User talk:Zoticogrillo/torture memos

First comments
I replaced some words in the lede as an indication of how to render a more neutral version. The word torture is fulminate of mercury, which will detonate at the mere glance of certain editors. So it is prudent simply to state the acts themselves straightforwardly, and reserve conclusions about whether they amount to torture (in the lay or the legal definition) for the body of the article.ElijahBosley (talk) 20:00, 12 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I like your language. I will try to apply the spirit of that edit to the rest of the article. Zoticogrillo (talk) 19:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Further to editing: One HUGE and challenging problem is defining just which memos we are talking about. The [New York Times] lists quite a few of them, and even they don't adequately reflect more recent disclosures. It is the multiplicity of memos, together with Judge Bybee having only signed a couple--and his signature was his only contribution--that suggests to me there ought to be a Torture Memos page rather than the current very stylistically and substantively peculiar Bybee memo page. Well--I'll wait a bit too. Mention the word torture and brickbats are flung. Partisans, I note, do not believe in neutrality. They think everything including vocabulary is a weapon, and will never cede an inch of ground. And I must concede there is something to that. It has long been recognized in (real) warfare that neutrality is not neutral, in fact it favors the weaker power by giving them parity with the stronger.ElijahBosley (talk) 16:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)


 * HUGE and challenging, or just an opportunity? ;)  There is widespread misunderstanding in the media about what is referred to as the "Torture Memo(s)," and "Bybee Memo(s)." I believe that we should find examples of the most frequent use of the terms in popular media for citations for this article.  After browsing newspaper articles and editorials regarding such terms I chose the subjects of the present article.  Should that change?


 * I believe that this article should merely summarize the separate wiki articles on each of the individual memos. Zoticogrillo (talk) 19:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, also, you probably saw that all three of the memos in the currently drafted article were written on the same day, hence the other name sometimes used interchangeably with the two previously mentioned names, or the "8/1/02 Interrogation Opinion." Zoticogrillo (talk) 20:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

First response to edits
Do we know that Bybee had no hand in drafting or editing the memos? We have reason to suspect this is not the case, particularly considering the political scapegoating process.

I think it's important to recognize that these memos were drafted regarding the use of physical and mental coercion with suspected terrorists. The memos specifically state that context, and I believe it's an important characteristic of the memo. Zoticogrillo (talk) 19:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Bybee: assuming we are talking about the same memo (I am easily confused) the [Office of Professional Responsibility report] said that John Yoo and an unnamed lawyer one year out of law school did the actual drafting, Bybee just accepted what Yoo gave him. That accords with Jack Goldsmith's book the Terror Presidency which said that Bybee really knew nothing about this area of law, and left all of that up to Yoo.  It is not the full story though, because of the yet to be plumbed influence of what was called the War Council, five lawyers including Yoo who met in the White House regularly and plotted strategy.  David Addington in particular was a major influence, even though not technically an author. And of course CIA Director George Tenet, who originally asked for authority to torment prisoners, and V.P. Dick Cheney who strongly endorsed the idea. Maybe a simple chronology on the birth of the memo (assuming it is this memo) saying, Tenet asked for the authority at the National Security Council, NSC (including Condolzeeza Rice approved it,  Yoo drafted the memo over the next five months, and Bybee in his capacity of head of the Office of Legal Council signed it?


 * oic. good references.  I was referring to "standards" and "interrogation."  I think you are referring to only "standards." Zoticogrillo (talk) 22:44, 15 March 2010 (UTC)


 * As to suspected terrorists quite true. The problem being that anybody a bounty hunter pointed at and said "He's one," became a suspected terrorist. A guy who had borrowed money and didn't want to pay it back fingered his creditor; another guy stole a car and fingered the car's owner, and of course there were at least two cases of a mistake about spelling a name.   There's a chilling reference in John LeCarre to the effect that torture is worse for somebody genuinely innocent, because with nothing to reveal, the torture goes on. And on. And on. ElijahBosley (talk) 20:30, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Also, we should use the language, "necessity or self-defense" in the leading paragraph, since it is a term used throughout the documents. Zoticogrillo (talk) 22:40, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

OPR report
I revised the OPR report paragraph to bring it up to date, and make it more specific. I preserved the existing citation style, but I think citation form may need to be reviewed and regularlized throughout the article. There may be some sort of template for auto-generated citations that I have not been able to track down, the elaborate results of which are apparent in some of the cites that have } in them. I write all my footnotes by hand, and mine are comparatively simple.ElijahBosley (talk) 14:30, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

birth life and death of Torture Memos
Cut and pasting and substantially revising from the current Bybee memo page, I have put together a chronology of what happened to the memoes. My citation form is poor, as I do not have the automated citation generation software equipment that apparently the rest of the article relied on, so that needs to be fixed. I think the chronology should precede the pros and cons section. Right now here are only cons, so I will try my hand at writing a defense of the memos, based on what Tenet and Yoo have said.ElijahBosley (talk) 15:45, 24 March 2010 (UTC)


 * That's a very good idea, thank you. Zoticogrillo (talk) 23:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)