pazos was eventually allowed to leave the country, and his Central Bank position was taken by Che Guevara.

Dr. Pazos was born in 1912 in Havana. He earned a doctorate from the University of Havana in 1938, joined the Cuban foreign service and in 1944 attended the Bretton Woods conference that created the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.

He was on the I.M.F. staff from 1946 until 1949, when he returned to Havana to work on the creation of the central bank there, working as president from 1950 until 1952.

After leaving Cuba, he worked on the Alliance for Progress and then for the Inter-American Development Bank, until his retirement in 1975, when he moved to Venezuela.

His best known publications were "Economic Development of Latin America" (1961) and "Chronic Inflation in Latin America" (1972).

His wife, the former Fara Vea, died in 1982. His son Xavier, who played the boy in the film of "The Old Man and the Sea," is an engineer in Venezuela. Another son and a daughter also survive.

Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company |

p.s Re African Wars, the new monument to the war dead in South Africa carries of circa 5,0000 names of the Cubans (including some women), however, apparently not the names of those killed fighting with the South African forces, some sumize that the reason for this would show (by the low number of South African dead) the one sidedness of the casualities. Shades of Ramses III (>) El Jigue 3-17-07208.65.188.149 13:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 00:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Raul Castro de facto governor of Cuba
Perhaps by August 2007 or so, if he is still in power, Raul Castro should be considered de facto ruler, governor (or whatever) of Cuba. El Jigue 3-18-07208.65.188.149 19:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe so EJ. It seems possible that Raul will deliberately attempt to keep Fidel out of power in order to push forward his people and own plans. And its hard to know if that is a good thing or a bad thing. -- Z leitzen (talk)  19:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Z: I agree since, itf Raul's record is any guide it will be worse. However he may find it expediente to loosen the reins slightly to stay in power. El Jigue 3-18-07208.65.188.149 21:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Some references promised previously

Food has been rationed in Cuba since 1962. However, food exports of food and related materials from the U.S to Cuba were valued at $ (US)3,400,000,000 in 2006.

Hemingway and the Shot
In response, although I know that Larry Daley the author of that piece has read Hemingway extensively there is no claim to that he has expertise Hemingway literature (he is professor emeritus at Oregon State University . However, with respect to Cuba that is a completely different kettle of fish, for Larry Daley a descendent of Major General Calixto Garcia has written extensively on Cuban history and is veteran of the War Against Batista in the Sierra Maestra.

In addition readers should know that Manolo Castro is widely believed to have been murdered by Fidel Castro (the two Castros were not related), Manolo or more correctly Manuel Castro was Minister of Sports in Cuba (in a democratically elected and non-Batista influenced administration) and was such a close friend of Hemingway, that he permitted the E.H. to referee an important boxing match in the old Palacio de los Deportes (which is where the so called Plaza de la Revolucion (originally built by the Dictator Batista as La Plaza Civica, and precisely where the statue to General Garcia stands today).  Manolo Castro was known to have been very honest that is why Hemingway (in "The Shot") mentions he had but a few coins in his pocket when he was killed.

Batista in his second dictatorship, then built a second Palacio de los Deportes, where among other events Daley was held prisoner by Castro, along with some of the 300,000 Cubans that were arrested during the Bay of Pigs invasion. BTW Daley does not criticize "Jeffrey Meyers for claiming that the estate was confiscated after Hemingway's death" but agrees with Meyers. Daley also does not allege that Hemingway's suicide is caused singly by the loss of La Vigia. One should also take into account Hemingway’s reporting during the Spanish Civil War, when he was friends with Herbert Matthews and broke friendship with John Dos Passos, to understand the full disillusionment that Hemingway felt at that time. The FBI’s interest in Hemingway was caused by his relationships with Spanish Civil War exiles/veterans who were involved with him during WWII; and had suddenly reappeared when Castro gained power; among them were Enrique Lister, who Hemingway makes allusion to in “For Whom the Bell Tolls.” Also reappearing at that time in Cuba were the Italian assassin and Senator Vittorio Vitale (Comandante Contreras in Spain), Alberto Bayo, and Francisco Ciutat de Miguel; some or all of these were known to Hemingway for the murderous killers they were. Thus it is suggested that that before any decision is made to remove this mention again, that the Daley piece which contains an annotated version of all pertinent parts of "The Shot" be read. One should also note that this view of “The Shot” (as noted in the Daley piece) is not original to Daley but to a number others before him.

Thus I have inserted:

The official Cuban government account is that it was left to the Cuban government, which has made it into a museum devoted to the author. This would make the Hemingway property unique among all other US property confiscated at that time. Joel Millman in The Wall Street Journal estimates that that “Castro regime today takes in at least $500,000 a year through the franchise…”. An infrequently discussed story: Hemingway, Ernest 1951 The Shot. True the men’s magazine. April 1951. pp. 25-28 has been long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway, very strongly suggests that Hemingway, used an unnamed character as a “Black-face beard” to narrate the 1948 murder of his friend “Manolo” Castro by Fidel Castro.

I suggest that critics read the “The shot” before eliminating this topic; and then rather than removing to contribute other citations to this effect. El Jigue208.65.188.149 18:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Z: Thank you it is almost "workable" by now El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello EJ, I was editing a created list of articles that linked to the Cuba page on the Auto-wiki browser and wasn't aware that you were presently editing the article. I spotted a link to a blog, and removed it alongside the accompanying material, not aware that you had written it. Unfortunately all editors and administrators will do the same as it contravenes the policy of WP:ATT, which states that blogs are not acceptable sources. This is natural, as without the clause, anyone could create a blog and source controversial material to it. By the way, I've read some of Larry Daley's prolific writings on the internet, but didn't know that he was a descendent of Major General Calixto Garcia! Though as you wrote yourself on that article, "Hundreds, if not thousands, of Cubans principally in the Cuban city of Holguín and in Florida often to the dismay of some Floridians without links to Cuba, claim him as ancestor." But then that fact is sourced to an article which doesn't mention Calixto Garcia at all, so you've left me totally confused.-- Z leitzen (talk)  09:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

United States embargo against Cuba
These citations were inserted in United States embargo against Cuba. Still if the present point of view of that site is any guide these citations will not be there for long. I guess by Tuesday they will be gone. (:>)El Jigue 3-18-07208.65.188.149 22:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)